Adolin will head down a much darker path than expected (Theory)

[Marmota]

Nice catch.   I'm more inclined to think there could be a Herald traitor (cough, cough, Nale).  The use of the present tense seems wrong to be referring to knights, as they are not necessarily knights yet and are not working together.  Less likely to me is the possibility that one of the Unmade is a traitor to the others. 

 It sure could be a Herald as well.... though between these two options i would rather take Adolin, because i would like the plot twist.

Though, i was seeing the heading again and saw that there was a mistake in the Heading that I quoted. Its not from the " 2nd Ceiling Rotation". It is in fact "2nd Desk Drawer".

 

Looking into other Headings of the book of the 2nd Desk Drawer ( chapters, 81 and 82) both speak of the Unmade. That may lead to belieave that the chapter 86 (One is almost certainly a traitor to the others) might refer to a Unmade as well. Not Adolin(or other KR) neither Heralds.

 

Now its a deviation of the original discussion i know. But it might be implying that an Unmade is actually gona help the Radiants during the new Desolation, and not the other way around. Shame....new vilains are better than new heroes....

[maxal]

I think that it may refer to the KR orders, and one order will have a trator. How cool would it be if the traitor turn out to be Adolin ? I think that the fact that Adolin doesnt have any scheduled flashback book may support this theory i litle bit.

 

If there is indeed a traitor within the Kohlin's household, I sincerely doubt it'll end up being Adolin. His family ties are just too strong: he loves his close ones too much to willingly turn against them. However, it is quite possible he may get unjustly accused of treason as he did murdered Sadeas and that will impair trust others have been having in him.

 

Also, I have long think Elhokar is seeing Voidsprens or Ordiumspren and will end up being manipulated into destroying the Kohlins. It could also be Shallan who has such a loose morality and who currently plays with her enemies. She may be convinced to turn against the others.

 

Adolin not having a planned flashback does not mean he is going to go evil... I personally believe it means his journey will happen during present time as opposed to during the past for all other characters. Each and every single other Radiants we have met have reached their

destination. Adolin is the loose canon right now and I suspect his journey will be a very bumpy, muddy and bloody one.

 

 

 It sure could be a Herald as well.... though between these two options i would rather take Adolin, because i would like the plot twist.

Though, i was seeing the heading again and saw that there was a mistake in the Heading that I quoted. Its not from the " 2nd Ceiling Rotation". It is in fact "2nd Desk Drawer".

 

Looking into other Headings of the book of the 2nd Desk Drawer ( chapters, 81 and 82) both speak of the Unmade. That may lead to belieave that the chapter 86 (One is almost certainly a traitor to the others) might refer to a Unmade as well. Not Adolin(or other KR) neither Heralds.

 

Now its a deviation of the original discussion i know. But it might be implying that an Unmade is actually gona help the Radiants during the new Desolation, and not the other way around. Shame....new vilains are better than new heroes....

 

I have always thought the traitor would someone we are supposed to trust. A Herald, a knights or a king I could be wrong though. I have never spent much time reading those headings.

[Marmota]

 

I have always thought the traitor would someone we are supposed to trust. A Herald, a knights or a king I could be wrong though. I have never spent much time reading those headings.

 

 I hope tha you are right! It is just not what the headings lead to believe

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

I was thinking that the traitor was Eshonai (to the Parshendi) - if she ends up as a radiant (like everyone thinks) that means she somehow switched teams....

[maxal]

I was thinking that the traitor was Eshonai (to the Parshendi) - if she ends up as a radiant (like everyone thinks) that means she somehow switched teams....

 

Yeah but it also mean she may save what's left of her people.... She is the bridge Taravangian was talking about.

[Talanic]

Well, if you don't mind the new guy's wild guessing...

 

Adolin was bound to delay his fight with Sadeas for a year.  The Weeping marks the end of a year; it could be argued in a splitting hairs sense that the delay was therefore honored.  I wouldn't buy it, myself, but something more important overrules it.

 

Remember the difference in rank that Sadeas created between himself and Dalinar.  Dalinar is Highprince of War, and can be considered an arm of the state, and definitely Sadeas' superior officer, especially in this frontier - a city that has just been seized by troops under Dalinar's command.  

 

"It's him or me...I will take this from him."  Sadeas declares, in the first sentence, his intention to kill Dalinar.  The second sentence is essentially a declaration of intent to seize land that is vital to the survival of Alethkar - not just Dalinar.  Both of these lines can easily be construed as a confession of high treason.  As of that moment, Sadeas' life is utterly forfeit.  The only problem is the method that Adolin followed.

 

As far as the traitor line, I had a few guesses.

 

Venli comes to mind first, for her apparent extant knowledge of Stormform and its consequences. 

 

Moash seems unlikely, as the diagram was written too early.  So does Adolin, for the same reason.

 

My money?  Well, follow the logic here.

 

Chapter 41: Scars.  Excerpt (partial here) from Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, Page 20:

"...but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

 

So.  One of the Orders didn't actually drop their Shards at the Recreance.  They left the other knights to die - possibly justifying their abandonment as a means of preserving knowledge for the future.  This does not mean they remained Radiant, only that they didn't ditch their Blades or Plate.  But the question remains, which order?

 

Again, following the logic, the order that has the least in common with the others.  What's the biggest difference between the orders that we know of?  Well, nine of the ten had their Heralds drop out of the Oathpact...

 

This is probably worth starting a new thread over, but my guess is the (notoriously stubborn) Stonewards still exist in some form, and that the name gives a great big clue as far as where they are.  Shinovar - which clearly contains people who know a lot more about the Knights Radiant and Surgebinding than anyone else does.

 

Google says I'm not the first person to think of this, which isn't surprising to me, but that's who I think the Diagram means when it mentions a traitor.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Talanic

[maxal]

Well, if you don't mind the new guy's wild guessing...

 

Adolin was bound to delay his fight with Sadeas for a year.  The Weeping marks the end of a year; it could be argued in a splitting hairs sense that the delay was therefore honored.  I wouldn't buy it, myself, but something more important overrules it.

 

Adolin asked to duel Sadeas "to this day" and Sadeas wriggled out of it by agreeing to duel Adolin on that very same day, a year later. He did not agree to duel him next year, but a full year later. So no, the delay was definitely not honored and even if it was, Adolin did not kill Sadeas in a duel. He jumped on Sadeas with the intend to kill him.

 

 

Remember the difference in rank that Sadeas created between himself and Dalinar.  Dalinar is Highprince of War, and can be considered an arm of the state, and definitely Sadeas' superior officer, especially in this frontier - a city that has just been seized by troops under Dalinar's command.  

 

"It's him or me...I will take this from him."  Sadeas declares, in the first sentence, his intention to kill Dalinar.  The second sentence is essentially a declaration of intent to seize land that is vital to the survival of Alethkar - not just Dalinar.  Both of these lines can easily be construed as a confession of high treason.  As of that moment, Sadeas' life is utterly forfeit.  The only problem is the method that Adolin followed.

 

Sadeas did threatened the Kohlins and his last speech did sound like a war declaration. However, there was no witness, whereas there were several witness of Adolin publicly threatening Sadeas... If push come to shove, it will be Adolin's word against that of everyone.... To play by the rules, Adolin should have walked away and report to his father, but it would have served nothing. Dalinar would not have listen, would not have acted upon it, especially bearing in mind Sadeas's declaration was made in private. Sadeas's life was forfeit? It should have been the minute he betrayed the Kohlins, but the Alethki society is constructed in a way that protects treason, providing one is careful enough.

 

Poor Adolin was painted into a corner: it was either he breaks down all of his father's rules to avoid a future disaster or he stand still and watch the man he hates the most destroy those he loves the most. Brandon did mention in a WoB that Sadeas needed killing and that Adolin was the only one able to do so. Why? Because he is the only character we have met so far, who generally acts on what is right, no matter the conventions, no matter the law, no matter the consequences. I hope this is telling.

 

 

As far as the traitor line, I had a few guesses.

 

Venli comes to mind first, for her apparent extant knowledge of Stormform and its consequences. 

 

Moash seems unlikely, as the diagram was written too early.  So does Adolin, for the same reason.

 

I am not sure how much of a traitor Venli is... The Parshendi never fought with the humans as far as I know. Was she really acting traitor or was she acting as per her ancestors? I guess this is debatable. I tend to see her as a traitor as she coaxed all of her people into turning into killing machines and she sought to slaughtered those who refused. However, I do not think she is the traitor mention in WoR.

 

Moash is not much of a traitor, but a seriously misguided young man with an understandable desire to seek revenge. However, he seeks it in the wrong way, attacking the wrong person with the wrong means. I do not see him as a champion of Odium or something.

 

Adolin cannot be the traitor, not willingly. He loves his family too much. However, if I were an enemy faction of Dalinar, I would try to turn the son over, just like Sadeas initially tried, but he lacked the means to succeed, and upon failing, I would seek to get rid of him.

 

 

So.  One of the Orders didn't actually drop their Shards at the Recreance.  They left the other knights to die - possibly justifying their abandonment as a means of preserving knowledge for the future.  This does not mean they remained Radiant, only that they didn't ditch their Blades or Plate.  But the question remains, which order?

 

Again, following the logic, the order that has the least in common with the others.  What's the biggest difference between the orders that we know of?  Well, nine of the ten had their Heralds drop out of the Oathpact...

 

This is probably worth starting a new thread over, but my guess is the (notoriously stubborn) Stonewards still exist in some form, and that the name gives a great big clue as far as where they are.  Shinovar - which clearly contains people who know a lot more about the Knights Radiant and Surgebinding than anyone else does.

 

Google says I'm not the first person to think of this, which isn't surprising to me, but that's who I think the Diagram means when it mentions a traitor.

 

Yeah you are not the first, although I do not recall reading anyone tying it the tenth order to the traitor mentioned in the Diagram. Popular guess for the remaining orders are either the Skybreakers or the Stonewards. Personally, I believe the Stonewards are the ones that remained. As you say, they were the stubborn ones, reliable beyond any known measure. I does make sense for them to remain active, albeit secretly, hidden within Shinovar who seems to know more than the average about surgebinding.

 

I have also another reason to believe so... The character lineup we currently have: we have no Stonewards except for Taln who is not a knight, but a Herald. Why would that be? Perhaps it is so because there actually is dozens of Stonewards secretly hidding in Shinovar.......... waiting for the return of surgebinding to come out in the open.

[Mckeedee123]

 

I have also another reason to believe so... The character lineup we currently have: we have no Stonewards except for Taln who is not a knight, but a Herald. Why would that be? Perhaps it is so because there actually is dozens of Stonewards secretly hidding in Shinovar.......... waiting for the return of surgebinding to come out in the open.

 

If true, could this have something to do with the origin of Stone Shamanism?

[maxal]

If true, could this have something to do with the origin of Stone Shamanism?

 

Possibly.

[Kal973]

Hy everyone !

I really can't see Adolin taking a dark path; he is too loyal to his father to do that. He could maybe loose control  if Dalinar was to die, but I don't think Dalinar will die (in my mind, Dalinar is the king-to-be). 

I love Adolin's character right now, genuine and straightforward, and I would be very disappointed if he was to become "the traitor" or "the ennemy".

It would be interesting to see his reactions if he were not to become a radiant; it can be hard for him to be surrounded by loved ones who have abilities, while he has none. But, then, I doubt it would be enough to make him jealous, bitter and angry !

That said, if you think about it : the spren tend to choose humans who have been broken at some point, and Adolin... is not.

So my guess is that Adolin will become a radiant, but that he will have to suffer some king of ordeal before... (don't know what, but I'm sure he will have hard times at some point)

I would even agree to see him manipulated by Odium during his ordeal, and mislead in his grief. But one thing's for sure, if such a thing happened, I'd want to see Shallan and Kaladdin act together to win him back ! There's no way Kaladdin and Shallan end up together while Adolin turns to be evil !  They'd have to fight side by side to help him...     

[maxal]

Hy everyone !

I really can't see Adolin taking a dark path; he is too loyal to his father to do that. He could maybe loose control  if Dalinar was to die, but I don't think Dalinar will die (in my mind, Dalinar is the king-to-be).   

 

We agree about Adolin, but we disagree about Dalinar. I think Dalinar will die... Sadly. I love Dalinar, he is one of my favorite characters, but I have somehow always expected him to die before the end    There is also the matter of Brandon claiming a character having a flashback does not mean this character will live until then... Many people have interpret this as a foreshadow of Dalinar's impending death, but I have absolutely no quarrel at seeing him live through it. In fact, I would very much like to see the whole Kohlin family (minus Elhokar, him I don't care ) make to the end.

 

 

I love Adolin's character right now, genuine and straightforward, and I would be very disappointed if he was to become "the traitor" or "the ennemy".

 

Feels the same, I adore Adolin He is a prince and yet there is this "guy next door" vibe about him.

 

 

It would be interesting to see his reactions if he were not to become a radiant; it can be hard for him to be surrounded by loved ones who have abilities, while he has none. But, then, I doubt it would be enough to make him jealous, bitter and angry !

 

Agree again. I don't see him getting jealous, bitter or angry either, but I do see him becoming sad and self-depreciating. I do see him thinking he was not chosen because he does not deserve it, because he is not a good enough person, after all, he is a murderer: the sprens must have known this. I also do see him thinking his family is moving away from him, feeling excluded, worst feeling as he is not part of the family anymore and these are exactly the kind of thoughts who'll hurt him.

 

 

That said, if you think about it : the spren tend to choose humans who have been broken at some point, and Adolin... is not.

So my guess is that Adolin will become a radiant, but that he will have to suffer some king of ordeal before... (don't know what, but I'm sure he will have hard times at some point)

I would even agree to see him manipulated by Odium during his ordeal, and mislead in his grief. But one thing's for sure, if such a thing happened, I'd want to see Shallan and Kaladdin act together to win him back ! There's no way Kaladdin and Shallan end up together while Adolin turns to be evil !  They'd have to fight side by side to help him...     

 

I think sprens chose humans presenting the proper qualities for their given order (protecting, creative, pious, brace, etc) and having the potential to hold unto the oaths. I have always seen being broken as a test of sort. It is not enough to just be "protecting", you need to prove you can still find ways to protect people even in the face of strong adversity. Kal proved just that. Adolin has not, so far.

 

I do think Adolin is going to face ordeals in the next book, he'll suffer. He'll crack, at some point, he won't be able to cope anymore.

 

I love your idea of Odium influencing him only to have Kal and Shallan come to the rescue I really like thinking Kal would have his back, even in the face of the worst adversity, because this is what friends do: friends do not abandon a friend in need. I would love if Shallan thought the same.

[Kruppe]

I think Kaladin will give Adolin the honor blade

[Bobby]

 

Chapter 41: Scars.  Excerpt (partial here) from Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, Page 20:

"...but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

 

So.  One of the Orders didn't actually drop their Shards at the Recreance.  They left the other knights to die - possibly justifying their abandonment as a means of preserving knowledge for the future.  This does not mean they remained Radiant, only that they didn't ditch their Blades or Plate.  But the question remains, which order?

 

Again, following the logic, the order that has the least in common with the others.  What's the biggest difference between the orders that we know of?  Well, nine of the ten had their Heralds drop out of the Oathpact...

 

This is probably worth starting a new thread over, but my guess is the (notoriously stubborn) Stonewards still exist in some form, and that the name gives a great big clue as far as where they are.  Shinovar - which clearly contains people who know a lot more about the Knights Radiant and Surgebinding than anyone else does.

 

Google says I'm not the first person to think of this, which isn't surprising to me, but that's who I think the Diagram means when it mentions a traitor.

 

Except we know from Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep that Stonewards (and Windrunners) most definitely were among the orders that broke/renounced their oaths.

 

furthermore we know that there is a grouping calling themselves the Skybreakers still around and that at least one of them has that mystical ability to "divide the guilty from the innocent" the same that skybreakers of old had

 

 

Edit: i do believe that the Shin and their stone shamanism has something to do with Taln though. possibly their ancestors figured out that all the other heralds abandoned the oathpact, gathered up most of the remaining honourblades and started worshipping Stonesinew which eventually evolved into a complex religion in which all stone is hollow because it keeps away the desolations or some such

Edited September 7, 2014 by Bobby

[Kal973]

We agree about Adolin, but we disagree about Dalinar. I think Dalinar will die... Sadly. I love Dalinar, he is one of my favorite characters, but I have somehow always expected him to die before the end    There is also the matter of Brandon claiming a character having a flashback does not mean this character will live until then... Many people have interpret this as a foreshadow of Dalinar's impending death, but I have absolutely no quarrel at seeing him live through it. In fact, I would very much like to see the whole Kohlin family (minus Elhokar, him I don't care ) make to the end.

 

I love Dalinar too. (I picture him as Bill Adama in Battlestar Galactica, they have so much in common   ). I hope he won't die (or at least that he will have an honorable death, to save many other people).  Elhokar  has to die, though. Frankly,the guy is of no use !

 

I wonder. If Elhokar was dead, would it leave Jasnah to be Queen ? (I don't know if girls are in line for the throne in Alethkar ? But then again, Jasnah isn't just any girl, she's Jasnah). She would make a great Queen, but I don't think she would like to take the throne, being a scholar and a radiant. And if Elhokar was dead, and Dalinar too, and if Jasnah was to leave the throne,  that would lead Adolin to become king... 

 

Feels the same, I adore Adolin He is a prince and yet there is this "guy next door" vibe about him.

Exactly

 

I love your idea of Odium influencing him only to have Kal and Shallan come to the rescue I really like thinking Kal would have his back, even in the face of the worst adversity, because this is what friends do: friends do not abandon a friend in need. I would love if Shallan thought the same.

 

 I think that Dalinar treats and considers Kal as is his third son, And Adolin behaves like an older brother for him ; first, he is a starteld by the fondness his father has for the young spearman; then, he accepts him as "part of the family". Then, he develops respect and admiration for his talents. I guess that Adolin understands Kal better than he understands Renarin, because they are both fighters. And even if Adolin loves Renarin, there's a gap between them because they are so different. Renarin is a secret and lonely guy, and a poor fighter. Adolin is the kind of guy who enjoys company and friendship in life and on the battlefield, but he is deprived of it because of his position (a prince, Dalinar's son).

Kal can be his brother in arms, and it's something he longs for.

In the end of WoR, Kal begins to slowly acknoledge Adolin in return; he's not so far from seeing him as a friend. I think that this bond will become tighter in time. Kal has proven to be a very loyal person. (He even hesitated to turn on Moash knowing him as a traitor and a murderer, because he was his friend !). If Adolin was in any kind of trouble, I take for granted that Kal wouldn't abandon him.  

On the other hand : Shallan acts quite like an older sister too with Kal, trying to enlighten him (she always tried to make her brothers happy back in Jah Keved). And she is a radiant, like him, and I think they will become quite close, but I see her as being part of the Kholin family since Jasnah adopted her and she is very fond of Adolin (they really are a good match).

I love the Adolin-and-Shallan-trying-to-make-mister-grumpy-Kal-happy-dynamic and I think it could reverse at some point in Shallan-and-Kaladdin-helping-Adolin-to-solve-his-problems  . Plus, if  Elhokar and Dalinar were to die, and if Adolin was to become king, both Shallan and Kal would be the best sidekicks to help him rule. 

 

 

I think Kaladin will give Adolin the honor blade

Mmm...That could be a way for him to get abilities without being chosen by any spren... And Syl said several times to Kal how dangerous this could be (lots of power but no spren / no vows spoken to guide the person who wields it).   

[hoser]

Except ...

 

Edit: i do believe that the Shin and their stone shamanism has something to do with Taln though. possibly their ancestors figured out that all the other heralds abandoned the oathpact, gathered up most of the remaining honourblades and started worshipping Stonesinew which eventually evolved into a complex religion in which all stone is hollow because it keeps away the desolations or some such

I like this idea.  And yet, Szeth was named Truthless for suggesting that the Voidbringers were returning (or something similar).  When he thinks that the Radiants are back he considers it the "end of all truth."  So I think the Stone Shamans believe the lies of the Heralds that remained.  Doubting those lies seems to be their greatest heresy. 

Edited September 7, 2014 by hoser

[maxal]

I think Kaladin will give Adolin the honor blade

 

And I think Adolin will refuse it as he will feel he does not deserve it.

 

sted Today, 03:54 AM

maxal, on 06 Sept 2014 - 2:52 PM, said:

 

I love Dalinar too. (I picture him as Bill Adama in Battlestar Galactica, they have so much in common   ). I hope he won't die (or at least that he will have an honorable death, to save many other people).  Elhokar  has to die, though. Frankly,the guy is of no use !

 

I wonder. If Elhokar was dead, would it leave Jasnah to be Queen ? (I don't know if girls are in line for the throne in Alethkar ? But then again, Jasnah isn't just any girl, she's Jasnah). She would make a great Queen, but I don't think she would like to take the throne, being a scholar and a radiant. And if Elhokar was dead, and Dalinar too, and if Jasnah was to leave the throne,  that would lead Adolin to become king...

 

If Elhokar dies, his son becomes king. If his son dies, Dalinar becomes king. If Dalinar dies, then Adolin becomes king. He is third in the line of succession. Providing he survives the series, it is not too far-fetched to think he may end up on the throne someday. Strangely, I believe he'd actually make a good king. With Renarin at his side, he'd be unstoppable, but for the good reasons.

 

sted Today, 03:54 AM

maxal, on 06 Sept 2014 - 2:52 PM, said:

 

 I think that Dalinar treats and considers Kal as is his third son, And Adolin behaves like an older brother for him ; first, he is a starteld by the fondness his father has for the young spearman; then, he accepts him as "part of the family". Then, he develops respect and admiration for his talents. I guess that Adolin understands Kal better than he understands Renarin, because they are both fighters. And even if Adolin loves Renarin, there's a gap between them because they are so different. Renarin is a secret and lonely guy, and a poor fighter. Adolin is the kind of guy who enjoys company and friendship in life and on the battlefield, but he is deprived of it because of his position (a prince, Dalinar's son).

Kal can be his brother in arms, and it's something he longs for.

In the end of WoR, Kal begins to slowly acknoledge Adolin in return; he's not so far from seeing him as a friend. I think that this bond will become tighter in time. Kal has proven to be a very loyal person. (He even hesitated to turn on Moash knowing him as a traitor and a murderer, because he was his friend !). If Adolin was in any kind of trouble, I take for granted that Kal wouldn't abandon him.  

On the other hand : Shallan acts quite like an older sister too with Kal, trying to enlighten him (she always tried to make her brothers happy back in Jah Keved). And she is a radiant, like him, and I think they will become quite close, but I see her as being part of the Kholin family since Jasnah adopted her and she is very fond of Adolin (they really are a good match).

I love the Adolin-and-Shallan-trying-to-make-mister-grumpy-Kal-happy-dynamic and I think it could reverse at some point in Shallan-and-Kaladdin-helping-Adolin-to-solve-his-problems  . Plus, if  Elhokar and Dalinar were to die, and if Adolin was to become king, both Shallan and Kal would be the best sidekicks to help him rule. 

 

I think you are putting too much feeling into Dalinar's relationship with Kal. I did not get the feeling he treated him as a third son. I felt he treated him as a respected officer and the fact he saved his life allowed him to be more lenient with him then he should have. Kal is a valuable asset and Dalinar recognize it.

 

I did not get either that Adolin acted big brotherly with Kal. Adolin's idea of being an older brother is to protect his sibling. We saw it numerous time, how he tries to keep a confident exterior so that Renarin would not worry, how he insists he does not need guards, but he appreciates they try to protect Renarin, how he is grateful Kal saved Renarin's life and not his own, etc. Adolin always encourages Renarin towards things, he got him to be trained by Zahel, he gave him a shardblade.

 

I felt more like Adolin and Kaladin were two roosters meeting for the first time. Adolin's initial reaction was one of distrust as he felt his father's blinded trust into a man obviously hiding things from them is unfounded. Kaladin's initial reaction was one of jealousy as he obviously envied the life of privileges Adolin has lived so far. However, Adolin is not nearly as arrogant as Kaladin claims he is: he was able to see the worth of Kaladin and after the duel, he tried to turn him into an ally and a friend. Kaladin, on his side, manage (with a bit of help from Shallan) to see beyond the blue eyes and see Adolin actually is a nice person.

 

I do see their relationship evolving towards friendship more than brotherhood and I do see Kal coming back to have his friend's back.

[Bobby]

I like this idea.  And yet, Szeth was named Truthless for suggesting that the Voidbringers were returning (or something similar).  When he thinks that the Radiants are back he considers it the "end of all truth."  So I think the Stone Shamans believe the lies of the Heralds that remained.  Doubting those lies seems to be their greatest heresy. 

 

it could also be considered heresy because it implies Taln failed.