Quantus he/him Posted June 1, 2018 Report Share Posted June 1, 2018 Greetings! I had a theory on the nature of Fortune in the Cosmere recently. It got some traction on reddit but I wanted to see what you, the true guru's of the cosmere, thought of it, and especially if there were any holes we could poke in the idea at this point. My current wild and unsupported guess on Fortune is based almost entirely on two Hoid datapoints: 1) Hoid uses Fortune to apparently pop up at Comsere-significant moments without actually being consciously aware of Why; 2) Hoid cannot cause Physical Harm to himself or others, and per WoB even considering the idea would cause an incapacitating physical nausea response. Fortune Theory: I think Fortune in the Realmic Sense is a person's (or planet or Shard, etc) Alignment to their own Perfect Ideal that exists in the Spiritual Realm. Somewhere out in space and time there is a winding series of moments, movements, and choices that will take you closer toward that Perfect Self (which is itself paradoxically based on your own self-image, but whatever). Good Luck is a step closer to that Perfection, Bad Luck is a step away. Hoid Theory: Hoid is a being that has somehow managed to pull the ol' Ender's Game trick, and reorient himself so that his Spiritual Perfection is Down; he now exists in a perpetual state of Falling toward his Goal and own personal Idealized State of the Cosmere (you could think of it as Hoid having Lashed Fate, rather than Gravity). He cannot Cause harm to himself or others because Physical Harm is itself an act that pushes the target (self or others) further away from their own Perfect Self. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 1, 2018 Report Share Posted June 1, 2018 Fortune, in the few tidbits we have about it, seems to be mainly concerned with future sight. Atium was foreshadowing Fortune. I believe that Feruchemical fortune, which is what Hoid's use has been likened to, would be reading his future and his future only, which would explain why he'd know where he needs to go, but not the reason he's supposed to be there. His future let's him know where he's going to be, but without reading any of the people or objects he's going to interact with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted June 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Fortune, in the few tidbits we have about it, seems to be mainly concerned with future sight. I believe that Feruchemical fortune, which is what Hoid's use has been likened to, would be reading his future and his future only, which would explain why he'd know where he needs to go, but not the reason he's supposed to be there. His future let's him know where he's going to be, but without reading any of the people or objects he's going to interact with. Nice connect. That would fit with this theory: Fortune-As-Future-Sight would functionally become being able to View that twisting path that leads to your Ideal. It also goes a little ways toward explaining why Atium with a Duralumin burst gives you that single "Ultimate" effect timeline. Such things would be largely Subjective I feel, which is part of why I keep latching onto the idea that Fortune is relative to your Spiritual Realm Self that is your own Idealized Self-Image. What else would define the Good vs Bad part of good or bad fortune? The Spiritual Realm ideal is outside of Time Itself (which is why it would function as a means of future sight) but it /does/ change over time as the Person changes; as the idea of who and what they think they are and/or should be evolves. Edited June 1, 2018 by Quantus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 17, 2018 Report Share Posted June 17, 2018 Remember, the future is not fixed. Seeing seconds into the future with Atium shows a future where you didn't burn Atium and reacted however you'd normally act. However, acting differently changes how they would react to you, as Vin shows us. I believe that not taking itself into account is a fundamental weakness of Fortune. Fortune allows you to detect how the world will act. It then lets you change your decisions to alter the future. However, the more you alter from the baseline, the more your picture will be flawed. This is why Cultivation said predicting the future is hard; it is difficult for even the mind of a Shard to calculate how their actions would change the world that they see. However, this is not the biggest limiter on Fortune. As Atium shows us, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to predict how Fortune-users will act. This is further complicated by the fact that Fortune has limits. You may not be able to process the myriad possibilities, or there may be a restriction. Atium's restriction is that Atium shadows have to be seen. For example, if you did it properly, you could probably stab an Atium burner in the back. So- Wait, I had a thought! What if Odium can't see Renarin because he is able to use Fortune too! Now I've lost my train of thought. This whole post only half makes sense, but the half is really cool! At least that's what I think. I'm just going to post this now... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 17, 2018 Report Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, The Young Pyromancer said: Atium's restriction is that Atium shadows have to be seen. For example, if you did it properly, you could probably stab an Atium burner in the back. So- This isn't completely true. Atium shoes the shadows, and also expands the mind to process the information. Vin mentions that while burning atium she seems to start dodging before she's seen an attack. Quote "Well," Ham said. "Barring surprise, there isn't much. Some people think that you might be able to kill an atium-using Mistborn if you catch them in an unavoidable situation. It's like a game of fets—sometimes, the only way to take a piece is to corner it so that no matter which way it moves, it dies. "Doing that to a Mistborn is pretty tough, though. The thing is, atium lets the Mistborn see the future—so he knows when a move will trap him, and so he can avoid the situation. The metal is supposed to enhance his mind somehow, too." "It does. When I'm burning atium, I often dodge before I even register the attacks that are coming." Ham nodded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 17, 2018 Report Share Posted June 17, 2018 Still, that's enhanced reflexes. Her conscious mind didn't register it, but her subconscious did. And if she can't see it... I think this could be interpreted both ways. I just think my way is more likely and makes more sense. I can see why you'd think otherwise though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted June 17, 2018 Report Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) Given that atium (and other visually-oriented metals like A-Gold) can be used by the blind, I don't think that being unable to see the atium shadow because it's showing something behind you is actually a limitation. 3 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said: Wait, I had a thought! What if Odium can't see Renarin because he is able to use Fortune too! This is a valid theory and fits with the examples we've seen in Mistborn where two people burning atium (or one burning electrum as a counter) will confuse the future-sight because they're both seeing the future, reacting to it and creating so many potential paths that reading what actually will happen becomes impossible. Edited June 17, 2018 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftucker0525 Posted June 17, 2018 Report Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) On 17/06/2018 at 2:31 AM, The Young Pyromancer said: Wait, I had a thought! What if Odium can't see Renarin because he is able to use Fortune too! This would imply that the distance Renarin and Odium can see into the future is the same, which is kind of interesting. Edited June 18, 2018 by Overlord Jebus Removed OB Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 Well, Vin was a stronger Allomancer than Shan Elariel but she didn't have an edge in their fight. Plus, Odium is Passion, so he might not see the future as much because he is living in the moment. Than again, Hatred can be crafty, waiting years to get revenge. It can be interpreted both ways. And Odium could still see Renarin, it was just harder to predict. A wrench in the works of his master plan. A deviation. A move by Cultivation? Sorry for derailing this thread slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 I've moved this to the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, as a lot of the Fortune discussion will inevitably lead there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goody153 Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) Odium not seeing Renarin is probably a specific roshar or Odium shard-blindness similar to Ruin/Preservation with metals. Just spitballing tho based on that shards have blindness of some sorts(tho they vary apparently) Edited June 19, 2018 by goody153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 12 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said: Plus, Odium is Passion, so he might not see the future as much because he is living in the moment. Odium is not Passion, darn it. Fite me. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW] Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW] So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Part of him does. Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW] Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Yes, that implies that Odium is lying to himself and everyone else when he claims he is Passion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 On 6/17/2018 at 4:22 PM, jefftucker0525 said: This would imply that the distance Renarin and Odium can see into the future is the same, which is kind of interesting. Not necessarily. All that's really required for the idea to work is that Renarin can see the future well enough that he can react to and change what he sees, in enough lead time that there are a large number of possible results that could happen. It wouldn't even have to be that long a lead time if he's in the right place at the right time like he was at the end of Oathbringer. Odium may be able to see everything else but Renarin and the consequences of all his possible choices would be a blind spot. Given what happened at the end, it seems like since Odium couldn't see Renarin or his actions, his own future-sight 'skipped over' those possible outcomes and he was convinced that his plan for Dalinar would succeed because it was the most probable outcome he did see. In other words, Odium didn't know that he had a blind spot. True, we know there was another Shard playing an indirect role in the outcome but it's not necessary that Cultivation did anything directly to cloud Odium's foresight for the Renarin Blind Spot theory to work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted June 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Agreed, Id say Renarin could spoil Odium's far more comprehensive future sight on the same general principle that Electrum can spoil Atium: his ability to see ahead and react to what he sees would make it impossible for anyone to predict the outcome with 100% certainty. But it doesnt spoil Odium's entire vision, just the very specific wedge of causality that Renarin is capable of influencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 I think we may have solved the blind spot issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted June 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 Because the Fortune thing is very plausible and seems like a workable theory until we know for sure. Should we move this theory to a different thread to get more people's feedback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIAndy Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 All future sight in the Cosmere seems to get disturbed when more than one uses it and acts on it. That must have been quite a problem for the Truthwatchers, an entire Order of people with future sight. I guess that is why they turned to secrecy. Interact as little as possible and that includes speaking and your visions might stay calm. Maybe some small deliberate actions that cause managable ripples but otherwise leave the pond of the future undisturbed. As long as they agreed on that, they are at least somewhat able to talk to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 It's generally assumed that because seeing the future is of him, it's an application of Voidbinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szmit Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 10 hours ago, AIAndy said: All future sight in the Cosmere seems to get disturbed when more than one uses it and acts on it. That must have been quite a problem for the Truthwatchers, an entire Order of people with future sight. I guess that is why they turned to secrecy. Interact as little as possible and that includes speaking and your visions might stay calm. Maybe some small deliberate actions that cause managable ripples but otherwise leave the pond of the future undisturbed. As long as they agreed on that, they are at least somewhat able to talk to each other. According to Ivory, the Jasnah's inkspren, real Truthwatchers can't see future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted June 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 On 6/21/2018 at 10:03 PM, The Young Pyromancer said: Because the Fortune thing is very plausible and seems like a workable theory until we know for sure. Ah, cool. Sorry, I thought you meant something new had dropped to settle it more definitively, a new WoB or something. On 6/22/2018 at 5:32 PM, Szmit said: According to Ivory, the Jasnah's inkspren, real Truthwatchers can't see future. Agreed. I got the impression that normal Truthwatchers get Perception-based abilities, but that their dont normally cross out of the realm of the Present (maybe Past too?). I could see the two Surges working together that way: Progression that can interact and supercharge what something Is (Growth) or Is Supposed To Be (ReGrowth), and Illusion can broadly interact with and Manipulate Light and Sound, which could easily combine into audio-visual perception of wide-ranging places or targets. It just seems that crossing the line from what something Is to what it Will Be is a particularly taboo distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szmit Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Quantus said: Agreed. I got the impression that normal Truthwatchers get Perception-based abilities, but that their dont normally cross out of the realm of the Present (maybe Past too?). I could see the two Surges working together that way: Progression that can interact and supercharge what something Is (Growth) or Is Supposed To Be (ReGrowth), and Illusion can broadly interact with and Manipulate Light and Sound, which could easily combine into audio-visual perception of wide-ranging places or targets. It just seems that crossing the line from what something Is to what it Will Be is a particularly taboo distinction. I also belive that Spiritual Ilumination allows you to see present and past in diffrent places - like Shallan (who has Ilumination) saw Shalash destroying art that displayed her (after her ship was soulcasted). More of my thoughts on that there Edited June 25, 2018 by Szmit fixed link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Pyromancer he/him Posted June 26, 2018 Report Share Posted June 26, 2018 The spiritual realm is not location-based, so that is probably accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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