Shards for the regular men

[fractal]

I recently did a re-read of WOK and, among other things, one passage struck me as quite odd. In chapter 28 Decisions, Dalinar is thinking about whether or not to abdicate. While walking around in his camp and inspired by the Codes, he starts to help his men building a latrine, still wearing his Shardplate (great chapter by the way, it always gets me). Somewhere in the process of digging he thinks:

Quote

'Where were the Shards for regular men? Why hadn’t the ancients, who were so wise,
created anything to help them? As Dalinar continued to work, beats of his hammer
throwing chips and dust into the air, he easily did the work of twenty men. Shardplate could
be used for so many things to ease the lives of workers and darkeyes across Roshar.'

WOK - chp. 28

Has anyone an idea what such 'regular shards' could be? Could this be a reference to the half-shards or are there any other theories out there?

I looked for some WOBs regarding this, but my researching skills are still those of a lowly bridgeman, so I would really appreciate any help/ideas regarding this.

[I think I am here.]

Well, I mean, we learn a Radiant can turn their spren into anything, so you could turn them into like shovels or ‘regular shards’.

[fractal]

That‘s interesting. I hadn‘t thought about it that way. I pictured something like huge fabrial-powered constructions which anyone, not only Radiants, could use. Something the Heralds (or Radiants) thought the common people in order to help them survive a long time ago, and which are now forgotten. 

But maybe it ’just’ means that KR don’t have to be fighters all the time but also can use there powers for more common work - and helping people in general, not only in war times. So thanks for the new perspective  

[Guest Edonidd]

When he says "where are..."  I got the impression that he was wondering why they didn't make them, not that he is actually looking for long lost shards for regular people.   I'm not sure if that's what you're asking or not?

[fractal]

Yeah I agree with you that he was just wondering. I didn‘t think that Dalinar would look for something like that. But I thought that maybe there is something more behind this - some kind of forshaddowing to some shard-like devices that could be used by anyone like fabrials can. 

Probably just my interpretation getting ahead of things. 

[Spoolofwhool]

Dalinar was just wondering why shardplate and shardblades were only for fighting, and why there weren't any which could be more useful for workers to use. He wasn't saying that there were actually any shards for non-fighting in any living record that he was hoping to find.

[ScavellTane]

Well, the ancient Singers probably use Shard/Spren for everyday living.

[Corax]

Of course he's just wondering, that's obvious. But often Brandon's characters wonder about things that are meaningful as foreshadowing. It is possible that this is something that just crosses his mind and means nothing. Or it just demonstrates how he is growing as a person and beginning to think of more than war and conquest. It's also possible that it hints at things to come.

My personal guess, if it is foreshadowing, is that perhaps there are far more shardblades around that are being used for mundane purposes like stonemasonry, precision gem-cutting, etc. I'd imagine that the common people who have them and use them like that would keep it under wraps. Maybe go so far as to employ those darkeye drops. Not everyone's dream is to be a lighteyed warrior. I bet more people would be interested in keeping shards a secret part of a successful business. (And yes this is baseless speculation... But my point is that there are things that could be implied by a simple passing thought.)

Edited September 9, 2018 by Corax
Typo correction

[ScavellTane]

The problem would likely be with the fixed size of a shardblade.

[Guest Edonidd]

7 minutes ago, Corax said:

Of course he's just wondering, that's obvious. But often Brandon's characters wonder about things that are meaningful as foreshadowing. It is possible that this is something that just crosses his mind and means nothing. Or it just demonstrates how he is growing as a person and beginning to think of more than war and conquest. It's also possible that it hints at things to come.

My personal guess, if it is foreshadowing, is that perhaps there are far more shardblades around that are being used for mundane purposes like stonemasonry, precision gem-cutting, etc. I'd imagine that the common people who have them and use them like that would keep it under wraps. Maybe go so far as to employ those darkeye drops. Not everyone's dream is to be a lighteyed warrior. I bet more people would be interested in keeping shards a secret part of a successful business. (And yes this is baseless speculation... But my point is that there are things that could be implied by a simple passing thought.)

 

Dark eyes need to get all the way to 2nd Nahn before they're even considered full citizens with the right to travel.  Shareholders are automatically granted the rank of 4th Dahn, which puts them right below the children of highprinces.  When Kaladin flies Dalinar our to Thaylen city for the first time, he is told about the swath of land he has been granted as a 4th dahn shareholder.  It has several villages on it and from the sounds of it at least one is bigger than Hearthstone where he grew up.  Evi ran away from her country and didn't bring any soldiers or prestige or alliances or anything with her.  Except for 1 set of shardplate.  That was enough to have highprince Galinor pretty much force his brother Dalinar to marry her.

 

You think somebody is gonna keep that a secret so they can run a successful stonemasonry business?

[Fanghur Rahl]

4 hours ago, fractal said:

I recently did a re-read of WOK and, among other things, one passage struck me as quite odd. In chapter 28 Decisions, Dalinar is thinking about whether or not to abdicate. While walking around in his camp and inspired by the Codes, he starts to help his men building a latrine, still wearing his Shardplate (great chapter by the way, it always gets me). Somewhere in the process of digging he thinks:

Has anyone an idea what such 'regular shards' could be? Could this be a reference to the half-shards or are there any other theories out there?

I looked for some WOBs regarding this, but my researching skills are still those of a lowly bridgeman, so I would really appreciate any help/ideas regarding this.

At the time, Dalinar had no idea what Shardblades actually were; he thought they were just some kind of highly advanced magitech, not that they were the Spren of Radiants. And given that assumption, it makes sense to wonder why similar tools weren’t  created for more mundane tasks as well. But it’s a false assumption, and I have a very hard time imagining that a sapient Spren would be eager to allow themselves to be used in such a way; I certainly wouldn’t if I were a Spren.

[fractal]

23 minutes ago, Corax said:

My personal guess, if it is foreshadowing, is that perhaps there are far more shardblades around that are being used for mundane purposes like stonemasonry, precision gem-cutting, etc. I'd imagine that the common people who have them and use them like that would keep it under wraps. Maybe go so far as to employ those darkeye drops. Not everyone's dream is to be a lighteyed warrior. I bet more people would be interested in keeping shards a secret part of a successful business. (And yes this is baseless speculation... But my point is that there are things that could be implied by a simple passing thought.)

Interesting point. I was not thinking about how such shards could be used right now (meaning present time-line) to improve the everyday life. The hunch I got was that there has been something in the past which had helped humans in previous desolations survive the wars or something like this. But I like your thought.
I have to remind myself all the time that the Alethi world view isn't the only one represented on Roshar. Like how the Shin see people who pick up weapons as the lowest in their social system and celebrate farmers like the Alethi do lighteyes. So maybe they would be interested in some device like this.

 

 

[fractal]

8 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

At the time, Dalinar had no idea what Shardblades actually were; he thought they were just some kind of highly advanced magitech, not that they were the Spren of Radiants. And given that assumption, it makes sense to wonder why similar tools weren’t  created for more mundane tasks as well. But it’s a false assumption, and I have a very hard time imagining that a sapient Spren would be eager to allow themselves to be used in such a way; I certainly wouldn’t if I were a Spren.

 

Yeah you're right. That's also worth thinking about. I can't really picture a Sylshovel. So probably just a comment from Dalinar, which shows us how he is trying to or beginning to question his beliefs. I just got the impression that somehow there was more behind it - like devices that work in a very similar way as shards do, but also accessibly by people without a Nahel bond. But now I've realized that fabrials are pretty much devices like this.

[Corax]

Quote

You think somebody is gonna keep that a secret so they can run a successful stonemasonry business?

 

Yes. I imagine plenty of these completely hypothetical people are about the level of business owners and tenners. Just because you could engage in social climbing with your super handy, priceless business tool doesn't mean you want to. I wouldn't want to, if it were me. Most people aren't warriors and don't want to be. Even in Alethkar. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 minute ago, Corax said:

Yes. I imagine plenty of these completely hypothetical people are about the level of business owners and tenners. Just because you could engage in social climbing with your super handy, priceless business tool doesn't mean you want to. I wouldn't want to, if it were me. Most people aren't warriors and don't want to be. Even in Alethkar. 

Plus, I’m pretty sure even a single Shardblade would be worth orders of magnitude more than what any stonemason business (or even a coalition of them for that matter) could possibly make. 

[Corax]

I'm not saying it's the only option. It's a top-of-my head musing. The point is that the shards are extremely useful tools that could be put, as Dalinar notes, to many uses.

If I were, say, a tenner in Alethkar, and I had a Shardblade in my possession, I would not want to use it for war. They're priceless, you don't sell them. I would be a terrible fighter and moreover at least half of all Alethi would never be considered worthy/capable Shardbearers simply because of their sex. So yes. I would keep the thing that is essentially impossible to sell and use it in some other way if I could.

[ReaderAt2046]

22 hours ago, Corax said:

Of course he's just wondering, that's obvious. But often Brandon's characters wonder about things that are meaningful as foreshadowing. It is possible that this is something that just crosses his mind and means nothing. Or it just demonstrates how he is growing as a person and beginning to think of more than war and conquest. It's also possible that it hints at things to come.

My personal guess, if it is foreshadowing, is that perhaps there are far more shardblades around that are being used for mundane purposes like stonemasonry, precision gem-cutting, etc. I'd imagine that the common people who have them and use them like that would keep it under wraps. Maybe go so far as to employ those darkeye drops. Not everyone's dream is to be a lighteyed warrior. I bet more people would be interested in keeping shards a secret part of a successful business. (And yes this is baseless speculation... But my point is that there are things that could be implied by a simple passing thought.)

Another idle thought that may be relevant: Back in the Feverstone Keep vision in Way Of Kings, Dalinar notes that there are less than a hundred known Shardblades in Roshar, whereas there are at least two hundred just being held by the Knights in front of him. And those knights only represented two Orders. Even assuming that those two hundred represented the entirety of the Windrunners and Stonewards, and that the other seven orders (less the Bondsmiths, for obvious reasons), only averaged half that (fifty Knights apiece), that's still upwards of four hundred and fifty Shardblades completely unaccounted for. 

[cfphelps]

The way I read it is at this point in time Dalinar doesn't know that shards are spren, so he thinks of them as powerful artifacts that were created by the ancient advanced civilization of the past.  The only shards he knows about are swords and plate armor, which he sees only war/fighting as the applications for.

So he's wondering why the ancient advanced civilization didn't create such tools to enable people to create/build things.  He seems that the extra strength and endurance of his plate armor makes it so he can dig the entire latrine considerably faster than a work crew, and thinks that it is strange that there aren't similar shards that would enable the "regular man" (read as non-soldier) to do their profession more easily.

[supersmith]

Radiants can change there blade to anything, so why are there only dead swords? why didn't some of the spren die as bows, or sheilds, or spears or shovels or whatever the knights were using?  

[Corax]

40 minutes ago, supersmith said:

Radiants can change there blade to anything, so why are there only dead swords? why didn't some of the spren die as bows, or sheilds, or spears or shovels or whatever the knights were using?  

Brandon has actually answered this, and it's to do with the fact that the spren based what they were doing on the Honorblades. Magically enforced thematics, if you will.

I agree with @ReaderAt2046 that it's implied that there should be far more Blades in existence than modern Rosharans are aware of.

[RShara]

On 9/9/2018 at 9:24 AM, ScavellTane said:

The problem would likely be with the fixed size of a shardblade.

Do you mean dead Shardblades or Sprenblades? Because Sprenblades can definitely change size.

[Spoolofwhool]

26 minutes ago, RShara said:

Do you mean dead Shardblades or Sprenblades? Because Sprenblades can definitely change size.

The current discussion is about common people secretly having dead sprenblades, which would be problematic for usual work due to their size.

[Corax]

57 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The current discussion is about common people secretly having dead sprenblades, which would be problematic for usual work due to their size.

Yup. Honestly that's where my biggest doubt lies. It's easy to hide a Shardblade, except for when you're actually using it. That being said, a bulky super tool would still be superior to no super tool. 

And the more I think about it, the more I suspect Shardblades (say, fixed onto a table like you might a saw or laser-cutter) are the secret to how chip-sized gems are cut in spite of their otherwise prohibitively small size.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Corax
Minor correction

[galendo]

On 9/9/2018 at 8:24 AM, ScavellTane said:

The problem would likely be with the fixed size of a shardblade.

That and if you slip when you're using a regular knife, you've got a nick on your hand.  Slip when you're using a Shardblade, and you're no longer a craftsman.

On 9/9/2018 at 9:06 AM, fractal said:

 

Yeah you're right. That's also worth thinking about. I can't really picture a Sylshovel. So probably just a comment from Dalinar, which shows us how he is trying to or beginning to question his beliefs. I just got the impression that somehow there was more behind it - like devices that work in a very similar way as shards do, but also accessibly by people without a Nahel bond. But now I've realized that fabrials are pretty much devices like this.

See, I can totally picture a Sylshovel.  I mean, she'd give Kaladin smack for it, but I'd guess Syl would be down for that, especially if it meant protecting people.  And Wyndle didn't seem to object -- too much -- to becoming a Shardfork.

[CrazyRioter]

9 hours ago, Corax said:

Yup. Honestly that's where my biggest doubt lies. It's easy to hide a Shardblade, except for when you're actually using it. That being said, a bulky super tool would still be superior to no super tool. 

And the more I think about it, the more I suspect Shardblades (say, fixed onto a table like you might a saw or laser-cutter) are the secret to how chip-sized gems are cut in spite of their otherwise prohibitively small size.

I expect that chips are just leftovers from cutting larger gems, rather than tiny gems cut in there own right. You wouldn't be able to use a dead sprenblade for that purpose anyway, it is too big for the precision required.