Space travel

[Gasper]

As most of us know, Mistborn era 4 will be a space opera. That leads me to believe that there will be some sort of non-cognitive realm travel involved. I what to know what you think the space travel will look like. Given what we saw in BoM, I think that launching ships using steel pushes is a viable option. But, I want to hear your thoughts. 

 

Also, art/drawings/links to art/designs are welcome on this thread.

[Fatikis]

2 minutes ago, Gasper said:

As most of us know, Mistborn era 4 will be a space opera. That leads me to believe that there will be some sort of non-cognitive realm travel involved. I what to know what you think the space travel will look like. Given what we saw in BoM, I think that launching ships using steel pushes is a viable option. But, I want to hear your thoughts. 

 

Also, art/drawings/links to art/designs are welcome on this thread.

The new metals seem to hint at how this can be accomplished fairly easily. Use Harmonium and Steelpushing for flight. Burn Cadmium to slow the time for those inside the ship without altering the speed of the ship itself essentially putting yourself in stasis. Tap Cadmium for breath storage. Tap Bendalloy for calories when needed. Tap Brass for warmth.

The ship actually doesn't need to be that advanced for this to work. All you would need is an airtight ship that can withstand entering and exiting the atmosphere. You'll then need a lot of stored Feruchemical attributes.

The space opera will probably use more advanced machinery, but we will probably see this kind of basic spaceflight in the 1980s Mistborn.

[Gasper]

Basically a metal tube with a bunch of medallions in it? You could even get around space suits with a combined Gold/Cadmium/Brass metal mind.

[Weltall]

It definitely will involve more advanced technology, at least by Era 4, Brandon has said that we're getting 'actual FTL' which would preclude the idea of A-Cadmium 'sleeper ships' being the approach we'll be getting. But that sort of thing could work in the time leading up to whenever Scadrial cracks FTL travel, maybe even become a plot point if some 'present day' Scadrians encounter an old-style ship taking the cadmium approach.

He's also mentioned that FTL is built into several systems, not just the Metallic Arts. It's not too hard to imagine ways that Surgebinding could work (you can manipulate gravity and you've got teleportation powers) and while Sand Mastery doesn't have any obvious FTL applications, we do know that Autonomy's Investiture could be used to power a solar sail. And while Selish magic currently has a spacial iimitation, AonDor has teleportation and probably other applications that could be applied to FTL if they could ever solve for the distance problem.

[Fatikis]

33 minutes ago, Weltall said:

It definitely will involve more advanced technology, at least by Era 4, Brandon has said that we're getting 'actual FTL' which would preclude the idea of A-Cadmium 'sleeper ships' being the approach we'll be getting. But that sort of thing could work in the time leading up to whenever Scadrial cracks FTL travel, maybe even become a plot point if some 'present day' Scadrians encounter an old-style ship taking the cadmium approach.

For sure we are going to see Feru/Allo tech in Era4 I'm super excited for that. I'm thinking more on the lines of the 1980 tech level. 

I do wonder how the Scadrian FTL will work. If they could find a way to move a speed bubble you could use this. Maybe Bendalloy access through a metalmind. Possibly multiple multiple bendalloy bubbles would work. Move through one bubble while still attached to the next. You are going to burn through bendalloy fast this way. 

[Gasper]

I am assuming that Scadrial has a metallic planetary core. Using that and a nicrosil metal mind, I think it would be possible to lift a ship off the ground using steel pushes off the metallic core. I think this is possible because we see that mass, distance and investment are not really an issue if the metalborn is powerful enough or has a boost of investure.

[Apollyon]

I just want to see Sel being turned into the Death Star so they can get around the distance problem...

[Weltall]

As amusing a thought as that is, it wouldn't really solve the distance problem, it would just relocate where it's happening relative to everything else in the Physical Realm. An Elantrian would still experience a massive power loss within a few hundred miles of Elantris whether Sel is where it should be or if it's moved to, say, the Scadrian System. Same for the other systems, even if the loss isn't as dramatic or the distance restrictions somewhat less severe. For example, the distance between MaiPon and Elantris is enough that Forgery doesn't work in the latter region. The distance between a planet and just its moon(s) is astronomically greater than the distances at which we know magics stop working because of distance from their 'home' region.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Weltall

[Fatikis]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

As amusing a thought as that is, it wouldn't really solve the distance problem, it would just relocate where it's happening relative to everything else in the Physical Realm. An Elantrian would still experience a massive power loss within a few hundred miles of Elantris whether Sel is where it should be or if it's moved to, say, the Scadrian System. Same for the other systems, even if the loss isn't as dramatic or the distance restrictions somewhat less severe. For example, the distance between MaiPon and Elantris is enough that Forgery doesn't work in the latter region. The distance between a planet and just its moon(s) is astronomically greater than the distances at which we know magics stop working because of distance from their 'home' region.

The Dakhor monks seem to be expanding their area of magic reach by conquering allowing them to use magic at a further distances. Even before they battle they declare a territory as theirs which seems to allow them to access their power.

It is possible that Elantrians could increase their domain either through conquest or perception which may allow them to extend the reach of their power. Distance would still likely cause issues. It might weaken the dor by stretching it over such a vast area. The Ire seem to be able to tap into Selish magic from Scadrial. We don't see them us the dor, but they have what appears to be power lines of investiture powering their cognitive stronghold.

That being said it seems a waste of investiture to move your planet all around. There are probably better ways.

 

[Gasper]

I am thinking that there needs to be some sort of way to store investure from the Dor and move it around with you. Also, it is mentioned that the moon scepter can be used to translate symbols. Maybe that is a way to allow Elantrians to travel to different worlds (or countries for that matter).

[TheHeadHancho]

It could be possible to go to the cognitive realm and store some of the Dor in an aluminum container, but it would be dangerous at best. There is not enough known about the Dor itself to be able to think about it more accurately.

[Calderis]

Medallions, and even the Bands, are just scratching the surface of the technology. In light of this recent WoB, I'm not convinced that space travel is going to rely on anything as simple as the airships, but I'm sure time bubbles will be involved somehow. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In reading about Adonalsium and Odium, I get the sense that it's more related to lerasium and atium than it is to, like, Preservation or Ruin. Because, sometimes it seems like we're identifying Odium and Adonalsium as beings instead of, like, the body of...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it is a little confusing by design. The question is, like, telling the difference between the Vessel who is holding the power, the intent of that power, and the physical manifestations of that power as Investiture or as whatever, these things are confusing. And I did this on purpose. I like that blurring between them. One of the things I did when I was designing the magic for the cosmere, was... you guys know this very easily from looking at the books, I love the ideas of quantum theory, string theory, all this stuff. And even, just looking at quantum mechanics as we understand them right now. And the further you get into the details, the more the rules that you built, everything you understand upon, become blurry. And we live in this world where certain scientific principles, like... I was sitting at a writing group, talking to my friend who's a mathematician, and I'm like, "I really like math 'cause it is objective. One plus one equals two." And he's like, "Well, the further you get in math, the less that actually is true, and the more 'One plus one equals two' is a philosophical statement, not an actual objective truth." And we talked about the nature of, the further you dig into things...

So, I tried to build the cosmere magic... for instance, how the Bands of Mourning work. We are getting away from Step 1, which is, "Metals push or pull." We can get that. Into Step 2, where we are building complex machines out of the interactions between the magic. And we will then get to Step 3, where it's like, we can explain the principles, but you need to be a computer engineer to understand exactly how the computer is working. And I wanted to be able to build to get to that point. With the philosophy of, "What is the power, what is the individual, what is the intent," and things like that, we're kind of going that direction, in a philosophical direction. What does it mean? What are the answers?

Humans like things to be divided and put in boxes, but in nature, these boxes are usually arbitrary, of our distinction. So, I like that aspect of our interaction with the real world. So, the answer to your question is, this is not a question for me, this is a question for philosophers. Where does the intent stop, and the being begin? And what does it mean to have a body? Is the body of the original person that has taken up the Shard, the Vessel, when that drops out when they die, is that their real body? Or is that just the power pushing out something that it absorbed and recreating it, and dropping a copy of it? What is that? What's going on there? What's it mean? How much can a Vessel influence their intent? This is all a question for philosophers, that I'm going to explore in the books, but it's not the sort of thing that you're like...

Does one plus one equal two? The answer is, one plus one equals two according to this proof that we believe explains the universe, but is a little fuzzier than you think it is.

source

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Calderis

[Fatikis]

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Medallions, and even the Bands, are just scratching the surface of the technology. In light of this recent WoB, I'm not convinced that space travel is going to rely on anything as simple as the airships, but I'm sure time bubbles will be involved somehow. 

 

I think early space travel will use basic but more advanced medallion technology. I'm talking about early solar system exploration technology. Something we will see in the 1980s Mistborn. By the time we get to interstellar travel and Spaceborn we will get into the really complex machinery.

[Ixthos]

Just now, Fatikis said:

I think early space travel will use basic but more advanced medallion technology. I'm talking about early solar system exploration technology. Something we will see in the 1980s Mistborn. By the time we get to interstellar travel and Spaceborn we will get into the really complex machinery.

On that note, I think it might also be that medallion technology using other metals - assuming the medallions don't already use other metals - which could produce different effects should be considered. There is one known alloy with a shard metal, and its results are a variant on the base metal. Has the possibility of alloys which produce affects similar to the base metal been considered, such as an alloy of Cadmium, which doesn't stretch time but rather distance, been considered? I think that not enough has been revealed of the possible metals, and so not enough is known, so using the current set of metals won't answer all issues, but variant metals might be the idea.

[Weltall]

We don't know the feruchemical applications of any atium or lerasium alloys and we only know the allomantic application of one atium alloy so yes, there's a lot of potential there. Brandon has said that he hasn't canonized most of them even in his notes though, which suggests that most of them aren't currently planned to have a major role in the series. There's also a pretty severe limiting factor on lerasium alloys and Brandon has implied that even in Era 4, what we'll be seeing is mainly the interactions of the base metals rather than a lot of new ones. So it's probably going to be more like the WoB that @Calderis posted and less 'here's a new alloy that solves for this problem'.

[Calderis]

@Ixthos attempting to use godmetal alloys for technological use means needing to have enough of them for mass production.

I don't think this is ever going to be the case. The abundance of Atium in Era 1 was an intentional measure created to weaken Ruin, and in normal circumstances I doubt we'll ever see enough of a godmetal to be used in such a fashion. 

[Fatikis]

4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

On that note, I think it might also be that medallion technology using other metals - assuming the medallions don't already use other metals - which could produce different effects should be considered. There is one known alloy with a shard metal, and its results are a variant on the base metal. Has the possibility of alloys which produce affects similar to the base metal been considered, such as an alloy of Cadmium, which doesn't stretch time but rather distance, been considered? I think that not enough has been revealed of the possible metals, and so not enough is known, so using the current set of metals won't answer all issues, but variant metals might be the idea.

There are only going to be the 16 base metals of allomancy. However you can create alloys with God metals which we have not seen yet. So there are a lot of Harmonium alloys we could see.

[Calderis]

And then I remember the way Harmonium is currently being used... And WTH Sazed 

[Weltall]

2 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

So there are a lot of Harmonium alloys we could see.

There are, but I don't think Brandon has a lot of plans for them. He was asked how many allomantic metals there are and said that fifty is 'nearly correct'. If you count up the known metal possibilities before harmonium was introduced, you get fifty one. Brandon mentioned harmonium specifically as an additional metal. It's hard to imagine fifty being almost correct if Brandon was thinking about opening up Pandora's Box with harmonium alloys as well.

And of course, this is assuming you can alloy harmonium. And find ways to use it without blowing yourself up.

[Fatikis]

13 minutes ago, Weltall said:

There are, but I don't think Brandon has a lot of plans for them. He was asked how many allomantic metals there are and said that fifty is 'nearly correct'. If you count up the known metal possibilities before harmonium was introduced, you get fifty one. Brandon mentioned harmonium specifically as an additional metal. It's hard to imagine fifty being almost correct if Brandon was thinking about opening up Pandora's Box with harmonium alloys as well.

And of course, this is assuming you can alloy harmonium. And find ways to use it without blowing yourself up.

Harmonium as a god metal can be alloyed. I find it hard to believe we won't see some of them. Many Cesium alloys are nonreactive.

[Ixthos]

@Calderis I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility for Sazed to make it possible to gain more of all three metals, and Rashik apparently went somewhere to gain the Lerasium, so it might well be possibly to find a location where the metals naturally form - perhaps he gained the metal from the well itself. And if it can be gained from perpendicularities, other metals can be gained by travelling to the right world. If they come from some other source, then another method might work. It also assumes that you need a lot, but perhaps only a small amount of metal is needed to alloy, or perhaps you only need some at a single location, and that location can allow space travel without the ships needing the metal onboard

 

@Fatikis There are several alloys, after all Atium is allomantic, and Atium and gold are a confirmed allomantic alloy, and they are not of the original sixteen, nor is Lerasium one of the sixteen.

[Fatikis]

2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@Fatikis There are several alloys, after all Atium is allomantic, and Atium and gold are a confirmed allomantic alloy, and they are not of the original sixteen, nor is Lerasium one of the sixteen.

The god metals are not normal allomantic metals. They are raw investiture that can be used for allomancy and feruchemy. There will not be any more base metals. There are 16. There could be god metal alloys. As I already stated previously.

[Ixthos]

Just now, Fatikis said:

The god metals are not normal allomantic metals. They are raw investiture that can be used for allomancy and feruchemy. There will not be any more base metals. There are 16. There could be god metal alloys. As I already stated previously.

You stated there were no more allomantic metals other than the base 16 (technically 8 basic and 8 normal alloys). I was reitterating that there are more than 16 allomantic metals.

Let us clear up further misunderstandings - do you agree that there are more than 16 metals that can be burnt, and those those will produce allomantic effects?

[Fatikis]

Just now, Ixthos said:

You stated there were no more allomantic metals other than the base 16 (technically 8 basic and 8 normal alloys). I was reitterating that there are more than 16 allomantic metals.

Let us clear up further misunderstandings - do you agree that there are more than 16 metals that can be burnt, and those those will produce allomantic effects?

 

41 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

There are only going to be the 16 base metals of allomancy. However you can create alloys with God metals which we have not seen yet. So there are a lot of Harmonium alloys we could see.

 

[Ixthos]

@Fatikis So you agree? Your first sentience says that there are only going to be 16 base metals in allomancy. Your second sentience says there are more alloys, but due to the first sentence implies they are not allomantic, as in they might be Feruchemical or Hemalurgic or primer cube. Your third sentince reinforces this, as Harmonium can't be ingested and so can't be safely burnt, implying that the interpretation on the first sentince - no more allomantic metals - is correct.