AIAndy

All future sight in the Cosmere seems to get disturbed when more than one uses it and acts on it. That must have been quite a problem for the Truthwatchers, an entire Order of people with future sight. I guess that is why they turned to secrecy. Interact as little as possible and that includes speaking and your visions might stay calm. Maybe some small deliberate actions that cause managable ripples but otherwise leave the pond of the future undisturbed. As long as they agreed on that, they are at least somewhat able to talk to each other.

Possible, I just think that the part of the splintered mind of Adonalsium you are connected to is what gives you powers and when combined then resonance.

I think the Resonance for Surgebinders is between the associated Divine Attributes, not between the surges. That fits better with the Windrunner Resonance of "Protective + Leading -> More Squires" and the Lightweaver Resonance of "Creative + Honest -> Mnemonic Device".

Stormseat, which is the city that was at the center of the Shattered Plains, was the capital of Natanatan, which is a Silver Kingdom. The Silver Kingdoms are associated with the Heraldic Epochs, the time before Aharietiam. Stormseat is also believed to have been destroyed during Aharietiam. So one guess for the time of the shattering is the Last Desolation which was a long time before the Recreance.

I did not properly quote it, but my post was in reply to the post above mine with the speculation that it might have been TLR who created them after all and Kelsier only found them. While you are probably right that some kind of mutation was required, just look at koloss to see what hemalurgy can do to appearance. Spiking humans in the right way with the BoM might well damage their spiritweb enough to turn them into goo monsters.

Could the BoM be the artifacts that TLR used to remove the Feruchemical abilities from the First Generation of Kandra? Rip them out of the spirit web with the BoM spear used as a hemalurgical spike. The complicated way the artifact is built might have been a necessity to take the power with hemalurgy without killing them.

I think it is clear from WoBs that Brandon has nuclear reactions in mind in regards to Shards. Hard to split, hard to merge and the resulting Intent is more than the sum of its parts. My guess is that the Divine Attributes are examples of the parts that make up a Shard's Intent when combined, in this case for Honor and Cultivation.

Thank you. That confirms that his intention is to be the only shard, but the question remains why. I consider it unlikely that he wants to spread the power to the people, but he might want to remove all gods to avoid any such power. So he picked the shard most suited to that plan. Eventually he wants to be the only god, hated by all for interfering whenever someone assembles too much investiture (but staying in the background otherwise).

While this might be the case, that WoB is not the exact words so there might be some misunderstanding. Even if it is exact, it does not say why he wants to be the only shard. Is the motivation maximum splintering for whatever perceived greater good or is the motivation to dominate everything and play games with mortals afterwards (which imo sounds quite cliche).

The WoBs mainly say that he targets shards or vessels that would oppose him. So what is the plan he has that they would oppose? If that plan is maximum splintering to make sure Adonalsium is never reformed, then it is clear that he is evil from Hoid's point of view (who many suspect is working on reforming Adonalsium). But seen from someone who thinks concentrated power is dangerous, he might be considered as working for the greater good. The shards he previously targetted would fit to that at least. Ambition sounds like a shard that might really try to conquer other shards and then two shards who already intermingled on the same planet which both had a kind of Unity as theme (one by conquering/dominating, the other by love/devotion).

I think Moash was the right one to kill Jezrien because he had become similar enough to his current state to form the connection needed to kill him. The Honorblade would have been counterproductive to that. They needed someone who had lost the will to lead and to protect but previously had it (and if the third attribute theory is correct, then the same also for something like rage).

Maybe the large one contained nearly an entire Divine Attribute of a shard, so a tenth of the investiture. Ripping it out of the shard might have caused the cataclysm on Ashyn then. It might have been part of Odium's plan to get rid of his Compassion, becoming Hatred instead of Passion.

That does indeed point at the Stormfather being that old and not only the Highstorms. Merging and resplitting would be a reason for a personality change but I wonder what that would do to the Highstorm. Yes, definitely earlier than that but it might have been considerably earlier as in during the last desolation.

The highstorms are that old, but are we sure that the Stormfather is? It is quite a large spren and I wonder if the investiture levels were high enough at that point. Indeed, at the end of the Last Desolation, that one at least has a definite time. Correct, it must have been in the time of the Desolations. Yes, definitely older than the Recreance. What is that time based on? I thought the Silver Kingdoms were supposed to have been in the Heraldic Epochs which ended with the Last Desolation? There is a WoB that talks about different investiture types interfering with each other and that he considered a certain large merge to be like a nuclear reaction that only works when there are very large investiture levels around. And I'd say that means there is a lot of energy in that that would be freed if you reverse it.

One more thing I want to add to the initial theory. There is a lot of energy in that kind of bonding of different investiture types, so breaking them is likely to cause something like a large explosion. As one Dawnshard is supposed to be different, it might have been considerably larger. When the bond between the Herald (probably Ishar) and that was broken, the explosion might have been big enough to rip the merged investiture apart, raising the explosion to nuclear level. That would explain why the Bondsmith Unmade is missing and why the Shattered Plains are what they are now. It might also have been the birth of the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and the Sibling (I guess they are Siblings then).

Ok, possible, lets follow that line of thought. Do you have a theory about what his motive would be to do that? And what do you think a Dawnshard is in the context of disease?

That WoB mainly says that it is a matter of power level, of the amount of investiture present. You won't "find Syl" because the amount of investiture is too low for it to develop that kind of sapience. The amount of investiture needed for the kind of cataclysm that caused the humans to leave Ashyn is far higher than that of a minor shardworld. Odium was involved there so he is the prime suspect of the source of the investiture. And the writers of the Eila Stele at least believe the humans caused it so it is not too far-fetched that they wielded Odium's investiture in some kind of magic system.

I doubt Ashyn's magic system was already disease based at that point unless they somehow achieved to completely eradicate those diseases while moving to Roshar. The talk about the Dawnshards gave me the idea though that they might be the voidspren bound to mortals that they brought along from Ashyn.

The kind of natural occurance as on Roshar is probably not present on Ashyn as it seems to require the occurance of investiture pools in the Cognitive Realm which I assume are related to the Highstorms. But Shards can create spren and we have seen some of those on other worlds. I think Odium created the voidspren for surgebinding on Ashyn, maybe even only one per type originally, somewhat larger than the typical KR spren.

That WoB says there is a slight difference but the same basic principles which would be easily satisfied by the difference of voidspren associated with one shard and radiant spren associated with two shards and the difference in the kind of powers you get from the surges. The way that the bond is established is probably different as well as in no oaths and maybe you have to swallow a gemstone similar to how Amaram bonded Yelig-nar. A system without spren bond would be more than a slight difference and also not really fitting to the Eila Stele: " They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. "

About Divine Attributes The Divine Attributes listed for the Heralds are very interesting. As discussed in the past, it seems that each Herald has one attribute that is associated with Honor and one that is associated with Cultivation. I'd say that those attributes merged together form the Intent of the shard. Similarly the Radiant Spren are made up of the same two divine attributes as the Herald with which they share a Radiant Order. In them we can see that compounding attributes results in more than the sum of their parts. Cryptics are not well described by creative and honest, but show more of a Creative Honesty, making up new interesting truths. It seems that surge access is filtered by those compounded attributes so the powers you gain change with it. If you consider the divine attributes to be part of a mind, then it is not too far-fetched to assume that similar to emotional allomancy you can push or pull on it, rioting or soothing the respective attribute. So while you need to be strong in the two Divine Attributes of an Order to attract the spren and ease the formation of the bond, once the bond is in place the Attributes of the spren will riot the respective Attributes in the mind of the Radiant Knight. About the Making and Unmaking of the Heralds From the Eila Stele we know that the Dawnsingers believed that the humans destroyed their previous world (Ashyn) with powers of spren and Surges (Surgebinding) and with them came a new god, their god (Odium). I think it is quite likely that the spren bonded for Surgebinding here were voidspren of Odium. So what happened to the Surgebinders? Did they die or did they come along to Roshar? And if they came along, I assume they came with their voidspren still bonded. So what if one from each order of Surgebinders bonded to voidspren (maybe their leaders) is what later became the Heralds. When Honor made the Heralds in the Oathpact, he merged their respective voidspren with either a Radiant Spren or a similar part of his own and Cultivation's investiture and bonded it closely to their cognitive shadow, making them more spren than man. That means each Herald has a third unlisted divine attribute, associated with Odium, most probably related to emotion. This likely also gave them somewhat different powers from the surges when not using their Honorblades. Later Odium unmade them by breaking that bond and the spren part became the Unmade. That means each Unmade should also have all three divine attributes (compounded), even if the one from Odium dominates. The Heralds became insane afterwards. I think the reason is that breaking a bond leaves a wound in the spirit web that leaks the connected attribute, so after some time you are soothed more and more on it. The previously rioted divine attributes are now soothed causing insanity from withdrawal and lack of balance in the mind. In a way, I think Nale is less insane and I suspect it is because he bonded a Highspren. This would mean that a new bond on the same attributes can heal that wound to a degree so he mainly leaks the Odium attribute. If this theory is true, then we should be able to match a Herald with an Unmade each, finding the two listed Divine Attributes and a third Odium attribute in each (compounded, so influencing each other, forming a whole). For the Heralds during the Desolations those should be rioted, for the present day ones they should be soothed. Additionally voidspren and the Fused should provide hints about the respective Odium attribute of each type. Finally Renarin probably has one of the Truthwatcher attributes switched for the respective Odium attribute (or it was added on top, which is even more likely). The easiest match to look at is probably Jezrien and Nergaoul aka the Thrill. The listed attributes are Protecting and Leading. For the third I'd suggest something like Rage, as the battlerage protects and leads those the Thrill touches. Present-day beggar Jezrien has quite some similarities to Dalinar in Thrill withdrawal. There is not that much direct information about the behavior of old times Jezrien, but his clothing is supposed to be oftentimes stained and charred by battle and after Aharietiam he claimed to go to lead the "charge" for the Tranquiline Halls. So I'd say it is not impossible that a battlerage is in character for him. The second possible match I want to look at is Shalash and Re-Shephir. The listed attributes are Creative and Honest, but as stated above, that compounds more into Creative Honesty. And Re-Shephir's Midnight Essences can take different forms similar to the illusions that Lightweavers are capable of (Midnight Essences have more substance though). Given that Re-Shephir is attracted to violence, maybe the third attribute is something like violent (I don't really think it fits completely)? There is little about old times Shalash (that I can remember) except for Sadeas claiming a Shalashian temperament. Present-day Shalash was mainly busy destroying any depictions of her past, lamenting her lost creativity and not appreciating the perception that people have of her. Soothed violence does not fit there.

Yes, he and most likely any shard cannot break a pact but then the betrayal I mention in the topic is a bit misleading. It was not meant as betraying a pact directly but instead betraying the trust in acting honorable about the pact by actively looking to use the pact to bind Odium by causing the humans to betray their god (which humans can do perfectly fine). Destruction on that level likely requires a lot of investiture and Odium at least is an investiture source that was there at some point so I don't think it is too unlikely that he was invested there, at least for a while. Do we have any source that he was named Odium directly after the splintering of Adonalsium? Frost says he is Hatred now but that does not rule out that he was broken and was Passion before. That poses the question though where the piece that was splintered off ended up.

Odium is usually depicted as the big bad and his Intent reduced to Hatred while Honor is considered good with all the positive connotation that word has and him helping humanity. I think this is intentional misleading by choice of name and their Intent is not limited to the word. Odium says that he is about passion and I am inclined to believe him. Honor is more about binding to an idea like an oath or a spren, less about this oath being good or honorable. While Odium is crafty and none of what he says should be taken as fact, we should not do the opposite either and discard everything because it is an evil corruptor saying it. Neither should everything Honor and/or the Stormfather says be taken as fact. Odium's splintering of Devotion and Dominion was not necessarily an evil act because we do not know how those shards were while alive and they did break a part of the original pact of the vessels. What I miss about Odium's passions though is love, so what about if he once loved and was betrayed by that love, breaking him forever. Not love for a fellow shard but love for a people. When he came to Greater Roshan, he invested on Ashyn and became god to the humans there and fell in love with them. But Odium's touch is passion in excess and passionate use and abuse of investiture led to the great catastrophy that devastated Ashyn. Odium still loved his people though so he went to Roshan and asked Honor and Cultivation for a place for his people. But Honor claimed that the humans were unsafe with investiture so he demanded that Odium make a pact with Honor that he would make sure the humans would not get their hands on investiture, leave Shinovar or something similar. So the humans moved to Shinovar, isolated from the rest of Roshan and from the highstorms by the mountains, Odium's command and maybe a pact. Honor on the other hand did not love his people, the singers and saw in the pact with Odium a chance to do what he was good at, binding him, into a prison. Maybe he was afraid, as Honor and Cultivation were in a similar position as Devotion and Dominion. So when discontent increased in the upper class of the humans about the lack of power from investiture and being isolated, Honor found 5 men and 5 women and lured them with promises of power and conquest to make the Oathpact, binding them to him and giving them access to investiture (SF I think claims the Oathpact was a reaction to the Fused but that does not make it fact). So Odium's beloved people betrayed him with the help of Honor, binding him to a prison consisting of the pact Odium made with Honor for the benefit of this people. Odium's Passion broke, splintering Love away from him, the remnant now dominated by Hatred. Betrayed to the humans by their gods Honor and Cultivation, the singers were desperate as the first desolation swept over them, so they and Odium were natural allies. This started the cycle of desolations. Well, most of this is not based in fact (and the exact wording of any pact as prize for Shinovar would matter a lot), the intention is just to show that perception matters and if you avoid seeing Odium as absolute evil and Honor as good, interesting interpretations open up.