Why so little Renarin love?

[happyman]

maxal, why are you so determined to dislike Renarin?  I'll gladly cop to being one of the people who overlooked him until Feather opened my eyes, but he did some amazing things in WoR.

 

And I find it amazing that you base some of your dislike on where you think his character is going to go.  As someone who strongly empathizes with Renarin, I can tell you that being put in to the spotlight and being made an important character is probably one of the hardest things that could have happened to him (even if he would have claimed otherwise before it happened).  There are people for whom nothing is scarier than success.  That alone could crack your rosy view of how things are going to go forward. 

 

My take is that at the end of WoR, Renarin is terrified by what he is doing.  It's so far from an unmitigated success for him, its not even funny.  His character has a long ways to go, still, and it will not be easy for him, even if it would be easy for you.

Edited May 19, 2014 by happyman

[maxal]

maxal, why are you so determined to dislike Renarin?  I'll gladly cop to being one of the people who overlooked him until Feather opened my eyes, but he did some amazing things in WoR.

 

And I find it amazing that you base some of your dislike on where you think his character is going to go.  As someone who strongly empathizes with Renarin, I can tell you that being put in to the spotlight and being made an important character is probably one of the hardest things that could have happened to him (even if he would have claimed otherwise before it happened).  There are people for whom nothing is scarier than success.  That alone could crack your rosy view of how things are going to go forward. 

 

My take is that at the end of WoR, Renarin is terrified by what he is doing.  It's so far from an unmitigated success for him, its not even funny.  His character has a long ways to go, still, and it will not be easy for him, even if it would be easy for you.

 

I do not dislike him. I reserve my dislike for other characters. I do not feel strongly for him and I did not enjoy his plot line in WoR. I do have trouble connecting with him as a character. I understand very well why he does the things he does, but I still cannot connect with him, not in the way I connect with other characters. I just do not feel for him. As I have stated before, he may still grow on me. In other books, there has been characters I hated that turned out being favorites and other I loved I turned out hating, so nothing is lost. 

 

 

Bravery can be defined as doing something foolish out of caring for others.  Really, the motivation for it is irrelevant, and that seems to be where you're putting the emphasis.  Most soldiers don't charge into battle because they're excited or fearless--they do it out of a fear of failing their comrades.  Renarin is afraid of failing his family, and so he's willing to do anything to save them.  That's brave.  You don't have to have analyzed the entire situation and determined what it happening, what the risks are, and how best to act in order for it to be brave.  I highly, highly suggest you either talk to or read real accounts of people who have been decorated for heroism, from their point of view.  Deep care is the motivation for virtually all of them.  If that can get them the highest recognition of courage and bravery in the country (no matter whose country it is, from the US and UK to Russia or China and beyond), then can we at least recognize that Renarin has demonstrated bravery?

 

Another caveat: No one is brave all the time.  What someone has endured and faced dozens of times before may be too much them the next time.  We see this in real life, and in-book we saw this with the Heralds.  Saying that previous actions suddenly aren't demonstration of bravery anymore just because the scariest, most terrifying confluence of events imaginable happen to break them is false logic.  Are the Heralds not brave, because they had an option to show courage and instead walked away? 

 

Your parallel is interesting. I have never saw it this way. I have always considered bravery must be shown after one has analyzed every single possibility and yet decides to take the jump. It is true however real life heroism happen in different ways. Thank you.

[lwd24era]

Your parallel is interesting. I have never saw it this way. I have always considered bravery must be shown after one has analyzed every single possibility and yet decides to take the jump. It is true however real life heroism happen in different ways. Thank you.

Awesome. Always heartening to see someone have a paradigm shift(at least a partial one)and admit it when they've been shown an alternate pov and agree.

[FeatherWriter]

I do not dislike him. I reserve my dislike for other characters. I do not feel strongly for him and I did not enjoy his plot line in WoR. 

 

I think the reason people keep thinking that you really dislike him is that, for a character you claim not to feel very strongly for, you do tend to show up as the voice of opposition in lots of threads about him, Maxal.

[maxal]

I think the reason people keep thinking that you really dislike him is that, for a character you claim not to feel very strongly for, you do tend to show up as the voice of opposition in lots of threads about him, Maxal.

 

I know. I have been harsh on him lately, I must admit, but I still do not dislike him. Not in the way I dislike other characters such as Elhokar. I do not feel strongly for him, that is true, and I have trouble understanding why others feel so strongly about him, that is also true.

 

The ending of WoR has been very frustrating for me and unfortunately Renarin has been in the middle of that frustration, which is why I voice so much opposition about him.

 

And I also believe a little opposition makes a better discussion

[Mistdork]

I will still argue (and will probably continue to argue to the grave) that Renarin has a scholarly mindset. He's analytical and he works through his problems in a very logical and scholarly way. We see multiple times throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance that he has a fascination with fabrials, often going over to inspect them or ask Navani about them. There's a moment in Words of Radiance where he notices Kaladin inspecting a fabrial and actually goes over and starts a conversation with Kaladin about it.

 

Yes. Renarin. Going over and starting a conversation with someone who is almost a stranger to him.

 

 

So, THAT's his specialization. I bet Renarin could talk about fabrials all day given the opportunity, Feather, seeing as ASD people seem to find niches like that. Knowing a ton about fabrials and wanting to talk about it fits in quite well...ha, I didn't notice this when reading WoR...

 

What if the box were a kind of fabrial stim toy?

 

(And look, I'm not picking on your fan-ism!)

[maxal]

So, THAT's his specialization. I bet Renarin could talk about fabrials all day given the opportunity, Feather, seeing as ASD people seem to find niches like that. Knowing a ton about fabrials and wanting to talk about it fits in quite well...ha, I didn't notice this when reading WoR...

 

What if the box were a kind of fabrial stim toy?

 

(And look, I'm not picking on your fan-ism!)

 

Ok I need to get that one out.... We know Renarin can talk about wine all day if you let him.... Now THAT could be his specialization... Alcoholic Renarin getting drunk while trying to sample each variety of violet wine

 

Before someone throws me a rock, I was attempting to make a joke

Edited May 20, 2014 by maxal

[Lurthemir]

Before someone through me a rock, I was attempting to make a joke

I fear for your health.

[FeatherWriter]

...look I'm not saying that I've had a fanfic idea for Renarin at a wine tasting, but I've definitely had that idea before. Kaladin accompanying him (because why miss an opportunity for Kalarin cutes, right?) And just Kaladin following Renarin around and listening as he talks about all the different kinds of wine and notes and flavors and colors and Kaladin slowly starting to realize that Renarin is getting ramblier and kinda sleepier as the day goes on until finally Kaladin turns around to find that Renarin has fallen asleep at a table with a small tasting glass of some kind of very expensive wine in his hand still. 

 

So, Kaladin carries him back to the barracks and lets him sleep it off in a Bridge 4 bunk. Maybe Adolin comes looking for Kaladin to loudly demand where Renarin is and ask why Kaladin didn't bring him back and as soon as he walks in all of Bridge 4 like, tackles him, because "Shut up, he's sleeping! Do you want to wake him up?"

 

And everything would be cute and adorable the way Kalarin fics should be.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

That would be adorably cute. Please write it.

[lwd24era]

Yes please Brightness. Congrats on the promotion!

 

Oh also, if you had to choose between the two, which would you save from certain death: Renarin or Loki?

Edited May 19, 2014 by lwd24era

[FeatherWriter]

Renarin, no hesitation. A.) He's a better person. B.) Loki's the kind of character that has all kinds of terrible contingencies in place to bring him back from the dead in the event that it occurs. Often involving doing terrible things to other characters that I love like the jerk that he is. 

 

So yeah. Renarin. I love Loki, but he's also a terrible person who does terrible things and is really good at cheating death.

[lwd24era]

*sigh* I love Loki. I'm a villain type of guy. Loki, the Joker, Leck(from Graceling), kevin spacey in house of cards. All of dem.

[FeatherWriter]

*sigh* Me too. Especially the ones that you don't know are evil all along. Like:

 

(some Warbreaker among various other fandoms spoilers)

Agent Grant Ward from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Denth from Warbreaker, Haytham Kenway from Assassin's Creed 3, Hans from Frozen, Unalaq from Legend of Korra

 

Gotta love a good villian, right?

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

*sigh* I love Loki. I'm a villain type of guy. Loki, the Joker, Leck(from Graceling), kevin spacey in house of cards. All of dem.

Which Cosmere planet do you think the Joker would enjoy the most? I reckon the Joker on Scadrial as a Hemalurgist would be insane, he would be so OP.

[Zea mays]

...look I'm not saying that I've had a fanfic idea for Renarin at a wine tasting, but I've definitely had that idea before. Kaladin accompanying him...

Sorry to muscle in your idea Feather but I can't help but love such a scene

Renarin: ...now this violet from the Kasitor region of Iri has a robust fruity ripeness overlaid with a complex bouquet of quickweed and quivervine root. Note the nutty undertones from the stumptree barrels used for the aging process...

Kaladin *eyes him in utter bewilderment*

[FeatherWriter]

So Ellie is writing a coffeeshop AU for Stormlight Archive and I ended up pitching an idea about Renarin being a coffee conoisseur in that universe, since Kaladin runs a bakery over there. I'll put the transcript in a spoiler box so as not to clog the chat, but it ended up being a pretty cute idea. Warning, it does have Kalarin in it:

 

[3/29/2014 4:14:49 PM] Feather: So... in canon we have wine connoisseur Renarin.

[3/29/2014 4:14:56 PM] Feather: What if coffee connoisseur Renarin?

[3/29/2014 4:15:07 PM] Feather: And Kogi warned me that the store is more of a bakery.

[3/29/2014 4:15:32 PM] Feather: BUT, see, a huge part of coffee tastings is pairings. Like, every single coffee I tried at Starbucks had to be paired with a pastry.

[3/29/2014 4:16:07 PM] Feather: So what if Renarin keeps finding all these different kinds of coffees and brings in beans to brew, and he always wants to figure out which of Kaladin's pastries would pair well with it?

[3/29/2014 4:16:27 PM] Ellie: Kaladin makes pretty terrible coffee but Renarin might hold him to a higher standard

[3/29/2014 4:16:35 PM] Ellie: (FYI, Renarin is gluten intolerant)

[3/29/2014 4:16:39 PM] Feather: Awwww

[3/29/2014 4:16:51 PM] Feather: Does Kaladin make gluten free things for him?

[3/29/2014 4:17:00 PM] Ellie: (And for some ~mysterious reason~ Kaladin's shop keeps getting more gluten free options)

[3/29/2014 4:17:08 PM] Feather: Eeeexcellent.

[3/29/2014 4:17:13 PM] Ellie: (Only after served special to his secret taste tester)

[3/29/2014 4:18:39 PM] Feather: I just had this idea of like at least once a week Renarin comes in with a new bag of beans to grind (and Kaladin probably keeps a French press around so that he can make his own batch) and Kaladin just... really doesn't get the coffee thing, but he'll try it every time, and not just because Renarin's face is cute when it scrunches up while he's trying to pick out flavors and notes.

[3/29/2014 4:19:26 PM] Feather: "Hmmm... I think this one has some citrus notes. Maybe something with cinnamon too?" "It all just tastes like bitter water." "Shush. Do you have any cinnamon citrus things, Kaladin?"

[3/29/2014 4:21:11 PM] Ellie: It would take Renarin a long time to actually make requests

[3/29/2014 4:21:27 PM] Feather: (Yes probably. I'm thinking like... after they're together.)

[3/29/2014 4:21:35 PM] Feather: Because Kalarin is an endgame ship, right?

[3/29/2014 4:22:19 PM] Ellie: They are

[3/29/2014 4:23:11 PM] Feather: But anyway, and of course Kaladin does have the right pastry, so he cuts one up and Renarin tries a few different pairings until he finds the perfect one and then he insists that Kaladin try this one, and they work so perfectly together and "can't you just see how it brings out the more subtle flavors and the sweetness of the pastry kills the acidity of the coffee?" And Kaladin grimaces and tries it and "Oh yeah, definitely. All that stuff you said. It doesn't just taste like soggy pastry drenched in bitter at all." And Renarin just laughs a bit and maybe kisses him and while Kaladin sure as hell doesn't like coffee there's something right about the way Renarin tastes with a little bit of coffee on his lips. Renarin is the only coffee pairing Kaladin likes.

[3/29/2014 4:23:20 PM] Feather: ...whoops that kinda turned into a fic.

[lwd24era]

:3

[Aether]

Renarin as a scholar or a warrior?

I will still argue (and will probably continue to argue to the grave) that Renarin has a scholarly mindset. He's analytical and he works through his problems in a very logical and scholarly way. We see multiple times throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance that he has a fascination with fabrials, often going over to inspect them or ask Navani about them. There's a moment in Words of Radiance where he notices Kaladin inspecting a fabrial and actually goes over and starts a conversation with Kaladin about it.

I keep thinking that Renarin might finally align more with his scholarly side when they rediscover how to make the ancient type of fabrial such as Soulcasters and the farials from the "Starfalls" chapter of WoK and the *cough* heavy-spoilerish scene from the end of WoR. It might turn out that he not only have the mind for it, but also the talent. A bit like Elayne and Ter'Angreals from the Wheel of Time.

 

@Aleksiel: I can't seem to find it now, but I'd swear that I read a post from Aether that included a List^TM about mentions of Renarin's box in both books.

Aether's list, that kaellok mentioned, can be found here, though as I said, it contains only quotes from Words of Radiance, so spoiler warning.

My Lists are becoming a thing!!! Yay! Notoriety!

Edited May 20, 2014 by Aether

[Gabriele]

So Ellie is writing a coffeeshop AU for Stormlight Archive and I ended up pitching an idea about Renarin being a coffee conoisseur in that universe, since Kaladin runs a bakery over there. I'll put the transcript in a spoiler box so as not to clog the chat, but it ended up being a pretty cute idea. Warning, it does have Kalarin in it:

 

 Renarin is the only coffee pairing Kaladin likes.

[3/29/2014 4:23:20 PM] Feather: ...whoops that kinda turned into a fic.

 

That made me laugh. They are cute together.

[FeatherWriter]

Kalarin is a very cute pairing. I feel silly for fighting against it for so long.

[leinton]

Kalarin took a while to grow on me, but that's just because the pure hot blackrom that was Kadolin blinded me to its cuteness. Then they interacted in WoR and both ships are perfect.

[Vanavel]

Thank you, maxal, for pretty much all your posts on this topic. I have to agree with your general sentiments about Renarin. When I think about it, I like him well enough, though I thought his part in the end of WoR was poorly handled. Still, I do not find him compelling: he may have hidden complexity, but hitherto he doesn't interest me in particular. The end of WoR actually made me like him less because it seemed so abrupt! 

 

However, it does make me sad that he does not want to be a scholar. I get that there are cultural elements at play in his feelings, but why should a scholar be worth less than a soldier?! (Except perhaps when the world is about to end in a catastrophic war, I suppose. Sigh.) Anyway, I think he could make great contributions through scholarship if only he could value that side of himself.

 

EDIT:

Oh! And one more point of agreement with maxal: I am not excited about a Szeth book. If anyone could write one I'd like, it would be Sanderson, but I'm pretty apprehensive about it. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by FeatherWriter
Please don't double post. Use the edit button please.

[maxal]

Thank you, maxal, for pretty much all your posts on this topic. I have to agree with your general sentiments about Renarin. When I think about it, I like him well enough, though I thought his part in the end of WoR was poorly handled. Still, I do not find him compelling: he may have hidden complexity, but hitherto he doesn't interest me in particular. The end of WoR actually made me like him less because it seemed so abrupt! 

 

However, it does make me sad that he does not want to be a scholar. I get that there are cultural elements at play in his feelings, but why should a scholar be worth less than a soldier?! (Except perhaps when the world is about to end in a catastrophic war, I suppose. Sigh.) Anyway, I think he could make great contributions through scholarship if only he could value that side of himself.

 

Thank you I must say that Renarin is one character that went down a notch, for me, after reading WoR. I liked him more after WoK than I did now after WoR. I suppose this is expected as some story plots just interests one person more than another.

 

I was sad too to see him reject so blatantly is possible carrier as a scholar even if it involves becoming an ardent. Although, I do understand why he does it. Being a warrior is everything to the Alethki society and Renarin has this strong desire to prove himself worthy of his family. I have always find it strange he gets along so well with his brother... It takes a rare character, I must admit, to not feel at least some jealousy. I think Dalinar reflects upon that in WoK at some point, him who was so jealous of his own brother.

 

 

EDIT:

Oh! And one more point of agreement with maxal: I am not excited about a Szeth book. If anyone could write one I'd like, it would be Sanderson, but I'm pretty apprehensive about it. 

 

Szeth is one of the character I have the least interest in. Whereas his story do have some appeal, I just don't like him Well, that is not entirely true, I like him as a villain, I think he is a good villain, but the prospect of reading an entire book dedicated to him is scary. I hope Brandon can pull it of and make me like him.....

[LuzdeTormenta]

There's Renarin love out there alright:

 

http://www.adagio.com/signature_blend/blend.html?blend=53064

 

Sounds yummy