Is it possible for a metalmind to gain sapience?

[Kaj]

From what I know about spren on Roshar is that they were bits of investiture that slowly formed and gained sapience. Is it possible for a fully invested, large metalmind to gain sapience on its own? I know that one way to artificially do it is to awaken it, but I was wondering if there were a way for it to become sapient like spren on Roshar.

[Calderis]

Yeah, when I said eons I was meaning that it I don't think it's worth contemplating. Even if a metalmind did develop a mind, it would be something similar to Nightblood in the way that it functions. Thinking, feeling, maybe capable of speaking to others... But completely incapable of locomotion under its own power. 

The form of a metalmind additionally seems, in my mind, to be something that should add stability to the form of the investiture so that it actually takes longer to develop. 

So let me rephrase what I said earlier. I think that eventually a metalmind would gain a mind, but I don't think it would happen in a timeframe that we will ever witness. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara]

The Bands were pretty darn invested, were left that way for what? a century or two? and weren't anywhere near sentience, let alone sapience.

[Wandering Investor]

I do not think so. 

The spren(higher spren) are described as being shaped by either the shards or other spren, not spontaneously gaining sentience. And lesser spren seem to be a feature of the expanse that Roshar occupies. 

So I do not think a metalmind could gain sentience. Maybe is it was big enough, but the amount of investiture that would require would be massive. Probably one of those, its possible but not plausible.

[The Sovereign]

If the Metalmind was invested with enough Investiture I suspect it would eventually gain sapience.

Here is a somewhat related WoB:

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Say you have a Feruchemist who pours Identity into a metalmind. Then subsequently loses that mind, and then is later Awakened? Would that mind retain the personality of--

*Everyone laughs, Scottish man says "it's 11 o'clock at night, give the man a break!"*

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so they store Identity—which I haven't told you what it does--

Questioner

Yep. We don't know.

Brandon Sanderson

And then you Awaken it, and then you want to know if it has the personality of the person?

Questioner

Yeah, or if it's able to communicate in any way.

Brandon Sanderson

Um, if-- how much Awakened is it? Is it Nightblood-level Awakened? Or is it just regular Awakened?

Questioner

Sure let's say Nightblood-level.

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood-level. So it's-- so the Investiture has been granted sapience. And it's got Investiture from somebody else stuffed in it. I can foresee a scenario where that has an influence, but it's not going to be the personality of the person who stuffed it in. I can see some circumstances where they can-- where the Investiture of the object can make use of that in some way, but...

Oh boy, that was a weird one.

source

 

 

[Pagerunner]

In the Bands of Mourning broadsheet, there's an ad from "K&N" looking for anyone with tools that talk to them. I think Khriss and Nazh are looking for metalminds that have become intelligent, like you've suggested - but we don't see whether it's actually possible, or if it will turn out to be an incorrect theory of theirs.

[The Sovereign]

11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

In the Bands of Mourning broadsheet, there's an ad from "K&N" looking for anyone with tools that talk to them. I think Khriss and Nazh are looking for metalminds that have become intelligent, like you've suggested - but we don't see whether it's actually possible, or if it will turn out to be an incorrect theory of theirs.

I thought of this as well. Although I also always though they were referring to Nightblood and other awakened swords. 

OB Spoiler:

Since we know Azure

Vivenna

traded information about Awakened swords with Spren in Shadesmar it stands to reason these types of things will become more common going forward.

[Kaj]

One thought I had is what if you were hiding in Shadesmar and filled the thing for over a century with the intent of making it sapient?

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Kaj said:

One thought I had is what if you were hiding in Shadesmar and filled the thing for over a century with the intent of making it sapient?

There is a maximum amount of investiture that a metalmind can hold. If you lived that long, and spent the whole time filling... I'd have to imagine that you'd reach a maximum saturation point for any reasonably sized metalmind. 

The real question is how long it would take for a mind to develop in a metalmind that were filled and left alone. I'm sure it would happen eventually. Investiture seeks a mind to guide it... But it may take eons to occur. 

[Kaj]

I'm thinking a pretty ridiculously large metalmind filled completely.

[Kaj]

Let's say an earth sized metalmind just for kicks. Filled by the Lord Ruler himself.

[+hwiles]

On 6/1/2018 at 0:24 PM, Kaj said:

From what I know about spren on Roshar is that they were bits of investiture that slowly formed and gained sapience. Is it possible for a fully invested, large metalmind to gain sapience on its own? I know that one way to artificially do it is to awaken it, but I was wondering if there were a way for it to become sapient like spren on Roshar.

So on Roshar my recollection is that the spren began to develop, at least in part, as a manifestation of other sapient being's personification of the forces/things around them.

I can't see a normal metalmind gaining sapience without awakening; I feel like a single person just doesn't have the gravity to warp the three realms enough to create a thinking being from so small a container of Investiture.

However...if you had thousands of ferrings worshipping and periodically storing investiture into a massive idol composed of all 16 metals (or fewer, it would just be easier to get contributors with all 16) I could definitely see that going somewhere.

For example, maybe the first generation or two of worshippers view contributing a little Investiture now and then as a ceremonial token sacrifice to show their love and devotion for their community. Time goes on, the first few generations die off, and now the idol becomes a symbol of immortality and continuity; a sort of partial vessel for the souls and wisdom of lost loved ones.

I don't imagine such a creature would be capable of much more than existing and perhaps, if it grew Invested enough, speaking to those with a strong Connection to it.

I think the basic idea absolutely has merit and I expect that with a little creativity a wildly accelerated process could be pitched that is, at least for the time-being, consistent with the rules of the Cosmere as we know them. That said, I don't see this happening for one reason: bringing objects to life is awakening's main draw. I think it's what makes warbreaker interesting and if it stops being unique that would make the eventual sequel less fun.

[Kaj]

@hwiles I think you're on to something. Thanks for the idea.

[I think I am here.]

I haven't read any of the second era, so my choice is restricted to Era 1 and SH, but Spook's scenes in HoA made it for me. I had trouble between HoA and SH, just seeing what Kelsier was doing since TFA was really cool