WoR Chapter 84 code

[fin]

I just finished brute forcing 2 10 6 15 3 4 or 2 10 6 1 5 3 4 as simple substitutions and while I'll check more thoroughly tomorrow, I didn't find a winner. This makes sense to me -- why would T use something that simply obfuscates?

[Krenn]

hmmm... there are no '0s'  in the code, except for '10'.  you argument that these are single digits, 1-10, make sense.  that would make the code:
 

1-1 1-8 2-5 10-1 1-1 2-7 1-2 4-9 1-5 1-2 10-1 1-1 1-4 10-2 1-5 1-1 7-1 1-2 10-1 1-1 2-1 7-1 3-4 4-8 8-3 1-1 10-7 1-5 1-4 2-5 4-1 4-3 4-10 9-1 6-1 4-9 1-4 9-3 4-1 2-1 2-2 5-4 10-10 1-2 5-1 2-7 10-1 5-1 9-10 1-1 1-2 3-4 1-2 5-5 1-1 5-2 5-1 2-1 5-7 5-5 1-1 1-2 3-4 10-1 1-1 2-9 1-5 1-2 10-6 1-5 3-4

with 32 unique pair combinations....

 

that's possible...

 

or, if we read 10-1 as "11" and 10-10-1 as "21", the highest number in the list would be 21...

1 1 1 8 2 5 11 1 1 2 7 1 2 4 9 1 5 1 2 21 1 1 4 12 1 5 1 1 7 1 1 2 11 1 1 2 1 7 1 3 4 4 8 3 1 1 17 1 5 1 4 2 5 4 1 4 3 4 19 1 6 1 4 9 1 4 9 3 4 1 2 1 2 2 5 4 21 2 5 1 2 7 11 5 1 9 11 1 1 2 3 4 1 2 5 5 1 1 5 2 5 1 2 1 5 7 5 5 1 1 1 2 3 4 11 1 1 2 9 1 5 1 2 16 1 5 3 4

not sure how to tell the diference between 10-1 as "11" vs "10, 1" though.

[Eejit]

One of the challenges here is deciding how to split the numbers - Is 34 "three four" or "thirty four"? Are they in regular pairs, or irregular? Etc.

Well, I realized that this is a problem with OUR numbering system, only. Taravangian's assistants would not have had this problem!

If you look at how Thaylen numbers are written, their numeral system does not have this kind of ambiguity. "11" does not look like two "1"'s next to each other. In fact, 11 does not look like any other number. (Harakeke and Pattern worked this out in the "Thaylen and Alethi Glyph Translation" thread - http://imgur.com/dAVRpED).

That means that if the string "101112" for example was actually 10 11 12, it would have been immediately clear to Taravangian's assistants that it was 3 distinct numbers. So unless Brandon was being particularly mean by smushing them together AFTER converting to our numeral system, I think we can assume that this is actually a string of numbers from 1-10. (This also fits someone else's observation that we never see a "0" without it being in "10").

If we do things like that don't we lose the palindrome / ketek? I think that's going to be key.

[Moogle]

One thing I believe everyone is missing out on is that Floorboard 17 is an interweaving of two other epigraphs.
 

TherehastobeananswerWhatisthe answerStopTheParshendiOneofthem YestheyarethemissingpiecePushforthe Alethitodestroythemoutrightbeforethis oneobtainstheirpowerItwillform abridge —From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the second

 

 

AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobvious fromthenatureofthebondButwhere wherewherewhereSetoffObvious RealizationlikeapricityTheyarewiththe ShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketousea TruthlessCanwecraftaweapon —From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first

 

The original paragraph is AThhbeur...<etc>. It's gibberish until you take every second letter.

 

It is possible that we're being tripped by Chapter 84's epigraph because we're trying to analyze it as if it is one message. What if it's two instead?

 

111825101112712491512101011141021511 711210111217134483111071514254143 410916149149341212254101012512710 151910111234125511525121575511123410 1112915121061534 —From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15
 

We could split this into two:

 

Message 1: 1121...

Message 2: 1850...

 

Or, if it is as people suspect and it's split into pairs of numbers representing characters, then we could split it that way.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Moogle

[marianmi]

Mr. T did not write any ketek in the Diagram until now, why would he write this one as a ketek?

 

Also, this message needs to be seen in a context with:

 

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

-          From the Diagram, Book of the 2^nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1

 

 

and we have to understand what "rotation" and "pattern" means.

Edited March 10, 2014 by marianmi

[Kurkistan he/him]

One thing I believe everyone is missing out on is that Floorboard 17 is an interweaving of two other epigraphs.

 

 

 

The original paragraph is AThhbeur...<etc>. It's gibberish until you take every second letter.

 

It is possible that we're being tripped by Chapter 84's epigraph because we're trying to analyze it as if it is one message. What if it's two instead?

 

111825101112712491512101011141021511 711210111217134483111071514254143 410916149149341212254101012512710 151910111234125511525121575511123410 1112915121061534 —From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15

 

We could split this into two:

 

Message 1: 1121...

Message 2: 1850...

 

Or, if it is as people suspect and it's split into pairs of numbers representing characters, then we could split it that way.

 

I think this is likely a fruitful route. Brandon did say the key was in the book, after all.

[Argent he/him]

One thing I believe everyone is missing out on is that Floorboard 17 is an interweaving of two other epigraphs.

Several members have tried it out, but it doesn't seem to work out. Then again, nothing else seems to work out, so maybe we are just not trying hard enough...

[Pattern he/him]

Mr. T did not write any ketek in the Diagram until now, why would he write this one as a ketek?

 

Also, this message needs to be seen in a context with:

 

 

and we have to understand what "rotation" and "pattern" means.

 

The palindromes are our best structure until now - not meaning that it IS really relevant. We are still guessing and trying.

That there has been no ketek from Mr.T until now doesn't say anything, since we only know very little from the Diagram.

 

"Rotation" means probably, that Mr. T wrote around the ceiling. If I would have to write on a ceiling, I would start near the walls and work towards the middle of the room.

 

"pattern" is still quite unclear. Perhaps creating a nice pattern from the text in pattern 1 would give us a hint to order the number string.

 

One thing I believe everyone is missing out on is that Floorboard 17 is an interweaving of two other epigraphs.

 

 

 

The original paragraph is AThhbeur...<etc>. It's gibberish until you take every second letter.

 

It is possible that we're being tripped by Chapter 84's epigraph because we're trying to analyze it as if it is one message. What if it's two instead?

 

111825101112712491512101011141021511 711210111217134483111071514254143 410916149149341212254101012512710 151910111234125511525121575511123410 1112915121061534 —From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15

 

We could split this into two:

 

Message 1: 1121...

Message 2: 1850...

 

Or, if it is as people suspect and it's split into pairs of numbers representing characters, then we could split it that way.

That interweaving has been tried (bruteforce substitution, if I remember correctly). There have also been discussions about the different lenghts of both former interweaved messages. I believe they could result from translation from Mr-T-ish to Alethi to English. Or Brandon just didn't count letters...

 

Concerning patterns: Here what I did to pattern 15 (1st try, will do more tomorrow)

Edited March 10, 2014 by Pattern

[marianmi]

Interweaving is not likely to work, there were 2 paragraphs "interwoven" and now we have 2 paragraphs in a "rotational pattern". 

There are (i think) 58 spaces in the first rotational pattern out of 311 characters => is there something with a similar frequency (let's say 2 digits/letter) in the first  pattern?

[DefiantBurrito]

If we do things like that don't we lose the palindrome / ketek? I think that's going to be key.

 

We don't lose the ketek by doing that... I was thinking that each number from 1-10 could stand for a glyph or letter, and those would form words.  You could still have symmetry with the words themselves

 

151-9-101112-34-12-5511-52512157-5511-12-34-101112-9-151

 

Using my theory, I would interpret the 151 as a single word made up of three glyphs (or something): 1, 5, 1.  

 

My point is, interpreting it as "15, 1" or "1, 51" or "151" is unlikely because in the Thaylen numeral system, those numbers would look very different.  If it was "1, 51" presumably Mr. T's assistants would know that right away, and we would get spaces or something to indicate that.

 

Continuing:

 

9 is a single glyph which is a word by itself.

 

"101112" is a word made up of "10", "triple-1" (whatever that means), and "2".  My tentative hypothesis is that "111" means something like "the 3rd letter in the name of the 1st glyph" or "the 3rd form of the 1st glyph", etc.  Not really sure yet.

[Krenn]

is there any way the code could be hidden in the epigraphs from the in-world book, 'Words of radiance' ? we have chapter and page numbers for all those epigraphs...

[Krenn]

I don't know if this means anything or not...

looking at the epigraphs from the in-world book, "words of radiance", i tried to insert 'ch', for 'chapter', every time i found a sequence of numbers in the code which matched with a chapter number. there were a LOT of matches, although i couldn't find a good way to make the epigraph page numbers work as well. apologies for how difficult this to read. my original version had line breaks befoer each 'ch', but i didn't want this post to be hundreds of lines long.

ch11 *18 ch2 ch5 *10 ch11 ch12 ch7 ch12 *491 ch5 ch12 *1010 ch11 *1410 ch21 ch5 ch11 ch7 ch11 ch2 *10 ch11 ch12 ch17
ch13 *44 ch8 *3 ch11 *10 ch7 *1 ch5 *14 ch2 ch5 *41434109 ch16 *14914934 ch12 ch12 ch2 ch5 *41010 ch12 ch5 ch12 ch7 *101

ch5 *1910 ch11 ch12 *34 ch12 ch5 ch5 ch11 ch5 ch2 ch5 ch12 *1 ch5 ch7 ch5 ch5 ch11 ch12 *3410 ch11 ch12 *91 ch5 ch12 *1061

ch5 *34

 

 i couldn't find a good way to make the epigraph page numbers work as well, this is the best i got:

ch11 *18 ch2 ch5 *10 ch11 ch12 ch7 pg1 ch2 pg4 *91 ch5 ch12 *1010 ch11 *1410 ch21 ch5 ch11 ch7 ch11 ch2 *10
ch11 ch12 ch17 ch13 *44 ch8 *3 ch11 *1071 ch5 *14 ch2 ch5 *41434109 ch16 pg14 *914934 ch12 pg12 ch2 ch5 *41010 ch12 ch5 ch12 *7101 ch5 *1910 ch11 ch12 *34 ch12 ch5 ch5 ch11 ch5 ch2 ch5 ch12 *1 ch5 *7 ch5 ch5 ch11 ch12 *3410 ch11 ch12 *91
ch5 ch12 *10 ch6 *1 ch5 *34

 

however, I'm not all certain that this meany anything... it's purely pattern searching at the moment.

[JamHeretic]

So I desperately want to know when this gets translated, but this thread is getting long enough that I'd rather not have to follow it to find out. I don't suppose one of you guys would be interested in starting a new thread for the non-cryptographers once you get it solved, would you?

[Krenn]

So I desperately want to know when this gets translated, but this thread is getting long enough that I'd rather not have to follow it to find out. I don't suppose one of you guys would be interested in starting a new thread for the non-cryptographers once you get it solved, would you?

don't expect it to be solved anytime soon. without additional clues from the author, we're basically just spinning in circles.  every method that's been tried so far produces gibberish text, and we can't even figure out which portions of the book are supposed to be relevant to solving this.

[marianmi]

it looks to be strange to invent yet another script in the map - both letters AND numbers - just to show shallan's landing point. too much of a trouble.

so... maybe this script is really important for this code.

did anyone try to draw the numbers in a spiral, maybe the result is some kind of a map?

[Seloun]

Couple of observations -

 

1) Every 0 is preceded by a 1. This seems so unlikely given any nontrivial distribution the two that I think '10' is a single character. Given that there's no '20', one possibility is to break up the sequence unambiguously into values between 2 through 19 inclusive. Note: I tried this with a basic substitution cipher but could not make much headway. However, when broken up into this fashion, every number from 2-19 shows up at least once in the sequence.

 

2) Every '111' is followed by an even number.

 

3) 915121 shows up twice.

[Harakeke]

&nbsp;

don't expect it to be solved anytime soon. without additional clues from the author, we're basically just spinning in circles.&nbsp; every method that's been tried so far produces gibberish text, and we can't even figure out which portions of the book are supposed to be relevant to solving this.

&nbsp;

I've mostly bowed out of the Ch. 84 deciphering to focus on glyphs, but I feel like you folks are making solid, if incremental progress. Don't lose heart!

It might be helpful if someone (not me) compiled a summary of what we know, what we speculate, and what's been attempted so far for Satsuoni to put in the first post. That way people who are interested in the code don't have to slog though dozens of pages to get up to speed.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Harakeke

[Nikita]

What about the map where Nazh annotates Shallan's landing spot? I remember there were glyphs at the top and bottom. Could those somehow be part of the key?

[Travis1984]

Ok guys...think about this for a second.  If you were an author, and you wanted to put a clever code into your book, you'd be, well, clever.

It seems to me that Brandon may have given us the clue at the Seattle signing.  He stated, "There is a key in the book."

Breaking the numbers into pairs, I think we may have the frame work of the code, but not the key.

If we could determine a phrase within the book that is they key, we could write it in an appropriate key block and translate the correct number for letters. 

For example: Key Phrase: The Cat Has Fat

 

  1234
1TCHF
2HAAA
3ETST

Where they you wanted to spell out the word fast...it would be coded as. 14223332 (14-22-33-32)

You can see how multiple letters could be associated to the same number which makes sense given we have 30 unique pairs.

Any thoughts?

[Krenn]

if it IS some type of substitution cipher, this is the best program i've found so far for cracking substition ciphers.  but no results so far, and it only works with single-case alphabets.

http://www.secretcodebreaker.com/scbsolvr.html

[Travis1984]

Would be tough to get a cipher breaker to work if it's using SA specific words...I'm on a re-read now, looking for something that could point me in the closer direction.  I feel good about this.

[angryman13]

in the diagram epiagraphs there was often something about second letter from the first something etc (i dont have a copy of the book with me right now to check) but could that have something to do with this and its solution ?

[Travis1984]

in the diagram epiagraphs there was often something about second letter from the first something etc (i dont have a copy of the book with me right now to check) but could that have something to do with this and its solution ?

 

It could.  But it seems as though T uses different ciphers for different "patterns."  I'm curious as to where this road will go and to watch the thought progression of the 17th community.

[Satsuoni he/him]

SA-specific word and ngram dictionaries, for those who want them...

 

twok_1l.txt

twok_2l.txt

twok_3l.txt

twok_4l.txt

twokwords.txt

[Harakeke]

&nbsp;

What about the map where Nazh annotates Shallan's landing spot? I remember there were glyphs at the top and bottom. Could those somehow be part of the key?

&nbsp;

Those are numbers denoting latitude. Unlikely to be directly related to the code. See http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6487-thaylen-and-alethi-glyph-translation-spoilers/ for more info.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Harakeke