Glowing Metal in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm

[MasterK-Bob he/him]

I just wanted to ask why Scadrian metal glows in the cognitive realm to Kelsier to a degree that he perceives metal and souls to be the same thing. When I first read this I presumed that scadrian metal was manifest investiture just like stormlight, which explained allomancy, if not feruchemy and hemalurgy. This apparently is not the case, since metal is not the source of allomancy, but rather the key to tapping into preservation's power when using allomancy. But then why does scadrian metal glow? I don't think we've gotten any suggestions that metal glows in the cognitive realm of other planets. Is Scadrian metal special, or are Scadrians special because they perceive metal as glowing, or is this an attribute of the Scadrian Cognitive realm anyone would perceive? Does Scadrian metal only glow in the cognitive realm if it's actually in the physical realm, but if taken into the cognitive realm physically, resemble normal metal? Whatever the case, this does seem to be the same mechanism by which Ruin is prevented from reading and/or changing anything inscribed in metal. What bearing  does Kelsier's encounter with Nazh in Secret History, with his non-glowing metal knife, have on this discussion?

[+Extesian he/him]

Yeah its a good catch. The answer is simply that the power is ready to push out through the metal, a little reminiscent of aons.

Quote

Zmann966

Is the metal on Scadrial specially Invested? Can an Allomancer use metals from other planets?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2)

Metal is a key, not the source of power itself. Most is not specially Invested. It glows because of the power seeking to come through it, not because of the power within it.

source

In the case of Nazh's knife that has been rafo'd but I'm guessing its made of metal that is not one of the metals the metallic arts can use, therefore the power isn't seeking to come through it. 

[Calderis he/him]

I think Nazh's knife fails to glow simply because it has been physically transitioned into the Cognitive Realm. 

And I think the metal appears the way it does on Scadrial specifically because metal is the focus on that world. 

If you were to bring metal from off world to Scadrial and view it in from the Cognitive while it was in the physical, I think it would be indistinguishable. 

[+Extesian he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think Nazh's knife fails to glow simply because it has been physically transitioned into the Cognitive Realm. 

And I think the metal appears the way it does on Scadrial specifically because metal is the focus on that world. 

If you were to bring metal from off world to Scadrial and view it in from the Cognitive while it was in the physical, I think it would be indistinguishable. 

Oh i remembering you mentioning that a while back and it becoming my head canon. Coz there's no outlet to the physical realm investiture isn't ready to flow through. 

[Quantus he/him]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think Nazh's knife fails to glow simply because it has been physically transitioned into the Cognitive Realm. 

And I think the metal appears the way it does on Scadrial specifically because metal is the focus on that world. 

If you were to bring metal from off world to Scadrial and view it in from the Cognitive while it was in the physical, I think it would be indistinguishable. 

Huh, that sounds too much like a physical location restriction to me, which shouldnt be the case outside of Sel.  If the metal glows because its a thinning 'window' to the spiritual realm, the key for that should be the Allomancer rather than the location of the metal, no?  For metallic arts the only difference should be in the Spiritweb of the allomancer/feruchemist, so Im guessing either they only glow in the presence of allomancers/feruchemists (or maybe all Scadrial Natives, being all Invested by Preservation), or else the glow is actually only visible to Scadrial natives (did any non-natives mention it in SH?)

[Calderis he/him]

@Quantus we're speaking specifically of the appearance of Scadrial's manifested Cognitive Realm. That is something location dependant.

Metal on Roshar would just look like another bead. 

Location does matter here. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Calderis

[Quantus he/him]

@Calderis I get that.  My hang-up (and I admit this is a little nit-picky) is that if the glow is the result of the metal being the focus for allomancy, being a thin spot where the Spiritual realm is seeking to come through, then even in the Cog realm that should have nothing to do with Scadrial and everything to to with the Scadrians.  Again, I realize this is a fine distinction but as I understand it Metal is Not the focus of the Scadrian World, it is the focus of the Scadrian People, which would be critical here.

Put another way, if the Glow is currently restricted to the actual planet (or rather its CR region) then I expect that limitation to be a secondary result of the people (or even Harmony's) currently narrow/restricted outlook, such that once they move to a space-faring society that can separate the two concepts, the effect will follow them.  Even presently I expect an allomancer would see that glow no matter where in the Cognitive realm they were.

[Calderis he/him]

@Quantus the focus is a development of the world itself. I'm trying to find some of the older WoBs that deal with this because it's not something that gets asked about a lot anymore. 

Quote

Josh

If Odium went to Scadrial, would he be blind to metal there? Because I think you mentioned more than once that focuses are actually determined by planet.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO that. But that's one of those excellent questions. I'm amused people have figured out enough to be asking questions like that.

source

I know that doesn't say much, but think about it this way. 

For humans to have Allomancy, Allomancy needs to already exist. The magic system has to develop as an interaction between the Shard itself and the planet its built out of before it can be written into the people there. 

Every focus that we have had confirmed has been tied to a world.

Scadrial = Metal

Nalthis = Commands 

Sel = Forms

This are the only three we have confirmed. (and unfortunately I don't have time to dig up the WoBs at the moment. Especially the Nalthis one as that I've only ever been able to find from a post Chaos made about focus long before I was ever active on the forums) 

Every planet also has a Cognitive Realm that appears unique to it. I believe that is influenced by the belief of the people, as well as the Shard and the world itself... But these are areas that frankly, we just don't know much about. 

Metal though, is not invested inherently. Allomancers can use metal for anywhere. From everything that we've been shown, metal doesn't glow anywhere else. I don't see why that would be tied to users of a magic system, and not the world that that system is built from. 

[MasterK-Bob he/him]

Am I write that the glowing metal in the cognitive realm is the reason ruin can't alter things written in metal, or at least related? I think that would have bearing on whether or not anyone would see metal as glowing. Maybe it's that metal glows in the presence of the power of a shard, on scadrial, whether that power is in an invested individual or a manifestation of the shard, since it's not the innate power of Ruin and Preservation that create allomancy etc., but rather the innate power or shards interacting with Scadrial, right?

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus the focus is a development of the world itself. I'm trying to find some of the older WoBs that deal with this because it's not something that gets asked about a lot anymore. 

I know that doesn't say much, but think about it this way. 

For humans to have Allomancy, Allomancy needs to already exist. The magic system has to develop as an interaction between the Shard itself and the planet its built out of before it can be written into the people there. 

Every focus that we have had confirmed has been tied to a world.

Scadrial = Metal

Nalthis = Commands 

Sel = Forms

This are the only three we have confirmed. (and unfortunately I don't have time to dig up the WoBs at the moment. Especially the Nalthis one as that I've only ever been able to find from a post Chaos made about focus long before I was ever active on the forums) 

Every planet also has a Cognitive Realm that appears unique to it. I believe that is influenced by the belief of the people, as well as the Shard and the world itself... But these are areas that frankly, we just don't know much about. 

Metal though, is not invested inherently. Allomancers can use metal for anywhere. From everything that we've been shown, metal doesn't glow anywhere else. I don't see why that would be tied to users of a magic system, and not the world that that system is built from. 

 

Well first off, Ive rewritten my reply three times, each time finding myself more closer to your side.  So, for the domino-job you did on my brain, Kudos

 

I read your first statement about Allomancy needing to exist between the Shard and the Planet and initially thought it didt fit at all, because the planet and people were created together whole so there'd have been no evolutionary process required, and I thought the only critical connection was between the shard and the people it created since theres nothing special about the metal.

Then I realized that the statement would be entirely correct if we were talking about gemstones on Roshar instead of metal on Scadrial, because there it's all part of a much more complex ecosystem.  Which tells me my previous statement that Sel should be the only one with a planetary component cant be the real root of my unease.   But Im still stuck on the idea that it's the people rather than the planet that makes the difference, because I fully expect Era4 Scadrians to colonize new planets and that effect to follow them. 

That was the thought that made it click for me.  My hanging point is that there is supposed to be nothing involved in allomancy other than the correct sDNA to connect to Preservation and any old metal (which are known to have common, cosmere-wide traits and functions, ie aluminum).  If the metal functions equally well anywhere, it shouldnt behave differently on one place vs another.  But, as you say the Cognitive Realm is influenced by the beliefs of the population (conscious or otherwise). So Im thinking that it's not the planet, or the people persay, but the Population as a whole that are causing the effect.  Meaning any world with a significant Scadrial population's influence would see the same glow from metals on its shadesmar side, including any potential shard-less colonies.  

 

From there I only have two questions: 1) How many scadrian's does it take to affect a region of the Cognitive realm?  Im going to go out on a limb and say it's not One like I was previously implying.   2) Is the influence happening because a significant chunk of the population are actually Allomancers whose Spiritwebs know how to use metals as a focus, or is it because of the Cultural significance of Metal (all or just those 16)? 

 

 

 

[Weltall]

59 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

I'm not a 100% sure, but this is how I had it. Metal glows to Kelsier because he's an allowmancer. For him, metal is the lens through which Preservation's power shines. It is available to him. Any metal in the physical that he could have ingested and burned - and that has a reflection in the cognitive - would glow to Kelsier's eyes.

We've known for years that metal glows in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm because a Shard's power is essentially shining through it; The WoB is right at the top of this topic. It didn't require a thread necro to point out.

Also, the same mechanics explain why gemstones on Roshar glow when infused with Stormlight: The glow comes from the Spiritual Realm. You don't need a Connection to a magic system to perceive it, it's just how the power flows down through the Realms. In the specific case of Scadrial, the glow simply isn't visible in the Physical Realm until you hit truly ridiculous levels of power, at which point the distinction between matter/energy/Investiture pretty much vanishes and everything starts to glow though metal shines brighter.

[John Flamesinger he/him]

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:42 AM, Quantus said:

Meaning any world with a significant Scadrial population's influence would see the same glow from metals on its shadesmar side, including any potential shard-less colonies.

So... Lets say, theoretically, that a Scadrian got off world and then, on another planet, start a religion that revolved around metal. Would metal there, over time (assuming that the religion gained lots of followers) begin glowing in the C realm?

[+TheFoxQR]

I'm not a 100% sure, but this is how I had it. Metal glows to Kelsier because he's an allowmancer. For him, metal is the lens through which Preservation's power shines. It is available to him. Any metal in the physical that he could have ingested and burned - and that has a reflection in the cognitive - would glow to Kelsier's eyes.

Edited March 31, 2019 by TheFoxQR