[OB] Wit's advice

[PhineasGage]

Ok, so I am really rather confused. I hate being confused so I'm getting a bit angry. As a result, be warned I may meltdown slightly on this post. On the plus side, it might be entertaining to watch. It's long. Really long - not full of quotes tho so it doesn't look as long - but there are more of my own thoughts than usual so it may be a bit much for some.

TL:DR - i'm annoyed because reasons. If you care that much - read them  

Ok, so here is the thing. Shallan's arc through OB reads like a very good depiction of a disorder called OSDD (Other specified dissociative disorder) which is a cluster of symptoms that resemble dissociative identity disorder (DID), which used to be called 'multiple personality disorder', but don't quite meet the criteria for DID. This website (http://did-research.org/comorbid/dd/osdd_udd/did_osdd.html) gives a good run down for those of you wanting more info, but I'll just quickly summarise it here. Note that there may be some oversimplifications for clarity but the gist will be ok.

People with all forms of dissociative identity disorders (including OSDD) suffer from a situation where they wall off sections of their personality from one another in one way or another. These are often called "alts" in common parlance. The amount of variance between the alts can be quite wide depending on which bits are sectioned off from each other, but it doesn't have to be that different. Sometimes alts are separated by how old they identify as being for example so the learned responses are different, but the appearance of the personality might not shift that much to an outsider. 

It's cause is rooted in early childhood when the building blocks of the personality are formed but still subject to change by the environment. The learned responses are essentially  imprinted on the core personality at this stage and this helps solidify the core personality as a whole, rather than individual "chunks". Lack of attachment to parent figures (eg though abuse, neglect, being removed from the home, prolonged hospitalisation) means that the core personality not only isn't as solid as it might be, but that the learned responses added to it are often a problem. For example, a child in a neglectful home may not be taught a wide variety of coping mechanisms. We need a wide variety of resources available to us because you never know what is round the corner. 

For any one of the DID/OSDD disorders to be diagnosed, there have to be distinct identities formed. This is not a mood shift. It is not a dissociation like freezing or going numb (though those often coexist in the disorder). It is specifically that a person shifts from one identity to another and as such their thought and behaviour patterns shift accordingly. DID requires that there is amnesia between the alts. For example, if Fred has DID and has 2 alts, "Fred" and "George", then "Fred" remembers his life and everything he did but says he blackout and loses time and has no knowledge of "George". "George" says the same thing and has no knowledge of "Fred". OSDD is a mixed bag of related disorders that each don't quite meet the DID requirements for different reasons. Shallan most resembles "OSDD type 1b."

Here's the quote about how it works:

"... individuals with OSDD-1b might experience their alters more as different versions of themselves, though they're more likely to experience a noticeable change in skills, memory, temperament, or overall personality. It is important to note that even the least differentiated OSDD-1b parts are still more differentiated, separate, and autonomous than the most developed parts that can be present in borderline personality disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, or complex posttraumatic stress disorder, none of which involve dissociated parts that have a unique sense of self or self history. ...  As well, some individuals with OSDD-1b do have highly distinct alters such as those often found in DID. For these individuals, the main defining factor is their lack of inter-identity amnesia."

On top of that, have a look at how the memory thing is important:

"... individuals with OSDD-1b do not black out or lose time. They may or may not have dissociative amnesia for aspects of their trauma history, but information flow between alters in an OSDD-1b system is much more consistent. While someone with DID might not realize that or when they lose time, someone with OSDD-1b is usually fully aware of their alters' activities and is very unlikely to find any evidence of unremembered activities. If they ever were to have a dissociative trance or fugue episode, it would be unassociated with their alters. They tend to struggle less with their memory on a day to day basis."

Anyone else think this could have been written about Shallan. She reads like a textbook case to me.

Just a quick thing about alts. There are two basic types; ANPs (apparently normal personalities) and EPs (emotional personalities). ANPs as their name suggests are the ones doing most of the day to day stuff. They are functional and may appear to be in complete control. They usually have a few coping mechanisms but when faced with an emotional situation they tend to "fail" because they are deliberately built to not handle heavy emotional struggles. That is where EPs come in. EPs have all the emotional elements of the personality put on them. They tend to be the alts that carry the person's history of abuse and the pain associated with it.

Regarding treatment. According to medscape (a medical resource I use for my studies  and is largely blocked by need for a subscription - tho you can  get some bits for free) and the BMJ best practice stuff (another resource that you definitely need a sub to), the main goal is to help the person re-integrate their alts into one personality. Note re-integrate. These are not imagined constructs of an unhealthy mind, they are part of the core. Plenty of people with DID and OSDD struggle with reintegration and many, with adequate support and learning new coping mechanisms can be functional people while still having alts. Most will eventually spontaneously start to reintegrate at some point, but it is a messy process (even at the best of times) and people without adequate mental resources (eg coping mechanisms for stress) in place at the time are at risk of fragmenting again which is also painful.

The mainstay of treatment initially is getting to a relationship of trust with the therapist. The second is to provide the client with different coping mechanisms that help them control the anxiety that causes them to shift identities. The third is to start talking about the past traumas that are the underlying cause of fragmentation (usually abuse during very early childhood, but there are plenty of of other situations that can cause it such as prolonged/repeated hospitalisation in infancy and childhood). This is the hardest bit and the reason that people with DID and related disorders are often in therapy for years. Without facing the pain of the past, the alts that are burying it won't be reintegrated into the whole. Some people manage to maintain a line of functionality by suppressing the alts with the pain. This may be a viable practice if the alt that identifies with the name on the person's birth certificate and remembers most of their autobiographical history, is otherwise an ANP. If the personality with the autobiography is an EP and suffers the pain of the memory, then it is much harder to achieve consistent and stable behaviour and thought patters without re-integration because the EP was essentially designed to feel the pain so the other alts don't have to.

In my mind, Shallan is an EP, Veil is an ANP and Radiant is a smaller fragment ANP. Shallan is the one who feels the pain and despite her own repression of memories, she does remember them. If she turns around, confronts the pain and accepts it, then (because this is  book and therefore likely easier than RL) she will likely reintegrate on her own. Please note; In all my reading on this subject I have not once come across the idea that it is ok to treat the alts differently. As an example, I have a brother and we get along great most of the time, but I sometimes get mad at him because he's a younger brother and therefore annoying as crem. That isn't treating him differently, he is still being treated as my brother in both settings. I can only get mad at him the way I do because he's my younger brother - no one else can get a rise out me like he can. I have been out drinking with him, but he doesn't become my "drinking buddy", he is my brother, who is also a friend, who I happen to be able to go out drinking with. In the same way, you can do different things with someone with OSDD or DID and treat them exactly the same way regardless of who they think they are at the time.

This is really important. Whilst a person with the disorder may think of themselves as different people, those who have reintegrated recognise that they simply had "different me's". All the facets of the core personality are represented once reintegration occurs. Obviously some alts are "bigger" and "more dominant" than others so reintegtion may result in a complete person that seems very like one of the alts. There will still be subtle differences - particularly in skills learned. For example, If Shallan has an alt called "Clown" and "Clown" is a tiny fragment of the whole but Clown learns to juggle. Then while Shallan is fragmented, the "Shallan", "Veil" and "Radiant" alts will not be able to juggle, but "Clown" can. When she reintegrates, Shallan will be able to juggle.

So anyway. Having now read the reddit beta read thread I am very concerned that BS has misrepresented a serious issue. OSDD and DID may not be common, but it isn't as rare as people think. It has also suffered the problem of being a useful literary device that people think they can play with to suit the needs of the narrative. That's why "multiple personality disorder" has such negative connotations now - it's been mischaracterised and misrepresented so badly. 

So what makes me concerned? Firstly, the idea that Adolin could recognise the "real" Shallan. IRL this is not possible because they are all real. Maybe the Shallan alt is the closest approximation to the complete Shallan, but that does't make Veil or Radiant (or "Clown" lol) any less a part of her. IRL anchoring an alt may allow an ANP alt to function in the long term, although they are always going to be at risk of deteriorating if they suffer emotional road-blocks. But anchoring an EP is not likely to last because they can't really cope - they were designed to suffer so that the rest of the system can function. It might work. It is still not as positive an outcome as reintegration has been found to be (multiple studies at this point according to my reading). Whilst people IRL need to judge their own particular situation themselves and decide (usually with the help of a therapist) what the best way to go is,  in a fictional setting, isn't it better to take the path the is recognised as the better one? You aren't trying to subvert a trope here after all.

Secondly, I am concerned that Shallan needed Adolin to "recognise" her in order for her to "stabilise". My inner feminist wanted to throw my book across the room about that. I didn't though because it's a kindle and my pragmatic side stopped me. Kaladin might have been "lightened" by Shallan in the chasm, but the impact of their relationship had no effect on his progression at the end of WoR as far as I can see.  Dalinar's progression is about his choice - Evi may have given him some ideas but she is not the cause of his ability to progress. Even Cultivation didn't know if his "growth" that she allowed would make him Odium's at the end. It didn't, because Dalinar made a choice. Shallan, on the other hand, needed Adolin to "see" her because she couldn't manage it on her own. Her "choice" was between 2 men. She didn't even consider that she didn't have to choose either of them, or that she could actually keep it going if she wanted to. I mean, really? She couldn't convince Adolin that she simply needed more time and that it wasn't that she wanted Kaladin more but that at 17 it wasn't unreasonable to be a bit flighty? No, she had to choose between them. 

Thirdly I am concerned regarding the whole Kaladin/Shallan arc. I don't mind that she ended up with Adolin per se though I am very worried that it seems to be a "love conquers all" moment (it doesn't). What I don't understand is why so much time was spent on the Kal/Shallan thing in the first place. Why tie so much of Shallan's main arc into a romantic subplot? So many of her scenes are either in the presence of Kaladin or Adolin. Taking OB and WoR together I wonder if it is most of them. I don't think this is true for Kal. Adolin is a side character so he gets less screentime overall, but we even get quite alot of scenes with him without Shallan. So my question is why? I loved the chasm sequence in WoR, but why add the romance element at all? You can bring two characters to a point of understanding without it getting romantic. Storms, we see that happen with Adolin and Kal! Why try to suggest that Kal is being "bad" for her by suggesting he suggests that she hides things? It is no worse than Adolin enabling her dissociation which is essentially allowing her to hide anyway. I don't understand why Shallan has to have her arc shown via a "love triangle" aspect to show how different sides of her are reacting. She had plenty of inner conflict (Ghostbloods vs Jasnah anyone?). Even if the romance was going to tie in to make it easier to follow, why not have it as her struggling between telling Adolin the truth and wanting to hide it in case he hates her. That is a huge inner conflict. It feels like Shallan as the 17 year old girl couldn't have possibly had an inner conflict that wasn't about boys. So not only can her resolution come from a big strong man, but she can only portray her inner conflicts via her crushes. 

Anyway, I know I am overreacting somewhat, but having now read the beta-readers thread including Sanderson's comments there, I am feeling almost as low as I did when I finished the book the first time (when I felt there were serious problems but had little evidence to back up those feelings) I had rationalised it to myself that we may get a continuation of the OSDD issues that Shallan is facing because you don't just "get better" from it without serious work. I know Sanderson says she has a "long way to go", but given this paragraph I am certain he feels that he is basically done with it down and it's mostly an upward trend for Shallan now:

"This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't [sic] quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)"

Ok, on one hand, I'm glad he got where he wanted because as an artist it is important to be able to convey your meaning. But I find the idea that he meant to make this so close to OSDD then completely betray the rational theories surrounding it's management disturbing. That's right, disturbing. If he was advocating not using vaccines for Polio there'd be an outcry, but because this is a mental health issue, he gets a pass? No. 

I also feel a bit betrayed on a personal level because I don't like getting misled. IIRC there was a conversation somewhere on this forum that he said that if he wrote a romance love triangle thing, he'd want it to be obvious to most readers where he was going to end up. I don't feel that way. A simple bit of misdirection in terms of a love triangle is a few scenes then a clear break. Not two books worth of foreshadowing followed by a break that feels forced because it relates to the supposed resolution of a different arc which, as I mentioned above, is unrealistic (at best). I know Shallan's main arc can't be resolved quickly. But then maybe think about portraying her OSDD differently? Give her some space at the end to come to terms with what she is going through, maybe let her understand Wit's advice - and that it is shown on screen. Let us see her interact with Adolin like a normal human being instead of "Without you I fade". Do real people even talk like that? 

Ok, rant over. I know a lot of this is personal and I get that other people are happy with the outcome so this isn't trying to criticise that feeling. In fairness, I loved the book until the very end and my concerns are now colouring how I view the rest of it. The other arcs are mostly wonderful and as usual Brandon does a fantastic job of worldbuilding. I loved seeing more of the Azish and getting more understanding of Venli. But that doesn't, for me, negate the issues I've described above.

[Calderis]

I guess the part that bothers me, is that everyone wants to link the two stories together. I'm with @Windrunner here.

Her mental state may have influenced her choice, but her choice doesn't influence her mental state. 

The idea that Adolin is going to somehow be her "Savior" now doesn't fit. A person can be supportive and be helpful, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't see Shallan hiding behind Adolin to fix her problems though. That's not the character that we've seen at any point. All he's going to do is be there for her. If he tried to "fix" her, it'd be no different than the times he tried to "protect" her that she detested so much. 

The romantic story, and her mental story arc are interconnected, because it's the same character. One is not reliant on the other though. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Hi @PhineasGage

I only have a few minutes for a quick reply, but a few things stood out for me:

That we know of I don't think Shallan created any personas/alts until very recently. In Earth terms she's nearly 20. Veil and Radiant aren't from Shallan's early childhood.

I don't see why you categorise Shallan as a EP instead of an ANP - Shallan has been the one doing everything in recent memory without any (known) personas/alts. Most people in-world consider Shallan to be relatively normal.

Adolin's ability to recognise Shallan's personas is directly related to her ability as a Lightweaver (as I understood it - hopefully the exact wording was recorded) because that's what gives him the visual cues and it's something anyone could do if they paid Shallan sufficient attention for a long enough period.

I don't know where Brandon went to for his research. It's possible that there's non-trivial differences in different parts of the world in terms of how such issues are diagnosed and treated.

I certainly agree with you on some things - too many things were skipped over too quickly or left too vague.

Regarding the romance, let's not get into that here. Feel free to PM me about that if you want a debate.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, @PhineasGage summed it up perfectly. However, I would just like to chime in. Long story short, I HAD OSDD type 1b. It was painful. Unpleasant. Reintegration was hell. This hurts. I have confirmation that Sanderson meant what he wrote. And it hurts. Any time I pick up a Sanderson book now, it will be with shame. The shame of an addict who is willing to betray his principles because he needs more. Because this ruined the cosmere for me. I do not mean to disparage anyone who loves it. I am in the minority here, and I know that. But this hurts. So much. It feels like one of the people I greatly admire, and hold high as a master craftsman has just kicked me in the gut and told me that I am worthless. Many will see this as an overreaction. That is your right. I am just being honest. It hurt me, enough to make me cry. Enough to make me remember every time I was bullied or otherwise treated as inferior due to who I am. Am I wrong to think a book shouldn't make someone feel that way?

[Dreamstorm]

Thanks for summarizing the info on DID/OSDD!  I know people talked about it, but this laid it out really well.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

It has also suffered the problem of being a useful literary device that people think they can play with to suit the needs of the narrative.

I think this is exactly what is happening here.  Possibly by reading a description of the symptoms of the disorder but not doing concrete research into it.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't [sic] quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

I don't see this as negatively as the WoB's posted above.  He's just saying it worked out in a way which syncs with where he wants to go, but not really where he wants to go (in future books.)  (Unlike in the WoB where he says he wants to go in the direction of this being a step forward for Shallan's emotional healing/development.)  I actually see this as better than the "Adolin grabbed my hand and saw the real me" implications, since at least this seems to be indicating he wanted Shallan and Veil to be seem as two personalities to one person instead of two people (with "Shallan" to be chosen and "Veil" to be pushed aside.)

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I am concerned that Shallan needed Adolin to "recognise" her in order for her to "stabilise". My inner feminist wanted to throw my book across the room about that.

Yeah.... this is incredibly, incredibly disappointing.  I get that some women do rely on men for their emotional stability and development, so it's not unrealistic per se (unlike the lack of realism in the OSDD portrayal), but also not the direction I ever want to see female characters evolve.  I now wish we could get Shallan out of the way, so we can get to (for me) more interesting, more independent and self-empowered characters like Jasnah  (To those who I've had this discussion with, I have actually become anti-Shallan even though I didn't feel I was before, sorry!)

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

What I don't understand is why so much time was spent on the Kal/Shallan thing in the first place.

I'm kinda of the opinion his mind was changed about where he was going with this, and as Shallan and Adolin evolved, he wanted to keep them and had to find out how to keep them without totally throwing his earlier plotting out of the window.  Like you said about going back to your original perspective, this was how I felt when I originally read the book (that it was a changed plot point), then I decided there was more here than I originally thought, but now I'm back to this opinion.  I haven't read all of this books, but for me this is the biggest "writing misstep" I've seen from him, which sucks considering the overall amazingness of SA!  But, this is the most ambitious project he's ever taken on, so it's understandable that things won't work out perfectly from a plotting perspective.  As someone said a couple days ago, it just makes you not trust the foreshadowing when you get such little payoff for a lot of groundwork laid.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Dreamstorm]

Sorry - I don't know how to edit and add quotes, so mods can feel free to combine.

19 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The romantic story, and her mental story arc are interconnected, because it's the same character. One is not reliant on the other though. 

Ugh, I disagree, by making the romantic connection a touchstone in Shallan "finding herself" it makes them reliant on one another.  How else was she to make this mental leap forward without having her man around to find the "real her"?  Adolin may not be a crutch, but he'll always be the person to "recognize" the "real her", which is what I'm (and I think others) are reacting to.

18 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

That we know of I don't think Shallan created any personas/alts until very recently. In Earth terms she's nearly 20. Veil and Radiant aren't from Shallan's early childhood.

I don't see why you categorise Shallan as a EP instead of an ANP - Shallan has been the one doing everything in recent memory without any (known) personas/alts. Most people in-world consider Shallan to be relatively normal.

Yeah, I agree with you.  I think Sanderson thought the symptoms sounded like an interesting platform, but in the end, this wasn't a real mental health disorder at play.  It was a fantasy disorder which used some elements of a real-world disorder.

14 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

However, I would just like to chime in. Long story short, I HAD OSDD type 1b. It was painful. Unpleasant. Reintegration was hell. This hurts.

I'm really, really sorry.  I'm hoping that eventually you can see this as fantasy, NOT an example of how the disorder really functions and is solved.  I feel let down too (from a different point of view which is personal (as a female), but not as painful), but in the end, it's just one dude twisting stuff around to make what he hopes is an interesting story.  It SUCKS that he had to pull incredibly personal, painful elements for you in order to make that story, but it's not actually a realistic portrayal so maybe eventually that will be ok.  (I know it doubly sucks because you thought, a lot of us thought, it was going to be realistic, so that is a huge letdown.)

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Adolin's ability to recognise Shallan's personas is directly related to her ability as a Lightweaver (as I understood it - hopefully the exact wording was recorded) because that's what gives him the visual cues and it's something anyone could do if they paid Shallan sufficient attention for a long enough period.

Huh? I had the impression, that it was because of her change in posture and facial expression. We only have one Adolin viewpoint where he sees how she changes. That, too, constitutes subtle visual cues. Especially when facial expressions are involved.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis]

Well, one last thing before I exit this thread I guess. 

At a certain point as readers, it's possible to become so invested in the story that you want to read that the story that actually exists is doomed to let you down. 

I see a lot of this in SA. Theories are great. Speculation is awesome. Getting set enough on those ideas that the story is disappointing when it goes a different direction though... Not so much. 

I hope you all enjoy the future books. I think I'm done discussing Shallan on the forums unless it's directly related to her magic. 

[PhineasGage]

37 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

 

The romantic story, and her mental story arc are interconnected, because it's the same character. One is not reliant on the other though. 

So I disagree here because her fluctuating between alts was often shown by the romantic arc. It wasn't necessary. On top of that, in order to stabilise her mental arc, she had to stabilise her romantic arc. It seems pretty tied up to me.

There are worlds in which they didn't have to be tied. I just don't think this was one of them.

37 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Hi @PhineasGage

I only have a few minutes for a quick reply, but a few things stood out for me:

Hey  I can answer the points you raised here. I am actually not worried about the ship continuing or not - once I realised I may have read Shallan all wrong I can't get behind any romance for her because I don't feel I can judge her well enough anymore. That's part of the problem though - I thought I had a handle on her, and apparently I don't. Its sad and I feel misled as I said.

That we know of I don't think Shallan created any personas/alts until very recently. In Earth terms she's nearly 20. Veil and Radiant aren't from Shallan's early childhood.

Alts don't usually present until teens or early adulthood. They are usually created during a crisis. Shallan doesn't fragment until OB imo. This is also pretty textbook.

I don't see why you categorise Shallan as a EP instead of an ANP - Shallan has been the one doing everything in recent memory without any (known) personas/alts. Most people in-world consider Shallan to be relatively normal.

"Shallan" - the alt who identifies as Shallan is an EP because she feels the pain of her past actions and tries to hide it. She has the autobiography (nb Veil talks about Shallan bonding as a child so she knows it happened but it isn't her biography). She also is the one who has the blackouts and timelapses - likely as a coping mechanism to help her avoid additional pain at times. Also, it is a necessity to have at least one EP and one ANP. Radiant and Veil are definitely ANPs because they are designed to not have to think about painful things.

Adolin's ability to recognise Shallan's personas is directly related to her ability as a Lightweaver (as I understood it - hopefully the exact wording was recorded) because that's what gives him the visual cues and it's something anyone could do if they paid Shallan sufficient attention for a long enough period.

Yes, but that doesn't matter IRL because even if lightweaving were a thing the fact you can tell which alt is driving doesn't stop them being one person. You can recognize Veil as being in the driver's seat at a time but still not think of her as any less "real" than Shallan or Radiant.

I don't know where Brandon went to for his research. It's possible that there's non-trivial differences in different parts of the world in terms of how such issues are diagnosed and treated.

Medscape is American and BMJ Best Practice is British. The BMJ guidance is based on data from NICE which is the organisation that reviews all international research for the UK Healthcare system and uses it to advise on best and most cost-efficient medical practice (as a note the fact that the therapy I described is recommended shows how much better it must be - therapy is very expensive and NICE hates expensive). Current medical practice doesn't actually differ that much if you want your doctor to be using the latest and most advanced techniques. People can choose to go to a Witchdoctor or Shaman if they like, but those practices are not as effective in terms of outcomes as standardised medical practice. *shrugs* it not really even up for debate.

32 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I actually see this as better than the "Adolin grabbed my hand and saw the real me" implications, since at least this seems to be indicating he wanted Shallan and Veil to be seem as two personalities to one person instead of two people (with "Shallan" to be chosen and "Veil" to be pushed aside.)

This may be true but then I still end up back at point one - ie don't portray a RL disorder badly. 

33 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Yeah.... this is incredibly, incredibly disappointing.  I get that some women do rely on men for their emotional stability and development, so it's not unrealistic per se (unlike the lack of realism in the OSDD portrayal), but also not the direction I ever want to see female characters evolve.

If Shallan were well and then she chose Adolin and relied on him for emotional support I'd actually be ok with it, not mad about the idea but ok. I just think there are too few female characters out there who have mental health problems who manage on their own. Jasnah may be one. But if she also get all lovey-dovey with someone I'm done. 

5 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

see a lot of this in SA. Theories are great. Speculation is awesome. Getting set enough on those ideas that the story is disappointing when it goes a different direction though... Not so much. 

I hope you all enjoy the future books. I think I'm done discussing Shallan on the forums unless it's directly related to her magic. 

I don't think this is what is happening here. It isn't a "theory" that Shallan has OSDD. If she were real person, it would be her diagnosis. The issue for people here is that a serious mental condition seems to have been badly portrayed based on the above comments. If Kal's depression had been equally badly treated then more people would have been up in arms. The alpha readers got an EMT in to make sure the surgery was decent and it reads like that. This reads like it maybe hasn't had equivalent care from a professional.

If SA4 turns that around then I will relax. It just doesn't sound like he is going that way. 

But if you don't want to discuss Shallan's main arc then that's up to you.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Well, one last thing before I exit this thread I guess. 

At a certain point as readers, it's possible to become so invested in the story that you want to read that the story that actually exists is doomed to let you down. 

I see a lot of this in SA. Theories are great. Speculation is awesome. Getting set enough on those ideas that the story is disappointing when it goes a different direction though... Not so much. 

I hope you all enjoy the future books. I think I'm done discussing Shallan on the forums unless it's directly related to her magic.

I wasn't trying to shoot you down!  Just disagreeing with you.  FWIW, I think Dalinar's main arc also can't be decoupled from his romantic arc with Evi.  The reason it bothers me less is this:  Dalinar's arc (once he remembers) goes mess, mess, mess, mess, healing, healing, Evi telling him he did the healing right (i.e. she forgives him.)  Shallan's arc goes mess, mess, mess, mess, Adolin solving it for her, healing, healing.  But you are 1000% right that a lot of my disappointment is that this is different from what I personally want to read.  I'm going to quote myself from a PM I wrote a couple of days ago to someone else:

Quote

But what I’m definitely doing is putting my ideals on Shallan. I want Shallan to want independence. I don’t want her choosing marriage to be a big self-discovery moment. I want Shallan’s romance to be ancillary to her doing a whole bunch of badass KR things instead of, to me at the end of OB, the glue holding her together. But, again, this is ME saying what SHALLAN should want. Which I can definitely see as me being anti-Shallan because I’m not accepting Shallan as she actually is, but wishing she was someone else.

So yeah, I want Shallan to be very different than how Sanderson wants Shallan to be.  And it's his character, so he get his way , but that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed in how he had her character evolve.  (I see her in WoK and WoR as taking major steps towards independence; this is a backtrack from what I wanted to see.)  BTW, just as a "alternate plot" note, if Shallan had come to the realization on her own after or during the TC battle that she was "Shallan" and then she walked up to Adolin and he recognized that she had made that choice, I would be much happier.  Not what happened, realize this is wishful thinking, but just as an illustration to pinpoint what bothers me.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

It isn't a "theory" that Shallan has OSDD. If she were real person, it would be her diagnosis. The issue for people here is that a serious mental condition seems to have been badly portrayed based on the above comments. If Kal's depression had been equally badly treated then more people would have been up in arms.

I think you're going to have to accept that Sanderson didn't portray the disorder realistically.  He used this as a plot device.  IIRC, he has a family member with depression, so he's seen that disorder's progression first hand and has said he is able to portray it better because of that.  If Sanderson hadn't had this experience with depression, we may be feeling differently about how Kal's depression was portrayed.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I am actually not worried about the ship continuing or not

Ha, I've been here for a while!  (When other posters bring up Kaladin as an integral part of Shallan's romantic arc, it's actually a little jarring because it's not even a part of my thinking.  From a writing and plotting point of view, yes, but not the emotional, character part.)  I don't know if that makes it any better, maybe actually worse.  There are a lot bigger problems with the arc than what guy was picked.  I almost wish it was just about that!

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Jasnah may be one. But if she also get all lovey-dovey with someone I'm done. 

Oh man, you just voiced what is now a HUGE concern of mine.  Not that Jasnah has a romance at all, but that it becomes a huge healing moment for her like it was for Shallan.  Now firmly on the "no romance for Jasnah" train to avoid this!

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

If SA4 turns that around then I will relax. It just doesn't sound like he is going that way. 

Yeah, I don't think it will either, and I think it'll always be, for me, a major disappointment of the series.  There are tons of other amazing things, but the portrayal of women in our society and how it's mirrored here does not make me happy.  But, though I know the mental health disorder aspect was bungled, I actually do see "relying on a man to make important decisions" to be realistic.  I get irritated with women about this IRL too, and I have had to pull myself back from the edge of judging other women for their decisions when their circumstances can make it hard to make a different decision.  I will endeavor to do this with Shallan (and Sanderson's decisions for her) as well.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dreamstorm
Sounded snotty

[PhineasGage]

20 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think you're going to have to accept that Sanderson didn't portray the disorder realistically.  He used this as a plot device.  IIRC, he has a family member with depression, so he's seen that disorder's progression first hand and has said he is able to portray it better because of that.  If Sanderson hadn't had this experience with depression, we may be feeling differently about how Kal's depression was portrayed.

That doesn't make it ok. If he hadn't got depression so right then he wouldn't have been given accolades, he'd have been criticized. He has a reputation of being good at this. His 2 forays into addiciton are amazing and no-one is saying that Teft and Dalinar have "magical addiction so it doesn't work the same was as RL". Because it is fairly obvious they do. 

25 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But, though I know the mental health disorder aspect was bungled, I actually do see "relying on a man to make important decisions" to be realistic.

Yeah, I am irritated but its not the end of the world. I would have liked to see Shallan break more tropes but maybe she still can. If she is getting better then maybe the baby thing is worth another look. I mean a year to heal from her problems is plenty if we think she's taken significant steps in her process in the space of 5 minutes.

[Dreamstorm]

58 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

That doesn't make it ok. If he hadn't got depression so right then he wouldn't have been given accolades, he'd have been criticized. He has a reputation of being good at this. His 2 forays into addiciton are amazing and no-one is saying that Teft and Dalinar have "magical addiction so it doesn't work the same was as RL". Because it is fairly obvious they do. 

I know, very frustrating.   It's part of the reason I'm telling myself that the plot was changed decently late in the game (post-WoR), which makes the arc not hang together like it should.  There are a number of ways it doesn't really line up (and even some from those happy with the outcome.)  It is interesting in the reddit post that Sanderson spends half the post discussing Shallan's romantic arc and how he had to work on it a lot, which makes me think it didn't flow for him as well as other arcs when crafting it.  SA is a massive, massive work (and by far the most ambitious and lengthy work Sanderson has done), so it makes sense some arcs won't come together well.  I just wish it wasn't one that bothered me so much 

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

BTW, just as a "alternate plot" note, if Shallan had come to the realization on her own after or during the TC battle that she was "Shallan" and then she walked up to Adolin and he recognized that she had made that choice, I would be much happier.  Not what happened, realize this is wishful thinking, but just as an illustration to pinpoint what bothers me.

I'm with you here. I was very much looking forward to finding out what happened to Shallan at the end of the battle, and when it was Radiant who was the 'real' image, it confused and disheartened me.

I'll also cop to being a shameless Shalladin shipper. There's too much foreshadowing that needs to be discarded now, and it makes me think less of Brandon as a writer. If it was always meant to be Shadolin, then it was done sloppily, and if he changed his mind while writing OB, it was still done sloppily. When I'm used to tight, well foreshadowed endings where all the clues are there. A causal betrothal isn't a clue, it's a prop. Shallan starting out on the Wind's Pleasure is a clue. And so forth. I'm with @PhineasGage in that I'm feeling misled and I'm not pleased about it.

It's a good thing I'm here for the apocalypse, not the romance. The reveals we had in OB were much better foreshadowed than Shallan's.....mess. The clues were not any clearer, but made sense in retrospect, and it's the Cosmere-level story that's going to keep me coming back, regardless if Jasnah gets a man or Shallan flits back and forth between men. 

Coming back to the point of this thread, I think the scene I quoted extensively is where Shallan finally broke into (at least) three. She wanted to go to Veil, but couldn't, forced the new persona of Radiant to take over, and firmly split herself into three.

[PhineasGage]

13 minutes ago, Rainier said:

There's too much foreshadowing that needs to be discarded now, and it makes me think less of Brandon as a writer. If it was always meant to be Shadolin, then it was done sloppily, and if he changed his mind while writing OB, it was still done sloppily. When I'm used to tight, well foreshadowed endings where all the clues are there. A causal betrothal isn't a clue, it's a prop. Shallan starting out on the Wind's Pleasure is a clue. And so forth. I'm with @PhineasGage in that I'm feeling misled and I'm not pleased about it.

It's a good thing I'm here for the apocalypse, not the romance. The reveals we had in OB were much better foreshadowed than Shallan's.....mess. The clues were not any clearer, but made sense in retrospect, and it's the Cosmere-level story that's going to keep me coming back, regardless if Jasnah gets a man or Shallan flits back and forth between men. 

Coming back to the point of this thread, I think the scene I quoted extensively is where Shallan finally broke into (at least) three. She wanted to go to Veil, but couldn't, forced the new persona of Radiant to take over, and firmly split herself into three.

Agreed - and some of it was potentially very subtle. I mean, I guess we can't call it foreshadowing now but it sure looked like it at the time. Especially given how well he foreshadowed in Mistborn. Some of it was feather light and so well crafted.

I guess I'm here for the desolation stuff too - but honestly, it has put me off doing too much analysis because how can I believe I can interpret anything now? Its could become a real problem for me because that is the primary reason I read fantasy epics. *shrugs* oh well.

Regarding the bit in bold, I think you are referring to the scene where she creates Radiant, yes? I didn't think she tried Veil - she discarded the idea because she couldn't have Adolin see Veil because of reasons. Ghostblood links or something I guess? 

Edited November 29, 2017 by PhineasGage
typo

[Rainier]

Just now, PhineasGage said:

Regarding the bit in bold, I think you are referring to the scene where she creates Radiant, yes? I didn't think she tried Veil - she discarded the idea because she couldn't have Adolin see her because of reasons. Ghostblood links or something I guess? 

Yes, by tried Veil I mean immediately thought to switch to Veil, before realizing what that would mean and abandoning it and being forced into codifying the third personality. She didn't want Adolin to know about Veil, or the Ghostbloods, at that point.

I threw in what I did about the Desolations and apocalypse because I see you and others say, "I'm done if such and so," and that's just so far from where I am. I'm a disappointed Shalladin shipper, but I'm all aboard the Stormlight Hype Train and while I've given up on a Sanderson series before (between Well and Hero in the Mistborn trilogy), I lived to regret giving up. 

But maybe I'll be a little less invested in the interpersonal relationships, and stick to magic and cosmere.

[Harbour]

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

That said, I was reading the Beta Reader AMA on reddit and @Harbour asked the general sentiment of the romantic "angle" (I don't dare to call it triangle anymore) in Oathbringer. There I have read, that Sanderson even convinced some very convicted Shalladin supporters with it.

I still shake my head wondering what exactly convinced Shalladin supporters betas. Its not that OB was full of hints on Shalladin being bad ship, neither it has alot of hints on Shadolin being the solid right design.

Some answers shocked me by how indignant they sounded. "Thanks god its over like that", "Its an oath, dont they dare to break it", "Kaladin is terrible for Shallan", "Kaladin always was just a friend for Shallan", "Adolin is so good because he picked the real Shallan".

Like, really? I wont ask how did they read the book. It just worry me that they might influence Brandon's story. I still secretly hope he rubbed his hands looking at misled betas, because that clearly was his intent to misled the readers who didnt read carefully.

[shawnhargreaves]

5 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

This website (http://did-research.org/comorbid/dd/osdd_udd/did_osdd.html) gives a good run down for those of you wanting more info, but I'll just quickly summarise it here.

@PhineasGage for Stormlight4 beta reader!   That was both well informed and well articulated.

[PhineasGage]

5 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

@PhineasGage for Stormlight4 beta reader!   That was both well informed and well articulated.

Ha I'm not saying I'd say no - though as I am probably already considered a troublemaker here I can't see it happening! 

I'm happy anyway - just sailing 'along' on the becalmed (or about to go over the edge of the world) SS Shalladin singing sea shanties and drinking cream (I'm the Ship's cat for those of you  who don't know what I'm getting at).

22 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Some answers shocked me by how indignant they sounded. "Thanks god its over like that", "Its an oath, dont they dare to break it", "Kaladin is terrible for Shallan", "Kaladin always was just a friend for Shallan", "Adolin is so good because he picked the real Shallan".

So I don't mind them feeling that way per se - they have as much right to feel that way as anyone does. I was surprised how vehement they were, but I think they feel partly responsible for the outcome of the book so I guess maybe took some of the implied criticism as criticism of them?

I'm going to try and drag this thread back to the original intent of it. (kicking and screaming if I have to)

So I think it is fair to say that we know Wit would consider Shallan to have started taking his advice. I think this implies that he did speak to her when she interfaced with Ashertmarn rather than anything else because she is "ruling" her alts, not accepting them at the moment.  Thoughts?

[kari-no-sugata]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Huh? I had the impression, that it was because of her change in posture and facial expression. We only have one Adolin viewpoint where he sees how she changes. That, too, constitutes subtle visual cues. Especially when facial expressions are involved.

Yes, there is that Adolin viewpoint of Shallan shifting to Veil while she looks at Kaladin in Part 4 where Adolin notes multiple things.There is another scene in Part 4 from Shallan's point of view where Adolin seems to be able to accurately tell that Shallan is Shallan at the time but it's rather vague. In the scene at the end that I asked Brandon about, Shallan is sitting down at the time and Adolin is only looking at her eyes (and Navani and Jasnah didn't seem to notice anything too unusual just prior). So, per Brandon, Adolin had gone a lot further than indicated in Part 4 and had learned to spot what persona Shallan was in based on more subtle cues - that Shallan visibly changes due to her Lightweaving each time she shifts personas, but the change is small enough that you wouldn't notice unless you were looking closely. So it's not overt visual cues like in Part 4, but something more subtle that's hard to describe. So from Adolin's point of view, he saw something strange was going on (Shallan was continuously cycling between personas) which is why he reacted quite different to Jasnah and Navani.

 

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't really get it. Dalinar basically was saved by Cultivation and not Evi. Evi was his guilt.

Without Evi, Dalinar wouldn't have felt guilt in the first place from The Rift, most likely. She humanised him enough. Without Evi, Dalinar wouldn't have been much different to Sadeas.

 

40 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'll also cop to being a shameless Shalladin shipper. There's too much foreshadowing that needs to be discarded now, and it makes me think less of Brandon as a writer. If it was always meant to be Shadolin, then it was done sloppily, and if he changed his mind while writing OB, it was still done sloppily. When I'm used to tight, well foreshadowed endings where all the clues are there. A causal betrothal isn't a clue, it's a prop. Shallan starting out on the Wind's Pleasure is a clue. And so forth. I'm with @PhineasGage in that I'm feeling misled and I'm not pleased about it.

I can't help you much here unless you want to know why I thought Shallan and Adolin was looked likely to work out based on the text since WoR. For example, I thought Shallan falling for Adolin at first sight was a pretty decent clue.

 

40 minutes ago, Rainier said:

It's a good thing I'm here for the apocalypse, not the romance. The reveals we had in OB were much better foreshadowed than Shallan's.....mess. The clues were not any clearer, but made sense in retrospect, and it's the Cosmere-level story that's going to keep me coming back, regardless if Jasnah gets a man or Shallan flits back and forth between men. 

Well, there is that line "until they had proclaimed that Jasnah Kholin's love would fail" in chapter 120. I suspect that refers to Dalinar.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So, per Brandon, Adolin had gone a lot further than indicated in Part 4 and had learned to spot what persona Shallan was in based on more subtle cues - that Shallan visibly changes due to her Lightweaving each time she shifts personas, but the change is small enough that you wouldn't notice unless you were looking closely.

Is that confirmed to be due to Lightweaving or are you assuming that? Facial expressions can be just as subtle.

18 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For example, I thought Shallan falling for Adolin at first sight was a pretty decent clue.

Yeah, he's hot. So? I would have been very surprised, if Shallan hadn't acknowledged that.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

53 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Some answers shocked me by how indignant they sounded. "Thanks god its over like that", "Its an oath, dont they dare to break it", "Kaladin is terrible for Shallan", "Kaladin always was just a friend for Shallan", "Adolin is so good because he picked the real Shallan".

This actually oddly makes me feel better that he got strong reactions and still gave us what he gave us.  At least it was intentional (for better or for worse.) 

24 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I think it is fair to say that we know Wit would consider Shallan to have started taking his advice. I think this implies that he did speak to her when she interfaced with Ashertmarn rather than anything else because she is "ruling" her alts, not accepting them at the moment.  Thoughts?

I still don't think it's Wit as we've seen zero evidence that he even has the capability to speak into someone's mind.  If he does, why does he need to be there in person to talk to everyone else (and throughout every Cosmere book I've read)?  We have seen plenty of evidence of shards and cognitive shadows talking into someone's mind, so we know that's a possibility.  But, I'm probably most of the view that this was a hallucination of Shallan and shows her "internalizing" Wit's advice, as this second set of advice is exactly what we see her doing in the end - dominating her "secondary" personalities.  That's different from how I read Wit's original advice, but from what Brandon has said, he sees this domination as her following it and a step in the right direction.

19 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I can't help you much here unless you want to know why I thought Shallan and Adolin was looked likely to work out based on the text since WoR. For example, I thought Shallan falling for Adolin at first sight was a pretty decent clue.

I'm actually curious to hear!  (Either PM or on this thread.)  I see lots of "cute moments" between them, and I'm on board with the idea they have a solid foundation (if I can get the yuck of grabbing hand, staring into eyes and seeing the "real" Shallan out of my head), but I don't see a lot of foreshadowing.  (Like, moments where in another chapter there's one little clue which points to "x" happening even though it's not at all talking about "x".)  But I'd like to know what you've found!

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Is that confirmed to be due to Lightweaving or are you assuming that? Facial expressions can be just as subtle.

From what I read of @kari-no-sugata's post (on the signing thread), I'm pretty sure Brandon himself said it was due to Lightweaving.

[Guest]

Just now, Dreamstorm said:

From what I read of @kari-no-sugata's post (on the signing thread), I'm pretty sure Brandon himself said it was due to Lightweaving.

Ah, okay. Still a bit weird, that we don't see it in the text though... Don't know what I should figure from that.

[ParadoxicalZen]

...I might be in the only camp that feels Shallan was done well. Her story has resonated with me since WoR (mainly due to going through similar scenarios myself,  relatively speaking of course). With her and Adolin's scene of him recognising her, I see it as her drawing from an anchor a la a close friend - someone she trusts - more than a romantic thing. I don't think most of the issues people have raised would have occurred had Shallan not had access to Lightweaving (or at least not as big an issue as others have said). She's definitely on the right track to healing, but she still has a fair way to go.

Wit's advice was pretty sound

 

[GoddessIMHO]

Would it have made a difference to anyone if instead of Adolin giving her the support and stabilizing 'love' that she desired and never had if it had been say , Navani, as a mother figure?

Using that to remove the male/female dynamic that seems to so irritate/enrage some of you.

[kari-no-sugata]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Is that confirmed to be due to Lightweaving or are you assuming that? Facial expressions can be just as subtle.

It does sound like that level of subtlety, maybe even more so, but I'm pretty sure Brandon specifically said there were visible shifts due to Lightweaving with the persona shifts. I remember thinking at the time that such a thing felt a bit creepy. Hopefully the exact words were recorded.

 

23 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm going to try and drag this thread back to the original intent of it. (kicking and screaming if I have to)

So I think it is fair to say that we know Wit would consider Shallan to have started taking his advice. I think this implies that he did speak to her when she interfaced with Ashertmarn rather than anything else because she is "ruling" her alts, not accepting them at the moment.  Thoughts?

I think that was Wit (decent case for him being able to do it, no good case I can see for anyone else) and I also think he was giving Shallan two options and yes she seems to have taken the 2nd option (rule over them) but I don't think she's doing it quite like a "king" yet. Not quite sure how to phrase it. It's almost like they're friends but with a big difference in social standing between Shallan and the others (ie friendly on the surface but Shallan can easily overrule the others).

It's hard to guess how Shallan+co might be like by the time the next book starts - I guess a lot will depend on how stressful she finds everything else that's going on (taking on more official responsibility and all sorts of bad things going on in the world).