Adolin radiant or NOT? (SPOILER WOR)

[Ailessar]

It wouldn't be acceptable to Windrunners. However, Shallan poisoned her father, and as The Silver Queen said, Jasnah hired assassins. Even within the theme of journey before destination, I expect we'll see a wide range of ideas about ethical action. When it comes to the spren, well, not all spren are honorspren.

 

There was also that philosophical “lesson” in which Jasnah took Shallan out and deliberately baited murderers into a dark alley, where Jasnah killed the four men.  I remember being a bit awed that Jasnah came really close to being a vigilante, a philosophical choice she made in the use of her powers. 

 

 

The difference between her reasons for killing those men and Adolin killing Sadeas is motive.  Arguably, Jasnah was doing it to prevent more deaths, although there was a hint that she may have had an experience that traumatized her that could imply that some revenge was involved.  Whereas Adolin murdered Sadeas out of rage.  So it comes down to the killer’s motives for Odium’s purposes, whether it was a cold choice to serve the better good or to give in to lack of control and hate. 

 

 

So you’re right,  the lines can blur quite a bit within the KR Orders, which can certainly cause conflict among them.

[shadewolf]

It wouldn't be acceptable to Windrunners. However, Shallan poisoned her father, and as The Silver Queen said, Jasnah hired assassins. Even within the theme of journey before destination, I expect we'll see a wide range of ideas about ethical action. When it comes to the spren, well, not all spren are honorspren.

 

In alot of ways adolin killing sedeas parallels shallan killing her father. Adolin snapped after his attempt to reconcile with Sedeas was refused, he realized he couldn't change the man and something had to be done. Shallan tried to keep her family together, when that didn't work she tried to protect her family by telling them to leave, when even that didn't work she murdered her father.

 

There was also that philosophical “lesson” in which Jasnah took Shallan out and deliberately baited murderers into a dark alley, where Jasnah killed the four men.  I remember being a bit awed that Jasnah came really close to being a vigilante, a philosophical choice she made in the use of her powers. 

 

 

The difference between her reasons for killing those men and Adolin killing Sadeas is motive.  Arguably, Jasnah was doing it to prevent more deaths, although there was a hint that she may have had an experience that traumatized her that could imply that some revenge was involved.  Whereas Adolin murdered Sadeas out of rage.  So it comes down to the killer’s motives for Odium’s purposes, whether it was a cold choice to serve the better good or to give in to lack of control and hate. 

 

 

So you’re right,  the lines can blur quite a bit within the KR Orders, which can certainly cause conflict among them.

 

Yup, I mean there has to be a huge reason why the crytics and honerspren don't get along.

[Chrono]

I was honestly shocked at what Adolin did. He didn't really kill Sadeas in cold blood, he did it in a rage, so... hot blood, I guess? Anyway, any other example of killing like that in the series has been done with a decent amount of calm and planning. Shallan did not just suddenly lose it and hack at her father with her Shardblade. She poisoned him, then strangled him calmly. In essence, it was like she knew what had to be done and did it anyway. Jasnah did not "just" go into the alleyway to kill the footpads. She planned to do it from the start. Nalan planned to kill Ym and Lift, even though Ym was the only one who died.

 

To some spren, planning to kill like that is okay, notably with Shallan and Jasnah (Syl is obviously an exception). Pattern and Ivory certainly haven't seemed to object. But I just don't think that Adolin is going to get a spren anytime soon. He's on shaky ground here, trying to become better than what he was. Going off like that is not only not honorable, it's frankly dangerous and illogical. If he was logical and thoughtful, like Shallan and Jasnah, he would have either found another way, or he would have planned to kill Sadeas from the start.

 

He could, however, become a Skybreaker. However, I'm wary about this choice, because it didn't seem very just, what Adolin did. He didn't remove Sadeas because he was threatening lives, he killed him because he was very, very angry at him. That doesn't seem like justice to me. Food for thought, though.

 

However, this could lead to Adolin's soul being cracked. Dealing with the guilt over having gone off like that can warp people. Really, it all depends on whether Adolin feels bad enough about it to try and change, or if he reasons that it was the right thing to do and that he is justified. 

 

Edit: Grammar

Edit 2: Added in some stuff about Skybreakers.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Chrono

[Moogle]

I would like to chime in and note that if Adolin killing Sadeas means he'll never be a Radiant, I hope Adolin never becomes a Radiant. Sadeas was just going to harm more and more people. Killing him seems to me like an excellent idea.

 

That said, Adolin being 'enraged' while he kills is pretty darn good evidence that he's not Radiant material. Still... I'm giving Szeth 50/50 odds of becoming a Skybreaker, so I may as well extend Adolin the same courtesy.

 

 

“I told him something he didn’t want to hear,” Kaladin said. “Even if he does look into it, he’ll find plenty of reasons to dismiss what I said. In the end, it will be my word against Amaram’s. Stormfather! I shouldn’t have said anything.”

“You’d let it go, then?”

“Storms, no,” Kaladin said. “I’d find my own justice.”
“Oh  .  .  .” Syl settled on his shoulder.

They walked for a long while, eventually approaching the warcamp.

“You’re not a Skybreaker, Kaladin,” Syl finally said. “You’re not supposed to be like this.”

 

Dalinar had previously refused to deal with Sadeas. So... Adolin found his own justice. I could go either way on the matter.

[Djerf]

 I imagine she found ways to kill the other ghostbloods that didn't break the first ideal of the knights radiant. Which seems to me, in most cases, to not allow outright murder.

 

There was also that philosophical “lesson” in which Jasnah took Shallan out and deliberately baited murderers into a dark alley, where Jasnah killed the four men.  I remember being a bit awed that Jasnah came really close to being a vigilante, a philosophical choice she made in the use of her powers. 

 

 

The difference between her reasons for killing those men and Adolin killing Sadeas is motive.  Arguably, Jasnah was doing it to prevent more deaths, although there was a hint that she may have had an experience that traumatized her that could imply that some revenge was involved.  Whereas Adolin murdered Sadeas out of rage.  So it comes down to the killer’s motives for Odium’s purposes, whether it was a cold choice to serve the better good or to give in to lack of control and hate. 

 

 

So you’re right,  the lines can blur quite a bit within the KR Orders, which can certainly cause conflict among them.

 

Jasnah's actions.

First off, we have indication that she has strong personal feelings concerning that type of men.

Secondly, she planned and went thru with an execution of four men.

 

She could have acted differently, she could have gone alone and apprehended them or scarred them away. When she came back she could have been outraged and in that way given the king the political pull he needed to make an investigation into these crimes and perhaps into the eventual corruption that allowed the rapes/robberys/killings to proceed, this would have produced far more good. Instead she choose to kill defenseless men. Ammaram at least had good reasons to do what he did, Jasnah did it for her own personal pleasure.

 

 

 

[Argent]

I don't know if I'll call it pleasure... She was removing four criminals from the streets of Kharbranth, and she has had some bad experience with at least one man in the past. Some even speculate she was raped, though I think that's going a little too far. So she had her reasons.

[Aleksiel]

As Jasnah said, she didn't made them do anything. They could have let her walk pass them and there is no prove she would have still killed them if unprovoked.

[flinn]

Kaladin didn't kill Szeth in self-defense. He chased after him, over and over, until he killed him. Of course he was resurrected but that is beside the point. If you say it was in defense of Dalinar and family (who were not around) then you can say Adolin killed Sadeas for the exact same reasons. Sadeas was a threat to everyone and made it clear he would continue to be.

[Shards of Mist]

What is the overall point of the Knights Radiant?  It's to prepare mankind for the coming Desolation(or Desolations in the past).  Part of that would be eliminating the world of people who sowed discord among the people.  Someone like Sadeas, who may not actively be trying to weaken mankind but is doing so out of his own greed, would be the exact type of person the Knights Radiant would be honor bound IMO to eliminate. 

 

Obviously someone like Kaladin, whose order is all about protection, wouldn't be able to do it.  That's why there are 10 orders.  The elimination of men like Sadeas seems to be the exact reason for the creation of the Skybreakers.  If it turns out that Adolin doesn't become a KR, it won't be because of this murder IMO.  Let's look at the surgebinders we already know.  

 

Dalinar may not be a murderer.  We don't really know his past.  However, he certainly has had murderous thoughts(towards his own brother even) and has acted out of greed and self service many times in his past.  Not to mention being the deadliest killer his country has known in a long time.

 

Jasnah has certainly killed people in her past.  We know of the 4 with Shallan and we also know she has hired many assassins.  Using an assassin to murder someone is no different than doing so yourself IMO.  The intent is the same.

 

Shallan murdered her father.  She also killed her mother, although it was apparently self defence.  She also allows an innocent wagon driver to be murdered to further her own goals.  Doesn't seem too honorable there.

 

Ym is a murderer.  We know that is the main argument Nalan uses for killing him.  Despite his murder, he stills attracts a spren.

 

So, out of the surgebinders we know.  4 of the 7 are murderers or at least have had murderous thoughts.(I have a feeling we will be shocked by Dalinar's past when we get his flashbacks).  Lift is a thief.  Kaladin is a killer, albeit an honorable one.  Only Renarin seems to be someone without much of a shady past.  I think Adolin was too White Knight-ish before this murder to have ever attracted a spren.  We know someone needs a broken soul in order for the Nahel bond to happen.  Before this, I don't believe Adolin had a broken soul.

 

Now, we know that a broken soul can also attract evil instead of good, so there is no guarantee that Adolin will attract a spren and become a KR.  However, I'm hopeful that he will.  He's my favorite character so far in the books and I want to see him fight for the good side instead of being  a tool of Odium's.

 

I really just want a scene where Kaladin is nearly being overwhelmed by 5 or 6 dozen voidbringers and Skybreaker Adolin lands and says "Really bridgeboy, can't handle a few voidbringers?"  Then we see the awesomeness these two could do together.  Maybe just my selfish hope.  I honestly could see Adolin becoming a Stoneward or a Dustbringer more than a Skybreaker.

[Seloun]

Kaladin didn't kill Szeth in self-defense. He chased after him, over and over, until he killed him. Of course he was resurrected but that is beside the point. If you say it was in defense of Dalinar and family (who were not around) then you can say Adolin killed Sadeas for the exact same reasons. Sadeas was a threat to everyone and made it clear he would continue to be.

 

Kaladin has explicit internal commentary about why he's pursuing Szeth in those cases. Besides driving him away initially, Kaladin first pursues Szeth since he specifically mentions that he doesn't have to fight Kaladin, he just has to kill Dalinar. After the teleport, Szeth again mentions that he knows where Dalinar went (and Kaladin does not know - as far as he knows it might be just minutes away).

 

I don't think you can directly compare Kaladin vs. Szeth to Adolin vs. Sadeas. Sadeas is not an immediate threat to Dalinar's life. Sadeas is still talking about undercutting Dalinar and removing him from power and not about killing Dalinar.

 

That said, all that only means for sure is that Adolin's not going to be a Windrunner, which is a pretty low bar since it's unlikely anyone besides Kaladin will be a Windrunner (at least in the immediate future). I wouldn't call his actions to be a Skybreaker, either, given that he explicitly takes actions to avoid incrimination.

[flinn]

^ I disagree, Sadeas is as big if not bigger immediate threat to Dalinar and family as Szeth ever was. Sadeas was after destroying everything and rebuilding it his way in the midst of the Everstorm. Sadeas had attempted to kill Dalinar and Adolin before and would again.

[AyeJay]

 

Shallan murdered her father.  She also killed her mother, although it was apparently self defence.  She also allows an innocent wagon driver to be murdered to further her own goals.  Doesn't seem too honorable there.

 

Her father was being an immediate threat to her brothers when she killed him. The mother was most certainly self-defense (and probably a lot of flailing). She didn't allow the driver to be killed, she was too inexperienced to realize the danger she was putting him in. The bits where she lies a lot and occasionally steals things are her less-than-honorable habits. 

[Dalinaut]

Hi everyone, I've been a lurker for  awhile and finally decided to join up

 

Regarding Adolins actions to Sadeas, I really dont think it should/will affect his future of being a Knight Radiant.  Sorry if I missed someone else saying this, but we have to remember what happened at the Tower.  Sadeas was directly responsible for the death of thousands of soldiers.  Adolin and Dalinar included...(if not for bridge 4).  I think most will agree Sadeas got what he deserved, but what Adolin did shouldn't be considered cold blooded murder for no reason.  It was more like judgement/punishment for crimes committed.  I think there's an order for that, isnt there??

 

Also a question, and I've read the scene multiple times...

 

I read on here that Adolin threw the dagger out the window, but I really think he threw Oathbringer out and left the dagger in Sadeas face.  Thoughts?

Edited March 9, 2014 by Dalinaut

[shinintendo]

It has been confirmed(in signing) he can't be Skybreaker. but he can be Dustbringer and some other orders.

[FollowYourMuse]

I do not think that killing Sadeas eliminates Adolin from possible KR status,  none of the known Radiants has a squeaky clean past, in fact Adolin could be said to be the "best"  of any of them until this.

 

What I do see is the killing of Sadeas has set him up as a character,  adding some internal conflict, guilt? and struggle.  Adolin, though he grew up some in WoR  has a way to go and is still "young" unlike Lift, Shallan or Kaldin he has not had the hard life that led to him growing up fast.  

 

Nor has he been broken,  or really had to face many struggles until recently.  To become a Radiant he will need to give up his blade, (maybe), accept the values of one of the radiants - on his own in his own belief,  not just as a son/soldier  following orders, In WoR he had started to see they why and the reasons for Dalinar following the codes, but I think it takes more it will take understanding in his own heart.

 

I am still unsure of Jasnah's past but I believe  there has been some struggle, if nothing else against the status and placement of women. in some ways she has spent her life fighting against the norm, from the role of a Kings daughter, to a woman to the religion.

[The Silver Queen]

Apparently Jerich (here) asked BS at a book signing and BS said there are some orders of the Radiants that would be happy with Adolin's actions. Not the Skybreakers though, since he broke the law.

[Bobobagins]

I'm just going to state the obvious since alot of people seems not to understand the implied meaning of the first oath being the same for all KR "Life before Death" the choice to preserve life over death to be the defender instead of the attacker to attack without the need to defend is to be death the killing in the defence of one's self or others is to choose life. Adolin attacked Sadias and infact a surprise attack at that. With the intent to kill and succeeding this means he chose to bring death rather than life no matter past circumstances this means he cannot uphold the first oath which means he will not be made a KR because the storm father will ultimately refuse his first oath insighting this act as reason. Also is it just me or does the fact that Kaladin now has the honor blade of the wind runners the same one that was planted in the ground at the beginning of the first book the one that is wielded by the king of heralds kind of telling in the cases of what we can expect.......

[Jerich]

I'm just going to state the obvious since alot of people seems not to understand the implied meaning of the first oath being the same for all KR "Life before Death" the choice to preserve life over death to be the defender instead of the attacker to attack without the need to defend is to be death the killing in the defence of one's self or others is to choose life. Adolin attacked Sadias and infact a surprise attack at that. With the intent to kill and succeeding this means he chose to bring death rather than life no matter past circumstances this means he cannot uphold the first oath which means he will not be made a KR because the storm father will ultimately refuse his first oath insighting this act as reason. Also is it just me or does the fact that Kaladin now has the honor blade of the wind runners the same one that was planted in the ground at the beginning of the first book the one that is wielded by the king of heralds kind of telling in the cases of what we can expect.......

 

I was worried about this too, but according to what Brandon said to me today at the Seattle signing there are orders of the KR that would not only be completely okay with what Adolin did, but that they would applaud it.  Just like the Skybreakers are the Military Police of the Knights Radiant and the Windrunners are like the Secret Service, there are probably some more Knights Errant / clandestine orders.  Every big organization needs them!  

 

Luckily, you don't have to take my words and memory for this.  Brandon's comment was being recorded and the exact wording of what he said will most likely be posted by another Sharder.

[JamHeretic]

Does Kaladin have the honorblade? I thought Hoid had pulled a switcheroo.  Kaladin certainly doesn't need it. (Although I admit to being curious about what happens if a Surgebinder holds an Honorblade - of the same order or of a different order; either answer could be interesting).

[PorridgeBrick]

Hoid probably switched Taln's blade, but Kal got Jez's blade directly from Sezth's dying hands.

[JamHeretic]

Hoid probably switched Taln's blade, but Kal got Jez's blade directly from Sezth's dying hands.

 

Oh, you're right, I mixed up Jez and Taln's blades. Thanks!

[Bobobagins]

I was worried about this too, but according to what Brandon said to me today at the Seattle signing there are orders of the KR that would not only be completely okay with what Adolin did, but that they would applaud it.  Just like the Skybreakers are the Military Police of the Knights Radiant and the Windrunners are like the Secret Service, there are probably some more Knights Errant / clandestine orders.  Every big organization needs them!  

 

Luckily, you don't have to take my words and memory for this.  Brandon's comment was being recorded and the exact wording of what he said will most likely be posted by another Sharder.

He said they would "applaud" him not "do the same thing" I belive the question posed was side step via word play lol that is itself is telling.

[rjl]

I'm just going to state the obvious since alot of people seems not to understand the implied meaning of the first oath being the same for all KR "Life before Death" the choice to preserve life over death to be the defender instead of the attacker to attack without the need to defend is to be death the killing in the defence of one's self or others is to choose life. Adolin attacked Sadias and infact a surprise attack at that. With the intent to kill and succeeding this means he chose to bring death rather than life no matter past circumstances this means he cannot uphold the first oath which means he will not be made a KR because the storm father will ultimately refuse his first oath insighting this act as reason.

Life before death doesn't mean never kill anyone, and Sadeas had just said that he intended to undermine and ultimately kill Dalinar, yes he wasn't expecting to be attacked, but I don't blame Adolin for what he did at all.

Also it said that Adolin noted that Sadeas didn 't believe what he was saying but intended to stick to it anyway.

I'm down with the idea of Adolin ressurecting his sword, probably to then become a dustbringer.

That's what I want to see anyway...

[Gamma Fiend]

It's not like Adolin just killed Sadeas solely because "he's a really mean person". Yeah, it was in a rage. But that's because he realized just how much of an eel Sadeas is. He knew Sadeas would stop at nothing to undermine and eventually hurt/kill his Father. (and at that point ensuring Odium's win. but to be fair, Sadeas it too much of a git to realize that).

Life before Death doesn't always mean 'not killing ever'. Kaladin is out slaughtering Parshendi left and right. But it's still the right thing to do, and that's even by a strict Honorspren's moral guidelines. Adolin killing Sadeas prevented so much further strife and petty politics from his end, although I doubt Sadeas' wife will be pleases very much. I imagine she'll raise her own highstorm of trouble in revenge).

Protecting those who can't protect themselves? There's a Spren for that.
Uniting people, and not dividing? There's a Spren for that.
Tearing your family apart with your lies and Matricide? There's even a Spren for that.
So I'm totally willing to bet there's an appropriate Spren for driving a dagger through Sadeas' eye.

Is there a KR Order that deals with taking out the trash?

I was then going to go on about Adolin just reviving his Shardblade anyways... but I just got Ninja'd for pretty much the same points.

[rjl]

Gamma: in defence if Shallan, she killed her mother in self defence, I don't think any spren would be down with it if she were the aggressor there...

Dustbringer is the best fit I think we can go for, "brave/obedient" are the attributes, Skybreakers per Brandon insist on strict law keeping, none if the other orders seem to have particularly relevant attributes.

Adolin is a) brave and obedient to his father

The only other attribute fit I can see is number 9 "dependable/resourceful", stonewards

Hmm, he's also not a complete clash with 8 "resolute/builder" but I don't see it as a fit.