Possible Future Developments for Renarin/Adolin

[Chrono]

It wasn't just the duel. Kaladin has been disrespectful for a long time. Speaking when it wasn't his place, leaving the room without paying respect to the king (Adolin noted that after Szeth's assassination attempt), being overall not caring for the court etiquette. I was surprised Dalinar tolerated him that long, let alone Elhokar. Kaladin did something brave and amazing in WoK, that doesn't excuse him of all sorts of behavior. He was really pushing it too far.

 

 

This. Just this. Kaladin's occupation, as a bodyguard, is to protect his charges. It is an expected part of the job that the bodyguard remains as inconspicuous and unintrusive to his charges as possible. Kaladin doesn't just fail at that, he blatantly ignores it and speaks whenever he wants. Dalinar must like him and trust him a LOT, because otherwise, he would have just fired him. 

 

Now, you can argue that Kaladin has done a bunch of heroic stuff, and I won't disagree with you. In fact, I don't like how he was treated at all. But the fact that Kaladin (to the eyes of all lighteyes present) basically took the rules and said, "Screw you," to them, is it any wonder that he was thrown in jail? As Dalinar said, he was lucky to be alive. Elhokar was at fault here certainly, but Kaladin was too.

[maxal]

It wasn't just the duel. Kaladin has been disrespectful for a long time. Speaking when it wasn't his place, leaving the room without paying respect to the king (Adolin noted that after Szeth's assassination attempt), being overall not caring for the court etiquette. I was surprised Dalinar tolerated him that long, let alone Elhokar. Kaladin did something brave and amazing in WoK, that doesn't excuse him of all sorts of behavior. He was really pushing it too far.

 

Also, the king can't just ignore some lowly darkeyed, who just publicly insulted him, despite what Adolin claimed. Can you really imagine any ruler doing that? Because I can't. Dalinar almost dueled Sadeas when he insulted Renarin, and Sadeas and Dalinar are equals, plus the insult wasn't a public one. What Kaladin did was worse in terms of etiquette.

 

It's true Elhokar could have allowed Adolin to continue and have Kaladin imprisoned, but ignoring him wasn't an option for me.

 

What you say makes sense. It is true Kaladin has been insubordinate and has shown absolutely no respect for the establish order. However, I felt he deserved a little complaisance after his huge part in this duel. He may be a bodyguard, he still did not have to jump in the arena. Nobody would have expected that of him, it was not necessary, especially for someone he clearly hates at this point in the story.

 

It is true however that his behavior was unacceptable and spending a few days in prison was a decent price to pay. I was mad Adolin did not get his chance to fight Sadeas.

 

As for Dalinar, we know his great weakness is being to trusty. He seems to disregard any warming towards inappropriate behavior or event appending betrayal from those he trusts.

[Aether]

I want to point out that Kaladin himself is no mere bodyguard, but the commander of an entire legion of spearmen-in-training.

 

While he has certainly shown insubordination, it is only natural for his position to be able to voice his insight and opinion - especially on subjects directly and indirectly pertaining to his duties.

 

... Or at least it would have been, had he not been a darkeyes.

[Aleksiel]

I want to point out that Kaladin himself is no mere bodyguard, but the commander of an entire legion of spearmen-in-training.

 

While he has certainly shown insubordination, it is only natural for his position to be able to voice his insight and opinion - especially on subjects directly and indirectly pertaining to his duties.

 

... Or at least it would have been, had he not been a darkeyes.

 

At the closed meeting with only five people Dalinar had, Kaladin was there as a bodyguard. While Dalinar listened to him. it was not Kaladin's place to interfere with the conversation. Kaladin was not invited to attend it, almost noone was invited regardless of eye color, because it wasn't the social status that earned invitation. And all other occasions he spoke when on bodyguard duty. We don't see the lighteyed captain of the king's guard suddenly giving his superiors piece of his mind.

 

Kaladin was ridiculously touchy from one point until almost the end: 'Oh no, Adolin and Shallan ignore me on their date, how dare they! Insufferable lighteyes!'. Kaladin didn't act the way a bodyguard should on many occasions when he was on bodyguards duty. And he loves throwing being darkeyes as an excuse when someone is displeased with him. Even when on the riding lessen the woman was annoyed he had no clue what distinguished male from female arts and he was like 'You are mean because of my eyes color', blah-blah. 

 

Shallan said it very well in the chasm

 

 

“I think,” she said, tucking away her own sphere for convenience, “that you’re just looking for excuses. Yes, you’ve been mistreated. I admit it. But I think you’re the one who cares about eye color, that it’s just easier for you to pretend that every lighteyes is abusing you because of your status. Have you ever asked yourself if there’s a simpler explanation? Could it be that people don’t like you, not because you’re darkeyed, but because you’re just a huge pain in the neck?”

 

 

Edit: while I understand what made Kaladin the way he is, nobody (especially not the king) is under any obligations to put up with him.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Aether]

I agree that he probably should not have spoken in that particular meeting, but I would argue that that would be the exception rather than the rule. In most of the House Kholin's meetings, Kaladin's opinion as basically a commander and captain of the House guard would be relevant to the discussion. And yes, he is insubordinate, but there would be more room for light socializing with the Kholins for the captain of the guard than for the rest of Bridge Four. He is training all of the other bodyguards to be much more discrete, but permits himself to get a bit closer to them when he himself is on duty. It would be fitting to do so, as knowing his employers lets him perform his and his subordinates' duties better, but Kaladin does highly abuse this.

[Aleksiel]

If he just allowed himself to get closer, that'd be fine. But he just did as he wished without caring for the etiquette.  It's not the actions themselves I find problematic, it's the way he acted and spoke that made it all too rude and out of place. He could have achieved the same (expressing his opinion, etc) without the attitude.

[Aether]

If he just allowed himself to get closer, that'd be fine. But he just did as he wished without caring for the etiquette.  It's not the actions themselves I find problematic, it's the way he acted and spoke that made it all too rude and out of place. He could have achieved the same (expressing his opinion, etc) without the attitude.

Then we are in agreement   

[Gabriele]

I agree he'll probably put himself in danger somehow and it would be really sweet if Renarin came to the rescue. I love this idea. However, Renarin tried to save Adolin only once... The first time, it was Dalinar he tried to save.

 

Nah, if anyone is going to save Adolin, it is Kaladin. And then

 

they will ride into the sunshine together.

 

Edited May 22, 2014 by Gabriele

[maxal]

Nah, if anyone is going to save Adolin, it is Kaladin. And then

 

they will ride into the sunshine together.

 

 

Nah Kaladin saving Adolin is getting old... I would like to see it happen the other way around.

 

 

Kaladin was ridiculously touchy from one point until almost the end: 'Oh no, Adolin and Shallan ignore me on their date, how dare they! Insufferable lighteyes!'. Kaladin didn't act the way a bodyguard should on many occasions when he was on bodyguards duty. And he loves throwing being darkeyes as an excuse when someone is displeased with him. Even when on the riding lessen the woman was annoyed he had no clue what distinguished male from female arts and he was like 'You are mean because of my eyes color', blah-blah.

 

The date is a very good example. Kaladin was being horrible there. He was the bodyguard, he was not out with friends and yet he couldn't restrain himself from interfering. Adolin was such an angel to tolerate him and worst include him in the discussion   I mean, how many guys would like to have another guy to interrupt them when their are dating a girl? None that I know. Any normal guy would have put Kaladin back at his place a long time ago.

 

It is true he uses the eye colors as an excuse for everything. He calls Adolin "arrogant", "spoiled", "insufferable", "obnoxious" and many other unflattering terms mostly because he is lighteyed. He lets such a small thing as eye color blind his judgment of people.

[Gabriele]

Maybe Adolin wasn't so very unhappy about Kaladin joining the convo. He usually spent time with his dates in the company of others - maybe also because this would preserve the girls' renown - and he has to feel his way around dealing with Shallan and being alone with her.  He was back on a more comfortable level with another person around.

[maxal]

Maybe Adolin wasn't so very unhappy about Kaladin joining the convo. He usually spent time with his dates in the company of others - maybe also because this would preserve the girls' renown - and he has to feel his way around dealing with Shallan and being alone with her.  He was back on a more comfortable level with another person around.

 

You think? He seemed rather annoyed to find Kaladin was the guard on duty...

[Firiel]

 

It is true he uses the eye colors as an excuse for everything. He calls Adolin "arrogant", "spoiled", "insufferable", "obnoxious" and many other unflattering terms mostly because he is lighteyed. He lets such a small thing as eye color blind his judgment of people.

 

But can you really blame him?  Every single ligheyes that doesn't actively stand up to the current light-eyes/dark-eyes hierarchy is passively supporting and perpetuating the system as it is.

 

I think that dark-eyes can very reasonably be compared to the African-American population post-Emancipation Proclamation, pre-Civil Rights Era.  Many white people during that time were very nice to African-Americans and were not bad people overall, but felt that it was just the "natural order" that white people be in charge.  Being kind to your servants doesn't excuse the belief that a whole subset of people is only really capable of servitude or believing that certain groups of people are innately more intelligent, capable, etc.

 

Kaladin is RIGHT.  He's standing up to an unjust system.  Dalinar is the ONLY light-eyes to show even one iota of initiative to change the system, and that's only because Kaladin performed a heroic feat.

 

I like Adolin.  I really do.  But I can see how he would appear obnoxious and arrogant to someone who understands first-hand the privilege that Adolin has (unasked for, but also unrecognized) that comes at the cost of others.  I like that Brandon had Kaladin learn to accept Adolin and Shallan more and basically realize that an unjust system doesn't mean that all the benefactors of said system are individually morally corrupt, but I do want the opposite to happen as well. I would really like to see some of the noble characters (Shallan and Adolin, specifically, because I really like them but see a lot of unquestioned belief in the social hierarchy) to recognize their light-eyed privilege in the future books.

[Aleksiel]

How many lighteyes did Kaladin really meet pre-WoR? Two city lords and their children, Amaram. He only had experience with highranked people. In Dalinar's camp, he was bewildered and surprised to see ligtheyes working ordinary jobs, who would actually make the majority of the lighteyes, because only few can rule. Kaladin never met any low dahn lighteyes pre-WoR. His grudge and disdain is based on a very small amount of lighteyes that wronged him greatly. Judging the majority of people by the three or four you've met isn't accurate or fair. 

[Firiel]

Like I said, I'm glad that Kaladin has learned that not all light-eyes are morally corrupt or actively bad people.  But I do see him breaking convention and refusing to "stay in his place" as a dark-eyes is ultimately a very good quality and doesn't reflect poorly on him. 

 

Despite being good people, Adolin and Shallan both assume there is something about their light-eyes that makes them inherently better than dark-eyes, and that's not okay.  You can see it when Shallan is scared about the possibility of dark-eyes passing as light-eyes when she learns about Tyn's eye-darkening drops.  Accepting privilege and discrimination without question is still contributing to it, albeit passively.  Kaladin and Dalinar are (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) the only major characters we've seen actively question or subvert the social hierarchy.  Dalinar does it by making Kaladin his bodyguard, and Kaladin does it by refusing to be treated as less-than-human because of his eye color.

 

Note: Interrupting a date is rude.  Interjecting with a good idea in a strategy meeting despite being "outranked" is activist and is more what I am referring to. 

[Aleksiel]

The Alethi society is as unfair as any class segregated society. It's not only the eye color, but also some professions are more favorable than others and praised.

 

Kaladin's fault (the way I see it) is that he doesn't see beyond the eyecolor. Meaning he thinks, for one, that darkeyes are better (may be because he hasn't seen any of them in position of power they could abuse, so he falsely concludes darkeyes wouldn't abuse privileges). Second, he somehow thinks changing the nahn-dahn system will suddenly make people treat each other better and do less harm to each other. If the lighteyes-darkeyes system gets changed, it will be changed to something similar. Another class based society, different segregation method, because Alethi are on Medieval level. But there will always be the same unfairness in the life of the lower class, and those in the upper ones will still exploit their position (depending on the person, of course).

 

There are some things I find curious about the lighteyes-darkeyes dogma. It's based on the memory of the Radiants, but the same Radiants are despised as traitors to humanity. I would think that then the association to the Radiants would make the lighteyes the lower and deposed class. Also, I wonder if darkeyes have something supernatural to them - they are a very dark green/purple/whatever that can only be caught in the right light, which isn't how earth dark eyes are.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Aleksiel

[hoser]

The ...

There are some things I find curious about the lighteyes-darkeyes dogma. It's based on the memory of the Radiants, but the same Radiants are despised as traitors to humanity. I would think that then the association to the Radiants would make the lighteyes the lower and deposed class. Also, I wonder if darkeyes have something supernatural to them - they are a very dark green/purple/whatever that can only be caught in the right light, which isn't how earth dark eyes are.

I totally agree.  This makes no sense to me, except that the contempt for the Lost Radiants actually doesn't seem to be a consistent attitude.  IIRC, though, it is just a thought of Kaladin's.  What makes total sense to me is that Shardholders get light eyes.  They rule people because of having Shards, then they get the ardents and others they rule to agree that they and their descendents should rule.

[Firiel]

I totally agree.  This makes no sense to me, except that the contempt for the Lost Radiants actually doesn't seem to be a consistent attitude.  IIRC, though, it is just a thought of Kaladin's.  What makes total sense to me is that Shardholders get light eyes.  They rule people because of having Shards, then they get the ardents and others they rule to agree that they and their descendents should rule.

 

Yeah, it's inconsistent, and I wonder if that's intentional.  Generally, the reasons for any social hierarchy are arbitrary.  The fact that the logic behind this particular system of governance breaks down under examination reveals to us (the readers) and to the characters able to see it so far (Kaladin and Dalinar) that it's unfair and is only accepted because "that's just how it is."

 

I wonder if Kaladin's physical DNA has changed with his eyes.  Like, will he pass light eyes on to his kids, or is his DNA still that of a dark-eyed man?  Physical DNA aside, does his spiritual or cognitive DNA change or is his Radiance-y just fulfilling what was already there?  What about Moash?  Did any aspect of his DNA change?

[Aleksiel]

I totally agree.  This makes no sense to me, except that the contempt for the Lost Radiants actually doesn't seem to be a consistent attitude.  IIRC, though, it is just a thought of Kaladin's.  What makes total sense to me is that Shardholders get light eyes.  They rule people because of having Shards, then they get the ardents and others they rule to agree that they and their descendents should rule.

 

It wasn't only Kal. When Dalinar said he wanted to refound the KR, here's the reaction:

 

 

“The Radiants?” Brightness Teshav demanded. “Are you mad? You’re going to try to rebuild a sect of traitors who gave us over to the Voidbringers?”

“The rest of this sounds good, Father,” Adolin said, stepping forward. “I know you think about the Radiants a lot, but you see them . . . differently than everyone else. It won’t go well if you announce that you want to emulate them.”

 

But I suppose the Shards giving their holders light eyes is part of what forced the dogma, though there must be more. The Heralds are thought to have lighteyes, so there's that. Though there are countries that worship Jazereze as a God, not the Almighty, but only Vorin countries have lighteyes/darkeyes system. 

[kari-no-sugata]

But can you really blame him?  Every single ligheyes that doesn't actively stand up to the current light-eyes/dark-eyes hierarchy is passively supporting and perpetuating the system as it is.

 

I don't blame Kaladin for being angry. He is right to seek justice. That doesn't give him the right to do whatever he likes in retaliation (a very common trap humans fall into). We also both recognise that he changes significantly by the end of the book though - effectively that he himself disagrees with his past actions and attitude.

 

Kaladin is RIGHT.  He's standing up to an unjust system.  Dalinar is the ONLY light-eyes to show even one iota of initiative to change the system, and that's only because Kaladin performed a heroic feat.

He is right that the system is unjust. That does not make his methods (or attitude) right. He should be setting a better example not applying reverse prejudice. It's made abundantly clear that his prejudices are distorting his perception of people and events. Fortunately, it is also made abundantly clear that by the end of the book he has managed to free himself of those prejudices and see lighteyes as fellow human beings.

 

Regarding Dalinar, I'm not sure I agree but this is more because I don't remember him specifically considering ways in which to reform the lighteye/darkeye system - ie what he did with Kaladin feels more like a once-off special case rather than the first step towards reform... though it may very well turn out to be one retrospectively. It's more of a semantic quibble

 

I like Adolin.  I really do.  But I can see how he would appear obnoxious and arrogant to someone who understands first-hand the privilege that Adolin has (unasked for, but also unrecognized) that comes at the cost of others.  I like that Brandon had Kaladin learn to accept Adolin and Shallan more and basically realize that an unjust system doesn't mean that all the benefactors of said system are individually morally corrupt, but I do want the opposite to happen as well. I would really like to see some of the noble characters (Shallan and Adolin, specifically, because I really like them but see a lot of unquestioned belief in the social hierarchy) to recognize their light-eyed privilege in the future books.

I'm not quite sure exactly what you have in mind but I certainly do hope to see some discussion and hopefully actual reform of Vorin culture, starting with the abolition of slavery. I'm hoping this will be one of the themes of the next book - if the Urithru group start having extended contact with non-Vorin cultures that should help. It will be also be interesting to see how Kaladin deals with his lighteyed status.

 

btw I suspect that Jasnah might have already questioned this aspect of Vorin culture. It will be interesting to see who gets the ball rolling...

[maxal]

Kaladin is RIGHT.  He's standing up to an unjust system.  Dalinar is the ONLY light-eyes to show even one iota of initiative to change the system, and that's only because Kaladin performed a heroic feat.

 

You are not being fair here I think as most lighteyes are powerless to change the system. Dalinar is a very influential person and he has authority enough to go slightly against some traditions such as naming a darkeye "captain".

 

The system is unjust, you are right, but Kaladin is being an unfair judge of it. He bases his judgement of others sorely on their eye color. He has decided that ALL lighteyes are dishonest, ill-intentioned, liars, untrustworthy and privileged, which is untrue. Darkeyes citizens are often richer than supposedly powerful lighteyes of the fourth dahn, as we see from one of Shallan's flashback. Lesser lighteyes do not live any better than darkeyes and sometimes they live worst. Kaladin keeps on dismissing Adolin and calling him arrogant, but he is no better. Adolin has never looked down on anyone and he has always treated those lesser than him with respect. Kaladin cannot claimed to have done the same as he treats anyone lighteyed with disdain. Worst he has the arrogance to think darkeyes would do better, would behave better, would make a better world if they ruled.

 

Bottom line is Kaladin let a few horrible experiences cloud his judgement of people. We have seen Dalinar is not the only honest lighteyed man good behaved towards darkeyes. Sebarial, for example, has a darkeyed mistress who runs his household. Kaladin's dislike of Adolin is clearly disguised jealousy. I was happy he grew out of it by the end of WoR.

 

 

I like Adolin.  I really do.  But I can see how he would appear obnoxious and arrogant to someone who understands first-hand the privilege that Adolin has (unasked for, but also unrecognized) that comes at the cost of others.  I like that Brandon had Kaladin learn to accept Adolin and Shallan more and basically realize that an unjust system doesn't mean that all the benefactors of said system are individually morally corrupt, but I do want the opposite to happen as well. I would really like to see some of the noble characters (Shallan and Adolin, specifically, because I really like them but see a lot of unquestioned belief in the social hierarchy) to recognize their light-eyed privilege in the future books.

 

It is true Adolin does not recognized the privilege he was raised him and it is true he takes it for granted, but it hasn't made him overly arrogant. He likes to boost like many young man, like Kaladin himself, but he isn't condescending towards others. I agree with you however it would be nice to see some lighteyes come to criticized their privileges.

 

Edit:Grammar

Edited May 24, 2014 by maxal

[LightReader]

So, getting back to the discussion about Adolin's character arc, etc.... I don't want Adolin to die. If a Kholin has to die I think it will be Dalinar. I could see a cool arc where Dalinar dies at the end of book four, (probably in some event involving Eshonai as that is supposed to be her book). Then book five has Dalinar's flashbacks, while Adolin takes the forefront in the present, as he is trying to fill his father's shoes and hold everything together. Over the course of books three and four Adolin will go through his dark period, possibly becoming estranged from his family for a time. Then he reunites with them just before Dalinar's death. That event forces further growth, which could propel Adolin to awaken his blade and become a KR himself. Then again, the whole prodigal son trying to fill his Father's shoes bit is something of a trope too, but Brandon has a history of either turning these tropes on their head, or using them, but in unexpected ways. Of course, Brandon will come up with a much better story than any of us could predict. I half expect all the Kholins to live simply because everyones been saying one of them should die.

[maxal]

So, getting back to the discussion about Adolin's character arc, etc.... I don't want Adolin to die. If a Kholin has to die I think it will be Dalinar. I could see a cool arc where Dalinar dies at the end of book four, (probably in some event involving Eshonai as that is supposed to be her book). Then book five has Dalinar's flashbacks, while Adolin takes the forefront in the present, as he is trying to fill his father's shoes and hold everything together. Over the course of books three and four Adolin will go through his dark period, possibly becoming estranged from his family for a time. Then he reunites with them just before Dalinar's death. That event forces further growth, which could propel Adolin to awaken his blade and become a KR himself. Then again, the whole prodigal son trying to fill his Father's shoes bit is something of a trope too, but Brandon has a history of either turning these tropes on their head, or using them, but in unexpected ways. Of course, Brandon will come up with a much better story than any of us could predict. I half expect all the Kholins to live simply because everyones been saying one of them should die.

 

You may be right. I have long thought this would be the more plausible character path for Adolin, which makes me think it won't happen. However, I do not want to see Dalinar die in book 4. I expect him to die at some point, but I am hoping it won't be before the end. As for Adolin, I want him to live through book 10 I am hoping he will grow to fill his father's shoes and manage what Dalinar will fail to do: create a real united Alethkar. That and re-awaken his shardblade

 

I do not want to see any Kohlin dies either, except for Elhokar His son may be assassinated too although that may be a bit morbid for Brandon. I suspect Dalinar will either bite the dust or become Nohadon 2 Navani may die at some points. Do not touch the brothers. Not the brothers. Understand Brandon?

[LightReader]

I agree, I don't really want to see any of the Kholin's die either. I'm just thinking of what Brandon said about possibly doing a character's flashback book after they die, and thinking something like that could work along those lines.

Actually, if there's a Kholin I wouldn't mind seeing killed off, it's Elhokar's wife (possibly assassinated on Jasnah's order after the mess she's made in Kholinar). I am hoping we get to see Elhokar with his kid at some point though. I'd kindof like to see him actually go back to Kholinar and grow into a decent dad and king as he tries to get his country ready for the desolation.

I do hope the brothers survive. I also hope they end up basically adopting Kaladin into the family. They already have a little bit. And it'd be very sad if Navani became a widow again, so I hope Dalinar sticks around too. I'm just not sure how likely that is to happen. Maybe the two of them will go out together in a heroic sacrifice-themselves-for-the-sake-of-the-kids sort of thing. .

Edited May 24, 2014 by LightReader

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

I could see in Adolin's future, him going off the deep end and being brought back by a relationship with Shallan ( they have both committed murder in the name of family ). At the same time have Kaladin take a hold of Ehlokar and have him teach him how to look after people and teach him, with Dalinar, how to lead. Leaving Dalinar free to die at the end of book 4 or part way into book 5, at which point Ehlokar comes into his own as a Bondsmith, taking over Dalinar's place. Or vice-versa. Then when Adolin becomes 'good' again he is forced by Dalinar's death to start emulating him in Honor of his name, thus allowing himself to restore his Shardblade, which would be an awesome way to end Adolin's arc for the first lot of books then when it's his book it gives us something to look forward to as we would all want to know how awesome he became as a Dustbringer. ( pretty sure he gets his own book )

[Aleksiel]

Dalinar might end up being Honor's champion or Nohadon 2. Brandon has spoken a lot in his classes how a writer should be bale to kill his darlings, so Dalinar might be a goner.

 

With Renarin having a book in the second five, it's possible both Dalinar na dAdolin to be dead at that point, so that would be one of the things that pushes Renarin to have a more central figure (in he manages to be a KR in the shadows until then). It's not an outcome I'd like, just something that came to my mind and I thought I'd share it.