Avatars of Autonomy

[DracostarA]

This is not so much a theory as it is a plausible idea.

Just how autonomous do you think Autonomy's avatars are? It is implied they are Splinters of the Shard on different planets, but I was wondering if they are all aligned with Bavadin's goals, or (by nature of the Shard) are given true free will, might they come into conflict with each other? I think it would be fun to see different avatars on opposing sides, and maybe even have avatars rebel against Bavadin herself. Thoughts?

[Quantus]

Based on the OB letters,

Spoiler

it sounds like they indeed could disagree (at least one might have supported Hoid, by the sound of things).  On the other hand, those same letters implied that Autonomy (either the Original or the Collective) do have some ability to shape their new avatars.  No clue if they maintain that connection or any lasting control. 

 

For me the question is whether the avatars are all created Equal. If they are equal chunks that are being scattered then Id anticipate them having full Autonomy from the rest.  If on the other hand there remains a Prime hexadiety (Bavadin Id assume) then Id suspect that their Power could still be countered (either revoked/reclaimed or at least shut down) if they challenged the Prime directly.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Quantus
Almost forgot Spoiler tags

[DracostarA]

See, I could go either way regarding the level of control Bavadin would have. I believe there will be a Prime, and it is Bavadin in the Taldain system. I'm curious to how the conflict would work, as we know Sja-Anat seemingly wants to betray Odium and he doesn't appear to know, but we don't know if he is capable of destroying/changing her if he found out. However, I also believe that would specifically go against the intent of Bavadin's Shard - in destroying/revoking her avatars, she would be punishing them for disagreeing with her, so even if she were capable of it, I think that she would be unable to due to the restrictions set upon her by the Autonomy Shard.

[Calderis]

I don't believe they are splinters. 

The introduction of new terminology (Avatar) makes me think that these are something completely different. 

Because of the word "Avatar" I think these are new Cognitive entities, all connecting back to a single Spiritual Aspect (Bavadin's). A projection of the Shard itself. 

If they were simply Splinters, I don't see the need for new terminology at all. 

[DracostarA]

So you believe they are just different manifestations of Autonomy in the Physical Realm, just in different locations but with the same mind? So similar to how Odium is bound to Braize but can still manifest on Roshar, just with more than one manifestation? You might have something here as Brandon said 'Patji is a Shard' IIRC and that is notably different from it being a Splinter.

Edited July 20, 2018 by DracostarA

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

So you believe they are just different manifestations of Autonomy just in different locations but with the same mind? So similar to how Odium is bound to Braize but can still manifest on Roshar, just with more than one manifestation? You might have something here as Brandon said 'Patji is a Shard' IIRC and that is notably different from it being a Splinter.

No, distinct Cognitive entities with a shared spiritual aspect. 

As separate mentally as a spren and their Radiant. 

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yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

source

Where the Spren and the Radiant are originally two being that merge spiritually, I think she's creating new minds that are a part of the same Spiritual whole. 

[Wandering Investor]

Calderis believes they are multiple minds, but one soul. Assuming I understand his interpretation, as I was a little confused last time he explained it.

I think that Autonomy is finding investiture that is connected to her, but not controlled by her. She then encourages this source of investiture to sapience, building in some foundational rules and forging a strong connection to it to ensure compliance with the greater autonomy. 

And then there was another theory that the avatars are just mask that Autonomy jumps between.

So the theories go from completely autonomous to not at all. Without any writing that contains viewpoints from Autonomy, its hard to tell.

[DracostarA]

Just to clarify, what separates that from a Splinter? If the Splinter is made of the same Investiture of the Shard but has independent thought, is it not a distinct Cognitive entity with a shared Spiritual aspect with the Shard?

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

Just to clarify, what separates that from a Splinter? If the Splinter is made of the same Investiture of the Shard but has independent thought, is it not a distinct Cognitive entity with a shared Spiritual aspect with the Shard?

A Splinter, like Syl, is composed of the investiture of a Shard, but is completely it's own entity. It has its own aspect in all three realms. 

A Splinter is going to have access to only the investiture it is composed of. 

These Avatars, in my opinion, have access to the full power of the shard, because they are not distinct from its Vessel. They are, in truth still Bavadin. But they are a completely independent mind. 

[Fatikis]

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. So in your opinion Autonomy's Avatars are not autonomous? 

In my opinion I'd say one of the only things that is safe to assume is that Autonomy's avatars are each their own distinct being. If the avatars are just Bavadin her mind would not be able to accommodate the additional investiture. The entire point of avatars seems to be that they a separate entities and therefor have the mental capacity to be aware of more investiture. Reducing the limitation of a single vessel trying to work with the infinite.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Fatikis said:

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. So in your opinion Autonomy's Avatars are not autonomous? 

In my opinion I'd say one of the only things that is safe to assume is that Autonomy's avatars are each their own distinct being. If the avatars are just Bavadin her mind would not be able to accommodate the additional investiture. The entire point of avatars seems to be that they a separate entities and therefor have the mental capacity to be aware of more investiture. Reducing the limitation of a single vessel trying to work with the infinite.

Do you consider Syl and Kaladin to be lack autonomy in this way? Shallan and Pattern? Dalinar and the stormfather? They are merging, according to the WoB I posted earlier. One individual with separate minds. 

I think Bavadin is doing the same thing. Only instead of merging multiple individuals to create one Spiritual entity, she's growing new Cognitive entities from one existing Spiritual aspect. They are no more Bavadin Cognitively then a Surgebinder and their spren are the same person. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Calderis

[DracostarA]

@Calderis Do you believe then that there can/will be conflict between these avatars in your theory? If so could one access more of Autonomy's Investiture i.e. if they have existed for longer and are more experienced, or do you think they are all equivalent in strength?

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

@Calderis Do you believe then that there can/will be conflict between these avatars in your theory? If so could one access more of Autonomy's Investiture i.e. if they have existed for longer and are more experienced, or do you think they are all equivalent in strength?

I think as separate minds, yes they can disagree.

I think that they will be equivalent in strength because they are all drawing off the same Spiritual pool of power of power, though skill would vary. 

I don't think that they will be prone to infighting. I think differences between them will come down to methodology and they will be aligned goal wise. The manner in which they think about things should be different, but they are all Autonomy. True opposition would be fighting themselves. 

Because of all of this I think that overall, Autonomy is accessing and using more investiture as a whole throughout the Cosmere than the other Shards... But I also think that these entities are built from Bavadin's own limited consciousness. She is essentially making a "Cognitive Sliver" of herself to do this and as such I think while each is expanded similarly to how a Vessel is expanded, she is still weakening herself to do so. There has to be a cost. 

So basically I think that the pool of investiture available for use to Autonomy is larger than for other Shards, but each Avatar is individually weaker than a Shard that hasn't split its psyche in this way. They are greater in total, but individually less. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Calderis

[DracostarA]

Quote

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

So I just came across this segment from a fairly long WoB regarding Autonomy's influence relating to Patji. The full WoB is here https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e9385 but the gist is (I think) Autonomy found some residual Adonalsium Investiture on First of the Sun and influenced it to align with her own intent and that is what the 'avatar' is in this case. However, in that WoB Brandon also mentions that saying too much about Patji would give things away.

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But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex.

This section of the WoB however does seem to confirm these avatars are not Splinters, at least not as we have come to know them and we probably don't have sufficient information to make too educated a guess here.

I'm not sure if this helps or hurts anyone's theories but just thought it would be relevant to the discussion!

[Calderis]

@DracostarA that WoB, long as it is, is the basis of a lot of my thinking, and it has to do with the nature of Shards as we know them.

All shards are infinite. There is no "Adonalsium Investiture" any longer. 

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Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

source

All of the Shards have investiture elsewhere. They just can't access it because they are limited by where they have invested. 

Quote

Questioner

How far does Sazed's power actually extend?

Brandon Sanderson

It is mostly limited to his immediate sphere of influence, so the planet.

Questioner

But doesn't he move stars at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he moved the planet. His solar system, he can definitely have influence on the solar system. But none of the other planets around Scadrial are inhabited.

source

Harmony is localized by its Cognitive, just as Odium is bound to the Rosharan system. 

I think the entire point to Bavadin doing what she's doing, is that she's found a way to reach out through the Spiritual and touch pockets of her own Investiture and bypass the limitation that is on all of the Shards by literally giving that Investiture a new mind. The Spiritual realm is location independent, so she can "see" those pockets, even if she can't actual move her consciousness there. 

Any shard could do this. But they either haven't figured it out yet, or they view the cost as to high. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Calderis

[Fatikis]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Do you consider Syl and Kaladin to be lack autonomy in this way? Shallan and Pattern? Dalinar and the stormfather? They are merging, according to the WoB I posted earlier. One individual with separate minds. 

I think Bavadin is doing the same thing. Only instead of merging multiple individuals to create one Spiritual entity, she's growing new Cognitive entities from one existing Spiritual aspect. They are no more Bavadin Cognitively then a Surgebinder and their spren are the same person. 

With the bond here you have two separate minds and separate spirit webs. I guess we don't know how far the merging goes. It is possible a full radiant would merge completely with the spren. 

The more accurate example here however would be with an Honor spren and Tanavast. Is the sentient investiture of Honor spren the same as Tanavast? Investiture wise this is probably going to get really fuzzy and philosophical. However they do not share the same spirit web. The sentient investiture is a separate being than the shard holder.

I mostly just don't see why these being would share the same spirit web. It seems unnecessary. It also goes against the very basics of autonomy. I would think that Autonomous avatars would be completely autonomous. Beings with entirely their own individual self. 

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

I mostly just don't see why these being would share the same spirit web. It seems unnecessary. It also goes against the very basics of autonomy. I would think that Autonomous avatars would be completely autonomous. Beings with entirely their own individual self. 

I believe as I do for two reasons. I think that they are Autonomous, but to actually still be the Shard itself and not a Splinter they must be spiritually the same.

And mostly its because of the choice of the word Avatar. An avatar is a projection. A representation. Why choose that word of all words for something separate? 

[Fatikis]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I believe as I do for two reasons. I think that they are Autonomous, but to actually still be the Shard itself and not a Splinter they must be spiritually the same.

And mostly its because of the choice of the word Avatar. An avatar is a projection. A representation. Why choose that word of all words for something separate? 

You make a fair point here. I don't agree they share the same spirit web. That just feels very un-autonomy to me. I do agree there is something more going on here and that the choice of the word avatar is significant.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Fatikis said:

You make a fair point here. I don't agree they share the same spirit web. That just feels very un-autonomy to me. I do agree there is something more going on here and that the choice of the word avatar is significant.

Two points here. First, we don't know what 'Autonomy' means, which Brandon has nicely emphasized for us. Second, a Shard's Intent is not inwardly directed so it's entirely possible that these avatars can share Bavadin's spiritweb without this violating the way Shardic Intent operates vis a vis whatever definition of Autonomy that Intent actually represents..

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Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

To break up Unity. It's so hard to say, because Autonomy is a bit of a strange duck. Like, what counts as being Autonomous? Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? That's kind of your question that you get into. And the way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural affect, or part of the...? Does that make sense?

source

Quote

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

source

 

[Calderis]

@Weltall agreed. I don't belive the Cognitive entities that Autonomy is making are autonomous because of the intent. I believe they are separated by necessity to overcome the localization effects of the Cognitive Realm.

Bavadin's Cognitive aspect can't be in two completely different systems, just as as the other Shards we've seen are bound to their own invested systems. Even if Spiritually they are everywhere. 

So you create a new mind that can be elsewhere. It's a loophole. 

 

[Fatikis]

22 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Two points here. First, we don't know what 'Autonomy' means, which Brandon has nicely emphasized for us. Second, a Shard's Intent is not inwardly directed so it's entirely possible that these avatars can share Bavadin's spiritweb without this violating the way Shardic Intent operates vis a vis whatever definition of Autonomy that Intent actually represents..

 

We don't know for sure what Autonomy means in terms of shardic intent. We do know what autonomy means. A shardic intent being externally directed heavily implies that Autonomy would create autonomous beings.

Now if you were to say that Avatar's were part of Bavadin's spirit web this would make a lot of sense. A definition of autonomy is self cut. This explanation would give each avatar autonomy. This would also fill definitions of avatar as being released soul in bodily form. This would mean Bavadin self mutilates her own soul to create avatars. While they are pieces of autonomy they would each be separate and distinct. Likely growing their own spirit web overtime becoming individualized.

This would also likely give them access to autonomous investiture. Using similar principals to hemalurgy. The spike has a piece of soul. That piece of soul however is separate and distinct from the being. Completely unconnected.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Fatikis

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

This would also likely give them access to autonomous investiture. Using similar principals to hemalurgy. The spike has a piece of soul. That piece of soul however is separate and distinct from the being. Completely unconnected.

And again I have to wonder why the new terminology? If it is merely a chunk of Autonomy's investiture made sentient/sapient, how is it different from a Splinter? 

[Fatikis]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And again I have to wonder why the new terminology? If it is merely a chunk of Autonomy's investiture made sentient/sapient, how is it different from a Splinter? 

Starting with a piece of Bavadin's spirit web. Bavadin damaging herself to create the avatar. I don't think the spirit webs of all are connected. I think they are separate but originating from Bavadin. This would fulfill multiple definitions of autonomy. While in my opinion having connected spirit webs would go against autonomy.