[OB] Eshonai WoB

[Govir]

I originally thought Timbre was maybe Eshoni's soul back when we saw the as of then unnamed Timbre in WoR, but when we saw more of Timbre in OB I abandoned that train of thought.

Because of this, I found this WoB to be funny. Especially @Overlord Jebus's reaction to it.

 

Quote

 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Has Eshonai left for the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. I'll canonize this. I'm sorry. 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

*sounds of horror and shock* Noooo, nooooo, RAFO it!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

You wanted..that was a RAFO-bait but, so I never intended that..if you want to leave this one out there...But I never intended Timbre to be Eshonai's soul. When people said that in the beta, I'm like, "Oh, I guess you could see that, but I mean that's not how spren work, right?"

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

I was going to say, so you're saying Timbre is not Eshonai's soul.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. I never even thought they would make that connection. Because we saw Timbre in the previous book. I mean, I don't want to kill people's fan theories. But that one kind of blindsided me in the beta. I'm like, "Well I guess we'll go ahead and let people think that but...no." No.

You can leave that one off if you want to tease people and things. Some people really want to believe that.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

I made a bet that Eshonai was not only still be alive after Words of Radiance, but would also become Radiant. And then the bet was if not I had to eat a shoe.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh no!

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So I've been trying to get out of it for like...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well you could eat a gummy shoe or something like that. 

But no, I didn't intend this. No.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Govir
say -> saw

[RShara]

I'm the one that got Jebus to ask that.  His reaction is truly glorious, and I'm glad we can put the theory to rest.  To get the full enjoyment out of it, make sure to listen to his reaction.  It's amazing, and he's never going to live it down.  Right @Overlord Jebus ?

[Overlord Jebus]

My gravestone will read

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Here lies Overlord Jebus, chocked on a shoe

And its going to be all Brandon's fault. 

I also hadn't realised just how attached I was to the idea of Eshonai coming back until Brandon tore it out from under me. What you hear there is true grief. 

[CrazyRioter]

I wish Eshonai hadn't died, but I thought that theory was kind of silly personally. Spren don't work like that and a spren that was probably Timbre was seen briefly in WoR anyway.

[RShara]

He comes from the WoB, one dead man, a shoe in his mouth, and I know that I have seen true grief.

[Overlord Jebus]

My name is Overlord Jebus, lord of lords;
Look on my WoBs, ye Mighty, and despair!

[Govir]

30 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I wish Eshonai hadn't died, but I thought that theory was kind of silly personally. Spren don't work like that and a spren that was probably Timbre was seen briefly in WoR anyway.

It made more sense when it was just WoR. The reason I thought it was Eshoni is because it was buzzing around about the same time we see Stormform Eshoni thinking she hears her own voice screaming. i.e. Timbre looked like it was trying to get Stormform Eshoni's attention at the same time Stormform Eshoni thinks she hears her own voice. I also suspected that something was odd with the way the Parshendi took forms such that the spren being used were "trapped" inside the Parshendi.

Also coupled with this Mistborn: Secret History spoiler

Spoiler

I knew that there was a part of people beyond the physical, e.g. like Kelsier after he died.

So my theory was that the Voidspren that caused Stormform actually kicked out Eshoni's soul (a la Kelsier in Secret History), and what we were seeing wasn't a "spren" like other sprens, but rather Eshoni's essence which was able to manifest in the physical realm because of Roshar's apparently "thinner" barrier to Shadesmar (not an actual thing, that I know of). I guess I ended up being kind of right with what the Fused are, but that process actually kills the host and the new Fused doesn't have any memories from the original Parshendi.

 

[galendo]

3 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I wish Eshonai hadn't died, but I thought that theory was kind of silly personally. Spren don't work like that and a spren that was probably Timbre was seen briefly in WoR anyway.

Maybe I don't really understand, but it seems like it wouldn't be impossible for a person's cognitive shadow to merge with a spren.  I thought that was partly the point of Wit's story about Fleet in WoR, and of course we know that Honor combined with the Stormfather later.  It makes extra sense when we see that the Fused are basically Cognitive Shadows who come back like spren (as spren?  Is there a difference?) and bond with Parshendi.

I'm actually kind of sad to hear that it isn't what Brandon's planning.  I think that killing off Eshonai was the biggest mistake of Oathbringer (and maybe the biggest mistake of SA thus far), and one of the few ways I thought to sort-of redeem it would be to have Eshonai stick around in some way, shape, or form.

[CrazyRioter]

All of those cases were due to the direct intervention of a Shard. We have no evidence that it could happen spontaneously, and the explanation that Timbre was just a spren that was going to bond/in the process of bonding with Eshonai and latched onto Venli after Eshonai died was always the simpler explanation. and the one with the weight of textual evidence behind it.

[Raykoda]

Honestly, thank god for Brandon finally laying those asinine Eshonai = Timbre theories to rest.  I was getting a little tired with arguing with people that Timbre was actually captain Ico's daughter.

Secondarily, I just don't understand the people getting mad at Eshonai's death. Y'all are the same people who got mad at all of the fake-out deaths in WoR.  I've already seen memes and posts all about how there's no way that Venli could possibly have a good redemption arc, and that the fourth book is completely ruined.  Have some faith! I'm sure Brandon knows what he's doing. 

[StormingTexan]

I actually LOL when I read this WoB the other day. 

[galendo]

16 hours ago, Raykoda said:

Secondarily, I just don't understand the people getting mad at Eshonai's death. Y'all are the same people who got mad at all of the fake-out deaths in WoR. 

I'll try to explain, since I'm one of those people who think that Eshonai's death was the biggest mistake in Oathbringer and that Jasnah's "death" was probably the biggest non-Shallan mistake in WoR.  I'll caveat by saying that this is only my opinion, so others might agree or disagree for different reasons.

For me, it's about cost-benefit analysis.  Look at what was gained, and what was given up.  The only gain from Jasnah's "death" was a bit of tension (in the reader) about not knowing whether she was alive or not, and her arguable surprise appearance at the end of WoR.  In exchange for this dubious and fairly transient gain, The Stormlight Archive was cemented as a "death is cheap" series, where the readers can't trust that a character is dead even after they've seen the body.  It's possible that Gawx's and Szeth's resurrections would have been too much by themselves, but Jasnah's "resurrection" definitely put it over the top.

You want to know why there have been so many Timbre = Eshonai theories?  That's why.  Because death is cheap.  The only two ways we have to know that someone is dead in SA are "Death by Nightblood" and "Word of Brandon".  And the reason this is the case -- the reason that we can't assume someone is dead even after we've seen the corpse -- is because of what happened with Szeth and Jasnah.  In the case of Szeth, I'll allow that there were probably narrative necessities and that the ultimate benefits may outweigh the cost.  In the case of Jasnah, that's clearly not the case.

You can do the same analysis for Eshonai.  In every scene we get with Venli -- literally every scene, IMHO -- that scene would have been more powerful and/or made more sense if Eshonai were there instead.  What reason did Venli have to risk her life to hide Timbre, for instance?  Eshonai would have, sure, I'd believe that; but Venli, not so much.  Or for another example: when Dalinar reaches out through the Stormfather for a Parshendi to talk with, who would have made more sense narratively: the Parshendi with whom he'd already had abortive peace talks before, or some random Parshendi woman he'd never met?  For a third example: when our main Parshendi is saved from the Fused who would inhabit her, which makes more sense: that Odium intervened personally to save Venli despite that she would later betray him (the scene we got), or that Timbre saved Eshonai when she opened herself to the storm (the scene we might have had)?

You can do this compare-and-contrast for every Venli scene.  Basically, I can't even think about Venli's scenes without imagining the much better and more coherent versions we might have got with Eshonai.  The swap was the worst mistake in Oathbringer, bar none.

[RShara]

Well, to be fair, Brandon's said he wished that he'd made it more clear that Jasnah wasn't dead.  He never meant it to be as big a question as it was.  He thought it was somewhat obvious, because of the whole stormlight healing and her body going missing thing.

Edited March 10, 2018 by RShara

[Calderis]

It probably is a matter of expectations. 

I never believed Jasnah was dead. Szeth and Gawx were both dead for a short enough time frame to not have any real emotional effect. Death did not become "cheap" to me, but it did ramp up the stakes. If it's that difficult to keep someone dead and the desolations were still as devastating as we've been told, then the level of destruction coming must be truly terrifying. 

As to Venli, I find her more interesting than I ever found Eshonai, and I liked Eshonai. 

With Venli we have a character who is bitter and resentful of the sister who is allowed all of the freedoms that she's desired and rejected out of duty and responsibility. Whose desire for novelty and exploration drove her down paths of knowledge that she thought would save her people but in reality doomed them. 

She pushes and believes she's achieved her goals, only to find that the sister that she resented yet loved is dead as a result of her actions, and the people she thought she was saving are not only being subjugated but killed in order to house the spirits of their gods. 

She protected Timbre because of her love of Eshonai. She turned away from everything we saw her do in WoR because in achieving everything she attempted then, she learned it cost her and her people everything she held dear. 

I absolutely love Venli's arc at this point, and can't wait for the next book. So yeah, subjective media. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Calderis

[Raykoda]

Yeah, Jasnah's death was a bit of a cock-up on Brandon's part.  But if yet again, a death in WoR turned out to be cheap, It would've been even worse.  For this one, he kept to his guns and showed that death means death.  As for the only ways we know if they are truly dead being Nightblood or WoB? That's just silly.  Anyone who legitimately thinks that Eshonai was Timbre, either was just holding out hope for a ridiculous asspull, or just didn't notice all of the evidence to the contrary.

I'll disagree with your part about Venli just being a worse replacement for Eshonai in this book.  The difference is that Venli is flawed and dare I say, broken, in a way that Eshonai wasn't.  Do you think that Eshonai would willingly be Odium's spokesperson? No storming way.  And that's because Eshonai is a better (morals) character, but not a better (narrative) character.  Which is to say, @Calderis is completely right.  It wouldn't even be hard to convince me that Eshonai wouldn't become a KR like Venli did. 

And what's with all of the focus on this book? Brandon plots stuff way further in advance for this to be a last second swap, and he probably has heard your opinion on the internet before.  As I said in my previous post, have some faith. 

[CrazyRioter]

I don't think it makes sense to say that Eshonai would have been better in Venli's place then Venli is, because Eshonai was a different character and would have needed a different plotline.

Venli's plotline happened the way it did because that's who she is and was as a character.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Honestly speaking Venli is in a position to gain a lot more for the Singers than Eshonai ever could. Eshonai could become a KR, fight, find the Listeners and make a pact between Listeners and humans. Venli can become a KR, sway a percentage of the Listeners and eventually figure out a pact with the humans. Eshonai would have fought from the start just because their legends said their gods were bad news. Venli will have to figure out and see with her own eyes why the Fused are bad news.

[galendo]

Lots of people seem to disagree with me, and this is fine -- I'm glad that Venli works for you guys, even if she doesn't for me.  I really don't get what you guys see in her, since you obviously see something more than a poor Eshonai replacement, and no matter how I look at her, that's all I can see.  I see a character with less complexity than Eshonai, a character with less potential than Eshonai, a character given less development than Eshonai, who was shoe-horned into Eshonai's place.

I maybe could have got behind Venli if she hadn't been so clearly an Eshonai replacement, but it would have meant a completely different story arc as befits a completely different character.  It would have involved Timbre having left and returned to Shadesmar or finding someone else to bond or whatever it is unattached spren do (Venli and Eshonai seem to have pretty different characters, so a good spren for one probably isn't a good match for the other).  It would have meant not having a Parshendi character for Dalinar to reach out to.  It  would have needed a lot of things to happen differently, in my mind.  Like, every scene involving Venli, basically.  As it is, Venli just comes across as a bad Eshonai replacement.

[RShara]

28 minutes ago, galendo said:

Lots of people seem to disagree with me, and this is fine -- I'm glad that Venli works for you guys, even if she doesn't for me.  I really don't get what you guys see in her, since you obviously see something more than a poor Eshonai replacement, and no matter how I look at her, that's all I can see.  I see a character with less complexity than Eshonai, a character with less potential than Eshonai, a character given less development than Eshonai, who was shoe-horned into Eshonai's place.

I maybe could have got behind Venli if she hadn't been so clearly an Eshonai replacement, but it would have meant a completely different story arc as befits a completely different character.  It would have involved Timbre having left and returned to Shadesmar or finding someone else to bond or whatever it is unattached spren do (Venli and Eshonai seem to have pretty different characters, so a good spren for one probably isn't a good match for the other).  It would have meant not having a Parshendi character for Dalinar to reach out to.  It  would have needed a lot of things to happen differently, in my mind.  Like, every scene involving Venli, basically.  As it is, Venli just comes across as a bad Eshonai replacement.

I really liked Eshonai better than I do Venli, myself, but I don't think Eshonai was ever meant to survive.  From the way Brandon has phrased things, I get the feeling Eshonai was always slated to die and Venli always meant to be the relevant character.

[Yata]

I liked Eshonai but I find Venli as a more interesting character.

I am glad to be' able to read others Eshonai's PoV in book 4 to Explore her more. But the adult Eshonai was mainly what we already saw and no more.

By the way, She was already under control for her faulty bond...I believe She would be One of the first to be' disposed once the Desolation properly starts.

Returning to Venli, I don't see Venli as a replacement... The two characters are truly too different to see them in that way.

Lastly I have to completely disagree with the "biggest mistake in OB". To me the discover of Eshonai's body was One of the top moments in OB.

Her survival was plausible and my mind automatically accepted her as alive. Indeed She survive the call only to suffucate in the Storm just After (A risk well explained in wok and WoR)... I like her as a character and her death was a shock. But It was a well planned shock

[Nymeros]

Yessssss. Thank you Brandon. Eshonai's death was perfect and her coming back to life after being dead weeks would have been crazy. 

She was too boring and duty bound in the present anyways. her past self was much much more enjoyable so I look forward to her flashbacks.

[Isilel]

On 10.3.2018 at 7:29 AM, galendo said:

I'll try to explain, since I'm one of those people who think that Eshonai's death was the biggest mistake in Oathbringer and that Jasnah's "death" was probably the biggest non-Shallan mistake in WoR.

I too very much regret Eshonai's death - I loved her character. I like Venli too, but IMHO what could have been done with Eshonai would have been more distinct from Dalinar's arc and more interesting. So, I completely disagree that scenes that happen with Venli in OB would have been better with Eshonai, because I see her potential plot and struggle as being significantly different from her sister's. But then, I am really fascinated by the idea of mind-control and how somebody so completely subjugated could find a way to fight back without being noticed, a tense cat-and-mouse game that would result from this, etc. Sanderson dipped his toes into this idea in his other work, but in a very abbreviated fashion and this could have been his chance to do more with it. In fact, in WoR Eshonai already started to do so subconsciously, with leaving her own division out of initial transformations, then assigning them to guard the refusniks, then coming up with a perfectly acceptable excuse not to pursue the lot of them when they escaped, etc.

Nor do I see any huge Shallan-related mistakes in WoR and while I am completely with you that Jasnah's fake-out was a major lapse*, I couldn't disagree more with this:

Quote

In the case of Szeth, I'll allow that there were probably narrative necessities and that the ultimate benefits may outweigh the cost.

IMHO, it was Szeth's contrived and awkward ressurection that completely cheapened death and necessitated Eshonai's demise. With either ending, it is ridiculous - shardblade burning away his brain being fixable - which, I understand, remains canon, or him being turned into mince-meat by the highstorm and shattered against the ground after a fall of many hundreds feet without even holding any stormlight ditto. Szeth's ressurection was a late-ish change to the narrative, per http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467:

Quote

Szeth originally died permanently in the end of Words of Radiance.

 and it continues to cause noticeable plot and characterization issues in my view. Also, we now have 3 out of 10 founding Radiants being mass-murderers, 2 of them former would-be tyrants - warlord versus mad scientist to distinguish between them, I guess. I loved Dalinar's arc, but that's too much and actually cheapens the theme of redemption, IMHO.  

Gawx was OK - he wasn't dead before Lift healed him, it didn't seem out of place at all to me.

Having said that, I never understood the whole Timbre - Eshonai theory, because it was obvious to me since WoR that Timbre was a Radiant spren and that foretelling from one of the Listener songs about them becoming surge-binders at long last was in the process of being fulfilled.

* I still don't understand why Jasnah didn't just soulcast her attackers into stuff or killed them with Ivoryblade instead of playing dead after they got the drop on her. She had more than enough stormlight to heal in her clothing and much more in easy reach. I understand that Sanderson wanted to get her out of the picture, but this train of events wasn't very plausible.

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Isilel

[WhiteLeeopard]

9 hours ago, galendo said:

Lots of people seem to disagree with me, and this is fine -- I'm glad that Venli works for you guys, even if she doesn't for me.  I really don't get what you guys see in her, since you obviously see something more than a poor Eshonai replacement, and no matter how I look at her, that's all I can see.  I see a character with less complexity than Eshonai, a character with less potential than Eshonai, a character given less development than Eshonai, who was shoe-horned into Eshonai's place.

Don't misunderstand me, I loved Eshonai and was always fond of her, and I either hated or was indifferent to Venli throughout the 3 books. And I still am. But at the end of the day Venli is in a much better position to earn gains for team Honor. I am taking this as an example of "Sometimes the character I love isn't the best character to do her job, and a character I care nothing for can be the difference between victory and defeat". At the least I think it will be interesting to read.

[Devout Pathian]

On 3/10/2018 at 1:29 AM, galendo said:

In exchange for this dubious and fairly transient gain, The Stormlight Archive was cemented as a "death is cheap" series, where the readers can't trust that a character is dead even after they've seen the body.

I don’t agree with your entire post, but I do agree that SA has waht you call “death is cheap.”  After reading Mistborn (where there is an important character that dies in all three books), I expect Sanderson to kill off important characters.  I don’t necessarily want those characters to die, but I do feel that a book like SA gains from those deaths if done right.  There are only two important characters whom I can think of who died: Eshonai and Elhokar.  However, Eshonai death’s wasn’t inpactful for me.  I was shocked she died.  I thought that for sure she lived at the end of WoR, but her death in OB felt final until Jasnah’s death. Elhokar’s death was impactful, but not because he died and was out of the story, but because Kaladin was watching his friends kill each other.  Wow that scene, I’m not sure how to describe it.

I believe Kaladin will die at the end of book 5.  It’s the best way for Sanderson to remove him as the major viewpoint character and it fits Kaladin’s personality where he tries to save everyone.  Some day it going to kill him.  That I hope is impactful.  Just saying I don’t want SA to have deaths all over the place, but I do feel that the books could use a few more permanent ones.

[galendo]

12 hours ago, RShara said:

I really liked Eshonai better than I do Venli, myself, but I don't think Eshonai was ever meant to survive.  From the way Brandon has phrased things, I get the feeling Eshonai was always slated to die and Venli always meant to be the relevant character.

I dunno, the characters seem way too interchangeable to me for that to be the case.  I'm not sure how Brandon's phrased things or whatever, but for every Venli scene, it's very easy to imagine a comparable scene with Eshonai as the viewpoint character.  Maybe not the one where they find Eshonai's corpse -- Eshonai can't find her own corpse, after all -- though I'd imagine being found by Venli and Ulim would work as well, if the scene were even necessary (no real need to find her corpse if she's not dead).

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

I too very much regret Eshonai's death - I loved her character. I like Venli too, but IMHO what could have been done with Eshonai would have been more distinct from Dalinar's arc and more interesting. So, I completely disagree that scenes that happen with Venli in OB would have been better with Eshonai, because I see her potential plot and struggle as being significantly different from her sister's.

You don't see them as both following the same path?  Both horrified by the destruction of their people?  Both wracked by guilt about their own contributions to the cause?  Both rebelling against Odium by keeping their history alive?  They seem like almost identically the same character, just with different backstories.  And I think Eshonai's backstory fits far better with the narrative.

Quote

IMHO, it was Szeth's contrived and awkward ressurection that completely cheapened death and necessitated Eshonai's demise. With either ending, it is ridiculous - shardblade burning away his brain being fixable - which, I understand, remains canon, or him being turned into mince-meat by the highstorm and shattered against the ground after a fall of many hundreds feet without even holding any stormlight ditto. Szeth's ressurection was a late-ish change to the narrative, per http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467:

Huh.  I had no idea that Szeth was a late narrative change.  In that case, I mostly agree with you -- Szeth's resurrection cheapened death even more so than Jasnah's.  But at least with Szeth, we get something out of it.  We get to bring Nightblood into the story and we get (potentially) an interesting character arc that we wouldn't have otherwise.  With Jasnah, we got...a semi-surprise appearance at the end of WoR.  These two things aren't comparable.

Quote

Gawx was OK - he wasn't dead before Lift healed him, it didn't seem out of place at all to me.

Gawx worked for a couple of reasons.  The fact that he could plausibly still be alive (or at least, very recently dead) when Lift healed him is a big one.  The other is that his death and resurrection happen in the same scene.  By itself, it wouldn't be significant at all.  It would just be a cool scene introducing a new Radiant and her two powers.  It's only when taken in conjunction with Szeth and Jasnah that it becomes at all troubling.

Quote

Having said that, I never understood the whole Timbre - Eshonai theory, because it was obvious to me since WoR that Timbre was a Radiant spren and that foretelling from one of the Listener songs about them becoming surge-binders at long last was in the process of being fulfilled.

Sure, that was obvious -- if you noticed and/or remembered the spren from WoR.  For most active people here, it probably goes without saying.  For a lot of people, who might not have read WoR for several years before Oathbringer, it mightn't be nearly as obvious.  Timbre plays only a very minor role in WoR.

The issue becomes even more murky when you learn that dead Parshendi can come back via Everstorm and join with their living descendants.  So now you've got a dead character (who died right around the time the Everstorm was overhead) and a mysterious spren hanging around her corpse, who then joins with that character's sister and...yeah, I see it.  If you consider Wit's story about Fleet to be more than fanciful, there's also the precedent of living people merging with spren/Investiture after they die.  So even someone who did remember Timbre could reasonably think that they'd merged into one.  It would give Timbre a reason to bond with Venli, too, which otherwise seems like something of a plot-hole.

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Don't misunderstand me, I loved Eshonai and was always fond of her, and I either hated or was indifferent to Venli throughout the 3 books. And I still am. But at the end of the day Venli is in a much better position to earn gains for team Honor. I am taking this as an example of "Sometimes the character I love isn't the best character to do her job, and a character I care nothing for can be the difference between victory and defeat". At the least I think it will be interesting to read.

You said something like this before, but I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.  Venli and Eshonai are basically the same.  High-ranking Parshendi in Odium's army?  Check.  Have knowledge of Parshendi culture from before the Everstorm?  Check.  Able to secretly convert huge swaths of Parsendi to their cause?  I actually think Eshonai would be better than Venli here, but whatever, check.

Basically, I don't see how Venli is adding anything at all to the story that Eshonai wouldn't have.