[OB] Eshonai WoB

[RShara she/her]

I guess their roles can be viewed as similar, but their attitudes, characterization and thoughts are very different.  Eshonai was adventurous but thought of her people first.  Venli is power-hungry and put herself before everyone else.

And considering Brandon's been saying he's willing to write a flashback book for someone dead for years, I really don't think this was a spur-of-the-moment thing.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

6 hours ago, galendo said:

You said something like this before, but I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.  Venli and Eshonai are basically the same.  High-ranking Parshendi in Odium's army?  Check.  Have knowledge of Parshendi culture from before the Everstorm?  Check.  Able to secretly convert huge swaths of Parsendi to their cause?  I actually think Eshonai would be better than Venli here, but whatever, check.

Differences between Eshonai and Venli:

• E hates anything to do with their old gods/Fused and was tricked and semi-forced into a voidform. V was working for 5 years to get the Fused back.
• E was slated for execution by the voidspren and would have been killed by the Fused themselves before Part 2 was over. Why?
  • Because the Fused hated the Listeners for turning their back on them mighty ancestors millenia ago, therefore they were wiping out every single Listener either by sacrifices to the Fused or by putting them in danger.
  • Because the Listeners represented a threat to the Fused much bigger than the humans ever could, by giving the Singers an alternative culture and role models in their new awakening.
  • Because Eshonai in her right mind was the leader of the Listeners, and the first Listener the Fused would execute.
  • Because Eshonai was resisting her voidspren and the Fused disliked that.
  • Venli is the only one that was spared of the Listeners as a reward for being the one to bring them back.
• Eshonai is a warrior, a explorer and a general. V is a scholar and a searcher.
• E always did the right thing and had a lot more empathy and compassion than V, and generally saw the world in a very positive and optimistic light. V was a lot more bitter and ambitious, and generally thought worse of people and the world than E.
• E cared about her people first and foremost, and always put their needs above hers. V is power hungry, and all she ever wanted was power, control and authority. She always cared about herself first, then a far second came her people.

Addressing your points. E wouldn't be a high ranking member of Odium's forces as she would have been executed (unless she managed to flee first). Yes, both know Listener culture, but that wouldn't matter when Eshonai was dead. If by some miracle E could have stayed alive inside the Odium force she would have completely lacked the subtlelty to turn the Singers against Odium. Eshonai would have probably decried Odium openly, or been quite obvious about it, if for no other reason than she hated anything voidy. Venli will probably be more subtle about it, able to play the long game. 

I hope this explained my thoughts on how I liked Eshonai more, but believe Venli is in a better position to help the Singers .

[Yata he/him]

11 hours ago, galendo said:

You said something like this before, but I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.  Venli and Eshonai are basically the same.  High-ranking Parshendi in Odium's army?  Check.  Have knowledge of Parshendi culture from before the Everstorm?  Check.  Able to secretly convert huge swaths of Parsendi to their cause?  I actually think Eshonai would be better than Venli here, but whatever, check.

Well it's a really superficial comparison.

It's like to say that Renarin and Jasnah are the same because both are high ranking Alethi, both are in Dalinar's forces and both know Stuffs beyond the average knowledge of their faction.

Characters are much more than the context they are. Venli and Eshonai are really different people with different attitude and different approches and goals.

Their situation is also extremely different also if they were the copy of each others... Eshonai will never follow the same Venli's progression (and vice versa).

I like Eshonai, really and I like Venli too. The two are so different in almost everything to the point that their likehoods could be mostly resumed in your list (and a bit more)

But yeah this is not the actual topic, so sorry for going OT

Edited March 12, 2018 by Yata

[Govir]

On 3/8/2018 at 7:43 PM, CrazyRioter said:

All of those cases were due to the direct intervention of a Shard. We have no evidence that it could happen spontaneously, and the explanation that Timbre was just a spren that was going to bond/in the process of bonding with Eshonai and latched onto Venli after Eshonai died was always the simpler explanation. and the one with the weight of textual evidence behind it.

(I will refer to the spren as Timbre, but know that at the time of all of this the name was unknown).

I still hold to my view that as of the end of WoR, thinking Timbre was Eshoni's soul was plausible. I will concede that as of the end of OB, it is not plausible. Prior to OB, we did not see a KR spren be left behind when the proto-KR was killed prior to fully bonding. We also never saw an example of a KR spren being attracted to a Parshendi. We never see Timbre prior to Eshoni taking Stormform. On the other side, we also never see other Parshendi cognitive shadow either, but Stormform was a new thing and we knew little of how Parshendi worked. That being said, I think either theory of Timbre being a KR spren or Eshoni's cognitive shadow were plausible. It just turned out that the KR spren was the correct theory.

10 hours ago, Yata said:

But yeah this is not the actual topic, so sorry for going OT

I mean, the topic didn't really have a point other than to share @Overlord Jebus's reaction. And then maybe tangentially to show that Eshoni is definitely dead (which I hadn't realized was still in debate as of the end of OB). So you're fine imo.

[Wyndlerunner he/him]

Eshonai is a good character and all, but I feel as though Venli has a greater potential for character growth. I am intrigued by Eshonai's flashbacks for a better understanding of Listener culture

[galendo]

On 3/11/2018 at 5:35 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Differences between Eshonai and Venli:

• E hates anything to do with their old gods/Fused and was tricked and semi-forced into a voidform. V was working for 5 years to get the Fused back..

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of got the impression that Venli was "tricked" into doing what she did about as much as Eshonai was.  Certainly neither expected the results they got.  There's also some hints in WoR that Venli had taken voidform before, as Eshonai notes that she seemed suspiciously comfortable in stormform.  So she may not have been in her right mind for all of her research phase.

Quote

E was slated for execution by the voidspren and would have been killed by the Fused themselves before Part 2 was over.

...

Addressing your points. E wouldn't be a high ranking member of Odium's forces as she would have been executed (unless she managed to flee first).

You mean they might have executed her by, say, tricking her into the storm to bond a Fused exactly like they did Venli?  I don't really buy most of your reasons for why the Fused would supposedly execute her (at least, not any more or less than they would Venli, and since they didn't outright kill her I can't think they'd have done so to Eshonai either).  I do believe that they'd have forced Eshonai into the storm to bond one of the Fused, exactly like they did Venli and, for that matter, all the other surviving Parshendi.

The difference is that with Venli, we needed the literal deus ex machina of Odium personally intervening on her behalf.  For Eshonai, we'd only have needed Timbre to do for her what he did with Venli later.  Why did Odium intervene?  It seems crazy.  We know he can see farther than Tavargian, and smart Tavargian would have seen her rebellion coming from a mile away, so Odium has to be able to see Venli's rebellion coming if he's paying enough attention to her to intervene on her behalf.  Unless it turns out that her rebellion is somehow playing into Odium's hands, it seems like a pretty gaping plot hole.

Quote

• Eshonai is a warrior, a explorer and a general. V is a scholar and a searcher.

This would be a good point, if at any point in Oathbringer the difference had mattered at all.  Venli didn't do any scholarly things all book, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that she'll do any in the future.  I'll retain the right to eat my words if in book four she's somehow forced to do a bunch of research that Eshonai couldn't possibly have done, but right now I just don't see it happening.

Quote

• Venli will probably be more subtle about it, able to play the long game. 

This actually is a good point, though I'd argue that Eshonai proved herself plenty capable of subtlety in WoR, when she sent her friends down into the chasms rather than force them into stormform.  That might or might not have ended up working out -- we don't really know what happened to them -- but it was at least a subtle and clever idea.

22 hours ago, Yata said:

Well it's a really superficial comparison.

It's like to say that Renarin and Jasnah are the same because both are high ranking Alethi, both are in Dalinar's forces and both know Stuffs beyond the average knowledge of their faction.

Characters are much more than the context they are. Venli and Eshonai are really different people with different attitude and different approches and goals.

Their situation is also extremely different also if they were the copy of each others... Eshonai will never follow the same Venli's progression (and vice versa).

The Renarin/Jasnah comparison doesn't seem quite the same as Venli/Eshonai.  Yes, they're both exceedingly similar -- there's a reason some people dislike the idea of "yet another Kholin Radiant" -- but they're saved from coming across as functionally identical first, because they've each had a lot more screen time.  I'm guessing Jasnah and Renarin have shown up on at least ten times as many pages as Eshonai and Venli, and that gives time to emphasize the differences between them.  Second, they're saved from coming off as identical because they're struggling against different things.  Jasnah was struggling to find Urithiru,  Renarin was just struggling to fit in.  Those are very different struggles, unlike Venli and Eshonai who both struggle to save their people.

As for Venli and Eshonai....  I dunno, I guess I do see them following the same progression.  Imagine for a moment that Eshonai had survived.  Rather than finding her corpse, she'd have been found alive.  Do you think the story would have been any different?  Eshonai still would have been forced into the storm.  She still would have bonded Timbre.  She still would have chafed under Odium's thumb (and Odium would probably have had a better reason to harass her than he did her sister).  She would still have worked covertly to save the Parshendi heritage.  Most of their scenes would have been almost exactly the same.

Everything that Venli did, Eshonai would have done.  Everything that Venli felt, Eshonai would have felt.  The specifics of their actions and regrets might differ somewhat (Eshonai, for instance, would have been mourning her sister in the scene where Venli was mourning her lover), but they'd be fundamentally the same.

[Calderis he/him]

@galendo I honestly think this is one of those things where it's all about feelings. Even all looked at the same evidence here, and we all seem to feel differently.

I don't think it's going to change on anyone's part. 

Some of us like Venli, some others don't. Some of us are excited for her PoV, and others seem like their just going to have to bear through it. 

I'm just sorry it seems to have soured the book for you so much. 

[Isilel]

On 11.3.2018 at 6:33 PM, galendo said:

You don't see them as both following the same path?  Both horrified by the destruction of their people?  Both wracked by guilt about their own contributions to the cause?  Both rebelling against Odium by keeping their history alive?  They seem like almost identically the same character, just with different backstories.

 Not really. Venli was obssessed with power and thought that their ancestors were foolish to turn their backs on the Unmade and sacrifice so much of their stature. She also liked discovering new things yes, and she wanted to return the Listeners to glory, but a lot of it was always tied into her own ambitions. She was a typical "mad scientists" in other words. Assuming the voidform didn't really change her character - as Eshonai herself noted and as we have seen through Venli's own PoVs. It made her more callous and ruthless than she was naturally, but not by much. In fact, if she had gotten all that she had hoped for from her betrayal of her people as far as her own aspirations were concerned, I am not even sure that she would have been tempted to turn. Odium and the Fused made a big mistake by treating her shabbily and giving her reasons for resentment - which also led to regret and eventually a sense of guilt.

Eshonai was very different - she did perhaps inadverently cause this mess by "discovering" humans and later informing the Elders of Gavilar's intentions and voting in favor of his assassination, but none of it happened for self-serving reasons. And afterwards, she did everything she could to protect the Listeners, while remaining true to their ideals. It is her very sense of responsibility and self-sacrifice that led to the tragedy, as she was tricked into bonding a void-spren and mind-controlled in betraying the very people whom she had tried to hard to save. All she really wanted was to be free to explore and see something new and wonderous.

As such, I see her  struggle against mind-control as a desperate cat-and-mouse game rather than Venli's desenchantment and rebellion plot. 

 

On 11.3.2018 at 6:33 PM, galendo said:

 But at least with Szeth, we get something out of it.  We get to bring Nightblood into the story and we get (potentially) an interesting character arc that we wouldn't have otherwise.

 Nightblood was supposed to come into the story anyway - Szeth wasn't required for it. I do wonder who was supposed to wield it before Sanderson decided to keep Szeth. Maybe Nale's arc was supposed to be somewhat different and hit similar points - and if so, I would have very much preferred that to Szeth's revival.

On 11.3.2018 at 6:33 PM, galendo said:

 If you consider Wit's story about Fleet to be more than fanciful, there's also the precedent of living people merging with spren/Investiture after they die.  So even someone who did remember Timbre could reasonably think that they'd merged into one.

huh, I never considered Fleet's story in that way. Very interesting. Makes me wonder yet again if Soulcaster Kaza became a smokespren. I thought it likely anyway, but with Hoid's possible oblique hint here it seems even more likely.

 

On 11.3.2018 at 9:38 PM, RShara said:

And considering Brandon's been saying he's willing to write a flashback book for someone dead for years, I really don't think this was a spur-of-the-moment thing.

Yes, but then, Szeth was supposed to be that "someone" or one of them, until some point into writing of WoR. The third book was supposed to be his flashback book originally, after all.

On 12.3.2018 at 1:35 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

• E was slated for execution by the voidspren and would have been killed by the Fused themselves before Part 2 was over. Why?
  • Because Eshonai was resisting her voidspren and the Fused disliked that.

This was ex-post facto justification. If Sanderson chose to keep Eshonai, then the Fused would have thought that she was completely mind-controlled and as a charismatic public speaker ideal for indoctrinating the new singers.

 

[RShara she/her]

13 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 Yes, but then, Szeth was supposed to be that "someone" or one of them, until some point into writing of WoR. The third book was supposed to be his flashback book originally, after all.

Just because Szeth was slated to be book 3, doesn't mean he was the one slated to die. Or at least, not the *only* one slated to die. I think Szeth *not* dying was actually foreshadowed.

Edited March 13, 2018 by RShara

[galendo]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

@galendo I honestly think this is one of those things where it's all about feelings. Even all looked at the same evidence here, and we all seem to feel differently.

I don't think it's going to change on anyone's part. 

Some of us like Venli, some others don't. Some of us are excited for her PoV, and others seem like their just going to have to bear through it. 

I'm just sorry it seems to have soured the book for you so much. 

I think you're right about this.  I normally wouldn't reply just to say "Yeah, I agree", but I feel like we've been on opposite sides of several discussions lately, so I just wanted to also say that I've always appreciated your contributions.  Even if we do seem to have pretty differing viewpoints of late.

11 hours ago, Isilel said:

 Nightblood was supposed to come into the story anyway - Szeth wasn't required for it. I do wonder who was supposed to wield it before Sanderson decided to keep Szeth. Maybe Nale's arc was supposed to be somewhat different and hit similar points - and if so, I would have very much preferred that to Szeth's revival.

But introducing Nightblood without Szeth would have been strange.  I suppose Vasher could have had the sword, but there wasn't really anyone else that Nalan could have possibly given the blade to.  Though, now that I think about it, Vasher could have taken Szeth's place at, say, the battle of Thaylen City without much difficulty.  It is a bit weird that we didn't see him at all in Oathbringer, or at least not very much.

Quote

huh, I never considered Fleet's story in that way. Very interesting. Makes me wonder yet again if Soulcaster Kaza became a smokespren. I thought it likely anyway, but with Hoid's possible oblique hint here it seems even more likely.

I can't claim credit for the Fleet interpretation.  I first heard the theory on these very boards, but I've loved it ever since.  I hadn't thought of Kaza becoming a smokespren, either, but it does seem at least plausible -- she's a pretty Invested being with a strong smoke affinity, which seems about 90% of what a smokespren is.  It's probably more likely that she just turned herself into smoke and passed Beyond, but I could easily see it going either way.

11 hours ago, RShara said:

Just because Szeth was slated to be book 3, doesn't mean he was the one slated to die. Or at least, not the *only* one slated to die. I think Szeth *not* dying was actually foreshadowed.

I think Isilel was referring to the Brandon quote he/she linked saying that Szeth's resurrection was a late change to WoR.  If Szeth's return was a late change, then any Brandon quotes from before WoR was published about seeing a flashback sequence from someone already dead would have most likely referred to Szeth than to any other character, since his flashback book was book 3 at the time.

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, galendo said:

I think you're right about this.  I normally wouldn't reply just to say "Yeah, I agree", but I feel like we've been on opposite sides of several discussions lately, so I just wanted to also say that I've always appreciated your contributions.  Even if we do seem to have pretty differing viewpoints of late.

Eh, I hold some views that seem to be in the majority, and others that seem like their just me at times. I'm used to disagreeing with just about everybody here at times, and as I've tried to make clear lately, it's never personal. 

Regardless of our interpretations and differences in opinion, I'm just glad we have a place to talk about it. 

No matter what paths the books take, I hope you find something to enjoy in them, and look forward to the conversations, no matter which side we're on respectively. 

[Yata he/him]

23 hours ago, Isilel said:

huh, I never considered Fleet's story in that way. Very interesting. Makes me wonder yet again if Soulcaster Kaza became a smokespren. I thought it likely anyway, but with Hoid's possible oblique hint here it seems even more likely.

People don't turn into Spren, it doesn't work in that way so Kaza can't became a smokespren.

The best that could happen to a mortal is to become so invested over his/her life to turn into a Cognitive Shadow (like the Heralds or Fused) upon death. Kaza as a Soulcaster in a deep state of Savantism could have reach that point.

If this is the case, She simply spawned in Shadesmar has herself and she had the choose to reach the Beyond or stay around on Shadesmar

Edited March 14, 2018 by Yata

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Yeah, spren are not just heavily invested souls, they are pure Investiture in basic form that has come alive. Fundamentally different then ordinary souls.

People in universe might call the Fused spren, but they' be technically incorrect.

Edited March 15, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[Calderis he/him]

I know this is just semantics, but spren is a Rosharan term. A CS is a spren. A Shard is a spren. Storming everything is a spren. 

What we typically think of as a Spren is a Splinter, and there's no way Kaza became one of those.

Rosharans use the term spren to mean, "investiture that is alive," so a CS qualifies, but that wouldn't be a "smokespren" 

Quote

Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

Questioner

So the Nightwatcher is a spren you'd say?

Brandon Sanderson

The Nightwatcher-- I mean, they call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That's what they would call-- that's what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive.

Bystander

Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So they would call Nightblood a spren. They would call-- That's the word for what all of these things are. They would probably've called Adonalsium a spren…

Moderator

What would Hoid call one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

What would Hoid call the Nightwatcher? *laughter* What would Hoid call one of what?

Moderator

Yeah what would Hoid call the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… *long pause/laughter*

Moderator

If Hoid were to use a non-proper noun?

Brandon Sanderson

Unpleasant names. *laughter*

source

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara she/her]

Everything that doesn't have a permanent-physical-body-that-dies is basically a spren yeah.  Just like everything with feathers is a chicken and all bugs are cremlings.  Rosharans are big on generalities.

Edited March 14, 2018 by RShara

[Nymeros]

On 3/13/2018 at 0:05 AM, galendo said:

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of got the impression that Venli was "tricked" into doing what she did about as much as Eshonai was.  Certainly neither expected the results they got.  There's also some hints in WoR that Venli had taken voidform before, as Eshonai notes that she seemed suspiciously comfortable in stormform.  So she may not have been in her right mind for all of her research phase.

You mean they might have executed her by, say, tricking her into the storm to bond a Fused exactly like they did Venli?  I don't really buy most of your reasons for why the Fused would supposedly execute her (at least, not any more or less than they would Venli, and since they didn't outright kill her I can't think they'd have done so to Eshonai either).  I do believe that they'd have forced Eshonai into the storm to bond one of the Fused, exactly like they did Venli and, for that matter, all the other surviving Parshendi.

The difference is that with Venli, we needed the literal deus ex machina of Odium personally intervening on her behalf.  For Eshonai, we'd only have needed Timbre to do for her what he did with Venli later.  Why did Odium intervene?  It seems crazy.  We know he can see farther than Tavargian, and smart Tavargian would have seen her rebellion coming from a mile away, so Odium has to be able to see Venli's rebellion coming if he's paying enough attention to her to intervene on her behalf.  Unless it turns out that her rebellion is somehow playing into Odium's hands, it seems like a pretty gaping plot hole.

This would be a good point, if at any point in Oathbringer the difference had mattered at all.  Venli didn't do any scholarly things all book, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that she'll do any in the future.  I'll retain the right to eat my words if in book four she's somehow forced to do a bunch of research that Eshonai couldn't possibly have done, but right now I just don't see it happening.

This actually is a good point, though I'd argue that Eshonai proved herself plenty capable of subtlety in WoR, when she sent her friends down into the chasms rather than force them into stormform.  That might or might not have ended up working out -- we don't really know what happened to them -- but it was at least a subtle and clever idea.

The Renarin/Jasnah comparison doesn't seem quite the same as Venli/Eshonai.  Yes, they're both exceedingly similar -- there's a reason some people dislike the idea of "yet another Kholin Radiant" -- but they're saved from coming across as functionally identical first, because they've each had a lot more screen time.  I'm guessing Jasnah and Renarin have shown up on at least ten times as many pages as Eshonai and Venli, and that gives time to emphasize the differences between them.  Second, they're saved from coming off as identical because they're struggling against different things.  Jasnah was struggling to find Urithiru,  Renarin was just struggling to fit in.  Those are very different struggles, unlike Venli and Eshonai who both struggle to save their people.

As for Venli and Eshonai....  I dunno, I guess I do see them following the same progression.  Imagine for a moment that Eshonai had survived.  Rather than finding her corpse, she'd have been found alive.  Do you think the story would have been any different?  Eshonai still would have been forced into the storm.  She still would have bonded Timbre.  She still would have chafed under Odium's thumb (and Odium would probably have had a better reason to harass her than he did her sister).  She would still have worked covertly to save the Parshendi heritage.  Most of their scenes would have been almost exactly the same.

Everything that Venli did, Eshonai would have done.  Everything that Venli felt, Eshonai would have felt.  The specifics of their actions and regrets might differ somewhat (Eshonai, for instance, would have been mourning her sister in the scene where Venli was mourning her lover), but they'd be fundamentally the same.

That's so surprising to read; the two are just so different from one another that I cannot imagine their stories following similar beats. I don't see Eshonai as to type to serve Odium out of fear, ever. She would have gained superpowers, found her lost people, then started wrecking faces.

She's too much a woman of action. For example, at the Tower Battle, her first instinct was to do her best to kick the crap out of Dalinar and inspect him instead of simply speaking with him.

On 3/14/2018 at 1:24 PM, CrazyRioter said:

Yeah, spren are not just heavily invested souls, they are pure Investiture in basic form that has come alive. Fundamentally different then ordinary souls.

People in universe might call the Fused spren, but they' be technically incorrect.

Exactly

On 3/14/2018 at 4:00 PM, RShara said:

Everything that doesn't have a permanent-physical-body-that-dies is basically a spren yeah.  Just like everything with feathers is a chicken and all bugs are cremlings.  Rosharans are big on generalities.

Eh. The question was never "would Rosharans call an invested sentient spirit a spren." It was "would Eshonai's would become a spren as readers understand them to be" which was always pretty silly to me.

[cometaryorbit]

I dunno, I mean the Stormfather is apparently both a Cognitive Shadow (Tanavast's) and a spren. The borderlines might not be that clear. It's not inherently obvious to me that Syl has more in common with a flamespren than she does with (Mistborn: Secret History spoilers)

Spoiler

Kelsier

 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I dunno, I mean the Stormfather is apparently both a Cognitive Shadow (Tanavast's) and a spren. The borderlines might not be that clear. It's not inherently obvious to me that Syl has more in common with a flamespren than she does with (Mistborn: Secret History spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier

 

The Stormfather is a weird case. Because it was a spren before it was a Cognitive Shadow. 

The Shadow of Tanavast merged with an existing Spren to become a single entity. It's both, but still more Spren than Shadow. 

I think that the size of the Splinter, made Tanavast's Shadow, a human shadow, miniscule in comparison, and the ratio of investiture left the Spren's personality dominant.