Why so little Renarin love?

[FeatherWriter]

Hehe, that'd be enought to get even me to drink tea!

[shawnhargreaves]

FWIW I'm really looking forward to a Szeth book.   He's a crazy character with a very interesting backstory that I want to learn more about.

[Mckeedee123]

Renarin's likeable and all, but the end of Words of Radiance really made me dislike him (where he panicked and fretted about the Everstorm while Shallan got the Oathgate running). Dalinar was right in saying he was a waste of shards.

 

Though if he ever learns how not to get a siezure/panic attack in the middle of a fight, I'd be more OK with him. For the first two books though, all I can say is that being well-intentioned doesn't stop him from being useless

 

I've really liked Szeth in Way of Kings, though the insane version in Words of Radiance got on my nerves (I suppose Brandon did promise such a character in the WoA annotations, though). If Szeth actually learned to think for himself he'd be my second-favorite character, hands down. Given that he has a book (or at least some flashbacks) dedicated to him, I'd say there's more character development in his future. Phew.

Edited November 29, 2014 by mckeedee123

[Ickarium]

I think you're being too harsh on him.  We don't know how his 'Seeing' works, but he sees the future.  It's very likely incredibly traumatic for him, and it's not like he has a guide - only Lift has a Spren who knows much about what's up at the start.

As for why Renarin isn't so forefront in fandom, I think as someone else mentioned, it's because he's not a primary character right now.  His brave and/or interesting actions are done as a part of another character's plotline, and they outshine him, so it's easy to miss.

Avoiding the shipping stuff, as I find that stuff silly.

 

As for Szeth, I'm really not looking forward to the next book.  I agree with Kaladin, he's a simple coward hiding behind the 'rules'.  He could change, and Brandon has the talent to do so, but I still find him the _least_ interesting character in the series.  And as this series includes Elkohar, that's saying something.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Ickarium

[maxal]

I think you're being too harsh on him.  We don't know how his 'Seeing' works, but he sees the future.  It's very likely incredibly traumatic for him, and it's not like he has a guide - only Lift has a Spren who knows much about what's up at the start.

 

He has Glys and Glys has developed enough to tell him what he is. He is not alone. I personally believe his melt down at the end was from seeing his dreaded vision come to live. Before that, he may have been clinging to the hope they were false.

[Mckeedee123]

As for why Renarin isn't so forefront in fandom, I think as someone else mentioned, it's because he's not a primary character right now.  His brave and/or interesting actions are done as a part of another character's plotline, and they outshine him, so it's easy to miss.

 

Oh, so Renarin isn't at the forefront of the fandom? That's news to me.  

 

I've read The Stormlight Archives several times trying to figure out why so many people are enamored with Renarin, and I just can't figure it out. He wants to be a warrior, but he's not. He wants to step in and help with stuff, but he panicks. Imean sure, the shardblade is screaming at him the entire time, but shouldn't he tell someone he can't use it instead of being so secretive and esoteric? He's likeable, but... He's nothing special

 

Man, fanfiction does weird things to characters...  

Edited November 29, 2014 by mckeedee123

[Ickarium]

I ... don't really read fanfiction.    Do you not think that being willing to fight in a duel to try to save your brother, in spite of not being a great warrior and with a blade screaming in your head is awesome?  I repeat - he did something that /staggered Kaladin/.

 

I mean, yes, he's not been a viewpoint character, so hasn't done some of the 'awesome' things that Kaladin or Shallan have done yet.  But his time is coming, I'm fairly sure.  I sometimes think people simply ignore the stuff he's done because he's not Kaladin.

[Mckeedee123]

I ... don't really read fanfiction.    Do you not think that being willing to fight in a duel to try to save your brother, in spite of not being a great warrior and with a blade screaming in your head is awesome?  I repeat - he did something that /staggered Kaladin/.

 

 

I repeat: He's "likeable", not "awesome"

 

When he entered the arena he was a complete liability. Relis used him as blackmail, for Storms' sake. That is notably not "awesome".

Edited November 29, 2014 by mckeedee123

[maxal]

 

I've read The Stormlight Archives several times trying to figure out why so many people are enamored with Renarin, and I just can't figure it out.

 

I believe the reason we are attracted to one character instead of another is highly linked of our real life personality. Renarin is an introvert, secretive individual who does not share much and has shown a tendency to be the story resident geek. He has limited interpersonal skills and has most likely been bullied all his life. Whereas he is not my kind of character, the fact remains there is a certain crowd that is attracted by him.

 

Why?

 

I have read many arguments in favor of him. People who like him are generally attracted to his introvert nature, his underestimate under dog feature, his geek engineer side and his courage in his attempt to protect his family. They tend to see his failure to do so as endearing as opposed to unnerving or annoying.

 

However, not everyone feels the same about him. As I said, our individuality, as readers, often come into play in order to determine our favorites. I do believe we may be more susceptible to positively respond to characters exhibiting attributes that resemble ours or ones we admire or are able to understand as opposed to characters exhibiting thinking patterns far away from ours. I do not know if everyone is the same in this aspect, but I sure have a harder time connecting with characters having little in common with me, as an individual.

 

 

I repeat: He's "likeable", not "awesome"

 

When he entered the arena he was a complete liability. Relis used him as blackmail, for Storms' sake. That is notably not "awesome".

 

I agree that Renarin is not awesome. Awesome would have been if he had managed to defeat one of the shardbearers, but the truth is he could have caused his brother's death... Fans of Renarin usually like to state how courageous he was by stepping into the arena like he did and how amazing it was he managed to simply hold his Blade while it screams and whereas all this is true, the fact remained he prevented his brother from yielding by turning himself into the object of blackmail.

 

Had Kaladin not stepped in, Adolin would have been killed or crippled and Renarin could have very well suffered the same faith. Arguments in favor of Renarin will usually explain how, by managing to distract one of the shardbearer, he helped his brother win, which is true, because Kaladin was also there to help.

 

Had Renarin not stepped in, Adolin would have yielded. He would have lost all of his family's shards, including his own, and bruised his ego, but he would have exited the fight mostly unharmed. Now the question remains if Relis would have truly let him yield or if he would have invent another ploy to keep Adolin into the arena. We do not know. It is quite possible Adolin never had the possibility to yield, in which case, Renarin's timely arrival may have been his only chance as it most likely triggered Kaladin's arrival...

 

Would Kaladin have stepped in had Renarin not been there? I am unsure. Whereas Kaladin openly hated Adolin at that point in time, he actually liked Renarin. Who did he step in to protect? Would he have felt the same incentive to act had Adolin remain alone down there? Even if he did, could Adolin and Kaladin potentially defeat the four shardbearers on their own had Renarin not awkwardly manage to distract one of them for a short while?

 

Bottom line is Renarin's decision to step in was a huge gamble. He could have made his brother lost it all had Kaladin not helped, although it is unsure Adolin would have managed to exit the fight unharmed had Renarin not involved himself. In the end, it worked and he may have very well managed to effectively tip the balance in favor of Adolin, which is worthy of mention. But it could also have ended badly, very badly.

[Mckeedee123]

I believe the reason we are attracted to one character instead of another is highly linked of our real life personality. Renarin is an introvert, secretive individual who does not share much and has shown a tendency to be the story resident geek. He has limited interpersonal skills and has most likely been bullied all his life. Whereas he is not my kind of character, the fact remains there is a certain crowd that is attracted by him.

 

Why?

 

I have read many arguments in favor of him. People who like him are generally attracted to his introvert nature, his underestimate under dog feature, his geek engineer side and his courage in his attempt to protect his family. They tend to see his failure to do so as endearing as opposed to unnerving or annoying.

 

However, not everyone feels the same about him. As I said, our individuality, as readers, often come into play in order to determine our favorites. I do believe we may be more susceptible to positively respond to characters exhibiting attributes that resemble ours or ones we admire or are able to understand as opposed to characters exhibiting thinking patterns far away from ours. I do not know if everyone is the same in this aspect, but I sure have a harder time connecting with characters having little in common with me, as an individual.

 

 

 

I agree that Renarin is not awesome. Awesome would have been if he had managed to defeat one of the shardbearers, but the truth is he could have caused his brother's death... Fans of Renarin usually like to state how courageous he was by stepping into the arena like he did and how amazing it was he managed to simply hold his Blade while it screams and whereas all this is true, the fact remained he prevented his brother from yielding by turning himself into the object of blackmail.

 

Had Kaladin not stepped in, Adolin would have been killed or crippled and Renarin could have very well suffered the same faith. Arguments in favor of Renarin will usually explain how, by managing to distract one of the shardbearer, he helped his brother win, which is true, because Kaladin was also there to help.

 

Had Renarin not stepped in, Adolin would have yielded. He would have lost all of his family's shards, including his own, and bruised his ego, but he would have exited the fight mostly unharmed. Now the question remains if Relis would have truly let him yield or if he would have invent another ploy to keep Adolin into the arena. We do not know. It is quite possible Adolin never had the possibility to yield, in which case, Renarin's timely arrival may have been his only chance as it most likely triggered Kaladin's arrival...

 

Would Kaladin have stepped in had Renarin not been there? I am unsure. Whereas Kaladin openly hated Adolin at that point in time, he actually liked Renarin. Who did he step in to protect? Would he have felt the same incentive to act had Adolin remain alone down there? Even if he did, could Adolin and Kaladin potentially defeat the four shardbearers on their own had Renarin not awkwardly manage to distract one of them for a short while?

 

Bottom line is Renarin's decision to step in was a huge gamble. He could have made his brother lost it all had Kaladin not helped, although it is unsure Adolin would have managed to exit the fight unharmed had Renarin not involved himself. In the end, it worked and he may have very well managed to effectively tip the balance in favor of Adolin, which is worthy of mention. But it could also have ended badly, very badly.

 

Good post. I like this post. I agree completely. Upvote.

Edited November 30, 2014 by mckeedee123

[WeiryWriter]

Another important factor in why people like Renarin, he's neuro-atypical (he's mildly autistic), which really isn't something that gets depicted in spec-fic very often. For people who share Renarin's particularities it's something that lets them connect to him in ways they may not necessarily be able to with other characters.  That's why certain criticisms of Renarin's character tend to get received poorly.  If one belittles Renarin based on something that is a factor of his disabilities how are people with those disabilities /not/ supposed to be offended?

 

Was him stepping into duel the best choice?  Maybe, maybe not, but it was admirable.  He was not thinking of himself, he was trying to help his brother.  Was it he smartest or most rational move, not really but people aren't usually rational when it comes to the people they love.

 

As for the scene at the end, there are extenuating circumstances.  We really don't know what his visions are like, most of them are off-screen and the one we do see is from someone else's POV, someone who isn't aware of his situation and is distracted by other things.  Say he that in that instance all he saw was the two storms meeting above the army, and the army not being there afterwards.  You know what I would be freaking out at that point too and that's without the Vorin cultural baggage that goes with foretelling the future.

[maxal]

  That's why certain criticisms of Renarin's character tend to get received poorly.  If one belittles Renarin based on something that is a factor of his disabilities how are people with those disabilities /not/ supposed to be offended?

 

The same could be said about any characters... As individuals, we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. We all have struggled with certain aspects of our life as everyone struggles with something. Does this mean we should be offended each time someone claims to dislike a character exhibiting personality traits we are sharing with him (or her)? Simply because Renarin's specific condition has a name does every comment not favorable to him must be interpreted as an offense towards real-life autistic people?

 

More often, people who dislike Renarin's story arc in WoR tend to disagree with is refusal to share his knowledge with his very supportive family. It rarely has anything to do with his condition, even if it is a weighting factor in his overall behavior, as neurotypical individuals could have reacted the exact same way given the same conditions. It must also be stated it is not obvious Renarin is autistic and I'd wager most readers did not identify him as such.

 

In a similar way, I have seen people being brought down for disliking Kaladin's story arc and thinking he came through as whiny and capricious. They are being told it is because he is depressed and disliking him is judging individuals having to fight with this disease on an everyday basis.

 

On the other hand, I have rarely seen people suffering the same fate for disliking Shallan. I have never read an argument being made her tendency to dissociate is making her unique and is a testimony to individuals living with the same conditions. People who dislike her are usually repelled by her false wittiness without taking into consideration it is linked to her particular traumatic childhood. "I hate Shallan" posts tend to be better received, on average, than" I hate Kaladin" or "I hate Renarin" posts.

 

Is the fandom therefore more accepting of Renarin and Kaladins's struggles than Shallan?

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that every single post expressing a negative opinion on any character could be read as offending by real-life individuals exhibiting the same characteristics, whether they are neurotypical or not. We should therefore avoid reading them as such and used them as a basis to express how it is we disagree or agree while keeping in mind the particularities making this or that character behaving in a given way.

 

Was him stepping into duel the best choice?  Maybe, maybe not, but it was admirable.  He was not thinking of himself, he was trying to help his brother.  Was it he smartest or most rational move, not really but people aren't usually rational when it comes to the people they love.

 

It was admirable, I do agree. I also agree he did not think it through: he acted on impulse. He saw his brother being beaten down in an unfair fight he could not possibly win and felt he had to do something. I doubt he sat there and weighted his options: Adolin needed help. Now. So he stepped in. Was it wise? Most certainly not as it could have ended very badly for both of them. I called it a gamble, but I doubt Renarin thought of it in these terms.

 

Renarin probably managed to help his brother win by unexpected turns of events. I sincerely doubt Adolin could have yielded even if Renarin had not been used as blackmail. Relis and friends wanted to beat Adolin down, they wanted to injure him: they must have known he would try to yield before they<d get the chance to do so. Adolin may be arrogant, he is not stupid nor prideful. He would not have purposely accept being crippled just to save himself from the shame of having to yield.

 

 

As for the scene at the end, there are extenuating circumstances.  We really don't know what his visions are like, most of them are off-screen and the one we do see is from someone else's POV, someone who isn't aware of his situation and is distracted by other things.  Say he that in that instance all he saw was the two storms meeting above the army, and the army not being there afterwards.  You know what I would be freaking out at that point too and that's without the Vorin cultural baggage that goes with foretelling the future.

 

I think he saw his vision coming true... It must not have known before hand they would... Seeing it confirmed his worst fears: he is indeed seeing the future with all it implies.

[WeiryWriter]

There's a difference between being critical of a character and being disrespectful.

 

"I did not enjoy Kaladin's plot arc in WoR" is okay "Kaladin is super whiny why doesn't he just get over it" is not.

 

Likewise "I did not like how Renarin didn't think through his actions" is a legitimate complaint "Renarin is useless [for reasons related to his disabilities like having a seizure in the middle of a fight]" is not okay.

 

With things like depression or autism Things Are Personal.  They generally aren't portrayed very well in fiction and those with them do not easy lives.  The general populace doesn't really doesn't understand them well so in general those with them aren't treated particularly well (yes there are those who are decent human beings and treat them well, but not everyone is like that).  There's a lot of baggage that comes with this stuff and if you aren't aware of it is incredibly easy to be offensive.

 

Long story short, while it is not okay to be ignorant of whether something is offensive it is understandable.  That said if someone says "Yo that thing you just said super offensive" try to understand why and learn something new so you can avoid that sort of thing in the future.

 

As for the Shallan vs. Kaladin and Renarin, they should all be treated the same but male characters tend to be given more slack than females on the whole (not just in this fandom) for reasons tied to deeply ingrained cultural biases in Western civilization (that I am really not well suited to discuss).

[maxal]

Long story short, while it is not okay to be ignorant of whether something is offensive it is understandable.  That said if someone says "Yo that thing you just said super offensive" try to understand why and learn something new so you can avoid that sort of thing in the future.

 

Are you going to try to understand why your last post was offensive to me so you could avoid it in the future?

[Oudeis]

I for one see Renarin as a seed. He's an obviously very important character, and ironically we have seen NOTHING from his perspective. We got Navani, we even got Sadeas. He's a Radiant, meaning we know he's broken. I'd like to know how. Simply being on the functional end of the autistic spectrum doesn't strike me as enough, not when you have a family that universally supportive and, i cannot stress this enough, insanely wealthy and resourceful. Perhaps the circumstances around losing his mother?

It seems so conspicuous to me that in two books we've had not one perspective. Was it simply to hide Glys ? Or in his book, will were be treated to flashbacks to these important scenes, from a whole new perspective?

In short, we know so little about Renarin that my opinion of him is not strong. His lack of presence is conspicuous enough to me that i dare hope we will one day have cause to reevaluate everything we thought we knew about such scenes as that first chasmfiend hunt.

[Unhinged]

While I admit that it is way to early in the series to think that anything is set in stone I can't help but see some similarities between Renarin and Spook. Both started out as minor characters who seem to have powers that are more or less useless... ok maybe useless is the wrong term, but both truthwatching and burning tin don't strike me as the first ability someone would want, (at first glance). However by the end of Mistborn Spook had pushed his ability so far that he was able to fight using his senses of touch and hearing to detect a sword from behind. I theorize that we'll see something similar from Ranarin he's going to feel that he isn't contributing to the fight so he'll keep using his ability until he fights like he was burning Atium.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Unhinged

[Ickarium]

The thing that interests me, as mentioned above: -why- is Renarin 'broken' enough to become a Radiant.  We don't really see anything - some minor condenscension for being the 'non warrior' Alethi and considered weak, but nothing on par with Shallan nor Kaladin.  And this interests me.  What secret is there?  Does he know what Dalinar went away to forget about his wife that was so bad?  And was it so bad that it broke him?  We don't know.

[WeiryWriter]

Are you going to try to understand why your last post was offensive to me so you could avoid it in the future?

 

Sure, send me a PM about it.

[TheArcanist]

I most certainly do enjoy Renarin as a character. He doesn't enter the picture much, but when he does it's memorable. While he isn't much of a combatant, he doesn't have to be in order to be useful, but I can see why he's pushing himself to become one from a cultural/societal/theological point of view.

 

Speaking as a neuroatypical individual [sPD and ADHD] with extreme social anxiety who may or may not have focal epileptic seizures (the parents are trying to get me diagnosed but they're a rare occurrence and don't really interfere with my life much at all) I can identify quite a bit with Renarin, get inside his head. It's nice to see in fiction not just a character you can admire or wish to emulate- because there's plenty of those -but a character that you can directly relate to, because for a lot of people it's an extremely uncommon thing.

 

As an introvert, usually a lot of advice my parents or friends try to give me about reducing social anxiety is to change myself- except for the slight problem that I actually like being a quiet geeky guy who enjoys reading and has a bit of an offbeat personality. It can be pretty disconcerting to be told by people you care about, and who care about you, that there's something wrong with the way you are. Probably the biggest thing of that, with me, is when people tell me that my emotions are either being dramatized for attention purposes, or that I'm simply being melodramatic, or when I come out of my shell a bit that I'm acting 'not like myself'. I'm usually very subdued when it comes to my emotions, but every so often they just kind of burst in one extreme or the other, and I was always taught that those kinds of outburst, when I got older, could not just be detrimental to my social life but actually dangerous. Now, it's one thing to make sure you're well adjusted, it's another thing to be told you're effectively a ticking time bomb by your parents.

 

So, when you use literature as an escape and someone shows up that you can actually understand. Not like, admire, aspire to be, or enjoy as a character, but really immerse yourself in their experience and feel the story it becomes a very special kind of connection to a character. Renarin is one such character, at least for me, and I can't wait for him to get a bit more focus in the story.

[Kyats Rani]

Personally, I have nothing against Renarin. He seems to me as a potentially interesting character, but he appears rarely in the book and doesn't get any pov, so it's rather easy to forget about him. I guess more people would like him if he had some more spotlight, because now he's just rather easy to miss. Readers always feel strongly about important characters but often don't have any opinion about those more in the background.

 

Now, about the connection between characters' diabilities/psychical conditions and the way they're received... I agree that people suffering from similar conditions feel better being able to relate to a character on a personal level. I think it's a good thing. And while I strongly believe that it's wrong for a reader to hate a character because of said character's condition, I think such things shouldn't be taken so much into account. I mean, I think that using a psychical condition, disability or a hard past to justify everything the character does or claim any criticism to be disrespectful on this ground is also wrong. Yes, such things can explain why certain character acts as he/she does, but it doesn't mean that said character can't be criticised for his/her mistakes.

 

I think it'll be better if I explain it on an example - my opinion's of characters. I actually kind of like Renarin but I think that some of the things he did were stupid or reckless. Joining the duel was reckless, but I admire Renarin for this - it was also brave and it showed his devotion to his brother. But keeping Glys and his visions secret for so long? I'm no expert so I don't know if it's related to his autism or not, but I believe that doing so was stupid. No matter if it can be explained or not, I see this action as a mistake on his part and that's it. Now, Kaladin. Kaladin is my favourite character so far. It doesn't mean I don't want to hit him on the head with a book, hard, when he does something stupid (like the time when he challenged Amaram). Other times, when he's particularly sad or beaten down, I think he needs a hug And while I understand he's depressed, some of his actions and decisions he makes (possibly because of this) annoy me - like the way he refused to trust anyone with light eyes. He may have had reasons and all, but I was angry he judged people because of eye color and not who they were. I judge him regardless of his condition - I may understand but it doesn't mean I have to approve (again, of actions not of his feelings). As for Shallan, well, I dislike her. Very much. Though I admit she had her moments (one or two... ). Her past can explain why she acts the way she does, but it doesn't mean I have to like her, right?

 

I guess it boils down to whether or not I'd like to spend time with such person or not in real life. I think that if I had a chance to meet Renarin, I'd befriend him without any problems. With Kaladin too - though I'd propably argue with him often (but hey, I argue with my best friend at least once a week about some stupid things and we're still best friends since we were 3 or 4). But I honestly can't stand people like Shallan. My interactions with such always end in a big row. How can I like her in the book if I know that if she were, say, a girl I know from college, we'd hate each other with passion? It doesn't have anything to do with psychical conditions or whatsoever - I judge characters as I'd judge real life people. After all, it's a person we interact with not a specimen of a certain condition. We should be respectful but it doesn't mean we should look only at this.

 

Now, I hope my post isn't offensive in any way to anyone. If so, then know that I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention, and please let me know why it is so - I'll try to learn for the future.

[Scriptorian]

I think the phenomenon here is that we've got one group of people who really like Renarin due to the type of connection Arcanist describes (I'm in the is category myself). Ironically, this group tends to be rather vocal in his Renarin's defense (aren't we supposed to be introverts?). Then there's everyone else who range somewhere between meh-like and meh-dislike, which I'm totally okay with.

 

We really don't see much of Renarin, and this is probably why were getting varying opinions. There's a big empty space of characterization, and what we do see could lead to varying opinions. But for people who see a lot of ourselves in Renarin, its pretty easy to unconsciously extrapolate what we characterization were missing.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is just that we all see him from pretty varying perspectives, so it's perfectly fine that there are equally varying opinions on him as a character.

 

That being said, I also really like Shallan's character, even back in tWoK. 

 

Edit: I still feel the empty hole in my heart that the Shallarin ship left.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Serendipity

[Kasimir]

...I'm neutral about Renarin for now: I just don't see enough of him yet to make a judgement of like/dislike, so I'm suspending judgement for the time being. I do find myself fascinated to know more about how Renarin was broken (as people have already pointed out)--in particular, I find the contrastive question very interesting--so: why Renarin but not Adolin? (My current assumption is that at least up to right before WoR, Adolin didn't count as broken. Don't want to get into arguments about whether he broke later/will break.) It seems to suggest there's a story to be told about how Renarin grew up and how Adolin grew up.

[FeatherWriter]

<moderator voice>

I'll come in and say that, I'm fairly sure, as a mod, bringing this topic back up after months without new information counts as thread necromancy, and probably shouldn't have happened. That said, there's obviously a discussion in here again, so we might as well keep going right? Just try to avoid necroing threads in the future, guys.

</moderator voice>

 

...especially when the original topic is "I think Renarin deserves to be appreciated more!" and the person to bring it back says "actually I really dislike Renarin a lot."

 

Okay, for those few who aren't aware, I'd probably lay my life down for Renarin Kholin if he were real and I'm not even joking. Personally, my reaction to people not liking him tends to be a mix between a protective hiss and an uncontrollable urge to write fourteen page thesis papers in his defense.

 

But it's finals week. And I am so so so so so very tired. Even my overwhelming love for Renarin cannot sustain me to write defenses while I am exhausted like this. So, I'm kinda here... but I'm probably not going to be making major responses the way I usually might. Those of you are wondering why people love Renarin or wondering why people find him engaging, or really, anything at all about Renarin, I can answer questions at least.

 

*sleepy wave*

[sun tzaro]

 

With things like depression or autism Things Are Personal.  They generally aren't portrayed very well in fiction and those with them do not easy lives.  The general populace doesn't really doesn't understand them well so in general those with them aren't treated particularly well (yes there are those who are decent human beings and treat them well, but not everyone is like that).  There's a lot of baggage that comes with this stuff and if you aren't aware of it is incredibly easy to be offensive.ted to discuss).

 

Similarly, people shouldn't be abrasive when criticizing Shallan's father. Anger issues can be very difficult to deal with, and, as in the case of Lin, such issues can very adversely affect the lives of the afflicted and those around them.

 

Similarly, people should be respectful when discussing Szeth. As the most unstable character in both books, before anyone judges him for all the murders he's made, they should consider the state of his mental health and all of the baggage that he brings with him.

 

Similarly, people should watch what they say when condemning Amaram. He clearly has Empathy Deficit Disorder, judging from his willingness to murder in cold-blood and lie like a snake when confronted about it. His mental disorder should override your dislike of him.

 

 

Few things are more important than being politically correct. I'm certain that if I were to find an autistic person, he (or she, of course) would be very offended by people calling Renarin "whiny". Why? Because in doing so, said people are offending the whole of the autistic population of the world.

 

Think before you post. If your post breaches my arbitrary standards into the nebulous realm of "offensiveness", then don't post!

Edited December 6, 2014 by sun tzaro

[Zea mays]

Er, egregious sarcasm and false equivalency might not be the best way to make your point.

Lin Davar, Szeth and Amaram have all commited cold blooded murder. Renarin, as far as we know, has not. In fact, so far, he has not performed any malicious act of any kind.

He had problems communicating with his family. Asking folks to consider how an autism spectrum disorder might exacerbate those problems is not unreasonable. Asking people to excuse a vile action like murder because the perpetrator suffer from ASP or a similar condition would be "PCness run amuck", but that is not what I see happening here.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Zea mays