Theory: Shards Can't Remember Their Names

[leinton]

However, it's also possible that Sazed's personality has changed, since he now holds Ruin's power. We know it twisted Ati into something he wasn't.

Unless Preservation would cancel that out. But I could also see how that would just drive him insane.

I doubt that it would drive him insane. I don't think the shards have voices or anything like that, so it's really more of simply molding to fit your power. Since he has the power of creation, preservation, and ruin, he would likely retain a more human personality in comparison to other shards.

Or maybe since he can keep the powers separate, he can switch between personalities? That would be kind of weird.

[Munin]

However, it's also possible that Sazed's personality has changed, since he now holds Ruin's power. We know it twisted Ati into something he wasn't.

Unless Preservation would cancel that out. But I could also see how that would just drive him insane.

I doubt that it would drive him insane. I don't think the shards have voices or anything like that, so it's really more of simply molding to fit your power. Since he has the power of creation, preservation, and ruin, he would likely retain a more human personality in comparison to other shards.

Ruin seemed to make Ati pretty crazy. I'm not saying it's likely to happen, but if it did, I don't think it would be a stretch.

[Andrew the Great]

Brandon has directly confirmed that Sazed's not going to go insane. The Shards' influences cancel each other out. Eric gave the quotes on this one. There's a thread about it over on TWG (Started by myself, and yet I'm still to lazy to go look it up....). It's called something like Sazed, Odium, and the effects of holding two Shards. Eric gives relevant quotes on the second page. I think.

[happyman]

Back on topic...

My guess is that the simplest explanation is true:  The Shardholders remember what their names used to be, but it just doesn't matter any more.  They have held their powers for so long, they embody the powers they are much more than they embody the people they once were, and their actual personal names are absolutely irrelevant to them or the other Shardholders.  Their birth name doesn't mean anything more to them than it does to us that we were all once single cells.

[Chaos]

This theory has been confirmed by Brandon to be false.

So, please remove this from any Espoused Theories list.

Now we need a better explanation for why Shards seem to just refer to themselves as their Shard name...

[Zas678]

(cont mini debate started on Signings Forum)

I think the reason why we don't ever hear the Shard's mortal names is that their shard name is the most important name they have. Just you aren't going to go around calling the Queen "Lizzy", Shards are more likely to use their title, which is the most important aspect of them to their followers.

So rather than saying: Hello. Prepare for destruction for I am ATI!!!!, it's more likely to go like. Hello. Prepare for destruction for I am RUIN!!!

It's not that they can't remember or don't want to remember who they were before. Just that it's not important. Their godly relations are much more important than their mortal ones.

[happyman]

(cont mini debate started on Signings Forum)

I think the reason why we don't ever hear the Shard's mortal names is that their shard name is the most important name they have. Just you aren't going to go around calling the Queen "Lizzy", Shards are more likely to use their title, which is the most important aspect of them to their followers.

So rather than saying: Hello. Prepare for destruction for I am ATI!!!!, it's more likely to go like. Hello. Prepare for destruction for I am RUIN!!!

It's not that they can't remember or don't want to remember who they were before. Just that it's not important. Their godly relations are much more important than their mortal ones.

This sounds right to me.

In addition, I would say that after eons of being molded to the power they hold, their relationship with their old selves would have become somewhat tenuous. If you spent fifty years being called Ati and a few thousand being called Ruin and generally enjoying destruction, which one would you think of yourself as? People can change their self-identity over the course of a single lifetime. When you have many longer times to consider, surely the changes can be more radical.

[CrazyRioter]

I agree with zas and happyman, I remember Brandon saying in the Mistborn annotations when talking about Ruin that there is "very little left of the mind that once was.", that Ati's original consciousness has been so throughly shaped by the power of the Shard that it doesn't bear much resemblance to what it was originally. So Ruin is basically a totally different person then Ati, so it makes sense that he doesn't think of himself as Ati anymore.

[Chaos]

Yeah, I think you're right. That's the simplest explanation, so let's go with that.

I guess I was just being silly.

[Zas678]

But this is a lot of hindsight bias, to be sure. We suddenly grow much more confident in our behaviors when we have a confirmation behind them.

[happyman]

But this is a lot of hindsight bias, to be sure. We suddenly grow much more confident in our behaviors when we have a confirmation behind them.

In my defense, I'm just reiterating the theory I always espoused (not formally, but I always felt it to be the simplest explanation).

[Chaos]

In my defense, I'm just reiterating the theory I always espoused (not formally, but I always felt it to be the simplest explanation).

No, you totally said this, and it's much smarter than anything I said.

[Zas678]

Okay, I'M having hindsight bias. It just makes me feel so much more right!

[CrazyRioter]

I said this back in February in the "powers and limitations of the shards" thread.

which may explain why the Shardholders don't call each other by their real names, the personalities of the original people have been basically obliterated, so it kind of wouldn't fit.

so, yeah, I've always disagreed strongly with Chaos's theory.

[Asha'man Logain]

I figure if we have individual theories, we can preface the topic with "Theory"

Here's a curious phenomena you may have noticed: when the people who hold Shards (Ati, Leras, Rayse, etc.)--on TWG its suggested we call them Shardholders, as to not confuse them with the Shards themselves, and also to distinguish between with Shardbearers--refer to other Shards, they don't refer to them as their names. You never see Ati call Preservation "Leras".

Furthermore, the Shards on Roshar always refer to each other as their Shard's name, rather than their true name: Odium, Cultivation (we don't know the Almighty's Shard yet because our info comes from the Almighty fairly exclusively). We know the guy who holds Odium, his name is Rayse! Why don't Shards just call him that?

Perhaps because they just don't remember what their names were.

After all, it's been said that Ati and Leras's minds had been well-molded into the Shard's Intent, and that takes centuries, perhaps millennia. This effect, where the person's mind gets molded to the Shard they control, could make the Shardholders believe their names are Ruin and Preservation, instead of their true names.

More alarming is that the epigraphs in Part Two of Way of Kings (the letter) suggests that these people, Seventeenth Sharders or Hoid, most likely, have been alive long enough to know who these people actually were. Since the Cognitive effects of the Shards apparently take an extremely long time, this means that these people have been alive for just as long.

Thus, I think we can safely say that whoever wrote the letter (probably Hoid) and its recipient do not have Shards, as if they did, they would eventually forget their names by now. Their immortality is separate somehow.

I might be wrong about the Shards forgetting their names. It's not like Ruin wouldn't be reminded that his name is Ati whenever he looks at some atium. That is probably the one issue with this theory. But, maybe Ati at this time believes he is Ruin and not Ati any longer? A curious effect, for sure.

This raises many, many questions. How does the letter writer know Ati and Rayse, and presumably all the other Shardholders? Peculiar.

Thoughts?

Sounds good. Although I have proof Hoid is NOT a Shardholder, and i think therefore we need to admit the possibility that the letter was not necessarrily written to other Shards of Adonalsium, but maybe to other immortal world travelers, who have both those powers some other way.

Interview with Brandon:

1. Are Kaladin's parents still alive, and if so, are they actually mad at him?

2. Is Hoid a Herald, or a Shareholder, or something else entirely.

3. Was the letter posted on the top of chapters to Sazed?

4. Do dead parshmen turn into Chasmfieds?

5. What is the dark-glowing sphere?

6. What did Szeth do to become a Truthless, and is there anything else involved in being a Truthless that we haven't seen?"

1. Yes, they are still alive. RAFO.

2. Hoid is something else entirely.

3. It is written to a character who exists outside of Roshar. I won't yet say who.

4. No.

5. Major big RAFO.

6. Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way, and you will learn more about that when his book comes along

[Chaos]

Sounds good. Although I have proof Hoid is NOT a Shardholder, and i think therefore we need to admit the possibility that the letter was not necessarrily written to other Shards of Adonalsium, but maybe to other immortal world travelers, who have both those powers some other way.

Interview with Brandon:

1. Are Kaladin's parents still alive, and if so, are they actually mad at him?

2. Is Hoid a Herald, or a Shareholder, or something else entirely.

3. Was the letter posted on the top of chapters to Sazed?

4. Do dead parshmen turn into Chasmfieds?

5. What is the dark-glowing sphere?

6. What did Szeth do to become a Truthless, and is there anything else involved in being a Truthless that we haven't seen?"

1. Yes, they are still alive. RAFO.

2. Hoid is something else entirely.

3. It is written to a character who exists outside of Roshar. I won't yet say who.

4. No.

5. Major big RAFO.

6. Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way, and you will learn more about that when his book comes along

I believe you are right, that the letter was written to other world hoppers.

For the Brandonothology (our record of all interviews and Q&A's) I was wondering when that interview happened, and also if those are direct quotes or paraphrasings?

[Asha'man Logain]

I believe you are right, that the letter was written to other world hoppers.

For the Brandonothology (our record of all interviews and Q&A's) I was wondering when that interview happened, and also if those are direct quotes or paraphrasings?

It was from goodreads.com, It is a direct quote. The board members posted questions and Brandon posted the answers himself. Here is the link http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/446239-q-a-with-brandon-sanderson-way-of-kings I think I've seen bits and pieces of it quoted here before

[Joe ST]

well it doesn't mean they've ALL been around since before the shattering/whenever the current holder got the shard. Since we know (do we?) that Hoid was at the Event (of Adonalsium's 'demise'), then it could be that whoever he's speaking to has just been informed by him and/or has experienced the latter effects of the Shard. And if he IS talking to a newer Shard, then it seems the Intent part holds memories, or so it went with Ruin and Preservation no?

To have witnessed the Event, surely Hoid must have been important enough to be 'in the room' when whatever happened happened, which indicates that he's old or immortal, or maybe just a very good time traveler XD

[WeiryWriter]

I do not think that the Shards can't remember their "mortal" names. Its just they no longer think of themselves that way. As Brandon says when a person inherits a Shards power they are the Shard. They would naturally think of themselves and the other Shards as the Shards, not as the humans they once were.

[Eri]

WeiryWriter, the theory in this thread is actually falsified – Sanderson said the same thing that you write here. :-)

[WeiryWriter]

Oh, I did not see that. Hmm what was it that Hoid said about timeliness?...

[Chaos]

Right, I need to close this topic.

Falsified.