Shallan - Like or Dislike?

[Vissy]

I have mixed feelings about Shallan. I think that she is a distinctly immoral person, on every objective scale you can measure, she is callous, short-sighted, obsessed with lies, but that she is also warm-hearted, kind, even sympathetic. She doesn't want to be a lying snake who just manipulates people, and though she sometimes does this, I don't think it's what she's going for. It's not some cold-hearted resolve to manipulate people for her own ends.

However, much like the others here, I really think the worst of her comes out when you look at her childhood. I wouldn't blame her - just like I wouldn't blame some kid for finding a gun and accidentally shooting at their parent with it.

[Yata]

37 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

I wouldn't blame her - just like I wouldn't blame some kid for finding a gun and accidentally shooting at their parent with it.

You have to add: "shooting at her parent, while this parent try to kill her"
 

Honestly Shallan is a complex character, she was broken before all the mess we know of her family happened....I can't really try to figure how her psyche is right now.
One of the Oathbringer's evolution I want to see more, it's about her and her new development now she forced her mental block

[Vissy]

Yeah, we also have to remember that none of the characters are done developing yet. Shallan in particular strikes me as a tough nut to crack; she's going to need a ton of character development in the future.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Rob Lucci

[maxal]

15 hours ago, PlanetReelo said:

That's a very good point! I hadn't thought about it that way. I think whilst reading WoK, all I could see was a stark contrast between Kaladin fighting for his and the bridgemen's lives, whilst Shallan seemed self absorbed and conniving in her deception. That bias stuck with me, but it was slowly undone in WoR, where I found myself really enjoying the flaws in characters, including Kaladin and Shallan. So i'm very much on the fence with her at the moment!

In my personal experience with the series, I would say I have noticed readers have an easier time forgiving Kaladin for his own misgivings than they do for Shallan. I suspect the fact Kaladin's story is more external and involves him directly influencing the lives of others (the bridgemen) makes him de facto more sympathetic than Shallan. Shallan's goals are very similar when you look at them: all she wants is to safeguard her brothers. Her father is dead, she killed him, but more importantly, he is dead. Killing him uprooted the fact he has been hiding the source of their new fortune: a borrowed soulcaster and now the borrowers want it back. They don't have it anymore: it has been broken. Shall the truth ever come out, her brothers might pay with their lives. The faith of House Davar is terrible: it isn't just a matter of having enough money, it is a matter of survival. They can't run, they can't escape. There only chance is having Shallan find a replacement for the soulcaster which is something none of the boys can do as none can realistically get close enough to a soulcaser owner to steal it.

Shallan isn't being petty, lying and conniving out of personal pleasure: she hates having to do it. The only reason she targeted Jasnah Kholin was because she is one of the only known living human being owning a soulcaster without being tied to the Ardentia. She thus is, and by far, the only logical pick for Shallan to try to save her brothers. She also naively though Jasnah being a heretic would automatically make her a bad person: she did not expect to like her, much less to respect her. It is why the thug killing scene is important, because it is one bad thing Jasnah does which helps Shallan go with her plan.

Of course, us the readers, would have preferred had she talked to Jasnah before hand, but to what end? How could 17 years old Shallan figure out Jasnah Kohlin would be willing to help her? At all? That she would care? Nobody ever cared about House Davar, why would Alethkar's princess give a damnation?

It is all very complex but somehow, Shallan often falls onto the bad side of readers. Kaladin does bad things too, such as being pleased Lamaril got hanged for his own failed strategy but because his actions are directly link to an improvement in other people's life, he get to be sympathetic. Shallan's family just does not have a large role to play in the story, so we do not get to see what Shallan is working for, who she is working for and the fruit of her effort. This might change in book 3 though.

3 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I have mixed feelings about Shallan. I think that she is a distinctly immoral person, on every objective scale you can measure, she is callous, short-sighted, obsessed with lies, but that she is also warm-hearted, kind, even sympathetic. She doesn't want to be a lying snake who just manipulates people, and though she sometimes does this, I don't think it's what she's going for. It's not some cold-hearted resolve to manipulate people for her own ends.

However, much like the others here, I really think the worst of her comes out when you look at her childhood. I wouldn't blame her - just like I wouldn't blame some kid for finding a gun and accidentally shooting at their parent with it.

They all have their flaws....

Kaladin is self-centered, arrogant, vengeful, prejudiced and short-sighted.

Dalinar is rigid, obsessed with his rules, hypocritical and unfair in his love.

Renarin is short-sighted, self-centered/selfish, spoiled and rigid.

Shallan is no more nor less flawed than the other known Radiants. Despite being immoral, ruthless and manipulating, she is also goal oriented, pragmatic and completely selfless. 

I have always found it fascinating to watch readers having a harder with her than with the other characters.

[Vissy]

I think her frustratingly boring backstory segments had something to do with that. I found myself just straightout skipping through them to get to the good parts of WoR.

[PlanetReelo]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

In my personal experience with the series, I would say I have noticed readers have an easier time forgiving Kaladin for his own misgivings than they do for Shallan. I suspect the fact Kaladin's story is more external and involves him directly influencing the lives of others (the bridgemen) makes him de facto more sympathetic than Shallan. Shallan's goals are very similar when you look at them: all she wants is to safeguard her brothers. Her father is dead, she killed him, but more importantly, he is dead. Killing him uprooted the fact he has been hiding the source of their new fortune: a borrowed soulcaster and now the borrowers want it back. They don't have it anymore: it has been broken. Shall the truth ever come out, her brothers might pay with their lives. The faith of House Davar is terrible: it isn't just a matter of having enough money, it is a matter of survival. They can't run, they can't escape. There only chance is having Shallan find a replacement for the soulcaster which is something none of the boys can do as none can realistically get close enough to a soulcaser owner to steal it.

Shallan isn't being petty, lying and conniving out of personal pleasure: she hates having to do it. The only reason she targeted Jasnah Kholin was because she is one of the only known living human being owning a soulcaster without being tied to the Ardentia. She thus is, and by far, the only logical pick for Shallan to try to save her brothers. She also naively though Jasnah being a heretic would automatically make her a bad person: she did not expect to like her, much less to respect her. It is why the thug killing scene is important, because it is one bad thing Jasnah does which helps Shallan go with her plan.

Of course, us the readers, would have preferred had she talked to Jasnah before hand, but to what end? How could 17 years old Shallan figure out Jasnah Kohlin would be willing to help her? At all? That she would care? Nobody ever cared about House Davar, why would Alethkar's princess give a damnation?

It is all very complex but somehow, Shallan often falls onto the bad side of readers. Kaladin does bad things too, such as being pleased Lamaril got hanged for his own failed strategy but because his actions are directly link to an improvement in other people's life, he get to be sympathetic. Shallan's family just does not have a large role to play in the story, so we do not get to see what Shallan is working for, who she is working for and the fruit of her effort. This might change in book 3 though.

They all have their flaws....

Kaladin is self-centered, arrogant, vengeful, prejudiced and short-sighted.

Dalinar is rigid, obsessed with his rules, hypocritical and unfair in his love.

Renarin is short-sighted, self-centered/selfish, spoiled and rigid.

Shallan is no more nor less flawed than the other known Radiants. Despite being immoral, ruthless and manipulating, she is also goal oriented, pragmatic and completely selfless. 

I have always found it fascinating to watch readers having a harder with her than with the other characters.

I think this is where the differences in our opinions are. I personally don't think that giving your all to save your kin automatically makes you a 'good person'. To me that's a given, and doesn't earn you a pat on your back - a natural human instinct if you will. Kaladin was also desperate to save Tien. But just as you put it, Kaladin's story involves him 'directly influencing the lives of others'. It takes far greater strength of character to give your all to save the lives of people who you have not formed a bond with (though he does eventually). You could argue that what Kaladin did was in a way selfish as he was trying to make up for the events of his past in the army, but it doesn't change the fact that the outcome was ultimately a very positive one. Lamaril was an obstacle in the survival of Kaladin and his bridgecrew. With the level of suffering more or less caused indirectly by Lamaril, it's no wonder Kaladin felt the way he did at his death. If you view Shallan's actions as a 'means to an end' as you seem to, then criticising Kal for this makes no sense. You also seem very sympathetic towards Shallan's bad decisions because she's only 17 years old. Remember that Kaladin has only just turned 20, and will be making imperfect decisions too. But considering that, I've always thought he does exceedingly well.

Edited December 24, 2016 by PlanetReelo

[+robardin]

I think Shallan's a great character. She lies, yes... But even, and most importantly, to herself. Her entire order is based upon that: Lighweavers "make no oaths beyond the First Ideal", instead, to advance, they must tell truths. About themself. TO themselves. That's kind of deep.

There's a reason why Syl is an "honorspren" and Pattern is a "liespren". But it's not nearly as simple as "lying is bad, being honorable is good". 

[Vissy]

There is a robust case to be made for lying to always be worse than telling the truth, even when it's white lies. I was very persuaded by the argument made in the book "Lying" by Sam Harris.

[Meganagem]

On 23/04/2014 at 3:18 AM, Chrono said:

 Also, kaellok, I am apparently one of those rare people who loved both Kaladin's and Shallan's character arcs. They were both amazing and realistic depictions on how to deal with significant trauma. I'm glad that we can all choose to respectfully disagree.

kaellok I'm with you on loving them both, so there are at least two of us on the list. Oh, sure, they both drove me nuts from time to time - Kaladin for his brooding, gloomy, prejudice and for being so slow to realise that he was breaking his oath; Shallan for lots of the reasons others have found and may find her annoying. What was annoying was that they were so real. No person is 100% likeable all of the time. And poor choices, well, we do that a lot, too. Oh, and most of us also take freaking ages to learn lessons and learn them properly, so I should go a little easier on Kal. Lots of great insights have been shared in this thread about Shallan's motives, her trauma, and understanding her with empathy. I'll only add that, yep, she doesn't hate Pattern. And she does.  

Shallan's arc was perhaps not as satisfying as Kaladin's to me, but I appreciated both lines and I'm curious to see what happens with Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin. 

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Meganagem
It was incomplete.

[PixelShard]

I have enjoyed her story more than I thought I would, I didn't feel the annoyance I did with Kaladin.

One chapter that stands out for me is the one when Kal realizes she is more broken than he is but she is smiling. The smile is a lie and    Shallen is weak, it takes strength, to tell the truth.

I actually don't believe she hates pattern but rather is coming to terms with everything and that is a hard thing to do. If she hates pattern for that moment then she should also hate herself. I think pattern loves lies, not for the lie but for the result it must produce in the KR. Telling the truth and reconciling to yourself is powerful.

[William Holz]

On 12/27/2016 at 11:59 AM, PixelShard said:

I have enjoyed her story more than I thought I would, I didn't feel the annoyance I did with Kaladin.

 

So much this.

I thought she was a nuanced, complicated character that made quite a bit of sense.  She's in WAY over her (or anyone's) head and her being cautious about what she communicates is pretty in-character.

Kaladan seemed a bit overly anti-lighteyes there for a while and it seemed like he was a bit slow to grow up, which for a while made him one of the few characters Sanderson's created that I thought felt more controlled by the needs of the story than his own persona.

[maxal]

27 minutes ago, William Holz said:

Kaladan seemed a bit overly anti-lighteyes there for a while and it seemed like he was a bit slow to grow up, which for a while made him one of the few characters Sanderson's created that I thought felt more controlled by the needs of the story than his own persona.

Yes this. I too have felt Kaladin's character arc was existing merely because Sanderson needed a vessel to justify the scenes he wanted to write. Mind, nothing wrong here, but it makes Kaladin a less satisfactory character to read, for me that is. I felt stuff happened to Kaladin because the author wanted stuff to happen and Kaladin is his main protagonist, but have too much stuff happen to the same character and he starts to lose his impact which is exactly what ended up happening for me in WoR.

[Fallen_Ash]

On 4/21/2014 at 6:02 PM, eveorjoy said:

Think your annoyance with her stems from where her story stopped in WoR. it is interesting that even though WoR was "Shallan's Book" she didn't get a complete character arc in WoR. Kaladin and Dalinar had far more complete character arcs.

Right, we haven't gotten her satisfying "leap over the chasm to rescue an entire army" moment, and we haven't seen her rise victorious and lead her people, and we haven't seen her master the winds. In fact, at the ends of WoR she's more broken and lost than ever before. But she needs to be to progress.

I know I'm coming into this two years too late, but I just joined this forum and I really wanted to talk about Shallan, so I chose here, rather than starting a new thread. 

I don't know if I have anything to add that hasn't already been said (especially by kaellok), so I'll echo that I like Shallan a lot. I like how strong she is. I like how broken she is. It's easy to compare the oh-so-noble Kaladin (who I also love and cry over all the time, don't get me wrong) with the sneaky, conniving Shallan, but you have to start by comparing their upbringings. 

Kaladin's childhood wasn't perfect, but he had a family who loved him and believed in him and taught him correct principles and tried to give him a better life. Shallan grew up in an extremely abusive household where her own mother tried to kill her, her father was a psychotic sadist, and her brothers were all varying degrees of useless. Everyone in the house likely hated her too, because Lin would hurt them when he was mad at Shallan. So there's that guilt, coupled with the guilt that perhaps her father acts the way he acts because of the pressure of covering up Shallan's actions. 

I think the fact that she managed to get through her childhood with any semblance of humanity at all is astounding. Yes, she's quicker to kill than some, yes she's superficial, yes she's a liar, but to me it's all this incredible defense mechanism she's built up because she can't let herself break. I find that amazing. She took this horrific life and turned it into something productive and useful. And she never gives up. I think that is one of my favorite qualities in a person. 

And she does honestly care about people. She would do anything for her family, even if it puts her own life at risk. She believes she's protecting the world by infiltrating the Ghostbloods and getting on to the Shattered Plains. I think she really does care about Adolin as well, because she sees he's a good person and he's kind. 

Is she selfless? Not at all. Most of what she does has ulterior motives, since she is a scholar and loves learning, but I think if she were the self-sacrificing Mother Teresa type she wouldn't be as interesting. 

Also, she's legitimately clever and witty. Which I love. But her quips are also a defense mechanism. Everything she does is to protect herself and her loved ones. And that shell cracked at the end of WoR. She doesn't get to hide anymore. And I'm both excited and terrified to see what that does to her character. 

So, I like her as a person because I believe she is inherently good, if scared and imperfect, and I like her as a character because she has a lot of room to grow. 

Also even if she and Kaladin don't end up together, I love love love the romantic tension between them and I thought it was SO skillfully done. I think they're good for each other too. She can teach him to be strong in the face of trauma and mental illness, and he can teach her to face her past and use it to become a better person. 

Hoid told her, “Keep cutting at those thorns, strong one, and make a path for the light.” If Hoid likes and believes in someone, that's good enough for me. 

[djammmer]

22 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

Right, we haven't gotten her satisfying "leap over the chasm to rescue an entire army" moment, and we haven't seen her rise victorious and lead her people, and we haven't seen her master the winds. In fact, at the ends of WoR she's more broken and lost than ever before. But she needs to be to progress.

Well, she did find the gate.  And she found Urithiru.  And she not only saved the armies... But the women and children too, from both the Parshendi and the Everstorm.  Isn't that her "leap over the chasm to save the army moment"?  And she had to reveal lies and her true identity to do it.  And she saved Kalidan in the chasm.  And she survived the ship catastrophe.  And the frozen wasteland, including multiple death/murder possibilities.  And she learned to play politics among the alethi princes... All while living one (or two) other secret lives.

so I humbly disagree.  I saw growth and progress, and satisfying "leap over the chasm" moments.  And now she is revealed as a KR, as the most knowlegable about the KRs among the current KRs (at least until jasnah returns), showing up as a natural leader (or at least appearing to be) for both the knights and a people that need leadership.  

And she admitted her dark\tramatic past to her self... Where I think acceptance is one of the hardest and necesary steps to overcome. (What's the saying? "Accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can, and have the courage to know the difference?"). So I see her working and growing through her brokenness.

i admit, I initially glossed over and then eventually skipped outright, her chapters in WoK.  I was so in to Kalidan and Dallinar that I couldn't wait to get back to their stories, and found stories about a girls brother pulling legs off of creatures (just to torture them) to be boring by comparison.  But I realize now it was more than that.  I was uncomfortable with the explicit abuse, but even more so the implicit and implied abuse... And the extremely disfunctional family, and relationships.  And as a parent in real life, it makes me cringe to see caregivers and providers who take improper care of children... Neglect is bad enough, but abuse...!!!

So while I skipped Shallans chapters in WoK, she's probably my favorite now.  Definitely preferred reading her to Kalidan in wor (whose whining started to grind on me.). And Shallan probably has the most intriguing unresolved future plot elements... The ghost bloods, further family secrets, Mraize and the world hoppers, her and jasnah reconnecting, Adolin vs. Kalidan, pattern, and how she fits into the KRs.  Can't wait.

[Fallen_Ash]

Quote

Well, she did find the gate.  And she found Urithiru.  And she not only saved the armies... But the women and children too, from both the Parshendi and the Everstorm.  Isn't that her "leap over the chasm to save the army moment"?

You're right, she has definitely proven her heroism. But due to the nature of her powers, they aren't as blatantly awe-inspiring as Kaladin's. Which I can chalk up to their society's (and our's) hero-worship of warriors. And Kaladin does get the best lines. 

I like Shallan because her path to heroism is a little more subtle than Kaladin's or Dalinar's. They both have these strict moral codes that they have to follow, which leads to them appearing more noble, but Shallan gets to be more morally flexible, due to the nature of her Nahel bond. She can lie and sneak around and be responsible for other's deaths and join secret societies and Pattern just gets more excited. So I can see how the ambiguity of her morality can turn some people off. 

But like you said, what she has done, especially considering her background, is absolutely miraculous. And some people in this thread mentioned that her fake happiness, her superficiality, were turn-offs, but I agree with Kaladin when he said that fact that she smiled anyway is the most beautiful thing he's ever seen. I can't even write about this without tearing up because of how much I love her and how much I desperately want the two of them to get together. I know the romance aspect is hardly important next to, you know, the destruction of the world and the cosmere, but after the chasm scene in WoR it's pretty much all I can think about for the rest of the book. Brandon writes some great romantic tension. 

[StormyQueen]

I can absolutely understand why some people dislike Shallan, but I really enjoy reading her character and can relate to her on many levels. While I don't think I would like her much as a person, I love her character. 

Shallan is somebody who has been broken. She has been through so much in her life, particularly as a child, and although she puts a strong face on for the world to see, but inside, she is broken, and she still smiles. This is probably the main reason that I love Shallan, particularly because I find this relatable in many ways that I shan't go into. Her mental problems and how she reacts to them are treated very different to Kaladin's, and while I think the portrayal of Kaladin's reaction to his mental illness is important, I think the way Shallan copes is far too often overlooked. I particularly love how Kaladin calls it the most beautiful thing he has ever seen, and I love how smiling in the face of adversaries is written as something beautiful and strong.

I also enjoy reading about her order as well, and I liked watching her unravel the lies that she has been telling herself, and admitting to herself that she isn't as strong as she portrays herself. I also love Shallan's character for the moral ambiguity that she brings. Both Dalinar and Kaladin follow the rules and don't consistently push the moral boundaries that Shallan does, and I think that this brings a good change in characters. 

I cannot deny that she is a flawed character, and in many cases dislikeable, but I think it brings new flavours into the plot that we don't get with the other main characters at the moment. Anyway, this has probably all been said earlier in different ways, but hey, now it's in different words.

[Siaun Sanche]

I've always liked Shallan. In WoK I liked how her story was a nice tonal break from the Shattered Plains, and made the world seem a bit larger. As a character she always wanted to know more about what I want to know more about, so that helps a lot too. WoR only made me love her more: her backstory was great and her rise in confidence/power/influence was compelling. I tend to agree that there's a little part of her that hasn't 100% decided where her real loyalties lie, and to me that's what makes her such a great character. I think it's much easier to imagine where Dalinar will be at the end of Oathbringer than Shallan. 

On 12/23/2016 at 6:37 PM, maxal said:

Shallan's mental shortcuts when it came to Jasnah's treatment of the thugs isn't unlike Kaladin using Roshone's pettiness as an excuse to justify killing Elhokar and thus extracting personal vengeance. He too used very tenuous mental shortcuts to justify his actions and he too was found out to be... wrong about them.

I think it is great characters are allowed to be petty and self-centered at times: it makes them more realistic.

I 100% agree with this. Kaladin can be petty and self-destructive in WoR, and it makes his story great. I love when he interrupts Adolin's big move against Sadeas to call out Amaram and it completely falls flat on its face. I don't want a character who is always going to make wise decisions, because that's hard to care about. To me it's more interesting to watch the heroes be unsure what they should be doing or what they want to be doing.

[kaellok]

On 12/30/2016 at 10:32 AM, djammmer said:

Well, she did find the gate.  And she found Urithiru.  And she not only saved the armies... But the women and children too, from both the Parshendi and the Everstorm.  Isn't that her "leap over the chasm to save the army moment"?  And she had to reveal lies and her true identity to do it.  And she saved Kalidan in the chasm.  And she survived the ship catastrophe.  And the frozen wasteland, including multiple death/murder possibilities.  And she learned to play politics among the alethi princes... All while living one (or two) other secret lives.

Her actions have been heroic, but she hasn't had a moment of heroism like Kaladin (or Dalinar, or Renarin) have had.  In Western culture, and especially for the US (I can't speak for others, so very possibly much more) the concept of a hero is very directly tied in with someone who very physically stands against evil/darkness/the antagonist and does not back down.  Shallan's gifts aren't so very strong in this area, and so she has played to her strengths instead.  The scenes where she is finding the Gate and activating it and saving everyone could have been written as her moment of badass heroism--but they weren't.  On an emotional impact, Adolin's duel in the Storm was stronger, let alone Kaladin's fight with Szeth which stood head and shoulders higher than any other character's climactic arc in SA so far.  So people that are already put off by her lies see her essentially running away from the fight, fleeing--while Kaladin the Straightforward meets and kills The Evil while flying in the sky.

It will always be hard for any other character to compare with Kaladin as far as how relatable/sympathetic they are simply because of the amount of screen-time that he gets and how integral he is to the series, combined with acting very similarly to how we would expect a traditional hero to act (when he's not being Broody McAngst).  Shallan not getting a single scene where she gets to be the unalloyed hero will always make her seem less heroic, and by comparison, not a hero.  

Dalinar was established as a hero early on when he wrestled with the Chasmfiend to save Elhokar.  Renarin entered the pit to save his brother.  Adolin has a number of small scenes as well, but perhaps the point where he murders Sadeas is my favorite--he sees that Sadeas being left alive is evil, and so he acts upon it, but then also reacts with horror at what he did.  

I absolutely love Shallan as a character, and I love Sanderson as an author, but he hasn't done her any favors to readers that aren't predisposed to see someone as a hero for smiling and laughing rather than curling into a ball and crying until the world ends.

(Also, holy cow, reading through this thread brought back some memories.  And I wrote this response before I re-read any of the posts, so meh if I ended up repeating myself )

[maxal]

11 hours ago, kaellok said:

Her actions have been heroic, but she hasn't had a moment of heroism like Kaladin (or Dalinar, or Renarin) have had.  In Western culture, and especially for the US (I can't speak for others, so very possibly much more) the concept of a hero is very directly tied in with someone who very physically stands against evil/darkness/the antagonist and does not back down.  Shallan's gifts aren't so very strong in this area, and so she has played to her strengths instead.  The scenes where she is finding the Gate and activating it and saving everyone could have been written as her moment of badass heroism--but they weren't.  On an emotional impact, Adolin's duel in the Storm was stronger, let alone Kaladin's fight with Szeth which stood head and shoulders higher than any other character's climactic arc in SA so far.  So people that are already put off by her lies see her essentially running away from the fight, fleeing--while Kaladin the Straightforward meets and kills The Evil while flying in the sky.

Long time no see: this was a great post, as usual.

I have to comment on this highlighted part because I consider Adolin's fight in the storm to be one of the most emotional filled moment within the entire book if not the entire series so far. Why? Because there are stakes. We do not know, when Adolin starts fighting if he'll survive. We also know what this fight means to him: he isn't fighting for him, he isn't fighting to protect a bunch of people he has only known for a few weeks, he is fighting to protect the man he loves the most the world, his father, his hero. And when Dalinar gets send into the sky, we do feel his pain, his sadness and his last mad tear eyed filled rush towards Szeth was really heartbreaking. He walks out of it not because he wins, but because the "hero", Kaladin, arrives just in time to chase Szeth away. Adolin is left hurt, dizzy, bruised all over with a broken arm on the ground and while Kaladin is busy doing the "big fight", Adolin quietly puts himself back onto his feet and goes back to his duties.

Kaladin might be the hero, but Adolin has the emotions. Kaladin's last fight was... generic. They are no stakes there: it merely was a show down of abilities and I am convinced nobody even thought, for one moment, he wouldn't win.

11 hours ago, kaellok said:

It will always be hard for any other character to compare with Kaladin as far as how relatable/sympathetic they are simply because of the amount of screen-time that he gets and how integral he is to the series, combined with acting very similarly to how we would expect a traditional hero to act (when he's not being Broody McAngst).  Shallan not getting a single scene where she gets to be the unalloyed hero will always make her seem less heroic, and by comparison, not a hero.  

This has been one of my main point of complain within SA lately: Kaladin has too much screen time when compared to the other main characters. Not only he has too much, but the author always gives him the most "drastic" story arcs. Hence, he is the one to kill his spren, he is the one to figure out oaths while being near death, he is the one always doing the heroic save: it happened so often I felt I would never be satisfied with his character ever again unless he takes a step down and allows other characters to shine more. 

This being said, I absolutely agree Kaladin is very much our run out of the mill hero, a very traditional one within the Western culture. He comes from a humble environment, but he carries moral superiority over basically anyone, especially those from the upper class. He lived in a small town, but he is presented to us as one of the smartest individual alive (and while I have endless arguments to debate this perception, it still remains ingrained within most readers). His power combo is among the most powerful one. He has been beaten, tortured, put to slavery, his brother was murdered, he has suffered injustice, but has has won. He is also moody, broody which gives him the "bad boy" aura many readers find interesting especially within the fantasy fandom.

In other words, he will always be most readers favorite characters because he is depicted as the hero. I do not know what makes other readers latch onto other characters, but the fact remains most of them do latch onto the... hero.

11 hours ago, kaellok said:

I absolutely love Shallan as a character, and I love Sanderson as an author, but he hasn't done her any favors to readers that aren't predisposed to see someone as a hero for smiling and laughing rather than curling into a ball and crying until the world ends.

(Also, holy cow, reading through this thread brought back some memories.  And I wrote this response before I re-read any of the posts, so meh if I ended up repeating myself )

I have a different opinion here. I love Shallan. I prefer her over Kaladin. I find her more interesting than Kaladin because I find her less predictable. I however would not have love her as much had she turn into yet another "action figure", transforming her "moments" into stormlight blasting ones. It would turn an interesting unpredictable character into a more "heroic" one which is exactly how I feel about Kaladin: too standard. He is well-written, but after two books, I find my interest in him has diminished while my interest in Shallan has increased.

All this to say, I personally appreciate Shallan for what she is: a morally grey character who's allegiances might not quite be what we expect them to be. A wildcard. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by maxal

[kaellok]

Hi maxal,

I still lurk around, but don't post all that much anymore--most of what I have to say has already been said

One thing that I did forget to mention in the last post, though, is that I think it IS important for there to be a solid, relatable hero in the more traditional sense.  Roshar is so alien that the majority of readers need to have that something that is normal, to use as a reference point.  I'm very eagerly awaiting Oathbringer, where I assume we will get to see a comparison of a traditional hero with an anti-hero (The Blackthorn).  Although, that might be a better fit for a different thread.

[maxal]

8 hours ago, kaellok said:

Hi maxal,

I still lurk around, but don't post all that much anymore--most of what I have to say has already been said

One thing that I did forget to mention in the last post, though, is that I think it IS important for there to be a solid, relatable hero in the more traditional sense.  Roshar is so alien that the majority of readers need to have that something that is normal, to use as a reference point.  I'm very eagerly awaiting Oathbringer, where I assume we will get to see a comparison of a traditional hero with an anti-hero (The Blackthorn).  Although, that might be a better fit for a different thread.

Yeah, I get the feeling. I have been more scarce as well. 

I do agree the story needed a solid, easily relatable traditional hero mixed into the lot: most epic fantasy have one of such characters, but what makes their strengths often isn't the hero, but those around him. The other heroes, but this is only me talking, different people, different reading reaction. I can definitely see a tendency when I look at what kind of character I typically tend to prefer over which ones.

Have you read The Thrill? I keep looking for people wanting to discuss it with, weighting impressions and everything, but it is either very few people actually read it or they aren't interested in talking about it. We have a thread for it, but huh it is pretty much dead. Dalinar's flashbacks is the one thing still hooking me to Oathbringer, after the whole Adolin fiasco. Those flashbacks presented a man who certainly isn't a hero nor a nice person: how much has he changed? This isn't entirely clear to me.

[kari-no-sugata]

On 13/01/2017 at 5:31 AM, kaellok said:

I absolutely love Shallan as a character, and I love Sanderson as an author, but he hasn't done her any favors to readers that aren't predisposed to see someone as a hero for smiling and laughing rather than curling into a ball and crying until the world ends.

Yeah, the way she is written does make her harder to like. In a number of different ways she undermines herself quite a lot - she would probably be more likeable if we only or mostly saw her from the perspective of others (except perhaps "I hate Lighteyes" Kaladin). Or at least, her own perspective gives you plenty of reasons to doubt or distrust her on an initial read. One of the things I find interesting about her as a reader is that if you really pay attention there's clearly more than meets the eye - putting it another way, I enjoyed her more after re-reading the books. Brandon has compared her a bit to Mat (from Wheel of Time) but Mat has an attitude more like "the only sane guy in a world gone mad" while Shallan is more like "you don't have to be crazy to work here but it helps".

To me she generally comes across as someone who doesn't value herself that highly. She uses a lot of self-deprecating humour. She doesn't have much confidence in herself. And so on. She is willing to try and is changing though, but I think her own negative thoughts are transmitted to the reader. It probably doesn't help that in the last section of WoR she's rather stressed out (notice how she barely makes any jokes in this section) and that her final scenes (from her point of view) are far from positive and uplifting.

The thing is though, if she wasn't like this it would probably be much harder for her to be a Lightweaver. As a reader, I'm quite happy with how she is but as a fan it's a bit frustrating...

[Gizmosowner]

She's ok and all but I will forever love Vin more

[Telmond]

Personally in wok I thought she was a average character ( didn't hate her or like her). At the time I thought she was Brandon's weakest main character to date, until I read words of radiance.

Brandon once again has shown me his incredible skill as a writer as he managed to take a character I didn't care for at all all and transform her into a very good character for whom i actually give a damnation about. ( in my opinion still the weakest mc in storm light)

[Meliorist]

I am listening to WoK on audible now and it has changed my perspective a bit. The first time I read the book, Shallan was a fun character that offered a more intimate view of some of the worlds troubles. How religion affects the people and the different governments, shown to us in a way that wouldn't come across as well if the ever present war/bridgerun was the backdrop. Listening to the book on audible though, Shallan wears thin at times. Not for the lying or anything but because a lot of her cleverness in conversations is 'low hanging fruit' if you will. 

Even reading to reading, I enjoyed her character a lot more in the second book and it will be interesting to see if I will like her even more while listening.