[OB] Underwhelming

[IronBars he/him]

@The One Who Connects

The point i was making, regards me always saying imo,in my opinion, it seems to me, and all over variations of that is if you look at the majority of the replies of those i mentioned only very seldomly do they use the same turn of phrase, now that makes what they say come across as a statement of fact not on opinion.

Now maybe you don't see that, but its how it seems to me.

If someone says something and the reply is well this this and that shows otherwise, thats not an differing opinion, thats someone saying in a round about indirect way, that your wrong.

Again maybe you don't see it that way, maybe alot of people don't but its how i read it, and considering its said to me i think its how comes across to me which matters ?

Its easy come along after the fact and link posts, in an attempt to make what i said seem like has no basis.

I can link alot of posts as well but i dont feel the need, 

[Calderis he/him]

@IronBars I try to use those phrases in places that we're discussing theories and mechanics and things... Because those have right and wrong answers.

The entire basis of this thread is sharing, and discussion of, opinions. I didn't feel that those phrases were necessary, because the topic itself is inherently opinion. There isn't a post in this thread that isn't. 

[Fourth Of The Night]

17 minutes ago, IronBars said:

The point i was making, regards me always saying imo,in my opinion, it seems to me, and all over variations of that is if you look at the majority of the replies of those i mentioned only very seldomly do they use the same turn of phrase, now that makes what they say come across as a statement of fact not on opinion.

Now maybe you don't see that, but its how it seems to me.

If someone says something and the reply is well this this and that shows otherwise, thats not an differing opinion, thats someone saying in a round about indirect way, that your wrong.

Again maybe you don't see it that way, maybe alot of people don't but its how i read it, and considering its said to me i think its how comes across to me which matters ?

Its easy come along after the fact and link posts, in an attempt to make what i said seem like has no basis.

I can link alot of posts as well but i dont feel the need, 

You literally in the first post say that one of your opinions "Nonetheless is true". Come on, man. You really need to look to your own posts before criticizing others.

[IronBars he/him]

4 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

You literally in the first post say that one of your opinions "Nonetheless is true". Come on, man. You really need to look to your own posts before criticizing others.

The very start at of that post starts with "i found"

Everything that follows on from that falls under that.

The example you mentioned there the obvious imo is inferred because of the reason above.

The entire post is obviously my opinion since it starts with "i found" putting imo everywhere wasnt really required.

[Fourth Of The Night]

Just now, IronBars said:

The very start at of that post starts with "i found"

Everything that follows on from that falls under that.

The example you mentioned there the obvious imo is inferred because of the reason above.

The entire post is obviously my opinion since it starts with "i found" putting imo everywhere wasnt really required.

That is absolutely not how it reads. When you write "People will disagree, but nonetheless this is true" means it goes from your opinion to fact. If you really were only speaking of your opinion, then the second statement is not only not needed, but it directly contradicts the tone of the post being your opinion. That is exactly the reason why I didn't touch the post, because that immediately made me angry and not want to talk to you about my own opinions of the book.

[IronBars he/him]

On 2/18/2018 at 1:13 PM, IronBars said:

I found this book to be underwhelming and a disapointment. Main reason being the book was mainly filler, (no doubt people will take exception to that point but nonetheless it is true.) There was little to none story progression, for 1233 page count book there was very little of the actual story told, mostly just filler material to bulk out the book.

@Fourth Of The Night

That is the portion you mean right ? The bit in between the brackets ? To me the imo was inferred and if you just mentioned that at the start i would of edited it to read imo at the end. 

To me it reads how i explained.

I changed it there since read to you, and most likely others different to how was intended.

Edited February 23, 2018 by IronBars

[Stormfather-in-Law]

35 minutes ago, IronBars said:

@The One Who Connects

The point i was making, regards me always saying imo,in my opinion, it seems to me, and all over variations of that is if you look at the majority of the replies of those i mentioned only very seldomly do they use the same turn of phrase, now that makes what they say come across as a statement of fact not on opinion.

Now maybe you don't see that, but its how it seems to me.

If someone says something and the reply is well this this and that shows otherwise, thats not an differing opinion, thats someone saying in a round about indirect way, that your wrong.

Again maybe you don't see it that way, maybe alot of people don't but its how i read it, and considering its said to me i think its how comes across to me which matters ?

Its easy come along after the fact and link posts, in an attempt to make what i said seem like has no basis.

I can link alot of posts as well but i dont feel the need, 

Yes. They are saying "You're wrong." And not in an indirect way: they are indeed disagreeing with you. And they are showing evidence. Instead of complaining, bring your own evidence and discuss. 

[IronBars he/him]

1 minute ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Yes. They are saying "You're wrong." And not in an indirect way: they are indeed disagreeing with you. And they are showing evidence. Instead of complaining, bring your own evidence and discuss. 

Ok for starters, someone disagreeing is fine, twice in this post i changed from my original post to agree with what someone else said.

So you missed the point.

Secondly, if someone reads something different than i do it doesnt make my opinion wrong. 

And no one "showed" evidence hence why i said what i did earlier, 

[Jofwu he/him]

Guys, I'm pretty sure we all agree opinions are subjective. I don't think anybody meant to imply otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong @IronBars, but I think the problem you had was with people stating an opinion and then not supporting that opinion? (or, to be fair to them perhaps I should say you didn't feel like they supported it) I agree that can be frustrating. If you want to have a discussion and say, "I think X because A, B and C," it's frustrating when someone else comes along and says, "Well those are silly reasons. I think Y." That doesn't add much to the discussion and can appear dismissive.

Granted, that sort of thing is just going to happen in this setting. I've done it before, I'm sure. It's not against some kind of rule or anything, it's just lazy.

Or sometimes a person posting simply isn't as clear as they thought they were. Maybe they thought their logic was more apparent than it was.

Where was the discussion at before all of this...?

[IronBars he/him]

At this point i don't think it matters can probably lock this thread as most people seemed to of been scared off by now anyway haha, thanks to everyone for the upvotes (be they pitying ones or otherwise lol) 

Have a good weekend all 

Edited February 23, 2018 by IronBars

[Walkerxes]

In the end, threads like this are tough, as it's ALL opinion. Even with backing evidence, it's really just saying "I liked it, and here's examples why", or "I didn't like it and here's examples why"... Most of the time the "evidence" we present isn't going to change someone else's mind, they'll simply go find evidence that backs their opinion. And since it IS opinion, the very evidence one might give for liking it (specific character scenarios, scenes they liked, certain character focus, etc) might be the exact thing that someone else disliked about it. Still, some opinions were brought up that were interesting to see discussed, and for me personally, made me look at some things in a different way.

However, every time I see this thread, I can't help but get the song Underwhelmed, by Sloan stuck in my head (She was underwhelmed, if that's a word. I know it's not 'cause I looked it up. It's one of the skills I learned in my schooooollll, when I was youuuunnnggg).

[RShara she/her]

30 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

In the end, threads like this are tough, as it's ALL opinion. Even with backing evidence, it's really just saying "I liked it, and here's examples why", or "I didn't like it and here's examples why"... Most of the time the "evidence" we present isn't going to change someone else's mind, they'll simply go find evidence that backs their opinion. And since it IS opinion, the very evidence one might give for liking it (specific character scenarios, scenes they liked, certain character focus, etc) might be the exact thing that someone else disliked about it. Still, some opinions were brought up that were interesting to see discussed, and for me personally, made me look at some things in a different way.

However, every time I see this thread, I can't help but get the song Underwhelmed, by Sloan stuck in my head (She was underwhelmed, if that's a word. I know it's not 'cause I looked it up. It's one of the skills I learned in my schooooollll, when I was youuuunnnggg).

Agreed.  And that's why I wasn't wanting to get involved.  I am very opinionated, and will probably go to some lengths to try and prove or validate my opinion as "right."  So I figured it would be best for all involved if I....didn't do that this time.  C'est la vie.

[SallyA she/her]

On 2/18/2018 at 6:13 AM, IronBars said:

Szeth

Swearing the 3rd ideal of the skybreakers to follow dalinar when he doesnt know him is also rather odd, found this part to not make a great deal of sense.

It seems to me that when Szeth attacked The Blackthorn, and Dalinar was looking like the next kill, he turned it around with the Last Catch manover, and then Kaladin took the fight outside, showed Szeth he was a Surgebinder, inadvertently, thus disproving the people who branded Szeth Truthless in the first place (!!!) ... and Kaladin healed a shard wound, and beat Szeth in the battle over the Highstorm.

It seems to me that Szeth got several object lessons in the true nature of the world in that encounter, and more truth than from any of his previous associates, except, perhaps, his babsk.  And he is actually worried about the mindset of his master.

I think the encounter with Dalinar & Kaladin was a serious eye opener for Szeth who then was reborn without losing his memories!  So, makes good sense to me.

[Inquisitor #5]

So, I'm a bit late to the party and apologise if posting now is seen as bad form.

Having skimmed the thread in full I'd still like to make my own arguments regarding some of the points raised in the OP.

Oh, and full disclosure, Dalinar is literally my favourite character in the entire Stormlight Archive.

So, in somewhat coherent order:

Dalinar:

You claim, repeatedly, that who Dalinar has been for the past two books has been a lie/fabrication/what-have-you, I disagree. While his getting into the situation where he became that man was magically assisted the same man would presumably have come out of who he was, all other things being equal, if he'd have naturally suppressed his memories related to the trauma rather than having it done for him. I also get the impression that you interpret Cultivation's touch to have imposed the Dalinar we know on top of the bloodthirsty Blackthorn, whereas I see it as just certain memories being suppressed and Dalinar choosing to walk the path toward the man he became to try to honour his brother and his brother's legacy. As for your claim that the reason he sought out the Nightwatcher was weak, he was a man so wracked with guilt and so traumatised by it that he could barely function. Tying into my previous point, his memories being suppressed just served to make him able to function and pull himself together, becoming the man we know. Also, his entire character arc in OB revolved around him actually being Dalinar and not the Blackthorn.

I also want to make a point about Alethi culture and some assumptions you seem to be making, you may have noticed that Alethi culture is severely dysfunctional, being a warrior and fighting is seen as the highest of callings and the Blackthorn to us might seem a horrible, bloodthirsty butcher, but the Alethi don't see him that way, he was basically the perfect Alethi man on the battlefield. Just look at all the lines about Dalinar having gone soft, Adoling thinking that it would be glorious to fight alongside the Blackthorn! It's a ridiculously martial society where nothing the Blackthorn did, except the burning of Rathalas and the sparing of the child (which should really really you something), would be perceived as WRONG!

You also seem to make the assumption that a prerequisite for being Radiant is to be a somewhat moral person and I'm not sure why you'd think that. I assume that each order has one or a few fairly wide criteria for attracting their kind of spren and I'd assume that the Bondsmith criterion would be something along the lines of "one who unites" which Dalinar did with (literal) brutal effectiveness back when he was the Blackthorn.

Another thing you seem to assume is that people don't already know who Dalinar used to be, sure not everyone would know all the details but the only people that Dalinar's past was news to was the readers (and partly Dalinar himself, but even then it was just the memories concerning Evi and Rathalas.) Adding to this, it's not like Dalinar would go around giving everyone a detailed account of his life, which would negate the problems you propose should arise with Dalinar and Kaladin/Szeth.

I'm also not sure why you seem so intent on judging Dalinar solely for his past and being unwilling to forgive the better man he's become.

Szeth:

His swearing his third Ideal to follow Dalinar could be said to have been sworn to the ideal of Dalinar, Szeth interprets Dalinar, by fame, reputation, fact that Taravangian wanted him dead possibly, to be a man worth following.

Renarin:

Renarin healed people, Renarin discovered the gem archive, Renarin fought in the battle of Thaylen Field, Renarin saved Adolin's life. Also, I think calling Glys bad is incorrect, but the future will tell on that one.

Jasnah:

Jasnah's power level seems to be a question of experience plus pragmatism plus the fact that soulcasting got way easier immediately following Dalinar's pulling the Realms together.

I would like to know what signs you picked up that made humanity being the real Voidbringers so obvious to you, sorry if you already addressed this, if so I've missed it.

I do agree with you on Lift and partly on Moash.

I also have my own criticisms of the book, I feel like it wasn't as tightly plotted as the other two for one.

 

 

¤_¤

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Interesting opinion, but I'll politely disagree 

I wouldn't say Oathbringer is the book I expected, as I can come up with any and all expectations I want when it comes to Brandon's writing and he'll still throw several curve balls and sucker punches from nowhere. So I just kinda step back and just ride the story wherever it goes. It was the book I wanted though.

I do find it interesting that people think this the story should be primarily Kaladin focused (whether through personal identification or whatever other method) when clearly he is just a small part (as everyone else is) in this grand epic fantasy (but I guess that's what AU fanfic is for maybe).

I do understand the part about humans = voidbringers bit, however my disappointment mainly comes knowing prior to the reveal via WoBs. In-book, I completely understand and empathise with the humans and Radiants in regards to their decision regarding the Recreance. To the casual or un-Initiated fan, this would be pretty mind-blowing (and I have seen a fair few posters say they had no idea).

[Rogueshar]

I would definitely not say that this book was underwhelming. I tried not to go in with too many expectations to be honest, I really wanted to see Vivianne again which I was delightedly excited that she played such a major role in the Kolinar part of the book. I loved the Hearthstone part, especially when Kaladin punched Roshone, that was great for me, and I was really excited that he had a little brother again, and I found that the Parsh were not what I expected but loved the twist. It made so much sense. I haven't read the book since November, I want to but I'm in the middle of school and reading Wheel of Time (I would like to finish it for once), so this is what has stuck with me since then. I found the Voidbringer reveal to be a huge twist even though I was in the Ashlyn is the Tranquieline Halls camp prior to OB coming out. There were parts though that I was as fond of, Shallen's many different personas was one of them, while I love her as a character I wasn't fond of Veil or Radiant though I understood somewhat why they were necessary. I also was a bit taken back by how fast everyone just accepted Szeth, but I think I can get over that in the grand scheme of things. OB wasn't what I was expecting, and as many people have brought up the common themes with Last Jedi, it was about failure in some sense. Nobody likes failure, and when we have stories that are in a sense about failure they become divisive, but I think they are necessary. 

[IronBars he/him]

On 3/7/2018 at 2:49 AM, SallyA said:

It seems to me that when Szeth attacked The Blackthorn, and Dalinar was looking like the next kill, he turned it around with the Last Catch manover, and then Kaladin took the fight outside, showed Szeth he was a Surgebinder, inadvertently, thus disproving the people who branded Szeth Truthless in the first place (!!!) ... and Kaladin healed a shard wound, and beat Szeth in the battle over the Highstorm.

It seems to me that Szeth got several object lessons in the true nature of the world in that encounter, and more truth than from any of his previous associates, except, perhaps, his babsk.  And he is actually worried about the mindset of his master.

I think the encounter with Dalinar & Kaladin was a serious eye opener for Szeth who then was reborn without losing his memories!  So, makes good sense to me.

To me Szeth swearing to dalinar just didnt make sense, i don't personnally think the reason you gave there is a stong enough reason for Szeth to swear to dalinar, but i guess its pretty subjective.

@Inquisitor #5 from what we see of Dalinar in the flash backs its clearly evident in my opinion that there was no chance of Dalinar becoming who he is in WoK/WoR without the intervention of the nightwatcher, he was being groomed as odiums champion, the intervention of the nightwatcher changed Dalinar to the extent he was able to become a totally different person. The nightwatcher didn't just take his memories of his wife or rathalas, she surpressed everything about who he was, everything that made him, him, at that point was fundamentally changed, 

I don't assume being honourable is a prerequiste of becoming a radiant. Being honourable is however a prerequiste of bonding the stormfather, who Dalinar eventually bonds, this again wouldnt of happened only for the nightwatchers intervention.

People don't know why he burned rathalas, Dalinar and Sadeas lied as to the reason for it, Kaladin should not be able to be ok with that given he is a windrunner and same applies for Szeth.

He only became the man he is because of outside forces not through any personal growth as a person, thats why you can't excuse his past in my opinion. He is probably at this point the most underserving radiant we have because he is only a radiant because the nightwatcher changed who he was.

Szeth - i just don't think it makes sense for him to swear to Dalinar, i don't think anything could make me see that as making sense at this point. 

In WoR, in book 2 i think it is, at the start of the chapters there is stanzas from the listeners songs which make it evident that humans were the voidbringers in my opinion, 

@ParadoxicalZen i don't think kaladin should be the main focus of the series, just that in OB he was more of a side note than anything else.

@Rogueshar my main issue with OB was there was very little progression, for the length of the book nothing much happened, book could of been halved and same story told, for the size of the volume it was just disappointing in my opinion

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by IronBars

[Inquisitor #5]

@IronBars

I see, it seems we interpret the visit to the Nightwatcher and Cultivation's "pruning" of Dalinar fundamentally differently, also possibly Dalinar's character.

I see a man who wishes to, for whatever reason, set out on the path that eventually leads to the Dalinar of the present day, yet isn't strong enough to do so because of the trauma weighing him down and therefore what Cultivation does is block out that trauma, allowing him the strength to walk that path.

There's also this quote:

Quote

But why him? Dalinar wasn't a philosopher or idealist. He was a soldier. And—if he admitted the truth—in earlier years, he'd been a tyrant and a warmonger. Could twilight years spent pretending to follow the precepts of better men erase a lifetime of butchery?

— The Way of Kings, TOR Hardcover, page 416

Dalinar still remembers (most of) his past and I personally read his change as a desire to honour the memory of his brother. His meeting with Cultivation didn't, in my opinion, turn him into a fundamentally different person, just a person capable of walking in the direction he wished to.

 

I conclude that I vehemently disagree with you but I will try to stay civil and reasoned in this discussion, I know myself to both like arguing against and being personally dismissive of, theories and opinions I don't agree with and if you check my most recent contributions to the forums you may find that I like kicking hornets' nests.

I do hope that you'll enjoy the next entry in the Stormlight Archive though, even if it doesn't go in a direction you expect or want.

 

¤_¤

[SallyA she/her]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I do hope that you'll enjoy the next entry in the Stormlight Archive though, even if it doesn't go in a direction you expect or want.

Seriously, which ever path Brandon takes it down, it will be good!

[hotrod71nova]

Iron bars, man you nailed that down totally. I started making excuses for the book shortly after I read it. Saying well the book had a very poor plot, plot devices, story arcs etc and I would say it was ok becuase he had to enter to much secret info in it to keep us pleased. It was more like a dictionary than a story. Anyway I had the same fears you did of getting skewered on here. But your right, that 3rd book is weak. I bought several copies and gave them to my real life friends and not a single one likes this book. Book 1 and 2 are in my top books and I rate them very high. I've also read everything else that he has written and for me, OB is his worst book yet. Everyone of my friends pretty much has thoughts that mirror your thoughts aswell. I also expect Brandon to be human and not perfect. He's gonna a have a few weak books in this series. Almost all writers do. What I'm hoping is that he can right the ship before too many novels go by. Kinda like Robert Jordan (until he passed away  and I think everyone pretty much agrees the books in the middle of the saga WOT are weak). Anyway thanks for your opinion, and I want you to know your not alone, there are many of us that weren't happy W the book. He' just too good of a writer for this to become commonplace. Here's to hoping book 4 doesn' suck balls. 

[IronBars he/him]

@Inquisitor #5 

I don't think dalinar was pruned, as you put it, an entire part of who he was, was taken away/ blocked, which is the only reason he is how he is in WoK, WoR, 

Its not like he was guided toward what he became, overcoming the parts of his past which troubled him, it was erased from his mind, completly, the nightwatcher changed him fundamentally, not slightly.

There was no chance of Dalinar becoming who he is in WoK/WoR, without the nightwatcher, there was no chance of Dalinar bonding the stormfather with out the nightwatchers intervention, if i recall it was his brother originally being sent the visions by the stormfather as well, and the nightwatchers intervention actually made Dalinar into that person, he didnt become that person, he was moulded into to that person by outside forces.

 

@hotrod71nova  thanks for that, i actually think there's more people out there who found the book fell flat then loved it at this point, i have also read all brandons other books set within the cosmere, and like you i thought WoK and WoR were great, but i agree that baring maybe Elantris which wasn't that good, OB is definetly his weakest book imo.

Book is just too big and too little happens.

 

[Calderis he/him]

12 hours ago, IronBars said:

don't think dalinar was pruned, as you put it, an entire part of who he was, was taken away/ blocked, which is the only reason he is how he is in WoK, WoR, 

Its not like he was guided toward what he became, overcoming the parts of his past which troubled him, it was erased from his mind, completly, the nightwatcher changed him fundamentally, not slightly.

That's what "pruning" is though. The complete removal of unwanted branches. 

The only difference between actual pruning and what was done to Dalinar, is his branch came back after the tree had grown to a point it wasn't wanted any longer. 

[IronBars he/him]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's what "pruning" is though. The complete removal of unwanted branches. 

The only difference between actual pruning and what was done to Dalinar, is his branch came back after the tree had grown to a point it wasn't wanted any longer. 

Ya, but pruning suggests little changes were made to guide growth in a certain direction.

This isn't the case with Dalinar, he wasn't guided to become who he was in WoK/WoR, he was remade to be the person in WoK,WoR, that is a very different thing to "pruning" imo.

Reforged would be a better word then "pruned" and more accurate, because everything that made him, him at that point was taken away, he was made an entirely different person, not just a slightly better person, not a much better person, an entirely different person. 

Like a blade with to many impurities in it, gets melted down and reforged into something entirely new/different.

[XenosHg]

On 15.03.2018 at 5:14 AM, hotrod71nova said:

Kinda like Robert Jordan (until he passed away  and I think everyone pretty much agrees the books in the middle of the saga WOT are weak).

 General consensus I've seen so far, including my expericence up to book 7 is: The first several books are not great at all, being stereotypical fantasy with bad characters, then it gets more experimental so the quality drops, then author gets very ill and it really shows, and then he died and B.Sanderson didn't do his books justice.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 hour ago, XenosHg said:

The first several books are not great at all, being stereotypical fantasy with bad characters,

Be fair now: Mat and Lan are pretty cool.