Second generation

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Given that the Second Generation was arguably the largest among the group of Kandra that didn't remove their spikes and the the group attempting to remove the Atium were only subdued and not killed, did the Second Generation survive the Catacendre? Would they have been punished by TenSoon in the reforming of Kandra society, possibly by the same cells they used to use, or would there be some sort of pardon? I didn't see anything definitive in the WoB or the annotations, and at this point am just looking for general opinions of everyone as to how things might have played out unless you have more concrete information. 

 

Quote

"The group of kandra tried to get past Demoux’s soldiers. However, the kandra weren’t particularly good warriors, and their weapons were made of metal. It took Elend and Demoux all of about two minutes to subdue the group, breaking their bones to keep them from healing and escaping."

HoA Chapter 80

 

[Shqueeves]

 I'm pretty sure that in Shadows of Self it is mentioned that all the kandra from the first and second generations chose to end their life

[Weltall]

Shadows of Self confirms that the Second Generation survived the Catacendre. TenSoon mentions to Wax that he and Paalm are among the oldest kandra "now that many of the Seconds have taken the escape of ending their own lives". By necessary implication they had to have survived to be able to later commit suicide and he says that many of the Second Generation have done so but not all of them, so there must be some still around.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Thanks, I'll go back and re-read that section.

[+robardin]

On 3/3/2018 at 1:02 PM, Weltall said:

Shadows of Self confirms that the Second Generation survived the Catacendre. TenSoon mentions to Wax that he and Paalm are among the oldest kandra "now that many of the Seconds have taken the escape of ending their own lives". By necessary implication they had to have survived to be able to later commit suicide and he says that many of the Second Generation have done so but not all of them, so there must be some still around.

Also note that he specifically talked about the Second Generation that way. Not the First. But elsewhere, MeLaan mentions the Third Generation as being the oldest among them.

I think something happened to the First Generation.

Perhaps - and this is a bit chilling to think of - they were restored to humanity, as unlike the other kandra they were originally human, as full Feruchemists... Who were over a thousand years old... Which would be almost immediately fatal... But a perfect candidate for Spook's program of harvesting the Metalborn on death's door for a hemalurgic spike.

Ten F-spikes, yeah, that would be pretty darn handy.

It sure would explain how "The Lord Ruler" ended up going to the Southern Hemisphere, able to create unkeyed metalminds, speaking of having ruled in the Northern Hemisphere. It was the Lord Mistborn with a large complement of F-spikes. It was Spook. With Kelsier stapled to him somehow, and who didn't die so much as "step down" after 100 years. That's 100 years that included discovering nicrosil, as well as the feruchemical use of aluminum (despite having no Feruchemists at hand for a while).

Not sure about how the scars on the arms in the coppermind coin's memory would fit in with that, though. Plus Brandon mentioned in the Afterword to Mistborn: Secret History how one could figure out "what Kelsier is up to" in the Era 2 books. "Is", not "was".

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by robardin

[Calderis]

@robardin I'm trying to find where it's from, but I distinctly remember that the Sovereign showed up in the south roughly 12 years after the catacendre. Spook reigned over the basin for 100 years. If the first number is correct, and I think even that number is to long a wait for the condition the southerners were in, I don't see how Spook could be in both places at once.

Additionally, I don't think that the first generation still live, but I think they chose to die as Kandra. The only way they could have become human again is if Harmony had changed them back... And considering his main view of letting things play out as they will, and his lie to Kel about the possibility of regaining a body, I don't think he'd be willing helping to do the things that Kel is doing. 

[+robardin]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

@robardin I'm trying to find where it's from, but I distinctly remember that the Sovereign showed up in the south roughly 12 years after the catacendre. Spook reigned over the basin for 100 years. If the first number is correct, and I think even that number is to long a wait for the condition the southerners were in, I don't see how Spook could be in both places at once.

Additionally, I don't think that the first generation still live, but I think they chose to die as Kandra. The only way they could have become human again is if Harmony had changed them back... And considering his main view of letting things play out as they will, and his lie to Kel about the possibility of regaining a body, I don't think he'd be willing helping to do the things that Kel is doing. 

Ah, that's true, the Southerners certainly looked like they'd been struggling for a long time to survive under their new, harsher (to them) conditions, but not one hundred years long.

On the other hand, it is clear the Sovereign must have had F-nicrosil and F-aluminum to make the Bands, which means either he started life as a full Feruchemist (of which Sazed was thought to be the last one at the end of HoA), or had hemalurgic spikes from Feruchemists/Ferrings for that metal... Which couldn't have been possible for quite a while after the Catacendre.

Nicrosil in particular was unknown in the Final Empire, and 12 years doesn't seem to be enough time (a) to discover the metal's existence, (b) to discover its Feruchemical use when there were no more Feruchemists (and at the very best, 12 year old Ferrings, and for an as yet unknown metal!), and then (c) to make hemalurgic spikes from those Feruchemists (I just don't see Spook or even Kelsier On A Mission spiking a child!).

There's also the possibility that they discovered existing leftover spikes for F-nicrosil and F-aluminum in the pile of Inquisitor spikes from The Place Formerly Known As Kredik Shaw, but not only would they be significantly weakened due to being out of a body/blood coated for so long, there seems to be no purpose for Ati/Ruin to have created spikes for those metals in his endgame in Hero of Ages.

 

 

 

[Isilel]

On 8.3.2018 at 3:05 PM, robardin said:

On the other hand, it is clear the Sovereign must have had F-nicrosil and F-aluminum to make the Bands, which means either he started life as a full Feruchemist (of which Sazed was thought to be the last one at the end of HoA), or had hemalurgic spikes from Feruchemists/Ferrings for that metal... Which couldn't have been possible for quite a while after the Catacendre.

"....when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" - there must be a way to _become_ a Feruchemist or a Ferring even if you aren't born to it and don't use hemalurgy. It is the only explanation for how the Sovereign could have been a Fullborn and for how he managed to provide SoScads with the Ferrings needed to produce the heat medallions, when there had never been any Ferrings among them before. Mist-snapping must have happened there also, but it only produced Mistings. Inquisitors wouldn't have had the necessary spikes, except for the very small chance of a couple of them having F-Brass, just in case. There were no living Feruchemists among the NoScads after the Catacendre, and IIRC none were born since then, only Ferrings.

So, even if Kelsier got his Feruchemy by some truly funky method, like getting hold of Ati's body and stapling his cognitive shadow to it, and maybe achieving the proper amount and balance of Ruin and Preservation investitures that way, he still needed to somehow change a number of SoScads into Ferrings. Yes, he might have sired tons of kids, but according to VenDell in BoM Nicrosil Feruchemy is particularly rare even among the northeners, so it is highly unlikely that he could have had enough of Soulbearer kids quickly enough to establish the heat medallion production line, leave alone all the other Ferrings that might be required for the process. Not to mention that the kids probably need to be 10 or so before they can can be relied upon to do their part consistently and without injuring themselves due to overstoring, etc. 

 

On 8.3.2018 at 3:05 PM, robardin said:

Nicrosil in particular was unknown in the Final Empire, and 12 years doesn't seem to be enough time (a) to discover the metal's existence, (b) to discover its Feruchemical use when there were no more Feruchemists

Well, Kelsier's tenure as Preservation probably gave him the knowledge of Nicrosil and all the other Allomantic/Feruchemical metals and their uses. But it is a good question where his initial supply of Nicrosil could have come from, as NoScads had their own problems and had no reason to prioritize the development of necessary technologies, mining, etc. SoScads also didn't seem sufficiently advanced to have it - if they had been they would have devised non-Feruchemic methods of coping with their sudden Ice Age and wouldn't have needed to be saved by a meddling sliver. So - did Harmony initially provide enough  Nicrosil  to get everything started and keep SoScads going until they learned to produce it on their own? Or what?