Effects of the Oaths

[Gauntlet104]

So I was re-reading Oathbringer and the mention of the Skybreakers having to wait until their third oath to use the Surge of Division stuck out to me. So far we've seen all of the other Radiants have access to all of their Surges regardless of the number of Oaths they've sworn. Is there any particular reason that the Skybreakers are different?

And also, why is it that whenever we see Kaladin swear an oath he gains a massive infusion of stormlight as we see in the end of both TWoK and WoR, but no other order seems to get this, not even Dalinar in the end of Oathbringer. Is this unique to Kaladin and the Windrunners or do other Orders get this as well?

[Thurin he/him]

I've posted a theory about your first point a while ago (and would gladly get some feedback on that):

 

[RShara she/her]

I personally think it's just because the Skybreakers are very regimented and don't allow their Squires to use Division until they have their own spren. For your second question:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What's with Kaladin being special with his oaths that he explodes with power every time he says it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That is a function of Windrunners being very close to Bondsmiths, which has certain effects.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Would other Windrunners also do that, as well?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yep.

source

It's hard to say if Dalinar did or not, since he united the Realms right then

Edited November 20, 2018 by RShara

[kaellok he/him]

4 hours ago, Gauntlet104 said:

So I was re-reading Oathbringer and the mention of the Skybreakers having to wait until their third oath to use the Surge of Division stuck out to me. So far we've seen all of the other Radiants have access to all of their Surges regardless of the number of Oaths they've sworn. Is there any particular reason that the Skybreakers are different?

And also, why is it that whenever we see Kaladin swear an oath he gains a massive infusion of stormlight as we see in the end of both TWoK and WoR, but no other order seems to get this, not even Dalinar in the end of Oathbringer. Is this unique to Kaladin and the Windrunners or do other Orders get this as well?

Because narratively, it's really cool to have happen, but if every Radiant Order had it happen, then the story would become over-saturated and dilute its awesome-factor.  I remember a previous WoB that said that it was due to one of the Surges, but either my Google-fu or memory is weak, as I can't find it anymore.

[ScavellTane]

I think its Syl thats the factor more than its him being a Windrunner. We dont see it with Teft or Lopen.

[RShara she/her]

30 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I think its Syl thats the factor more than its him being a Windrunner. We dont see it with Teft or Lopen.

We do see it with Lopen. We don't see it with Teft because we cut away just as he says them.

Quote

A sudden flash of coldness struck Lopen, and the gemstones in the room flickered, then went out. A symbol crystallized in frost on the stones around Lopen, vanishing under the cots. The ancient symbol of the Windrunners.

 

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

15 hours ago, Gauntlet104 said:

So I was re-reading Oathbringer and the mention of the Skybreakers having to wait until their third oath to use the Surge of Division stuck out to me. So far we've seen all of the other Radiants have access to all of their Surges regardless of the number of Oaths they've sworn. Is there any particular reason that the Skybreakers are different?

If I understand it correctly, they are able to use Division, but they are not allowed to use it until they have their own spren. And if we know anything about the Skybreakers, it's that they only do what they are authorized to do.

[Vissy]

Division is also one of the more destructive Surges. It sounds quite practical to ban its use before the Skybreaker is sufficiently advanced to "handle" it. Now that might be true or not true based on the individual, but erring on the safe side certainly doesn't hurt when it could mean saving a few potential recruits from doing something bad on accident.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

55 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Division is also one of the more destructive Surges. It sounds quite practical to ban its use before the Skybreaker is sufficiently advanced to "handle" it. Now that might be true or not true based on the individual, but erring on the safe side certainly doesn't hurt when it could mean saving a few potential recruits from doing something bad on accident.

To be fair, an unpracticed user of Gravitation could be very dangerous as well, just in a completely different way.

[Vissy]

Can Skybreakers make other people levitate into the sky with Gravitation? I forget

[NoiseSpren he/him]

Jeah

[Gray to he/him]

What do you mean by close to the bondsmiths? Physically close or close in that they both share a surge?

[Weltall]

4 hours ago, Vissy said:

Can Skybreakers make other people levitate into the sky with Gravitation? I forget

Yep, we see it happen with Szeth at the beginning of his training when he needs Ki to Lash him.

4 hours ago, Gray to said:

What do you mean by close to the bondsmiths? Physically close or close in that they both share a surge?

The latter. They're next door on the surgebinding chart because they share Adhesion, in the same way that Lightweavers and Elsecallers are 'close' because they share Transformation.

[Thurin he/him]

I believe that Skybreakers and Windrunners (like in Bridge Four) can be compared like this:

(I've explained this in one of my topics, I put a redirect in the second post of this topic)

 

The reason for this difference is just how the orders are built up. Bridge Four does it the 'natural' way, and the Skybreakers chose for another approach. The same things happen, but they use another terminology

[Gray to he/him]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

The latter. They're next door on the surgebinding chart because they share Adhesion, in the same way that Lightweavers and Elsecallers are 'close' because they share Transformation.

So would Stonewards get a similar boost since they share tension?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

2 minutes ago, Gray to said:

So would Stonewards get a similar boost since they share tension?

Probably so.

[Weltall]

When looking through Oathbringer for some exact words I noticed that when Szeth swears his Third Ideal, he notes that snow crystalizes in the air around him briefly and he gets a sense of approval from his spren. This is similar to but less dramatic than the explosion of light and frost that Kaladin and Lopen exhibit, which fits the idea that his order is relatively close to the Bondsmiths (though not to the point of sharing a Surge directly).and so has an accompanying visual effect even if it isn't as pronounced.

3 hours ago, Thurin said:

You seem to be treating 'Squire' as a separate category independent of the Ideals but that's not how it's been seen to work for these Orders. Bridge Four had already said (or at least heard and internalized) the First Ideal before any of them started manifesting Surgebinding through their connection to Kaladin. In Oathbringer we see that anyone who tries to become a Squire says the First Ideal as a precondition. In other words, you say the First Ideal and then you become a Squire, at which point you may attract a spren of your own, form a Nahel Bond and then go on to say the remaining Ideals. Skybreaker initiates say the First Ideal, then impress a Skybreaker to be chosen as a Squire at which point they also say the Second Ideal and gain access to Surgebinding. The Third Ideal and one's own Nahel Bond then go together as well. Basically, the Skybreakers just move things down one step, though they still get Blade and (presumably) Plate at the same points as Windrunners.

Skybreakers don't so much get 'promoted' to the Third Ideal instantly as it is that this point is when they start progressing more like the Windrunners. They've already sworn two Ideals by that point and it's the swearing of and acting in accordance with the Second that attracts the spren they'll eventually bond/ This happens before they swear the Third Ideal though, read when Szeth swears his and it's clear he'd already been bonded to a highspren before he says the words. That the Skybreakers seem to have more control over the process of people becoming Squires is likely a side effect of how they're focused on the concepts of law and legal authority.

[Gasper he/him]

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

The latter. They're next door on the surgebinding chart because they share Adhesion, in the same way that Lightweavers and Elsecallers are 'close' because they share Transformation.

I think it is more than that. While we see the Bondsmith currently leading the Radiants, I think it was more often the Windrunner's job to run the Radiants. They are the radiants of leadership after all. I think the Bondsmith was more like the mouth piece of the god spren and also the main diplomat of the radiants, the person who could bring people together and prevent the dissolution of the radiants, which I think is one of the reasons the Radiants fell apart.

 

13 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

If I understand it correctly, they are able to use Division, but they are not allowed to use it until they have their own spren. And if we know anything about the Skybreakers, it's that they only do what they are authorized to do.

 

11 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

To be fair, an unpracticed user of Gravitation could be very dangerous as well, just in a completely different way.

Gravitation: some unlucky truthwatcher goes splat next to the Oathgate. The truthwatcher spends a week in recovery, dealing with his new found fear of not missing the ground.

Division: a building is turned to powder in the middle of a highstorm. 300 people die.

That is the difference. Sure, gravitation is dangerous, but it has a much safer learning curve and is less likely to destroy things. Division is very dangerous. Giving division to the wrong recruit would be like giving an angry chimp a bucket of hand grenades with the pins pulled. Which is distinctly more dangerous less fun than a barrel of monkeys or a room filled with hungry whitespines.

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, Gasper said:

I think it is more than that. While we see the Bondsmith currently leading the Radiants, I think it was more often the Windrunner's job to run the Radiants. 

I very much doubt that, because we know that the Windrunners often had conflicts with the other Orders, whose philiosophies contradicted theirs. That would preclude them from overall leadership. It was the Bondsmiths job to keep all the different Orders together and pointed more or less in the same direction, and judging from the epigraphs it was not easy.

On 20. November 2018 at 0:13 AM, Gauntlet104 said:

So I was re-reading Oathbringer and the mention of the Skybreakers having to wait until their third oath to use the Surge of Division stuck out to me. So far we've seen all of the other Radiants have access to all of their Surges regardless of the number of Oaths they've sworn. Is there any particular reason that the Skybreakers are different?

From what I understand, the Skybreakers usually remain squires until swearing the Third Ideal or shortly prior to it. And we don't really know yet how squires usually work - Windrunners are an exception there rather than the rule, because their resonance is "strength of the squires" - which means that they have many more of them than the other Orders, but also that the Windrunner squires are "stronger" in some way. Which is why it is entirely possible that all the other squires only have access to  _one_ surge of their patron knight, rather than both of them. So, Skybreaker squires would only have Gravitation until they bond a spren of their own, Edgedancer ones only Abrasion, Lightweaver squires only Illumination and so on.