Why so little Renarin love?

[lwd24era]

Thank you Feather(:

Oh but FYI guys and gals, I don't care about spoilers. It's all good.

[Aleksiel]

She gets on my nerves at times, so yes I understand you

 

 

 

I hope you are right, but to be honest I was so not thrill about Szeth chapters so far.... I cannot even muster to feel pity for him I sincerely hope you are right. I was anxious about reading a book about Shallan and I turned out liking it, so I will give Szeth a chance, but as of now, he indeed is on my "hate list"

 

Elhokar? Really? The only potential character growth I see for him is going evil.............. And I must admit, I am kind of hoping for it... For me, the worst turn off would be him becoming KR as I sincerely do not see him having any of the required qualities. He is a whinny, self-pitying man who sees himself as a perpetual victim. He does nothing to get out of it (or to improve) and I believe Kal was right: he should just give up the throne to his uncle. He even creates one assassination attempt just to get his uncle's attention. To me, this screams spoiled attention seeker child in bright letters and at 27 years old, it is quite pathetic.

 

Actually, I do not agree with you on Ren character's growth. It is pretty straight forward for him: he will become a powerful and respected Radiant. He will find his place in the world. He will find how to useful despite not being a warrior. It has all been written out in advance. How boring Now Adolin.... We just don't know how that one will turn out.  We don't know if he'll ever manage to get a spren, we don't know how he'll deal with what he needs to deal with, we don't know if he'll turn evil, we don't even know if he'll survive the series..... He is, in my view, a much much more interesting character than Renarin will ever be which is probably why I rout so much for him.

 

Oh, but I want Elhokar to become a better king than Gavilar! (Yeah, it's more likely for Deanerys to finally go to Westeros, but I don't care, me just wants  ) He tries, he really does. He's just so... uh, preoccupied by his paranoia and desire to be like Gavilar, that he hasn't shown much of himself. I don't want him to be evil. He just tries too much to be liked by everyone (which leads him to occasionally snap and do impulsive stupid things, because he had suppressed so much for too long), he's crushed by Dalinar presence and everyone's expectations. 

 

He also seems too happy to be away from his wife, so there's something there, probably a forced marriage and may be more. His mother doesn't think well of him. His sister (warning: real huge spoiler, don't be tempted, just don't )

just suffered the faith he's been fearing for years

He has no friends. His uncle is a tyrant, who just has to have it his way. Elhokar doesn't have any wise adviser at his side, he doesn't trust his clerks much, so he probably hasn't asked any of them to read to him any books to improve himself. If, of course, any female scholars took interest in writing about good rulers, laws, government, etc. Elhokar is denied to wisdom of the past and has no present support, no good example, but his dead father.

 

Remember how Jasnah told Shallan Vargo would have been praised in the old days for the peace he has provided his people, but in the age when war is valued, he's underestimated? Elhokar was able to keep the country, freshly founded, together. All those bloodthirsty, greedy, cunning, plotting, selfish and greedy highprinces stayed under his rule. He managed to survive for six years and keep Alethkar together. Dalinar has an army, spies, guards he assigned the king. But Elhokar doesn't have any of those things. His power is an illusion, a shadow on the wall. Yet he had managed to keep that illusion, demand some things (more and more as the books progress) from the highprinces and still be the only one they can agree to have on the throne. 

 

Sure, we see him moan and whine through Dalinar's eyes (and Kal being so judgmental, as if he's so much better in his whining, ugh), but don't let it blind you for what his accomplishments. He has potential and has achieved much. The guy with no real power manages to get his way in court. He has no army or way to make highprinces obey him, yet they don't go against him. 

 

Adolin is a very interesting character, I agree. But Ren's growth isn't that predictable.

 As a Radiant, he could cure himself from what prevents him from being a warrior, it's about how you see yourself remember? And he'll get a Plate (someday). So, unless he chooses not to fight, he'll be a warrior. If he stays scholarly, what will he do? What will he discover? What will his visions show him? What will he do about those visions, will he share them openly in future? Will he get squires? What will he chose to do with his surges? Plenty of questions that can lead to different outcomes.

 

edit: spelling

Edited May 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[lwd24era]

Oh! Feather, may I base an Immortal off of you?

 

EDIT: An Immortal is a god/goddess in my book world. 

Edited May 18, 2014 by lwd24era

[FeatherWriter]

Oh harmony, I'd be flattered. That's very kind of you lwd! Send me a link if you ever post it anywhere!

 

I agree with Aleksiel on the Elhokar thing, but that's possibly because I see a lot of Loki parallels in trying to be a good king but probably having the responsibility thrust upon him before he was ready for it and messing things up even in his good intentions. He really does try and I think he really does care about his country, but he's got some learning to do. Dalinar tries to help, but Dalinar also has his own agendas and while Dalinar's probably keeping people safe and doing good things, having his uncle walk all over him in order to do so is not good for Elhokar, I don't think. 

[maxal]

 

Adolin is a very interesting character, I agree. But Ren's growth isn't that predictable.

 As a Radiant, he could cure himself from what prevents him from being a warrior, it's about how you see yourself remember? And he'll get a Plate (someday). So, unless he chooses not to fight, he'll be a warrior. If he stays scholarly, what will he do? What will he discover? What will his visions show him? What will he do about those visions, will he share them openly in future? Will he get squires? What will he chose to do with his surges? Plenty of questions that can lead to different outcomes.

 

edit: spelling

 

I think all you are saying is predictable.

We know Ren is a KR. We know he will survive the series. We know he will get important enough to get his own book. We know he will overcome whatever ails him.

 

Now what would be a nice character growth for Renarin is if his secretive nature, his reluctance to actually share his knowledge would endanger those he loves. What if he somehow takes on the bad role, if he accidentally hurt his family? I do not believe he would do it on purpose, but his inaction could cause something along the sort. Worse what if Renarin inadvertently pushes his own brother down the edge?

 

That would be the kind of character development I would love seeing, but it is highly improbable. Renarin is set for the underdog becoming great and never being wrong story line.

[lwd24era]

YAY!!! Thank you brightness.

 

EDIT: It won't be done for a good long while, but of course I will if you wish it. Also can I join the Featherblades?

Edited May 18, 2014 by lwd24era

[kaellok]

@Maxal:  WoB is that a character with "a book" does not have to be alive; they may die before their book comes around.  The point of the book per character is to show their background and history and motivations, so that their actions or inactions make more sense in the grand scheme of things.  There is also absolutely no reason to believe that he will survive the series.

SERIOUSLY, JUST READ WOR.  DON'T CLICK IF YOU HAVEN'T!

I find it highly unlikely that all of the "first wave" Radiants will survive, or have happy endings.  Those that do survive the first five books, I think will have an even higher chance of death in the back five. 

 

The stage for Adolin at the end of WoK seemed to be pretty much 100% predictable to me, and then WoR happened.  Surprisingly, even though much of Adolin in WoR was predictable, he was also far more likable--as in, I actually liked him, and more than a little bit.  A change from in WoK, where I alternated between liking and disliking him, but only to minor or moderate degrees.  By the end of WoR, I have no idea where he, as a character is going to go, and that's amazing.  Don't count Renarin out just yet even if his path seems predictable to you now.  We still have a lot of story to go yet, with twists and turns galore.  As different as Renarin is from me, I look forward to continue being surprised by him as Brandon takes him in new and interesting directions.

[maxal]

@Maxal:  WoB is that a character with "a book" does not have to be alive; they may die before their book comes around.  The point of the book per character is to show their background and history and motivations, so that their actions or inactions make more sense in the grand scheme of things.  There is also absolutely no reason to believe that he will survive the series.

SERIOUSLY, JUST READ WOR.  DON'T CLICK IF YOU HAVEN'T!

I find it highly unlikely that all of the "first wave" Radiants will survive, or have happy endings.  Those that do survive the first five books, I think will have an even higher chance of death in the back five. 

 

But but I want everyone to have a happy ending... Renarin included. Alright maybe not Elhokar, Szeth or Mr T , but I do want a happy ending for everyone else. I do not want to see anyone die.

 

I know about the WoB, but he seemed like a likely character to survive the whole series.

 

 

The stage for Adolin at the end of WoK seemed to be pretty much 100% predictable to me, and then WoR happened.  Surprisingly, even though much of Adolin in WoR was predictable, he was also far more likable--as in, I actually liked him, and more than a little bit.  A change from in WoK, where I alternated between liking and disliking him, but only to minor or moderate degrees.  By the end of WoR, I have no idea where he, as a character is going to go, and that's amazing.  Don't count Renarin out just yet even if his path seems predictable to you now.  We still have a lot of story to go yet, with twists and turns galore.  As different as Renarin is from me, I look forward to continue being surprised by him as Brandon takes him in new and interesting directions.

 

I guess you are right.  He may surprise me still and I hope he will. Maybe he could join with Mr T........ No......

[FeatherWriter]

Please, you can just call me Feather. And I do not take any sort of responsibility in who is or isn't in the Featherblades and/or their operations. To be perfectly honest, I am incredibly flattered by the fact that I have a group of bodyguards, but I'm still just a site member like the rest of you guys. Trust me, there are way cooler people for you guys to watch out for. I am like semi-cool at best. Heh, Yall are cool. We're all cool. We all like Sanderson books so we all got good taste, right? 

 

I'm with you Kae on the predictability thing. The way I see it, it might just be that I'm terrible at guessing things, but I don't find any of the characters terrible predictable. I trust that Brandon's got some twists up his sleeve for all the characters, Renarin included. (I just hope I am able to survive all these twists. Renaaaaaaaarin.)

[Lurthemir]

Honestly I can't tell where either Renarin or Adolin are going at this point. Renarin's path seems at bit more stable given the end of WoR. Adolin is in one of those position where it could go ANY direction, which will make for good plot at the beginning of Stones Unhallowed. It's kind of like their roles switched. Renarin's future, which was once uncertain, is now more concrete, and Adolin's future has a giant boulder of uncertainty blocking his way into the future, either way it will make for good plot. Oh! and there's Sanderson writing it, so we have nothing to worry about. Those Kholin boys will be fine I'm sure.

Now back to fawning over Renarin like the thread was started for and Feather has emphasized in the past.

Renarin is brave is a laid back, cool, calculating way. (If you say that cool or calculating can't be brave you're wrong ) Renarin is always looking out for those he cares for. Does this make him brave? No. What makes him brave is that even though he knows full well that he has no chance against a chasmfiend, or that WoR scene he goes for it. Why? Because he's brave. Unfortunately he does seem to think himself beneath his family, and that he need to prove himself. Which he has done enough of in my opinion.

Now I feel like I'm echoing Feather, but not doing Renarin justice so I'll let that settle for now.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Lurthemir

[lwd24era]

Please, you can just call me Feather. And I do not take any sort of responsibility in who is or isn't in the Featherblades and/or their operations. To be perfectly honest, I am incredibly flattered by the fact that I have a group of bodyguards, but I'm still just a site member like the rest of you guys. Trust me, there are way cooler people for you guys to watch out for. I am like semi-cool at best. Heh, Yall are cool. We're all cool. We all like Sanderson books so we all got good taste, right? 

 

I'm with you Kae on the predictability thing. The way I see it, it might just be that I'm terrible at guessing things, but I don't find any of the characters terrible predictable. I trust that Brandon's got some twists up his sleeve for all the characters, Renarin included. (I just hope I am able to survive all these twists. Renaaaaaaaarin.)

I apologize Feather, I shall try may best to remember to in the future.

[FeatherWriter]

Nah, no need to apologize. It just gets lonely getting put up on the pedestal. I prefer just being one of the group, any day, every day. 

 

And Luth, the best way to get better at appreciating characters, any of them, is practice, haha. Pick someone to love and find out all the things that are awesome about them! And Renarin's a great pick, if he's the one you want!

[Lurthemir]

I'll defend any character if they deserve it, and right now Renarin deserves it.

[lwd24era]

Nah, no need to apologize. It just gets lonely getting put up on the pedestal. I prefer just being one of the group, any day, every day. 

 

As you wish. (although it will be a LONG time before I think of you as an equal. Sorry, fatal flaw I guess.)

[RenegadeShroom]

Okay, hold up. Maxal, you don't see how Renarin is brave? Full disclosure here, I'm not a Renarin fan. I may even go out of my way to ignore him just to annoy a certain moderator here! But objectively, Renarin is pretty brave. Facing your fears, confronting them and standing up to people or things that could very easily kill you because of your relative weakness is incredibly brave. Renarin faces his fears, despite lack of training or combat experience and ability, in spite of his mental condition, on two seperate occasions that I can remember and it's incredibly brave.

 

Regardless of whether you think his behaviour on said occasions was laced with a touch of... silliness, shall we say? Speaking objectively, Renarin isn't lacking in bravery at all, based on what we've seen in the text.

[FeatherWriter]

lwd... did you just... change your icon to a Loki icon. Did. Did you just. *squints* Is someone telling you all of the things that I am completely obsessed with so that you can just casually bring them up and make me think you're awesome? Did you read the Renarin/Loki parallels essay already? Because that is a thing that I wrote a little while ago.

 

Also, WHOA HEY IS THAT SHROOM. Dang, my arch rival and sworn enemy forever came out of his perpetual lurk-i-tude on 17S in order to defend my opinions about Renarin??? I feel like this is a victory for me. I feel like I have won. Shroom is posting and supporting me in my Renarin thing. This is weird. I feel like the world is ending or something. What game are you playing, Shroom? WHAT GAAAME?

 

...oh braize it all, this means I owe you or something doesn't it? Curses.

[lwd24era]

XD lol Isaw it on deviant art while rping and loved it. It's a KITTTYYYY. mmmm I wanna play wit him. 

 

EDIT: WAIT. YOU HAVE A LOKI RENARIN ESSAY??? WHERE! I MUST READ THIS.

 

EDIT 2: eh. I like my purple link better. Tradition.

Edited May 18, 2014 by lwd24era

[FeatherWriter]

You're in luck, it's not even spoilery because it was written before Words of Radiance released! See, there was a faction going around for a while thinking that Renairn might turn out to be evil or an antihero. And I definitely disagreed with that, so I had to write a little something up: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4516-new-info-renarins-spren/page-2#entry72309

 

Also, because I seem to have a "type" when it comes to characters like this, beneathsilverstars once drew me a picture of Renarin, Loki, Unalaq (from Legend of Korra), and Luigi playing Risk together because the idea came up in the midst of a very strange night of chatting. (You should definitely visit Silver's blog because her sidebar image is Kaladin as a magical boy complete with bows and everything and it is beautiful.)

 

[lwd24era]

Awesome! I will definitely check did out.

[Aleksiel]

I think all you are saying is predictable.

We know Ren is a KR. We know he will survive the series. We know he will get important enough to get his own book. We know he will overcome whatever ails him.

 

Now what would be a nice character growth for Renarin is if his secretive nature, his reluctance to actually share his knowledge would endanger those he loves. What if he somehow takes on the bad role, if he accidentally hurt his family? I do not believe he would do it on purpose, but his inaction could cause something along the sort. Worse what if Renarin inadvertently pushes his own brother down the edge?

 

That would be the kind of character development I would love seeing, but it is highly improbable. Renarin is set for the underdog becoming great and never being wrong story line.

 

I thought Adolin was set for the Golden boy story line, but plot-twist. I also thought I knew what Kal would be doing (not that he didn't fulfill my expectations in the end, but in the middle of WoR I was very surprised by his choices). Eshonai, Ren, Rysn, Shallan - all of them went through things/made choices I didn't foresee. Overall, Brandon keeps surprising me. At this point Adolin's future seems more predictable to me - he will whine internally about his new position, feel uncomfortable, lost, even hurt, look for new ways to prove himself, his self-esteem will be pretty low for a while...

 

Ren, now he could do anything. Will people go to him and will he accept or turn them away? Will he discover what broke the Radiants or Vargo's plans? Ren so far has been at the background of the story. All we know is he loves his brother and father unconditionally (so if things between Adoli and him fall apart for a while as I suspect, that'd be a huge stress and pain for Renarin), he also wants to prove himself worthy and be a warrior. At the moment, he's scholarly, which isn't masculine (will he refound the men of letters Nohadon spoke of? I'm so excited about this idea) and he has a blasphemous power.Will he explore it or shy away as far as possible? 

 

I'm also over-exited, because

Truthwatchers is by far my favorite Order. The best surge combination imo, green is my favorite color, their attributes are plain awesome (equal awesome to Elsecallers, but their surges are nowhere near as exiting to me as the Truthwatchers'), I love the description of the members, the passive foresight (my favorite superpower)... Overall, the Order I'd chose for myself.

And I just can't wait to explore everything about them through Ren's eyes.  

[LuzdeTormenta]

Overall, I think he just gets overshadowed by the other characters and by all the fast paced action. I know when I read the books I really felt pulled to finish faster and missed some things, though I did think Renarin's character was intriguing. In future books I think he will be in the spotlight more.

[Gabriele]

 I hate Szeth. I am not thrilled about having to read a book about him. It better be good

 

Yeah, but Sanderson may be able to pull a Jaime Lannister on him.

 

I think Renarin is often overthinking stuff due to his low spectrum autism, and only if someone he cares for is in danger, he throws all thinking and the What Ifs out and just acts. I would not call it reckless for him and his specific mindset - it would be reckless for Adolin to jump at a Chasmfiend without plate, and he might even be able to pull it off but I don't think the adjective fits Renarin.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Gabriele

[FeatherWriter]

Not really contributing anything, but I have to say, I'm really amused by the fact that a few of you guys have started calling him "Ren," since I'm writing a fic right now that has him trying to pass as a darkeyes and using the name Ren as he does so.

[maxal]

I thought Adolin was set for the Golden boy story line, but plot-twist. I also thought I knew what Kal would be doing (not that he didn't fulfill my expectations in the end, but in the middle of WoR I was very surprised by his choices). Eshonai, Ren, Rysn, Shallan - all of them went through things/made choices I didn't foresee. Overall, Brandon keeps surprising me. At this point Adolin's future seems more predictable to me - he will whine internally about his new position, feel uncomfortable, lost, even hurt, look for new ways to prove himself, his self-esteem will be pretty low for a while...

 

Not to keen on reading that one aren't you Maybe he won't whine so much, he didn't struck me as a whiner. I do not think he'll turn into another Kaladin The issue with Kal whiniest is mostly that he kept whining even when things got better...... I do not foresee that happening with Adolin.

 

Currently, I think his future is the most unpredictable of all characters and I certainly did not foresee him going down this path.

 

 

 

 

Ren, now he could do anything. Will people go to him and will he accept or turn them away? Will he discover what broke the Radiants or Vargo's plans? Ren so far has been at the background of the story. All we know is he loves his brother and father unconditionally (so if things between Adoli and him fall apart for a while as I suspect, that'd be a huge stress and pain for Renarin), he also wants to prove himself worthy and be a warrior. At the moment, he's scholarly, which isn't masculine (will he refound the men of letters Nohadon spoke of? I'm so excited about this idea) and he has a blasphemous power.Will he explore it or shy away as far as possible? 

 

I'm also over-exited, because

Truthwatchers is by far my favorite Order. The best surge combination imo, green is my favorite color, their attributes are plain awesome (equal awesome to Elsecallers, but their surges are nowhere near as exiting to me as the Truthwatchers'), I love the description of the members, the passive foresight (my favorite superpower)... Overall, the Order I'd chose for myself.

And I just can't wait to explore everything about them through Ren's eyes.  

 

Well, he is a Radiant now, so he will be privy to some important things. I also believe Dalinar will start to move closer to his younger son. One of his surges allows healing, he will probably develop some use there. Bottom line is I believe Renarin is in a good place now and his story appears very predictable. Will it turn out this way? Maybe not, but so far everything points towards Renarin becoming wise and important and very well alive after book 10.

 

However, I do believe things may go bad between Renarin and Adolin, but it won't really be anyone's fault... I sort of see them not really talking, misunderstanding each other... I could easily imagine Adolin being very preoccupied by we know what and avoiding his brother for fear he may guess something is wrong. I could easily see Renarin interpret this as some sort of unfair jealousy and/or rejection based on his powers. I could even see Renarin pull out a tantrum at his brother for not being supportive, for being sour because for once he is the one to have something going on, for not being there for him, etc. All of which could end up in very different way. Now that could be a Renarin I might enjoy reading about.

 

 

Yeah, but Sanderson may be able to pull a Jaime Lannister on him.

 

 

Szeth has along way to go to be a Jaime Lannister.........

 

 

 

I think Renarin is often overthinking stuff due to his low spectrum autism, and only if someone he cares for is in danger, he throws all thinking and the What Ifs out and just acts. I would not call it reckless for him and his specific mindset - it would be reckless for Adolin to jump at a Chasmfiend without plate, and he might even be able to pull it off but I don't think the adjective fits Renarin.

 

I completely agree with your assessment. Renarin is not realizing the dangers he puts himself into: he therefore cannot be acting out of bravery. As I stated, Adolin knows what he is getting himself into and yet he does while Renarin just does not see it: he acts. It is not bravery we see from him, but deep care for his family. It is a good point to bring out his autism as I think it explains well how I comprehend him.

[kaellok]

 

I completely agree with your assessment. Renarin is not realizing the dangers he puts himself into: he therefore cannot be acting out of bravery. As I stated, Adolin knows what he is getting himself into and yet he does while Renarin just does not see it: he acts. It is not bravery we see from him, but deep care for his family. It is a good point to bring out his autism as I think it explains well how I comprehend him.

Bravery can be defined as doing something foolish out of caring for others.  Really, the motivation for it is irrelevant, and that seems to be where you're putting the emphasis.  Most soldiers don't charge into battle because they're excited or fearless--they do it out of a fear of failing their comrades.  Renarin is afraid of failing his family, and so he's willing to do anything to save them.  That's brave.  You don't have to have analyzed the entire situation and determined what it happening, what the risks are, and how best to act in order for it to be brave.  I highly, highly suggest you either talk to or read real accounts of people who have been decorated for heroism, from their point of view.  Deep care is the motivation for virtually all of them.  If that can get them the highest recognition of courage and bravery in the country (no matter whose country it is, from the US and UK to Russia or China and beyond), then can we at least recognize that Renarin has demonstrated bravery?

 

Another caveat: No one is brave all the time.  What someone has endured and faced dozens of times before may be too much them the next time.  We see this in real life, and in-book we saw this with the Heralds.  Saying that previous actions suddenly aren't demonstration of bravery anymore just because the scariest, most terrifying confluence of events imaginable happen to break them is false logic.  Are the Heralds not brave, because they had an option to show courage and instead walked away?