[OB] Shardplate, Shard-Zootsuit

[GiveMeASpren(I'mCrazy)]

I was recently trying to picture the battle at the end of WoR in non-cosmere terms, and it got me wondering - why don't windrunners black out from high-G maneuvers, turns, and even just speed-runs? I mean, maybe shardplate could work like a zoot suit to let them get a couple more Gs (sorry, lashes, I've still speaking Earth-English), but at this point Kaladin and Szeth don't even have proto-plate.

[Doomdrinker]

I assumed the stormlight it self would help with that 

[Leyrann]

Stormlight, or maybe Required Secondary Powers.

[digitalbusker]

I imagine stormlight would help since it seems to provide full body oxygenation without needing to breathe or circulate blood, but also, with Roshar's lower gravity each lashing is only 0.7 g, and I don't think we are seeing very many Gravitation users get into double digit lashings very often.

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I imagine stormlight would help since it seems to provide full body oxygenation without needing to breathe or circulate blood, but also, with Roshar's lower gravity each lashing is only 0.7 g, and I don't think we are seeing very many Gravitation users get into double digit lashings very often.

Just making sure, you're not mixing up the 1 g = 9.81 m/s^2, are you?

I mean, the stormlight is still a good argument, but from how I read your post I thought you might've mixed those two numbers up.

[digitalbusker]

3 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Just making sure, you're not mixing up the 1 g = 9.81 m/s^2, are you?

I mean, the stormlight is still a good argument, but from how I read your post I thought you might've mixed those two numbers up.

I am. What's the issue?

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

Shardplate can’t work like that, because Shardplate can’t be lashed. 

Copermind: Shardplate protects the user from Surgebinding. It is not possible to use any lashings against someone armored in Shardplate. It is also not possible for a wielder of an Honorblade to Surgebind while wearing plate, due to interference from the gemstones.^[1]

[digitalbusker]

1 minute ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Shardplate can’t work like that, because Shardplate can’t be lashed. 

Copermind: Shardplate protects the user from Surgebinding. It is not possible to use any lashings against someone armored in Shardplate. It is also not possible for a wielder of an Honorblade to Surgebind while wearing plate, due to interference from the gemstones.^[1]

You can't lash someone wearing Shardplate, but if you yourself have Shardplate (the Radiant kind, presumably, as opposed to dead plate) you can lash yourself. (The Windrunner in Dalinar's vision with the midnight essences be is wearing plate while flying.) The OP is suggesting that Shardplate might help with the G forces for Windrunners and Skybreakers.

[Vissy]

It's never explained, so I just assume it's the same as with Feruchemical Steel in Mistborn: you get the mental capacity to deal with increased sensory input, plus resistance up to a certain point against wind resistance and G forces, as a side bonus of using the F-Steel. So you probably get G resistance and all that stuff as a side benefit of Windrunning. And they're also really acclimated to using Gravitation, so they can withstand G better than most. I'd imagine it's still possible to black out momentarily if you try extremely sharp turns one after another though. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Vissy

[Wandering Investor]

I imagine there are two reasons Windrunners don't have problems with this. The first is that they aren't being exposed to very high forces so far. The acceleration they're currently taking are probably a little rough but not unbearable, and as someone pointed out Roshar only has a gravity of 0.7 Earth Gs, which lowers the force they experience even further. The second factor is stormlight which will counteract both the oxygen problems of higher Gs and the physical trauma of the acceleration.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I imagine there are two reasons Windrunners don't have problems with this. The first is that they aren't being exposed to very high forces so far. The acceleration they're currently taking are probably a little rough but not unbearable, and as someone pointed out Roshar only has a gravity of 0.7 Earth Gs, which lowers the force they experience even further. The second factor is stormlight which will counteract both the oxygen problems of higher Gs and the physical trauma of the acceleration.

Roshar's atmosphere also has a higher oxygen content than ours. 

All of these points aside, this is actually an in world concern. I'm sure there's a scene in OB where Kaladin nearly blacks out from reversing direction suddenly. 

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Roshar's atmosphere also has a higher oxygen content than ours. 

All of these points aside, this is actually an in world concern. I'm sure there's a scene in OB where Kaladin nearly blacks out from reversing direction suddenly. 

That scene does exist. It happens in Shadesmar outside the Thaylena oathgate. Kaladin's vision goes out and he subsequently has a thought about it.

Quote

Spoiler

At the same moment, Kaladin dove, canceling all upward Lashings and binding himself downward instead.
    The sudden, jarring change made his stomach lurch and his vision go black. Even with Stormlight, this was almost too much. His ears ringing, he gritted his teeth, riding the momentary loss of sight until - blessedly - his vision returned.

...

Let's...not try that again, Kaladin thought, hefting his new weapon.

--

Oathbringer, Chapter 116, pg 1188, ebook.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Furry-And-Lovable-Grover
reference

[Calderis]

And on an unrelated note, this thread has had Zootsuit Riot stuck in my head all day. 

Thanks for that... 

[Weltall]

@Calderis Oh good, I'm not the only one then. xD

[The One Who Connects]

16 hours ago, GiveMeASpren(I'mCrazy) said:

why don't Windrunners black out from high-G maneuvers, turns, and even just speed-runs?

As Calderis and Grover have mentioned, such a thing nearly happened to Kaladin. Additionally, I'm fairly certain that something similar happens to Szeth during one of his escapades in WoK.

He switches directions too many times too quickly and gets disoriented, forcing him to make a rolling stop on one of the walls rather than landing on his feet.

I know it isn't blacking out, but its a start. And the narration of the fight keeps track of the direction changes, so we get an idea of where their limits are.

10 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Just making sure, you're not mixing up the 1 g = 9.81 m/s^2, are you?

I mean, the stormlight is still a good argument, but from how I read your post I thought you might've mixed those two numbers up.

I'm not sure I follow, so I'll parrot digitalbusker. What is the issue here?

[Leyrann]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm not sure I follow, so I'll parrot digitalbusker. What is the issue here?

I thought that he maybe thought the Roshar acceleration constant wasn't "0.7 g", but rather "0.7 m/s^2", with him talking about the "double digit" Lashings.

[GiveMeASpren(I'mCrazy)]

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

It's never explained, so I just assume it's the same as with Feruchemical Steel in Mistborn: you get the mental capacity to deal with increased sensory input, plus resistance up to a certain point against wind resistance and G forces, as a side bonus of using the F-Steel. So you probably get G resistance and all that stuff as a side benefit of Windrunning. And they're also really acclimated to using Gravitation, so they can withstand G better than most. I'd imagine it's still possible to black out momentarily if you try extremely sharp turns one after another though. 

 

17 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I imagine stormlight would help since it seems to provide full body oxygenation without needing to breathe or circulate blood, but also, with Roshar's lower gravity each lashing is only 0.7 g, and I don't think we are seeing very many Gravitation users get into double digit lashings very often.

None of these answers would help the others who Kaladin lashes with him, though. (Though it could just be that they don't go so fast or turn very quickly)

[ShardplateJoe III]

Usually, when accelerating in all kinds of directions really fast, g-forces accompany it, however, when that happens in our world, it isn't because we changed the direction gravity pulls on us, usually it is that we are changing which directions other objects are pushing on us. These other objects pushing on us are what cause g-force, or the sensation of weight, and forces greater than 1 g would have to be generated either by having a machine of sorts push you around really fast, or by standing on a planet bigger than earth. However, due to the nature of gravity, lashing in different directions will not make you experience any significant g's until you are traveling at high-lashing terminal velocities.

Gravity is a field force, which means that it will effect an object entirely. It will not exert a force in one area of an object, it will pull on the entire thing. When we think of a jet pilot experiencing g's that is because the plane will push on the rigidly attached seat, which will push on the somewhat rigidly attached pilot's body, which will then push on his not-at-all rigidly attached blood. Because the blood is not rigidly attached to the pilot, and because it has inertia, it will slosh around relative to the pilot. When the pilot turns his plane upward, his blood will move toward his feet. When he turns his plane downward, his blood will rush into his head. When a windrunner lashes himself to the sky, his blood will remain stationary relative to his body, because gravity will pull on his entire body-- blood included-- all at once.

Because of this, both Kaladin and people he would lash who cannot have the benefits of Stormlight at the same time, will not experience any g's, just weightlessness.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

Because of this, both Kaladin and people he would lash who cannot have the benefits of Stormlight at the same time, will not experience any g's, just weightlessness.

Exactly, which is why the only time we've seen him come near to blacking out was as the result of an abrupt change of direction. He created a strong pull opposite the inertia, which made the blood issue you mentioned happen. 

[ShardplateJoe III]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Exactly, which is why the only time we've seen him come near to blacking out was as the result of an abrupt change of direction. He created a strong pull opposite the inertia, which made the blood issue you mentioned happen. 

There were a few people in the thread that did not know this, so I just decided to post to help them.

[digitalbusker]

20 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I thought that he maybe thought the Roshar acceleration constant wasn't "0.7 g", but rather "0.7 m/s^2", with him talking about the "double digit" Lashings.

I see. No, I just wasn't showing my work.

The Wikipedia entry for G-LOC says that somebody who is trained and fit and wearing a g-suit shouldn't start having trouble until about 9g. I figure without the g-suit we can knock off a couple, which gets us to 7g, which, coincidentally, is 10 lashings on a world with 0.7g gravity. Hence "double digit lashings".

Tada!