[OB] The Crownlands: A Misnomer?

[Willow]

During my first read of Oathbringer, I became curious to see what princedom Rathalas belonged to. Tanalan (sr. and jr.) are never described as highprinces (just highlords), yet they are still the leaders of a major city/region in Alethkar. A quick look at the map told me that Rathalas is in the Crownlands, which is the weird 11th region in Alethkar we don't seem to know that much about.
I always assumed that, as the name tells us, these lands belong to the crown, aka Elhokar.

However, when rereading the Way of Kings afterwards, I started to doubt this.
Near the beginning Adolin clearly says that Elhokar doesn't have any land that really belongs to him (WoK, chapter 12). And because of this, he 'takes great interest in the day-to-day management' of the Kholin lands, which causes the other highprinces to think less of Dalinar. This micro-management situation is presented as an interference (at least by Adolin), and something that wouldn't be happening if Elhokar only had other lands to manage for himself. Furthermore, I believe it is said as well that most of Elhokar's income as a king comes from taxation of the use of his Soulcasters. If he rules the Crownlands, he should get income from there as well. This chapter in WoK points to the Crownlands not belonging to Elhokar.

Yet, in Oathbringer (chapter 58), Kaladin receives lands from Elhokar, which are in the Crownlands (next to the Deathbend river). The lighteyes who ruled this land died, and the possession reverted back to the crown (Elhokar), and it was his duty to appoint someone to lead these lands.

So, my first theory was that the lands in the Crownlands were like miniature princedoms, ruling their own bit of land, and the fact that one line of rulers died out was a rare occurence. One argument for this is that the people of Rathalas 'always had considered themselves a people apart' (chapter 11, Oathbringer).
But this seems weird. It's more logical to assume it is ruled in the same way as the rest of Alethkar, especially after the unification. So it would be ruled by a high ranked lighteyes (Sadeas, Vamah, other highprinces), who appoints lower ranked lighteyes to watch over the lands (Amaram, Paladar), who manage even lower ranked lighteyes (Wistiow, Roshone). Kaladin was appointed as a middle-ranked lighteyes who had the task of choosing citylords for the villages in the area.

With this information, the fact that Elhokar 'doesn't have any land that was specifically his own' seems odd. If Gavilar combined the Crownlands with the Kholin lands (and the map doesn't suggest that), Kaladin's new land should have reverted back to Dalinar, as the Kholin highprince. They don't, which points to the fact that Elhokar does have lands to call his own.

So my main question is where this inconsistency could come from, and if there is any information I've missed about this area in Alethkar that could clear this up.

[hypatia she/her]

The crownland - problem is a pet peeve of me - but I don't have an answer.

The thing is - after Sunmaker Alethkar was divided into the princedoms for his 10 sons and didn't have a king.

The next king as we know about would be Gavilar - what happened with this part of Alethkar without a "crown"? Was it empty?

Or was there another son everyone had forgotten about? An eleventh princedom?

Over all I'm nearly desperate to get more informations.

[Yezrien]

That'll be a short story in the next Arcanum Unbounded: "The Eleventh Princedom."

There was once an eleventh princedom in Alethkar, but eleven is unholy asymmetrical number, so one of them had to be destroyed. But the remaining ten princes couldn't agree on who would claim the land, so they just let all the local highlords become semi-independent.

Do we know that the area was called "Crownlands" before Gavilar's conquest?

[hypatia she/her]

If so I can't remember.

Another idea - is it possible this has something to do with the Oldbloods?

This region at the times of the Silver Kingdoms wasn't mostly a part of Alethela but of Natanatan.

For me this "crownlands" with a river named "Deathbend" really begs for questions.

By the way - I like to see this imaginary eleventh son as a black sheep - the one who didn't like fighting or competing but singing and dancing and generally getting everyone on the nerves up until they saw this region as jinxed.

[AC12 he/him]

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

By the way - I like to see this imaginary eleventh son as a black sheep - the one who didn't like fighting or competing but singing and dancing and generally getting everyone on the nerves up until they saw this region as jinxed.

"But father I don't want any of that. I'd rather....I'd rather....just....sing."

"You're not going to do a song while I'm here!"

[Naurock]

1 hour ago, AC12 said:

"But father I don't want any of that. I'd rather....I'd rather....just....sing."

"You're not going to do a song while I'm here!"

I wish I could upvote this more than once.

[Willow]

13 hours ago, hypatia said:

The thing is - after Sunmaker Alethkar was divided into the princedoms for his 10 sons and didn't have a king.

The next king as we know about would be Gavilar - what happened with this part of Alethkar without a "crown"? Was it empty?

I had to delete like three sentences asking the same question in my first post, because it wasn't really relevant to the rest of my theory, but yeah, I'm very curious about that as well. 'We shall divide this land equally amongst the 10 of us. Except for that lower quarter over there. That will stay empty. We don't like it.'

I'm sure there's a reason for it, but I'd really like to know what that reason is.

12 hours ago, Belzedar said:

Do we know that the area was called "Crownlands" before Gavilar's conquest?

The only map of Alethkar we have that shows the princedoms was made during Gavilar's reign, so unfortunately, we don't know.
But there's something I found more interesting when I looked up the map. I called it the Crownlands, but the actual name on the map is the 'Eastern Crownlands'.

So.. where's the western Crownlands? The most obvious thing I can imagine is that the Crownlands were originally separated into Western and Eastern halves by the Sea of Spears, but the western half was then absorbed into the other princedoms (Thanadal and Sebarial, mostly). But then why did they leave the rest of the Eastern Crownlands alone?

Of course, the further east you go, the stronger the storms are. But we know from Oathbringer that it's a good bit of land. The river doesn't dry up, the land is nice, there's lots of caravans. The people there have a good life. It doesn't sound like it's too harsh to live in, like the Unclaimed Hills are. So the mystery only grows..

11 hours ago, hypatia said:

By the way - I like to see this imaginary eleventh son as a black sheep - the one who didn't like fighting or competing but singing and dancing and generally getting everyone on the nerves up until they saw this region as jinxed.

Ahh, It seems you have discovered Hoid's true origin story.

[hypatia she/her]

Back to the crownland -

To the story of the 10 sons of Sunmaker - I think it nearly unbelieveble, the king with exactly 10 sons. For me this sounds like a legend to legitimize the ruling highprinces. This is just too convenient.

Since when did this region belong to Alethkar? After Natanatan had broken?

Who named it crownland and whose crown is this talking about?

Did Rathalas belong to this region? Was Tanalan more than a Highlord, but just not called Highprince because there was no princedom? Was his family defending the crownland against the highprinces? With Oathbringer?

I like the possibility with the Oldblood - they once were the kings/crown.

But how so?

Did they descend from the old kings from Alethela? 

Is it possible this was an independant country? It is nicely sheltered - the Unclaimed Moutains to the East, the Frostlands to the South and even the Lake of Spears is a natural border.

Open borders are with Sebarial, perhaps Bethab to the West and Kholin, perhaps  Thanadal to the South.

This can'-t explain why Elhokar seems to have no access, but perhaps why this wasn't a part of the other princedoms.

Really - knowing the Alethi highprinces the logical explanation why they hadn't occupied this region is because whoever was in charge was able to fight them down - until the Kholin brothers.

Edited March 29, 2018 by hypatia

[AC12 he/him]

17 hours ago, Naurock said:

I wish I could upvote this more than once.

I'm glad someone else appreciates classic comedy

[cfphelps he/him]

So when Elhokar gives Kaladin land, it is after Elhokar has declared Dalinar high king of Urithiru above him, and Elhokar maintains that Dalinar has to give up his claim on Alethkar/Kholinar.  Could this change the land Elhokar has at his disposal from when Adolin had that thought in WoK?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, cfphelps said:

So when Elhokar gives Kaladin land, it is after Elhokar has declared Dalinar high king of Urithiru above him, and Elhokar maintains that Dalinar has to give up his claim on Alethkar/Kholinar.  Could this change the land Elhokar has at his disposal from when Adolin had that thought in WoK?

No. When Dalinar became Highking, Adolin became Highprince, and all Kholin lands would have passed to him. 

[cfphelps he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

No. When Dalinar became Highking, Adolin became Highprince, and all Kholin lands would have passed to him. 

Oops good point!

[Willow]

On 29-3-2018 at 0:29 PM, hypatia said:

To the story of the 10 sons of Sunmaker - I think it nearly unbelieveble, the king with exactly 10 sons. For me this sounds like a legend to legitimize the ruling highprinces. This is just too convenient.

I imagine it was probably a few sons, a few sons-in-law, a few cousins, etc. Jasnah actually mentions that this happens a lot in chapter 53:

Quote

'Even a pretender of no true lineage would usually claim kinship through oblique and creative genealogical justifications.'

However that still leaves the question of why the Eastern Crownlands remained separate (and where the  Western Crownlands are).

28 minutes ago, cfphelps said:

So when Elhokar gives Kaladin land, it is after Elhokar has declared Dalinar high king of Urithiru above him, and Elhokar maintains that Dalinar has to give up his claim on Alethkar/Kholinar.  Could this change the land Elhokar has at his disposal from when Adolin had that thought in WoK?

Calderis already mentioned that Adolin would have inherited the Kholin lands, but other than that, Dalinar doesn't actually say the land belonged to Elhokar or Adolin, or to any specific person (emphasis mine):

Quote

'Elhokar found you a nice portion along the river that reverted to the crown last year at the death of its brightlord, who had no heir.'

These lands are specifically stated as belonging to the crown. So the disrepancy of 'Elhokar is king, and thus has no lands, because Dalinar (and Adolin after him) rule the Kholin lands' in the Way of Kings and 'The crownlands are under the management of the king' in Oathbringer still exists.

[Angsos]

My guess is the western crownlands were absorbed by princedoms or something and the eastern crownlands never got renamed. Also it was probably easier to leave the crownlands alone as long as they provided a product.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

This is very wierd. Tanalan seems to be a very powerful figure in the region, so he was most likely a dominating force. As others have said, the most likely explanation is that there were eleven princedoms, but someone felt that was a pagan number, so the last one (maybe the least powerful) was named something else, and its overlord didn't get the same status as the other highprinces. 

On another note, could @Willow or someone else tell me who Paladar is. That is one of the coolest names I've heard in a long time.

[Jofwu he/him]

For whatever reason, I figured that it WAS a princedom before the Kholins conquered it. I imagined that with all the trouble provided by Rathalas, Gavilar disbanded it and took it for himself. To bring the number of princedoms back to 10, you'd simply need one of the other old princedoms to be split as Gavilar took over. For example, maybe Sebarial and Bethab each seized power from a single highprince, and divided the land between themselves.

There are may some problems with this, but I thought it mostly worked... Until @Willow pointed out Adolin's comment about how Elhokar doesn't own land.

Feels like a continuity error.

If not, I guess the best explanation is that the land is owned by local lords who simply don't have a highprince.

[Isilel]

On 28.3.2018 at 10:21 PM, Willow said:

With this information, the fact that Elhokar 'doesn't have any land that was specifically his own' seems odd.

There are a few inconsistencies/ret-cons between the text of WoK and what we learned in Oathbringer - I noticed this on my recent re-read of SA. For instance, in WoK it was mentioned that the incident where Dalinar almost killed his brother happened 10 years previously, while in OB it was actually about 29. Also, in WoK Jasnah was supposed to have identified Gavilar's last message as a quote from the in-world WoK and provided Dalinar with the book several months prior, while we now know that both of them were familiar with the it for years. Ditto Gavilar was supposed to have remained warlike and conquest-minded right until a year or so before he first met the Listeners in WoK, whereas in OB we saw him changing into a poltician and stepping back from military matters pretty much right after the last battle for unification of Alethkar, again roughly 28-29 years prior to the start of WoK. Kadash was supposed to have been one of Adolin's boyhood tutors in his second career as an ardent, while according to OB he barely had enough time learn his new vocation himself and only briefly tutored Adolin while still an officer. Etc.

Frankly, Gavilar making the arrangements that he did for Alethkar, as a result of which Elokhar as king was left with no lands of his own and had to depend on Dalinar and Adolin for everything never made any sense. I mean, it would have been quite difficult for even a very talented politician to truly rule in such circumstances. Also, did it mean that Kholin princedom had to pay for the royal court and it's doubtlessly high expenses, while the country was at peace and the king couldn't lease the soulcasters to the Highprinces for exorbitant prices? If, so, it weakened both the princedom and the crown for no good reason.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Isilel

[Willow]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

On another note, could @Willow or someone else tell me who Paladar is. That is one of the coolest names I've heard in a long time.

Paladar is Vamah's cousin, who's used to be the citylord of Revolar up until the events of Oathbringer He's the one that made Moash go 'Nope, I'm out of here. Let's join the enemy.': https://coppermind.net/wiki/Paladar

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

For whatever reason, I figured that it WAS a princedom before the Kholins conquered it. I imagined that with all the trouble provided by Rathalas, Gavilar disbanded it and took it for himself. To bring the number of princedoms back to 10, you'd simply need one of the other old princedoms to be split as Gavilar took over. For example, maybe Sebarial and Bethab each seized power from a single highprince, and divided the land between themselves.

There are may some problems with this, but I thought it mostly worked... Until @Willow pointed out Adolin's comment about how Elhokar doesn't own land.

Feels like a continuity error.

If not, I guess the best explanation is that the land is owned by local lords who simply don't have a highprince.

Right, I always thought that as well, but certain things don't match up. I think Gavilar says all the highprinces are descended from one of the 10 sons of the Sunmaker, and with Alethi competitiveness, I don't really see two people of the same line sharing power. Otherwise Dalinar could've used that as precedent for when he was trying to work together with the Highprinces in the Way of Kings.

I also considered that maybe the Crownlands were some old traditional area from the Epoch Kingdoms. Kaladin says in the Way of Kings that the Epoch Kingdoms lasted until the Hierocracy, so maybe the Sunmaker defeated the Ardents and then restored the Crownlands as a way of re-establishing historical precedent for a King? However, that really depends on how long the Hierocracy lasted, and there's pretty much no evidence for it, other than the fact that all those events seem to have happened right after each other.

There's also this reddit comment from Brandon Sanderson:

Quote

Kings existed in other places, and had existed in Alethkar before. (Dahn is a Vorin cultural ideal, not just Alethi.) So the system is not new, but for many years, the Alethi refused to accept a king. (Following the division of the kingdom among the Sunmaker's sons.)

That could suggest a reason for why the Crownlands could've remained unclaimed until there was a king again, but that doesn't explain Elhokar's lack of lands long after the unification of Alethkar.
One other reason I can think of (besides @Isilel 's accurate statement that there is some Early Installment Weirdness in tWoK) is that Dalinar and Sadeas' burning of Rathalas was so horrific that the Crownlands would now never accept the Kholins as rulers. Gavilar, wanting there to be some kind of peace, allowed this one exception, and only in rare cases would some lands revert to the crown.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Willow

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Willow Thanks! Paladar is just such a cool name. I wish he was a cooler dude than he is :-(

[Willow]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Willow Thanks! Paladar is just such a cool name. I wish he was a cooler dude than he is :-(

It's similar to Aladar, but with extra Pettiness.

[hypatia she/her]

My problem is that this region wasn't a part of Alethela, but of Natanatan in the Epoch Kingdoms.

It is the part nearest to the Shattered Plains - perhaps everything has to do with that.

But there is this thing with Tanalan - if Rathalas really was part of this Crownlands, it was he and his family who ended with Oathbringer, the old sword of Sunmaker, not one of the "ten sons".

And there's the feeling, that Tanalan acts like this sword was an old heirloom, nearly something sacred, not just an object of wealth and power.

How about not eleven sons, but only one or even a daughter, who was exiled in this region, when ten warlords had taken the best parts of Alethkar?

[Vissy]

On 28.3.2018 at 11:48 PM, hypatia said:

The crownland - problem is a pet peeve of me - but I don't have an answer.

The thing is - after Sunmaker Alethkar was divided into the princedoms for his 10 sons and didn't have a king.

The next king as we know about would be Gavilar - what happened with this part of Alethkar without a "crown"? Was it empty?

Or was there another son everyone had forgotten about? An eleventh princedom?

Over all I'm nearly desperate to get more informations.

Stay tuned for the latest Mistborn Stormlight Archives project, Stormlight Archives: The Lost Princedom!

[Tador]

It seems likely to me that the whole 'reverting to the crown' thing is just because the guy died with no heir. After that the highest authority in the area then chooses a new family/lighteyes to be promoted. This kind of thing happened in England, where if a noble died with no heir then the land would typically end up going to the church or the king in the will, and what with people probably not wanting to end up with another Hierocracy the land probably isn't going to the church. 

Although this still doesn't fix where the crownlands comes from, or why there isn't a Highprince equivalent ruling there. 

[Willow]

1 hour ago, hypatia said:

My problem is that this region wasn't a part of Alethela, but of Natanatan in the Epoch Kingdoms.

It is the part nearest to the Shattered Plains - perhaps everything has to do with that.

I think Natanatan was mostly empty around the end of the Epoch Kingdoms, the borders just stayed the same because there was no real reason to change it. And then the Hierocracy and then the Sunmaker happened, and all the borders were redrawn. The area directly to the right of it is called the 'Unclaimed Hills' after all, so we can probably assume that the Crownlands were claimed. I'm now guessing that the Sunmaker claimed the whole of Alethkar, but specified the Crownlands as his main lands. Then when he died, his sons fought for control of Alethkar, but somehow ended up in a stalemate with no one claiming the Eastern Crownlands.

That part of my argument is a bit shaky, but the current situation happened somehow. Maybe the quality of the land used to be a lot worse (they didn't claim the hills to the right, because it was too hard to live there), but a highstorm or rockslide changed the land in such a way that the river became more reliable, or with new engineering they were capable of building cities inside protected areas (like the Rift?).

47 minutes ago, Tador said:

It seems likely to me that the whole 'reverting to the crown' thing is just because the guy died with no heir. After that the highest authority in the area then chooses a new family/lighteyes to be promoted. This kind of thing happened in England, where if a noble died with no heir then the land would typically end up going to the church or the king in the will, and what with people probably not wanting to end up with another Hierocracy the land probably isn't going to the church. 

Although this still doesn't fix where the crownlands comes from, or why there isn't a Highprince equivalent ruling there. 

I dismissed that theory at first, because it was so unlike the rest of Alethkar, but now that we know more about Gavilar's early reign, it doesn't seem so weird anymore. I didn't understand why Gavilar didn't have the same problems that Elhokar has now, but we have to look at the circumstances.

For the entirety of Gavilar's reign, Dalinar (the official highprince of the Kholin lands) was
a. on campaign at the borders of the kingdom
b. completely drunk.
Dalinar's sons were still too young to rule, so Gavilar was able to both be a king without official land, set above the petty squabbles of the highprinces, yet have control over a decent chunk of land at the same time.

But there's still the other question, why Gavilar never took the Crownlands as his official lands after the unification. Maybe it was too much combined with the Kholin lands. Maybe he didn't want to bother, since first they were constantly rebelling, and afterwards they were angry at Dalinar and Sadeas. Either way, it seems he was content with managing the Kholin lands.

Elhokar then had the bad luck to be a more unsure ruler right after the guy who united the kingdom (the period of the son's reign is the weakest moment in a kingdom's history, according to Dalinar). I think he pretty much continued ruling exactly as Gavilar had, focusing his interest on the management of the Kholin lands besides his duties as a monarch. Only Dalinar managed to get his act together again, and started taking responsibility for his own princedom. I don't think Elhokar would have succeeded at changing the way the Crownlands were ruled, after they got used to this independence, and I don't think he tried. So Elhokar just.. ended up in the situation we see in tWoK.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Willow

[Subvisual Haze]

This may be a clever case of realism on Brandon's part.  Mythology to justify ruling dynasties can have an a very loose relationship with the real world.  The symbolism is the important thing.

Take the classic famous example: the 12 Tribes of Israel.  Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons, and those 12 sons were the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel.  Simple right?  Nope!  Read your Bible closely and the exact identity of the 12 Tribes subtly changes depending on where you're reading.  The Tribe of Levi was one of the original 12, but then was set apart as a priestly tribe with no land of their own and Joseph's tribe was split into two different tribes based on his 2 sons (which kind of wrecks the earlier simplicity of 12 brothers model).  The books of Ezekiel and Revelation add even more confusion to the precise identity of the 12.  Ezekiel counts Joseph as one of the 12 in one spot, then splits it in 2 in a different spot.  Revelation seemingly at random kicks out one of the undisputed tribes.

In the end the fact that there are 12 tribes and they are descended from 12 original "brothers" is more important from a symbolic standpoint than the actual division of said tribes.  I imagine there is a similar situation at work with the Alethi.  There should be 10 Highprinces, who exactly they are or which son of Sunmaker they claim to descend from is of secondary importance.