Space travel

[Fatikis]

4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@Fatikis So you agree? Your first sentience says that there are only going to be 16 base metals in allomancy. Your second sentience says there are more alloys, but due to the first sentence implies they are not allomantic, as in they might be Feruchemical or Hemalurgic or primer cube. Your third sentince reinforces this, as Harmonium can't be ingested and so can't be safely burnt, implying that the interpretation on the first sentince - no more allomantic metals - is correct.

All of my statements hold and are basically facts. You don't seem to understand the nature of the metals or god metals. There are a base 16 metals in the metalic arts. If you have enough connection to a shard you can burn their god metal. God metals can be alloyed with the base 16 metals.

There will not be any additional standard allomantic metals. God metals can be alloyed. These can be used for allomancy if mistings of it exists or full Mistborn.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Fatikis

[Ixthos]

I think you are misunderstanding me @Fatikis. I am saying space travel will require those alloys with shard metals. That is my point, that those metals give properties which normal allomancy doesn't, and so will provide abilities that are related to the base metals but different. The 16 base metals are not enough to travel in space.

[Fatikis]

Just now, Ixthos said:

The 16 base metals are not enough to travel in space.

Given normal science works in the Cosmere it alone is enough to get you into space. Allomancy and feruchemy just make it even easier. It is a fact that the 16 base metals are enough to get you into space. 

[Ixthos]

7 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Given normal science works in the Cosmere it alone is enough to get you into space. Allomancy and feruchemy just make it even easier. It is a fact that the 16 base metals are enough to get you into space. 

It isn't enough for Space Opera - there is no FTL in the basic metals. Without the ability to travel in ships between the planets as though they were simply cities on other continents the space travel will not be enough with the base 16.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Fatikis said:

Harmonium as a god metal can be alloyed. I find it hard to believe we won't see some of them. Many Cesium alloys are nonreactive.

Like I said, the WoBs where he talks about how many metals there are makes it sound like he's not intending to build Era 4 technology around godmetal alloys and that he's not planning much in the way of harmonium alloys. My guess is that if harmonium can be alloyed, it would probably work similarly to what we see in Bands of Mourning, just without requiring someone to 'prime' it with the appropriate power first. So a harmonium/bendalloy alloy would create a time bubble (with either the ratio of godmetal to normal metal or some mechanical regulator determining the size and compression rate), harmonium/steel would push with some mechanical method of directing its output, etc.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

It isn't enough for Space Opera - there is no FTL in the basic metals. Without the ability to travel in ships between the planets as though they were simply cities on other continents the space travel will not be enough with the base 16.

Brandon has pretty much stated that the base sixteen are enough, we just don't currently know enough about all their interactions and how their use can be expanded mechanically to understand how it will work. Let me repeat the WoB I provided earlier:

Quote

Questioner

For the space Mistborn are we going to have more elements?

Brandon Sanderson

The base 16 are basically it. But the interactions between them and things. And there is one more metal, there is harmonium, so you will hear about that later on.

source

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Weltall

[Fatikis]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

Brandon has pretty much stated that the base sixteen are enough, we just don't currently know enough about all their interactions and how their use can be expanded mechanically to understand how it will work. Let me repeat the WoB I provided earlier:

Your WoB does not support you. The base 16 and interactions between them and harmonium. Sounds a lot like harmonium alloys. 

[Weltall]

You did read the other WoB I provided, right? The one where he said that fifty metals is about as many as there are? You get fifty one if you count all possible combinations before we knew of harmonium and he specifically called the latter out as one more metal. If there were harmonium alloys as a major factor, fifty wouldn't be 'nearly' correct, it would be closer to seventy metals total.

And I took 'basically no new elements' to include godmetal alloys, since Brandon clearly interpreted the question as 'new metals', which would include new alloys.

[Ixthos]

@Weltall I think it is important to realise the full implications of that quote, and why I think it is either mistranscribed or a misinterpretation of what Brandon either said or meant.

I will repeat it here:

Quote

Questioner

For the space Mistborn are we going to have more elements?

Brandon Sanderson

The base 16 are basically it. But the interactions between them and things. And there is one more metal, there is harmonium, so you will hear about that later on.

source

 

To full unpackage it, the quote says:

• The space opera mistborn series will not introduce or feature new metals - the use of italics indicates it is the series, not just space travel
• The eight basic metals and the eight basic alloys, and Harmonium - but not Harmonium alloys - will be involved, and their interactions, but no other metals.

This means that, if this is correct, there will only be sixteen metals involved. No alloys of Harmonium, no Atium or Lerasium or their alloys, as Saze's metal is not an alloy of them (source), and none of the other metals which could be made will feature, though other alloys exist (source). It isn't just that the space opera will not require them to achieve FTL, it means that only sixteen metals, the ones they already know about, and Harmonium, will show up in the final trilogy, and no new metals or alloys. The spike Bleeder used will not feature, nor will any mistings be produced by burning Lerasium alloys, nor will the metals that shardblades are made from appear and be used in allomancy, feruchemy, or hemalurgy.

I think this doesn't match what we have been implicitly promised by the Wax and Wayne novels, which showed that there are more possible metals, nor does it match what Brandon implied when he said that more metals are possible with different alloys and that he intends to show them as reveals in later stories (source and source).

The last point is this:

Quote

Questioner

Will we see more of the god metal alloys in the future?

Brandon Sanderson

You will.

source

 

[Gasper]

I think this thread is getting a little of topic from what I was planning. There are already threads devoted to the discussion of the metallic mechanics and god metal alloys. My original plan was to have more of a ship/travel design thread. If you want to reference an metal or ability, please attach a potential function on a ship. The current and most widely discussed function I have seen is a cadmium bubble for time distortion, I would like to hear  what the non-temporal metals could do. 

[Ashspren]

Does anyone remember the Ones Above in their spaceships from Sixth of the Dusk? Sanderson confirmed (I don’t know where) that Sixth of the Dusk is, so far, the  Cosmere story/book/novel that takes place the latest on the timeline. I think the Ones Above are actually Era 4 Scadrians. Thoughts?

[Fatikis]

32 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

Does anyone remember the Ones Above in their spaceships from Sixth of the Dusk? Sanderson confirmed (I don’t know where) that Sixth of the Dusk is, so far, the  Cosmere story/book/novel that takes place the latest on the timeline. I think the Ones Above are actually Era 4 Scadrians. Thoughts?

This is what I've always assumed. It seems like their machine uses bronze to seek Aviar. This is just an interesting example of possible future technology from Scadrial.

[Ixthos]

@Gasper I think we can break down ship design into four categories, each with subcatagories, being

1. with basic metals for the ship (i.e. using primer cube technology to make the ship use either allomancy or feruchemy)
   1. required for the ship to function as a ship (flight, steering)
   2. required for the ship to perform auxiliary functions (computers, etc
2. with basic metals for the crew (i.e. what astronauts would use)
   1. required to use the ship or let it function
   2. required to perform functions which are not critical to travel, but to performing functions in space
3. with hypothetical shard metals and alloys for the ship (with the same subcategories as above, includes Atium, etc.)
4. with hypothetical shard metals and alloys for the crew (with the same subcategories as above, include Atium, etc.)

Also note that some functions can be handled by technologies currently available to use, but which might be more efficient using allomancy and feruchemy. All subcategories are included in the main categories

Exploring each of these as follows, and making some impromptu guesses:

 

Basic metals for the ship (as a ship and auxiliary functions) - used by the ship, not the crew

Spoiler

Physical (Allomancy) / Physical (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Iron

• Pushing off of the ground in order to fly / detecting metal targets / tractor beam to pull other ships or nearby material / compounding stored weight (Allomancy)
• Storing the weight of the ship itself, allowing it to fly / tapping weight to make it more durable during flight or to resist being tractored (Feruchemy)

Steel

• Pulling towards distant targets - assumes that with enough allomantic power planets and moons will appear as lines / detecting metal targets / pushing targets away / compounding stored speed (Allomancy)
• Tapping to increase travel speed though still at normal speed (Feruchemy)

Tin

• Used with a computer to scan the environment / compounding stored sensors (Allomancy)
• Tapping to scan environment (Feruchemy)

Pewter

• Increasing durability of the ship / compounding stored mechanical capacity / increasing efficiency of mechanics (Allomancy)
• Tapping mechanical capacity (Feruchemy)

 

Mental (Allomancy) / Cognitive (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Zinc

• Controlling ships systems (Allomancy)
• Boosting computer speed (Feruchemy)

Brass

• Controlling ships systems (Allomancy)
• Cooling ship (Feruchemy)

Copper

• Stealth from enemy scanners / reducing noise of engines running / compounding stored data (Allomancy)
• Storing and retrieving data from computer (Feruchemy)

Bronze

• Scanning for other ships investiture / compounding stored computer systems (Allomancy)
• Running the computers (Feruchemy)

 

Temporal (Allomancy) / Hybrid (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Cadmium

• Slowing time for ship and crew if not using FTL (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Bendalloy

• Speeding up time if part of FTL / compounding stored fuel (Allomancy)
• Storing and tapping fuel (Feruchemy)

Gold

• Compounding stored integrity (Allomancy)
• Automatic self repair (Feruchemy)

Electrum

• Short range collision detection / compounding stored directives (Allomancy)
• Focusing computer (Feruchemy)

 

Enhancement (Allomancy) / Spiritual (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Chromium

• Shutting down enemy ships / compounding stored fortune (Allomancy)
• Tapping for increasing safety (Feruchemy)

Nicrosil

• Powering ship systems / compounding ship fuel (Allomancy)
• Storing fuel (Feruchemy)

Aluminium

• Purging contaminants / compounding stored integrity (Allomancy)
• Tapping for maintaining integrity (Feruchemy)
• Also protects against attacks with other abilities

Duralumin

• Boosting ship systems / compounding connection (Allomancy)
• Storing to leave planet / Tapping to establishing communications (Feruchemy)

 

 

Basic metals for crew (for flight and auxiliary crew roles / support) - can be part of ship but used by the crew, or worn by them

Spoiler

Physical (Allomancy) / Physical (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Iron

• Remotely controlling ship panels (Allomancy)
• Storing to decrease weight on ship (Feruchemy)

Steel

• Remotely controlling ship panels (Allomancy)
• Increasing reaction time while piloting ships(Feruchemy)

Tin

• General alertness (Allomancy)
• General alertness (Feruchemy)

Pewter

• General performance / surviving emergencies (Allomancy)
• General performance (Feruchemy)

 

Mental (Allomancy) / Cognitive (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Zinc

• Remotely communicating with ship (Allomancy)
• Increasing reaction times while piloting ship (Feruchemy)

Brass

• Remotely communicating with ship (Allomancy)
• Staying warm in ship or if performing space walks in a space suit (Feruchemy)

Copper

• None (Allomancy)
• Accessing ship information / making logs (Feruchemy)

Bronze

• Sensing if systems are running (Allomancy)
• Crew alterness (Feruchemy)

 

Temporal (Allomancy) / Hybrid (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Cadmium

• None (Allomancy)
• Emergency air (Feruchemy)

Bendalloy

• None (Allomancy)
• Emergency food and water / storing waste (Feruchemy)

Gold

• None (Allomancy)
• Emergency health (Feruchemy)

Electrum

• None (Allomancy)
• Keeping focus (Feruchemy)

 

Enhancement (Allomancy) / Spiritual (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Chromium

• Protecting against boarding parties / shutting down damaged machines (Allomancy)
• Navigating damaged areas (Feruchemy)

Nicrosil

• Boosting and starting ship systems / controlling ship systems (Allomancy)
• Gaining needed powers (Feruchemy)

Aluminium

• Purging corruption from enemy attacks (Allomancy)
• Protecting against attacks on identity (Feruchemy)
• Also protection against enemies attacking

Duralumin

• Boosting current powers for controlling or protecting or maintaining ship (Allomancy)
• Communications / leaving the planet (Feruchemy)

 

 

Shard metals for ship as a ship and auxiliary functions (hypothetical)

Spoiler

Physical (Allomancy) / Physical (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Iron alloys

• Rotating or moving sideways relative to anchor (Allomancy)
• Decreasing how real the ship is to allow FTL (Feruchemy)

Tin alloys

• Sensing stealth or hidden items (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

 

Mental (Allomancy) / Cognitive (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Zinc alloys

• Sensing minds or general life (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Copper alloys

• Sensing other types of investiture (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

 

Temporal (Allomancy) / Hybrid (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Cadmium alloys

• Contract distances to achieve fast travel (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Gold alloys

• Similar to Atium below (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

 

Enhancement (Allomancy) / Spiritual (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Chromium alloys

• Target type of investiture removed (Allomancy)
• Store other types of investiture (Feruchemy)

Aluminium alloys

• Target investiture to remove from self (Allomancy)
• Selectively target and affect connections (Feruchemy)

 

Shard metals

Spoiler

Possible abilities

Atium (Ruin)

• Navigation like in Dune (Allomancy)
• Protecting the ship from ageing (Feruchemy)

Lerasium (Perservation)

• Alloys allow access to properties of other metals (Allomancy)
• Alloys allow for storing powers of other shardworlds (Feruchemy)

Harmonium (Harmony)

• None (Allomancy)
• Powering mechanical allomancy or feruchemy (Feruchemy)

 

Hypothetical metals:

Tanavastium (Honour)

• Producing a shield (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

"Slammerium" (Cultivation)

• Growing food (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Rayseium (Odium)

• None (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Edglium (Endowment)

• Alloy with Bavadinium to produce computers (Allomancy)
• Store computer (Feruchemy)

Bavadinium (Autonomy)

• Alloy with Edglium to produce computers (Allomancy)
• Store computer (Feruchemy)

Aonaium (Devotion)

• None (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Skaium (Dominion)

• None (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Ulidaium (Ambition)

• Navigation like with Atium (Allomancy)
• Related to storing Chromium (Feruchemy)

 

Shard metals for crew for flight and Auxiliary crew roles / support (hypothetical) - mostly incomplete

Spoiler

Physical (Allomancy) / Physical (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Iron alloys

• See ship (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Tin alloys

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

 

Mental (Allomancy) / Cognitive (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Zinc

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Copper

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

 

Temporal (Allomancy) / Hybrid (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Cadmium

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Gold

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

 

Enhancement (Allomancy) / Spiritual (Feruchemy)

Spoiler

Chromium

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Aluminium

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

 

Shard metals

Spoiler

Possible abilities

Atium (Ruin)

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Lerasium (Perservation)

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Harmonium (Harmony)

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

 

Hypothetical metals:

Tanavastium (Honour)

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

"Slammerium" (Cultivation)

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Rayseium (Odium)

• None (Allomancy)
• [Would count as an OB spoiler but related to a claimed name for Odium and the void]

Edglium (Endowment)

• None (Allomancy)
• Interfacing with the computer (Feruchemy)

Bavadinium (Autonomy)

• None (Allomancy)
• Interfacing with the computer (Feruchemy)

Aonaium (Devotion)

• (Allomancy)
• (Feruchemy)

Skaium(Dominion)

• None (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Ulidaium (Ambition)

• None (Allomancy)
• None (Feruchemy)

Some of this is guesswork, and I might change my opinion on some of these, but I hope this helps

[ZenBossanova]

Let me suggest two things that should be possible using only the known base metals. 

(1) If mass, and energy and investiture are all interchangeable (according to a WoB), then does empty space have a zero-point level of Investiture, like it does for energy. Could the appropriate misting be able to drain that, like how the Casimir effect reduces local vacuum energy? If so, that should generate negative space-time curvature. If that is possible, then you could make a Alcubierre drive. This is a Real World theoretical warp drive. Google it!

Likewise, can we create negative mass via feruchemy? I suspect that even if we can, that we would need too much mass to be practical. 

(2) Time-modulation bubbles. If a bubble of accelerated time partly overlaps a bubble of slow time, then we should get space time bending in such a way to create the conditions for a Alcubierre drive. 

[ScarletSabre]

On 28/04/2018 at 6:03 PM, Fatikis said:

The space opera will probably use more advanced machinery, but we will probably see this kind of basic spaceflight in the 1980s Mistborn.

I actually wonder about that, since there's no moon on Scadrial, so unless they want to get things orbiting the planet, there's no satellites for them to travel to, and I don't recall any other planets in the Scadrial system...

We'll probably see them being used simply as technological advances and perhaps orbital re-entry used for travel from one continent to another, would be my guess.

[Fatikis]

1 minute ago, ScarletSabre said:

I actually wonder about that, since there's no moon on Scadrial, so unless they want to get things orbiting the planet, there's no satellites for them to travel to, and I don't recall any other planets in the Scadrial system...

We'll probably see them being used simply as technological advances and perhaps orbital re-entry used for travel from one continent to another, would be my guess.

There are two gas giants and two dwarf planets. By 1960s we had satellites. It is interesting though. With no moon they don't have an easy benchmark. That being said with eventual space travel, I can't imagine they won't be experimenting with it in Era3.

[Xtafa]

 Harmonium is explosive when interacting with water. Maybe they can use it as space fuel

[ItsAllAboutDragons]

I hope God Emperor Brandon (may he live forever) has the Scadrians develop spaceflight through semi-real physics. Like, liquid oxygen boosters to break the atmosphere then one big speed bubble around the ship to bugger relativity (they keep using conventional rockets to achieve near-light within the bubble related to FTL outside).

In my Imagination Land, the first spaceflight will be a horrible failure because the distance of the steel push to the planet is too far or too hard for any allomancer to maintain. In their pride, the most prominent allomantically gifted try in spite of the obvious lack of anchor points. They drift helplessly in the moonless sky, their slow deaths witnessed at a distance by millions. Many lives lost, many theoretical allomanticians pilloried. Children are taught of this as a fundamental example of hubris, with the dwindling allomancer population being an easy target for ridicule. Their fall from grace leads to the rise of the non-allomantic sciences. There's pointless fighting over it and it's very tragic. Years later, some enlightened dude or dudette has the crazy idea to Harmonize the old and new disciplines, saving a sick Sazed with a power boost and ushering in a new age of wonder. That, or they let their god die (because Trell is less of a nerd or something) and harvest his corpse for oodles of raw medallion materials after killing off the remaining natural allomancers. The Scadrians then arrive on Roshar and are instantly killed by the crazy bug people who are totally gonna win the war