Josiah Bills Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Apologies if this is the wrong forum, but I have a theory as to what the fourth oath of the windrunners is, based off of information in the past two books. I came up with this theory by completing the pattern (bah-duh-tss). Each of the past two books has shown and dealt with one of Kaladin's many, Many, MANY issues. Book one dealt with how he was unable to protect anyone, and the second oath matched that: "I will protect those who can not protect themselves." The second book dealt with his difficulties wanting to protect those he hated, and his desire for vengeance. His oath again matches this: "I will protect even those I do not like, so long as it is right." Now, assuming that this pattern continues, what issues does he have for book three? I can think of two off the top of my head. There is his tendency to put the responsibility for his own issues on to others, while taking personal responsibility for everything (and I do mean everything) else. Then, there are his moral issues with killing to protect. Now, think about the end of book two, and who it is implied that Kaladin will soon meet. Who was it who said to Kaladin that you can not stop a storm by blowing harder? Right, his father, the man he is going to try and rescue in book three. If the pattern continues, and if I am correct then that means that the next oath of the windrunners has to do with when Kaladin will be allowed to kill. Perhaps it will be something like: "I will kill only when there is no other way of protecting." What do you think of my reasoning? Does it at least sound like I could be right? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 It's a possibility. Though I wonder if it's not time for him to start dealing with this leadership issues... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomR Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 It's a possibility. Though I wonder if it's not time for him to start dealing with this leadership issues... Yes, if Hearthstone's going to have a chance, the leadership side of Kaladin may need to come out. Plus, Elhokar asking for instruction in leadership seemed like a giant clue-bat. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I do not think the fourth oath has to do with protecting. The properties of the Windrunners are protecting and leading. I think the latter two oaths have to do with leading. We know that squires are an important feature of Windrunners, and think many of his future powers are going to be squire-related. Hence leading. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Yea, when I read about that I expected his next Ideal to be something about leading those need leading, or accepting the burden of leadership even if he thinks himself unworthy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I think Kal will deal with leadership when his squires appear (I believe Lopen is now one). But I don't think it will be his next oath, though. I think Josiah is right and will be some way for Kal to resolve his issues with either killing to protect or taking too much responsibility and blame. Which is actually a leadership issue, so I just started contradicting with myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 A very likely possibility. Although, personaly I think it will be connected to his responsibility to and command over his squires or people in general vs. their free will and personal life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonelymagician Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) Yea, when I read about that I expected his next Ideal to be something about leading those need leading, or accepting the burden of leadership even if he thinks himself unworthy. i like it. And, it fits with the squire idea. I don't know if that ability is relegated to those that share the leadership surge, but I think Kaladin's next big ability burst will be along leadership lines, maybe extending to followers. Edited March 8, 2014 by lonelymagician 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'd say the next Ideal will be about when to let go. One of the background issues in WoR which isn't addressed is Kaladin struggling with the concept that he should protect his men, yet allowing them to put themselves at risk to protect other people. This fits in nicely with 'leading' aspect, I think. For example, Kaladin might be forced to let someone else make a sacrifice to protect other people. He's got defending the helpless down pat; the next step is letting those who aren't helpless risk themselves to protect other people. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seerow Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'd say the next Ideal will be about when to let go. One of the background issues in WoR which isn't addressed is Kaladin struggling with the concept that he should protect his men, yet allowing them to put themselves at risk to protect other people. This fits in nicely with 'leading' aspect, I think. For example, Kaladin might be forced to let someone else make a sacrifice to protect other people. He's got defending the helpless down pat; the next step is letting those who aren't helpless risk themselves to protect other people. I agree with this. It's the biggest hangup Kaladin has left, and I am sure that one of the last two oaths will force him to come to terms with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamma Fiend Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Agreed. Kaladin taking all the burden of responsibility and guilt on himself. His next oaths should hopefully help him come to terms with that. Can't wait to see how the Roshone arc turns out.*Kaladin arrives in town in blazing, stormlight-glowy fashion.**Tarah's all like, "erhh mah storms! you have blue eyes!"**Kaladin says, "Ew."* 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah Bills Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) I'd say the next Ideal will be about when to let go. One of the background issues in WoR which isn't addressed is Kaladin struggling with the concept that he should protect his men, yet allowing them to put themselves at risk to protect other people. This fits in nicely with 'leading' aspect, I think. For example, Kaladin might be forced to let someone else make a sacrifice to protect other people. He's got defending the helpless down pat; the next step is letting those who aren't helpless risk themselves to protect other people. I can see two major issues which Kaladin has left to confront. You're right about letting go, and I mentioned those issues with taking too much responsibility above. It just seems so convenient that Kal is about to meet with the person who led him to one those two major hangups. A perfect opportunity to confront it is approaching, even if it is not part of the oaths. Edited March 8, 2014 by Josiah Bills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaconis Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I agree with general feelings of people above re: Kaladin's final two Ideals. Let me first say that I love the glorious scenes that come about as a result of these self-realization moments (him speaking the Ideala). That being said, I sincerely hope he doesn't pull more crap like he did in WoR to get there, making horrible decisions to the point of losing Syl (and taking entire books to get there!). I don't think he will; his issue in WoR in particular was one that, while I didn't like it, had to happen and happen the way that it did. He had to make the mistake and realize it for what it was before he could let go of his hatred. I don't think he'll lose Syl again, both because it doesn't make as much sense for these supposed oaths and because Sanderson likely won't to repeat plot lines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinintendo Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) I was wondering, if Kaladin gets new powers every Ideal he speak up, and we know he got more of them in store for the future, How come he's they only one with so many limitations out of all the orders we met so far. Are some orders more powerful than others? more ideals = harder to keep bond= stronger powers? like the bondsmiths 3 people the max = more power among the members. Edited March 9, 2014 by shinintendo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conn Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I like the idea of letting go. He still feels that he should be able to protect everyone. That feeling could be amplified with new powers and the responsibility of being a KR. It'd be great if he could find it without all the self-doubt that has plagued him in the first two books. Something different would be refreshing. His issues with Roshone could be related to what he almost did with the king. Since he realized that he has to protect even those he hates, then that would include Roshone...though more difficult. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneeker1988 Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I believe it will be along the lines of leading people into danger and accepting not being able to save everyone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 After reading through the thread I am convinced that his next story arc will be about knowing when to 'let go'. What was it Lirin says? "Care, but know when to let go." or something to that effect. Personally I hope that Kaladin doesn't keep going at one oath a book, it would be interesting to see what would happen if he manages to say BOTH of the two remaining windrunner ideals in the same book. Heck even at the same time. I don't think this has much chance of happening at all, but it would certainly be cool (in terms of action) if it did. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adunsavior Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 After reading through the thread I am convinced that his next story arc will be about knowing when to 'let go'. What was it Lirin says? "Care, but know when to let go." or something to that effect. Personally I hope that Kaladin doesn't keep going at one oath a book, it would be interesting to see what would happen if he manages to say BOTH of the two remaining windrunner ideals in the same book. Heck even at the same time. I don't think this has much chance of happening at all, but it would certainly be cool (in terms of action) if it did. After reading the thread, I got a bad feeling it is Lirin that Kaladin has to let go of. It would make a profound and heart wrenching scene, making it more likely for Brandon to make it happen 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snote Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think, if OP is correct and I feel he might be, in the journey Brandon is taking Kaladin on. That it might be important for him to be around his parents to learn the next oath. As in something like, "I will protect all lives without distinction. I will not show favor to those I love."If so, it needs to come fourth. It's a hard lesson to learn but a vital one perhaps. Soldiers are taught that all the time. Imagine you're a National Guard member and there is a huge viral outbreak. You're holding down the quarantine line and your sister comes and begs you to let her and her son through. Every emotional part of you is dying to let that happen but the very nation might suffer for it. How can you survive with yourself either way? Severing those ties might be important.Kaladin, now the only known KR with his level of military experience/fighting ability/power has just abandoned his liege, men, friends, and principles all to fly halfway around the world to check up on his parents. Emotionally, it's absolutely the right thing to do. Duty wise, even with permission from Dalinar, it was wrong. His duty was to stay and guard those who came to Urithiru. So, he should, at some point, have to make that oath. To dedicate himself to the needs of the many over the needs of the few. No matter their relationship. I could never do it but he can. (Not just because he's fictional but because it's the character that's written.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Good job overstraining our Lifeless budget. The thread was only 16 months and 4 days old. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 How much Breath does it take to Awaken a 16 month old corpse, anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 How much Breath does it take to Awaken a 16 month old corpse, anyway? A corpse that is 16 months old, or the corpse of a 16 month old? Or both? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Keep giving it Breath, keep making it move, till there are only drabs left... EDIT: But, to be fair, this thread IS about matters that are still relevant. Edited July 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 I think, if OP is correct and I feel he might be, in the journey Brandon is taking Kaladin on. That it might be important for him to be around his parents to learn the next oath. As in something like, "I will protect all lives without distinction. I will not show favor to those I love." If so, it needs to come fourth. It's a hard lesson to learn but a vital one perhaps. Soldiers are taught that all the time. Imagine you're a National Guard member and there is a huge viral outbreak. You're holding down the quarantine line and your sister comes and begs you to let her and her son through. Every emotional part of you is dying to let that happen but the very nation might suffer for it. How can you survive with yourself either way? Severing those ties might be important. Kaladin, now the only known KR with his level of military experience/fighting ability/power has just abandoned his liege, men, friends, and principles all to fly halfway around the world to check up on his parents. Emotionally, it's absolutely the right thing to do. Duty wise, even with permission from Dalinar, it was wrong. His duty was to stay and guard those who came to Urithiru. So, he should, at some point, have to make that oath. To dedicate himself to the needs of the many over the needs of the few. No matter their relationship. I could never do it but he can. (Not just because he's fictional but because it's the character that's written.) I disagree about the points of needs of the many/ needs of the few part. It would not go very good along with the first ideal. The Almighty cares more about how people lived and less, what they achieved. So it would be the right thing to protect a few people who cannot protect themselves, and not to protect the larger group, which is well-armed and trained, even if in the end it will result in more deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) "So the Night will reign, for the choice of honor is life." Honor as seen in the cosmere definitely never seems like it coincided with majority benefit. If a windrunner promises to protect someone they'd make enemies of the whole world to do so until the bitter end, even if the person by all logic should just die. In Kaladin's case he does actually have a duty he just abandoned, but if that's a problem for his oaths at all it would be because he had already taken on the responsibility of doing it before ditching it, not because it would benefit anyone. On the other hand, his hometown was a pretty terrible place to be even before, and now they have an Everstorm on the way. They're defenseless, and after failing Tien he has every right to go (he has permission for leave anyway). Of course, in light of his previous oath he'll have to save Roshone too. Minor details Edited August 2, 2015 by natc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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