[OB] The Letters and First of the Sun

[Carbonationspren]

Minor Sixth of Dusk Spoilers Ahead

So, at the London signing, we got this WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium

Aurimus

Is that one of the Aviar?

Brandon Sanderson

No that is the island

Overlord Jebus

Island or islands?

Brandon Sanderson

The island but Patji is one of the islands.

Yurisses

It's a Shard?!

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, big asterisk! But yes.

Aurimus

Shard as in equal or Shard as in a mass of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

As in one of the 16 Shards of Adonalsium is represented and involved in First of the Sun. In fact, one of the letters references First of the Sun in this *Indicates to Oathbringer*

Sorry, I probably killed some theories on that one.

(Emphasis added, complete WoB can be found at https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606)

 

So, what does this mean if one of the letters is referencing First of the Sun? One thing that we should take into account is that Sixth of Dusk takes place a long time after Stormlight Archive, so assuming that the Letters were written contemporary to Oathbringer, Patji itself might not be the Vessel/location of a Shard yet. First of the Sun would be mentioned in an earlier state than it is seen in Sixth of Dusk. I see a few possibilities for First of the Sun being mentioned in the letters:

1. The Shard on First of the Sun is the author of the first letter
2. The Shard on FoS is the author of the second letter (theorized to be Bavadin, holder of Autonomy)
3. Obrodai the Shardworld is an earlier name for FoS (and the "avatar" there is Patji? Though, Patji is referred to as male, and the avatar is referred to as female.)

It is probably not in the third letter, since that is almost definitely written by Harmony. 

So, what do you guys think? Anything I've missed? What can we learn from this about FoS/Patji?

Edited December 3, 2017 by Carbonationspren

[MonsterMetroid]

Dang I posted this in the short stories board too super exciting stuff!

[Andy92]

I also ran across this newer WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259-oathbringer-leeds-signing/#e8763

I wonder if this could be referring to what Autonomy does? 

[RShara]

That does sound like what might be happening with Autonomy.  I also suspect the second letter is the one that is addressed to the shard that was on FotS, and that the shard in question is likely Autonomy (again).  Bavadin really gets around!

[Pattern]

Would Patji be called a Shard of Adonalsium if it were a splinter of Autonomy?

Leaving autonomous splinters behind definitely would be a thing of Autonomy. Additionally to Bavadin's worlds, the Evil on Threnody might also be a left-behind splinter of a Shard.

In the AU, Khriss refers to the perpendicularity on First of the Sun as unusual, since a perpendicularity is the hallmark of a Shard on a planet. Khriss says there is certainly no Shard residing in the system.

But: there is a Shard whose Intent is Survival, it is hiding (from Odium, Autonomy, whoever).

I'd say Khriss is just not able to find the Shard on First of the Sun, because Patji is the Survival Shard gone into hiding. The perpendicularity on First of the Sun is not unusual, but the behaviour of its corresponding Shard.

Edit: After reading the whole sequence of WoB, especially the point where he mentions the letter, I changed my mind on Patji being the Shard whose Intent is Survival. Autonomy is my hottest candidate now. Their Intent also fits well with the theme in Sixth of the Dusk, since Dusk and all trappers are highly autonomous. Also, the archipelago of Patji being called the Pantheon aligns with the WoB where he states that Bavadin has created a whole patheon of theirself.

The perpendicularity could have been created when Autonomy visited First of the Sun and be hold up by their Connection to Patji. Since also the perpendicularities of splintered Shards don't simply disappear (Elantris, Honor's perpendicularity pre-Dalinar), they seem to be quite stable even in the absence of a living Shard one they were created. And/or Patji could contain just enough Investiture to uphold the perpendicularity.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Pattern

[Guest Procrastinationspren]

3 hours ago, Pattern said:

Would Patji be called a Shard of Adonalsium if it were a splinter of Autonomy?

Leaving autonomous splinters behind definitely would be a thing of Autonomy. Additionally to Bavadin's worlds, the Evil on Threnody might also be a left-behind splinter of a Shard.

In the AU, Khriss refers to the perpendicularity on First of the Sun as unusual, since a perpendicularity is the hallmark of a Shard on a planet. Khriss says there is certainly no Shard residing in the system.

But: there is a Shard whose Intent is Survival, it is hiding (from Odium, Autonomy, whoever).

I'd say Khriss is just not able to find the Shard on First of the Sun, because Patji is the Survival Shard gone into hiding. The perpendicularity on First of the Sun is not unusual, but the behaviour of its corresponding Shard.

Also it would make sense with the whole survival theme of the island.

[ai83]

Isn't Chiri-Chiri coming from Patji? Where else would an invested bird be coming from?

[BeskarKomrk]

1 hour ago, ai83 said:

Isn't Chiri-Chiri coming from Patji? Where else would an invested bird be coming from?

Chiri-Chiri is a larkin, which comes from Aimia originally.

[ShardplateJoe III]

1 hour ago, BeskarKomrk said:

Chiri-Chiri is a larkin, which comes from Aimia originally.

Yeah, the natural plants and animals of Roshar utilize stormlight in the ecosystem, hence the gemhearts.

But this news about Patji excites me. Could we be getting a new Shard?

Edited December 6, 2017 by TheTigerKandra
Spelling

[BeskarKomrk]

11 minutes ago, TheTigerKandra said:

Yeah, the natural plants and animals of Roshar utilize stormlight in the ecosystem, hence the gemhearts.

But this news about Patji excites me. Could we be getting a new Shard?

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), Brandon has said that all of the Letters in Oathbringer are from Shards we know/have seen: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8401

Quote

Pagerunner [PENDING REVIEW]

The letters in Oathbringer. Are they all three from Shards?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Pagerunner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is the first one, is that one we know? Is that one we've seen yet?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They are all ones you have seen.

Pagerunner [PENDING REVIEW]

They are all ones we have seen.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Or at least you know...

Pagerunner [PENDING REVIEW]

Have seen or know of.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah.

This, combined with the WoB in the original post, strongly suggests that Patji is a Shard we've already seen. I believe it is likely to be Autonomy. I'm not sure if Brandon would consider the "Survival Shard" one that we've seen or know about.

[ai83]

1 hour ago, BeskarKomrk said:

Chiri-Chiri is a larkin, which comes from Aimia originally.

We know that from books or WoB? I don't recall if I read this. 

If it comes from Aimia, do you know if it's found there in this exact form? If its origin is uncertain, can it be that it ate Patji worm?

Edited December 6, 2017 by ai83
typo

[BeskarKomrk]

8 minutes ago, ai83 said:

We know that from books or WoB? I don't recall if I read this. 

If it comes from Aimia, do you know if it's found there in this exact form? If its origin is uncertain, can it be that it ate Patji worm?

WoB here refers to them as being "from Aimia": https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1080

I'm not sure if we get a specific confirmation in the books or not, I'd have to go back and look at Rysn's Interlude in WoR. However, in Kaza's Interlude in OB, she sees an animal that appears to be a larkin on Aimia, which would reinforce that as their origin.

[ai83]

5 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

I'd have to go back and look at Rysn's Interlude in WoR

Me too, that's what I was thinking. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see something from First of the Sun here though, after all Roshar is the great crossroad.

Edited December 6, 2017 by ai83

[ai83]

"What is it?" Rysn demanded.

"Why we came here", Vstim said. "The thing we trade for, a treasure that very few know still exist. They were supposed to have died with Aimia, you see. I came here with all these goods in tow because Talik sent to me to say they had the corpse of one to trade. Kings pay fortunes for them."

He leaned down. "I have never seen one alive before. I was given the corpse I wanted in trade. This one has been given to you."

"By the Reshi?" Rysn asked, mind still clouded. She didn't know what to make of any of this. 

"The Reshi could not command one of the larkin", Vstim said. "This was given to you by the island itself. Now drink your medicine and sleep."

Larkins must be really special if kings paid fortunes for them. I reckon they must do something special for the money. Even if they're dead. So clearly kings don't pay fortunes for them as pets. 

Also species native to planets have the habit of spreading their habitats, even if they evolve in the meantime. So even if the larkin was endemic to Aimia, I would expect it to see somewhere else too, not just confined to that place and willing to die with it. The distance between Aimia and continent looks flyable. Moreover, just because they were said to have died with Aimia doesn't mean that's where they're from. 

We also know that merchants do travel through the perpendicularity of Roshar and at least some must've gotten to the Drominad system.

And the larkin was given to Rysn by an island, a living one, which is too much of a coincidence for the Brandonverse. 

If Aimia was always so isolated, maybe there's a gate on it to allow larkin trafficking. 

[Fourth Of The Night]

22 minutes ago, ai83 said:

s native to planets have the habit of spreading their habitats, even if they evolve in the meantime. So even if the larkin was endemic to Aimia, I would expect it to see somewhere else too, not just confined to that place and willing to die with it. The distance between Aimia and continent looks flyable. Moreover, just because they were said to have died with Aimia doesn't mean that's where they're from. 

We also know that merchants do travel through the perpendicularity of Roshar and at least some must've gotten to the Drominad system.

And the larkin was given to Rysn by an island, a living one, which is too much of a coincidence for the Brandonverse. 

If Aimia was always so isolated, maybe there's a gate on it to allow larkin trafficking. 

From Calamity Chicago Signing

Quote

#4 Share

Play/Pause

 

Questioner

[...] For the picture of all the Radiants and their surges, in the background there’s two dragons. Are those just--

Brandon Sanderson

Those are not dragons. Those are little beasties from the world. You’ve seen them before.

Argent

Larkin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But you can call them "dragon bumps" if you want, that’s what Isaac called them when I described them.

Questioner

So are they just from the world, or do they have any over-reaching signif--

Brandon Sanderson

Well they have a certain ability that you may have seen in-world, which is pretty distinctive and different, and so they have a lot of mythological import. They are not widely known by most cultures right now.

Emphasis added by me. Larkin are native to Roshar. They are a flying Cremling-like creature.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I also want to add the the Larkin are a juvenile form of Lanceryns, the Greatshells of aimia.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[stonedshaman]

Listening to the shard cast about the letters they talk about an interesting wob where Brandon says autonomy has been worship by cultures where autonomy is an entire Pantheon of gods.   Also the islands in FoS are also called the pantheon.  Coincidence?  With Brandon I find it highly unlikely 

[Wandering Investor]

On 12/3/2017 at 3:05 AM, Pattern said:

Leaving autonomous splinters behind definitely would be a thing of Autonomy. Additionally to Bavadin's worlds, the Evil on Threnody might also be a left-behind splinter of a Shard.

In the AU, Khriss refers to the perpendicularity on First of the Sun as unusual, since a perpendicularity is the hallmark of a Shard on a planet. Khriss says there is certainly no Shard residing in the system.

Odium and Ambition fought near Threnody. Neither were killed here, but Odium sliced off chunks of Ambition, and the Evil is related to that power that was left behind.

I think the perpendicularity on the First of the Sun is unusual in that it's of Adonalisum and existed before the Shattering.

I'll track down WoB's and edit them in.

EDIT: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5772

And I can't find the quote for Ambition being injured. I just remember seeing somewhere that Ambition was injured, ran, and then killed elsewhere. And Ambition's injury meant chunks of investiture were left in the Threnody system.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[ai83]

11 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

From Calamity Chicago Signing

Emphasis added by me. Larkin are native to Roshar. They are a flying Cremling-like creature.

As, I see, that settles it then. Still I wonder what did they want dead larkin for. 

[Wandering Investor]

11 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

Listening to the shard cast about the letters they talk about an interesting wob where Brandon says autonomy has been worship by cultures where autonomy is an entire Pantheon of gods.   Also the islands in FoS are also called the pantheon.  Coincidence?  With Brandon I find it highly unlikely 

Agreed, the entire island pantheon being of Autonomy seems likely. Just a matter of how autonomous they are. I find it unlikely Autonomy would actual splinters laying around. The letter shows a use of 'we', so the Autonomous personalities are likely still connected directly to the shard. Perhaps a hivemind democracy? That's just a theory though, not enough to confirm anything.

 

Edit: Read an earlier posted WoB. Seems wasteful, but if anyone will leave behind splinters Autonomy seems a likely candidate.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[Fourth Of The Night]

3 minutes ago, ai83 said:

As, I see, that settles it then. Still I wonder what did they want dead larkin for. 

From the WoB that I posted, those who do know of them see them as mythological beings, probably due to how they can feed on Stormlight and, as Obtuse mentioned, most probably the juvenile form of the Lanceryn.

[MonsterMetroid]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I also want to add the the Larkin are a juvenile form of Lanceryns, the Greatshells of aimia.

Woah wait what? How do you know this?

[Fourth Of The Night]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Metroid said:

Woah wait what? How do you know this?

WoR Seattle Signing

Quote

AhoyMatey (paraphrased)

Are larkin and lanceryn one and the same?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There’s a little bit more than just [being] one and the same, but in some ways they are.

 

 

While this isn't conclusive that the Larkin are the Juveniles of the Lanceryn, but it does show that they are closely related, at the very least.

[Blazenella]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Metroid said:

Woah wait what? How do you know this?

Makes quite a bit of sense. Rysn is gifted the Larkin by one of the Reshi Greatshells, and when it sucks voidlight from the Voidbringer trying to steal the King's Drop, she notices that it has gotten bigger. She also says when describing it that it was something small in the shape of something much grander. My assumption is that when it gets enough stormlight it grows into a full sized Greatshell.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 12/3/2017 at 3:05 AM, Pattern said:

Would Patji be called a Shard of Adonalsium if it were a splinter of Autonomy?

Leaving autonomous splinters behind definitely would be a thing of Autonomy. Additionally to Bavadin's worlds, the Evil on Threnody might also be a left-behind splinter of a Shard.

In the AU, Khriss refers to the perpendicularity on First of the Sun as unusual, since a perpendicularity is the hallmark of a Shard on a planet. Khriss says there is certainly no Shard residing in the system.

But: there is a Shard whose Intent is Survival, it is hiding (from Odium, Autonomy, whoever).

I'd say Khriss is just not able to find the Shard on First of the Sun, because Patji is the Survival Shard gone into hiding. The perpendicularity on First of the Sun is not unusual, but the behaviour of its corresponding Shard.

Khriss isn't omnipotent, and the writer of the second letter to Hoid in OB seems surprised that he was even able to locate this avatar, which implies to me that the purpose of the manifestation was to remain hidden.

I think Bavadin/Autonomy practiced the same illusion magic Hoid used to back on Yolen.  Losing one's sense of self seems to be an inherent risk of that type of illusion magic (Hoid seems very familiar with what Shallan is going through now).  I'm guessing Bavadin chose to just embrace that path and fragments personalities/avatars all over the place and now refers to himself/herself/themselves(?) in the plural.  You can't kill her if she's a collective consciousness spread across multiple locations.  

You could say she's diversifying her investments investiture.