[OB] Wit's advice

[insert_anagram_here]

Spoiler

“It’s terrible,” Wit said, stepping up beside her, “to have been hurt. It’s unfair, and awful, and horrid. But Shallan . . . it’s okay to live on.” 
She shook her head. 
“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.” 
“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears. 
“No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.” 
She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.” 
Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.” 
He picked up his pack, then unfolded something from inside it. Veil’s hat. He pressed the hat into her palm. 
Shockingly, morning light was shining in the doorway. Had she been here all night, huddled in this hole of a room? 
“Wit?” she asked. “I . . . I can’t do it. 
He smiled. “There are certain things I know, Shallan. This is one of them. You can. Find the balance. Accept the pain, but don’t accept that you deserved it.” 
Pattern hummed in appreciation of that. But, it wasn’t as easy as Wit said. She took in a breath, and felt . . . a shiver run through her. Wit collected his things, pack over his shoulder. He smiled, then stepped out into the light. 

In your opinion, did Shallan understand Wit's advice and did she take the correct steps based on that advice?

Did she achieve what she needed, or is she on a journey towards it?

Do you think Adolin helps her through this process and if yes, how exactly?

[kari-no-sugata]

This is hard for me to answer since it's the main problem I have with OB - it's too vague here. Particularly since Shallan has so obviously been shown to be an unreliable narrator for the whole series.

Wit seems to be saying that she is able to stand up because she has forgiven herself, but it doesn't really feel like she has. There's certainly no scene where she clearly forgives herself properly.

In the "Aim for the sun" chapter, Wit does also encourage her to be less down on herself / to be happy:

Quote

“Oh, bother that. You’ve got to live life, Shallan, enjoy life. Drink of what you’re proposing to give everyone else! That’s what I do.”

Well, she's certainly happy at the end.

For the scene quoted in the OP, there is a callback to this in chapter 97:

Quote

That has always been you, Shallan. You just have to admit it. Allow it.

"I'm trying, Wit," she whispered.

It feels like she does this in the last scene. She allows herself the right to have come this far, to allow herself to be happy, that it's okay to be happy, that it's okay to deserve this. After that she stops feeling embarrassed. Unfortunately, it feels rather corny. It also feels incomplete (even if we ignore her personas).

I think it would be highly unlikely that the next book starts with Shallan in a bad state. After all, that would be way too much of a repeat of OB. So, logically... I would expect her to be in a better place in the next book. She still has internal problems to solve of course. There's also her Final Ideal to deal with as well - I think her progress towards her Final Ideal will be a big part of the next book. So I think we're supposed to view Shallan in the end as having made real progress but also that further progress is still required.

Anyway, that's what logic tells me. But my inner cynic suggests that Shallan is going to revert to her bad old ways as soon as we turn our backs on her. This is because the text is much too vague on Shallan's progress at the end. Because of this, I'm having trouble accepting it emotionally (and it actually left me rather depressed after finishing reading the book).

Edit: With regards to Adolin... Shallan believes he helps her at least. 

He definitely does listen to her properly. Sometimes there's not much he can say but he does what he can to comfort and support her. She is more relaxed around him. She tends to be herself more around him. He helps Shallan regain dominance over her personas in the end. I personally thought it was really important that he told her that he just wants her (Shallan) as she is. This means she doesn't have to force herself around him, or to keep a mask on herself around him, or try to come up with new masks in order to please him.

I think Adolin approving of Shallan herself plays a big part in how she resolves her internal issues at the end. It helps give Shallan self-confidence and self-worth. I think it could have been portrayed much better but that's what I think is going on. It's rather subjective though and open to debate though, unfortunately.

Edited November 27, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Guest]

I see it simple. Wit told her to become the woman she always was and yes, one could interpret, that Shallan is back there at the end of OB, but Wit also told her, that she needs to be confident to return (implying that she doesn't need Veil and Radiant anymore) to the woman, that birthed her other minds and forgive herself (for killing her mother).

Shallan didn't achieve that.

Firstly, he talks about her other minds, which isn't the same as a traditional persona. So, she isn't really having personas, but rather split-off, alienated facets of her mind, which manifest in different personalities.

Would she recombine those, she would become the woman, that she always has been and who birthed Veil and Radiant. (Note, her idea for Veil actually came back in WoR - when she was whole - she just took Veil a step further. Plus, back then Shallan actually said, that Veil is a part of her.) And then she could finally forgive herself for killing her mother and accept the Truth she spoke. Because how can you forgive yourself, if you aren't yourself at the moment?

As for Adolin helping? I've already been very vocal about this, but I think, no. As long as he - even just indirectly, by treating Veil very differently from Shallan - encourages her to keep being fragmented, he doesn't help.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

  Reveal hidden contents

“It’s terrible,” Wit said, stepping up beside her, “to have been hurt. It’s unfair, and awful, and horrid. But Shallan . . . it’s okay to live on.” 
She shook her head. 
“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.” 
“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears. 
“No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.” 
She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.” 
Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.” 
He picked up his pack, then unfolded something from inside it. Veil’s hat. He pressed the hat into her palm. 
Shockingly, morning light was shining in the doorway. Had she been here all night, huddled in this hole of a room? 
“Wit?” she asked. “I . . . I can’t do it. 
He smiled. “There are certain things I know, Shallan. This is one of them. You can. Find the balance. Accept the pain, but don’t accept that you deserved it.” 
Pattern hummed in appreciation of that. But, it wasn’t as easy as Wit said. She took in a breath, and felt . . . a shiver run through her. Wit collected his things, pack over his shoulder. He smiled, then stepped out into the light. 

In your opinion, did Shallan understand Wit's advice and did she take the correct steps based on that advice?

Did she achieve what she needed, or is she on a journey towards it?

Do you think Adolin helps her through this process and if yes, how exactly?

I think the one thing we all can agree on is that at the end, "Shallan" is still split into three personas - Shallan, Veil and Radiant.  So I guess the answer to the first question hinges on whether Wit's advice is telling her to maintain that fractured personality.  Note that "Wit" in Shallan's confrontation with the unmade definitely is telling her to maintain that fractured personality.  If you believe "Wit" is Wit speaking into her mind, then yes, Wit thinks maintaining these separate identities is good.  If you think it's Shallan twisting Wit's word, then Shallan clearly thinks maintaining this fracture is good (which is not dispositive in any way for our discussion.  Shallan does not equal reliable narrator!)  If you think "Wit" was the unmade or Odium or any force of evil, then the answer seems clearly no, maintaining this fracture is bad.  As far as what the real Wit says, I'm inclined to believe he did not want her to maintain the fracture, and one of the main reasons why I believe that, is because Wit clearly says Shallan needs to accept pain, and it doesn't appear she has done that.  (Contrast this to Dalinar, on the field in front of TC and the agony we see him go through.  We certainly had no moment like that for Shallan.)  I think when/if Shallan confronts her pain, it will include her stopping pushing down the painful memories (killing her mother and Kaladin killing Heleran are the big ones we see her consciously push down repeatedly in the book) and accept them explicitly.  If anything, immediately after Shallan's "moment" when Adolin causes her to choose her dominant persona (or however you want to characterize it), we see her push down Radiant and Veil (she actually "stuffed them into the back part of her brain").  While she's still repressing and stuffing memories/personalities into the back part of her brain, I don't think she's accepting the pain like Wit tells her to do.  So, no I don't think she's taking the correct steps (because she's remaining fractured, and I think Wit wants her to integrate), and no, I don't think she achieved what she needed and is definitely still on a journey!  (Note that unlike Dalinar, Shallan has no power-up in this book.  I hope her true acceptance of her pain will be accompanied by a huge "moment" for Shallan, like Dalinar's was.  So, from a pure reader-enjoyment standpoint, I want to see that big Shallan moment!  If this was her "healing" and all we got was... wanting to get married (when look what we got for Dalinar and Kaladin in the past) well my feminist sensibilities are incredibly offended.)

As far as Adolin...  even if we assume fracture = bad, we haven't seen enough to know where Adolin stands on this issue.  He does say her switching into other people is bad and that he just wants to be with her (implying the actual consolidated her IMO), so in that sense he seems to support reintegration.  But then when Shallan mentions he acts differently around her different personalities (refusing to be intimate with Veil), this leans towards him actually increasing the fracture by treating each personality as a different "Shallan".  I'll withhold judgment on his actions until I see more.  For me personally, however (and I realize this is about what I want and not what anyone else would or should want from a story), I HATE the idea of Adolin "choosing" the real Shallan (the "That's the one" moment when he grips her hand) as being Shallan's moment of healing/self-actualization.  I cringe when I think that Kaladin (coping with Tien's death prior to assisting at the Tower; fighting his depression and lighteyes hatred prior to saving Elhokar) and Dalinar (alone on his knees in front of Odium before becoming Unity) had such incredible, spine-tingling moments of actualization which were so empowering, and our lead female character... relies on a man and gets married.  I would find that so offensive!! 

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think it would be highly unlikely that the next book starts with Shallan in a bad state. After all, that would be way too much of a repeat of OB. So, logically... I would expect her to be in a better place in the next book. She still has internal problems to solve of course. There's also her Final Ideal to deal with as well - I think her progress towards her Final Ideal will be a big part of the next book. So I think we're supposed to view Shallan in the end as having made real progress but also that further progress is still required.

I totally, totally get that.  I don't think anyone (or not many of us, haha) want to see Shallan agonizing over her fractured personalities again.  But... they are still there.  So I guess we either accept them as OK and the issue is done or else we have to explore them more?  I'm with you, though, if this was a big "moment" for Shallan, it was underwhelming (and for me as a feminist, infuriating.) 

[As an aside, how does one split up one post into multiple quotes?  I have seen others do it, but I can't figure out how.]

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

[As an aside, how does one split up one post into multiple quotes?  I have seen others do it, but I can't figure out how.]

Select the passage you want to quote and click on the appearing "Quote this"

[Calderis]

Yeah... Shallan is improving, but has a ways to go yet. 

Her weird council of personalities at the end is... Maybe better, maybe worse. There's no real integration of personalities yet, and that's what she needs. 

[insert_anagram_here]

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He picked up his pack, then unfolded something from inside it. Veil’s hat. He pressed the hat into her palm. 

Is that Bluth's hat from WoR?

[kari-no-sugata]

15 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Is that Bluth's hat from WoR?

Quite possibly. Veil uses a white hat and a white coat. Bluth's hat was white and Shallan traded for it.

[insert_anagram_here]

16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

In the "Aim for the sun" chapter, Wit does also encourage her to be less down on herself / to be happy:

Quote

“Oh, bother that. You’ve got to live life, Shallan, enjoy life. Drink of what you’re proposing to give everyone else! That’s what I do.”

Well, she's certainly happy at the end.

Honestly, I do not think she is happy at the end. If a part of her is happy, it's only 1/3 since Veil and Radiant did not chose to get married to Adolin in the end. Instead they remain a separate part of her.

 

 

 

Quote

“What is power to you, Shallan?” “It’s . . .” Shallan cut at the cremling, separating it from its shell. “It’s what I said earlier—the ability to change things.” “Things?” “Other people’s lives. Power is the ability to make life better or worse for the people around you.” “And yourself too, of course.” “I don’t matter.” “You should.” “Selflessness is a Vorin virtue, Wit.” “Oh, bother that. You’ve got to live life, Shallan, enjoy life. Drink of what you’re proposing to give everyone else! That’s what I do.” “You . . . do seem to enjoy yourself a great deal.” “I like to live every day like it’s my last.” 

And actually Wit didn't encourage her to be happy exactly. She was encouraging her to use her power for herself and not only for other the people around her. So I would argue that he wanted her to be less self-sacrificing. As in, stop creating personalities to please other people. And the fact that she belittles herself and if her opinion matter is something repeated in OB.

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Problem was, Veil wanted to spend her days drinking and laughing with the men, practicing espionage. Radiant wanted to practice with the sword and spend time around Adolin. What did Shallan want? And did it matter? 

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And Shallan . . . what did Shallan want again? Did it matter? Why bother worrying about her?

 

 

 

16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For the scene quoted in the OP, there is a callback to this in chapter 97:

Quote

That has always been you, Shallan. You just have to admit it. Allow it.

"I'm trying, Wit," she whispered.

 

I think you missed the meaning of what "that" refers to. "That has always been you" refers to the "I see only one woman here,”, meaning all these personalities are one person. They aren't separate people.

 

 

15 hours ago, SLNC said:

Wit also told her, that she needs to be confident to return (implying that she doesn't need Veil and Radiant anymore) to the woman, that birthed her other minds

I agree. I think this is what handing her Veil's hat signifies. It means, "Remember where you got this hat? You got it from Bluth. That's back when when you were inspired to create Veil, as another part of herself. You need to go back to the point where you got this hat". In Chapter 42 of WoR, it says:

Quote

There, she dug out Bluth’s white hat, the one with the sides that folded upward at a slant. Hopefully it would look better on her than it had on Bluth. She put it on, and when she returned to the mirror, she was pleased with how it shaded her face. It did look kind of silly. But then, she felt that everything about this outfit looked silly. A gloved hand? Trousers? The coat had seemed imposing on Tyn—it indicated experience and a sense of personal style. When Shallan wore it, she looked like she was pretending. She saw through the illusion to the frightened girl from rural Jah Keved. Authority is not a real thing. Jasnah’s words. It is mere vapors—an illusion. I can create that illusion . . . as can you. 

I think I've already established that I agree with you on most points @SLNC on the KSA thread. I wanted to see more arguments on the opposite side to be honest.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

If anything, immediately after Shallan's "moment" when Adolin causes her to choose her dominant persona (or however you want to characterize it), we see her push down Radiant and Veil (she actually "stuffed them into the back part of her brain").  While she's still repressing and stuffing memories/personalities into the back part of her brain, I don't think she's accepting the pain like Wit tells her to do

Yes, I agree with you completely on this. And I understand how it is all cringe-worthy from a feminist point of view as well @Dreamstorm

Edited November 28, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Erunion]

Hmm, I think it’s pretty clear that Shallan still has a loooong way to go, and it will end either in tears or in a Crowning Moment of Awesome. She hasn’t had that yet - unlike Kaladin/Dalinar. 

 

On Adolin with Shallan. He’s not fixed her, and he’s not fixing her. He’s not her cure - he’s her Tylenol. He helps her, makes things hurt less, and makes things better/easier for her, but he doesn’t and hasn’t cured her. 

As Tylenol, he’s both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because he helps her understand, function and survive. A curse in that she doesn’t need Tylenol, she needs surgery and she needs to want it. Adolin may take away her need/desire to actually heal, as she’s able to function around him. This is very dangerous. 

 

I suspect that Shallan has a lot of work to do, and will get her CMOA where she actually confronts and deals with her problems. And it won’t be because of Adolin fixing her. (As much as I like Adolin. Not as much as @maxal, but I think he’s pretty great and want to see more of his own character growth). 

[kari-no-sugata]

43 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Honestly, I do not think she is happy at the end. If a part of her is happy, it's only 1/3 since Veil and Radiant did not chose to get married to Adolin in the end. Instead they remain a separate part of her.

It's not like they're all equally important. Shallan is the dominant personality at the end, as she should be. It's not clear but it seems that Veil and Radiant appear at the same time because Shallan intentionally called them, not because they showed up involuntarily. They fade away together as well. So my best guess is that this is showing that Shallan is in control (as Wit suggested, though how precisely is debatable) and that she has been this way since she decided to take control after the end of the battle. It feels to me like Shallan is treating them like personal advisors to a ruler (her). Shallan has final authority but let's them have their say.

Shallan does actually say this:

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“We’re decided upon this,” Shallan said.“

A worthy union,” Radiant said.“

He’s good for you, I suppose,” Veil said. “Plus he knows his wine. We could do far worse.”

“But not much better,” Radiant said, giving Veil a pointed look. “This is good, Shallan.”

“A celebration,” Veil said. “A celebration of you.”

“It’s okay for me to enjoy this,” Shallan said, as if discovering something precious. “It’s all right to celebrate. Even if things are terrible in the world, it’s all right.” She smiled. “I . . . I deserve this.”

Radiant is certainly for it. Veil isn't enthusiastic but certainly isn't opposing and is also happy for Shallan.

 

43 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And actually Wit didn't encourage her to be happy exactly. She was encouraging her to use her power for herself and not only for other the people around her. So I would argue that he wanted her to be less self-sacrificing. As in, stop creating personalities to please other people. And the fact that she belittles herself and if her opinion matter is something repeated in OB.

He tells her this in "Aim for the sun":

Quote

“Oh, bother that. You’ve got to live life, Shallan, enjoy life. Drink of what you’re proposing to give everyone else! That’s what I do.”

I agree with the rest of what you say apart from "stop creating personalities to please other people" - he never explicitly tells her to stop using personas and it's not like that's why Shallan is creating personas in the first place. He very much encourages to take control of them and that being Shallan should be more appealing, amongst other things. If we assume it is Wit talking to her remotely (I'd say almost certainly) then he's either suggesting she treats life as a myriad of roles to experience or alternatively to rule her personas like a king.

 

43 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I think you missed the meaning of what "that" refers to. "That has always been you" refers to the "I see only one woman here,”, meaning all these personalities are one person. They aren't separate people.

I think you have to read it in the full context:

Quote

“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears.

“No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.”

She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.”

Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.”

So basically, he's saying: Yes you can control them, you are better (more wonderful) than your personas, you are worth protecting, it's you who has been the one standing up all this time, it is you who is strong (not your personas). He's encouraging her to believe in herself, to like herself, to value herself. (This is shortly after Shallan calls herself worthless)

The first step that Shallan has to make on her path to recovery is to do this. It has to come first. Finalising what she does with her personas can only come after that - they are a symptom of her problem, not the problem itself. To quote a phrase - "Don't let perfection get in the way of progress".

(Well, perhaps forgiving herself is the real first step though it's kinda unclear if she has really done this or not. Wit seems to be saying that she has but it doesn't quite feel that way)

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Yes you can control them, you are better (more wonderful) than your personas, you are worth protecting, it's you who has been the one standing up all this time, it is you who is strong (not your personas). He's encouraging her to believe in herself, to like herself, to value herself. (This is shortly after Shallan calls herself worthless)

No, what Shallan says is that she'll never control it. Which means her fracturing and switching. This is not about taking control of her personas, but about forgiving herself and returning to the woman, that birthed Veil and Radiant, which means, that she shouldn't need them anymore.

See, I don't think Wit talked with her during the melding with Ashertmarn. It was either Ashertmarn himself, or Shallan's subconscious. Wit telling her to rule her personas is absurd, when he was suggesting something completely different before that.

Wit knows things and Pattern is definitely more distant, Shallan is severely straining her bond by not acknowledging, who she is. She is a Lightweaver, she needs to be self-aware. That is their thing. Even if she were in complete control of her personas, that wouldn't change the fact, that she isn't herself. And how can she forgive herself, if she isn't herself? How can she accept the truth she spoke, when she is still hiding behind her personas, who only exist, because she doesn't want to acknowledge her truth.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[insert_anagram_here]

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Shallan has final authority but let's them have their say.

I agree that at the end of OB she has the authority and she manages to rule them, but I don't think that was Wit's advice. Maybe Wit inside Ashertmarn wasn't the real one? From 'The girl who stood up'-point until her confrontation with Ashertmarn, none of the other two personalities emerged. And they didn't emerge for some time after that as well, but I'll come back to that later. So it was like she was starting to get better, but the advice to 'rule' them confused her.

 

 

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It's not like they're all equally important.

I agree that they are not equally important, BUT the dominant-Shallan personality is not a whole personality. I've been thinking a lot about the hat Wit gave her, and I think it is a sign as to look on 'when' she started creating these personalities, so she can understand what part of her they represent. 

How I intepret the personalities is: Veil is the one that 'does what Shallan wants, but it's not socially acceptable' and Radiant 'does what Shallan doesn't want, but it's what is socially acceptable'. Veil listens to her urges, she doesn't have inhibitions, emerges in the thrill of espionage and expresses herself crudely. Radiant was created when Shallan was rushed to use Pattern-blade for practice, even though she was feeling afraid of him after realizing the truths about her parent's deaths. But using Pattern-blade was a reality she would have to accept as part of being a KR. 

I think the fact that both Veil and Radiant still exist separately from Shallan, is proof that she hasn't made progress. 

 

 

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think you have to read it in the full context

Actually I can argue the same thing back to you, but let's keep it civil.

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“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.” 
“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears. 

It's much more appealing to push responsibilities on another person, but you never gain the pride of accomplishment when someone else fulfills them. 

It's much more appealing to let another person do all the urges and mistakes, but you never get the chance to release and express yourself freely. (don't forget that she believes Veil as 'broken' at this point and that's what initiates the whole conversation)

edit: And it's more appealing to separate them from herself, because she hasn't forgiven herself, and her self-hate wants them as separate beings. She believes they are better than her, that's why they can't be a part of her hateful self.

 

 

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

 

Quote

“Oh, bother that. You’ve got to live life, Shallan, enjoy life. Drink of what you’re proposing to give everyone else! That’s what I do.”

I agree with the rest of what you say apart from "stop creating personalities to please other people"

Again, you've taken the phrase out of context I think.

Quote

Power is the ability to make life better or worse for the people around you.”

“And yourself too, of course.”

“I don’t matter.”

“You should.”

“Selflessness is a Vorin virtue, Wit.”

“Oh, bother that. You’ve got to live life, Shallan, enjoy life. Drink of what you’re proposing to give everyone else! That’s what I do.” 

She want's to be selfless for the people around her, when she uses her powers. Yes, the personalities revolve around how people 'see Shallan as'. See my second point above.

Edited November 28, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Radiant was created when Shallan was rushed to use Pattern-blade for practice, even though she was feeling afraid of him after realizing the truths about her parent's deaths. But using Pattern-blade was a reality she would have to accept as part of being a KR. 

Regarding this I had written up something in the now locked KSA discussion thread, which I think fits here too, but I removed the shippy bits.

---

The way I see it: Shallan has an identity problem (heh, hear me out, please ), kind of like Kaladin had in WoR. He wasn't sure if he really wanted to embrace becoming a Knight Radiant, because for him, that would have meant becoming lighteyed. He was torn between his desire to protect and his hate for lighteyes, which led him to kill Syl until he had an epiphany at the end of the book. With Shallan it is similar, I think, as everyone is calling her a Radiant, but she herself doesn't identify as one, because all it ever did was bring her unhappiness and pain. She is more than capable, but not willing, going so far to even split off the parts of her personality, that give her the ability to how she thinks a KR should be, to a different personality called Radiant. Shallan just seeks happiness, but is afraid of the pain of attaining the happiness through acceptance of her past. I keep going back to what Tyn said:

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"But here's the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they're not real. We can't let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn." [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. "When a good con woman dies, it's usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then..."

Shallan is basically lying to herself, and believes those lies, by creating this dream of just being happy with Adolin, while she actually needs to be a Knight Radiant, a Lightweaver, to be precise, which walk the path of attaining self-awareness. She is doing the complete opposite. She is denying being self-aware by pushing away every unwanted feeling towards those personas she has created and alienated from her core personality. She keeps her personas and thinks she can juggle it. Be the Lightweaver by being those personas sometimes and being the optimized Shallan, who is the happy wife to Adolin. But, here's the thing, to be self-aware also includes to be aware of ones faults and failures, which is the quintessence of what Wit is trying to tell her. Shallan is all of it. Optimized Shallan, Veil, Radiant, her failures and her pain. And even with all of these perceived 'bad' things, she is still a wonderful woman, that deserves to exist. That isn't useless.

I think, that Pattern's bond to Shallan is slowly, but surely dissolving and fraying, the signs are there (He warns her once, drowsily I might add, and becomes very distant during Oathbringer). Right now, Shallan is ignoring it, because she has chosen momentary happiness with Adolin, will it last? We'll see, but she can't stay a Lightweaver like that, because she's actively working against an Ideal, that she killed her mother, that she spoke, which brings me to the parallelism with Kaladin.

Kaladin was torn between his hate for lighteyes and being a Knight Radiant, to the point of killing Syl by betraying his oaths.

Shallan is torn between the hate for herself and being a Knight Radiant, to the point of severely straining her bond with Pattern by not acknowledging her Ideal.

Edited November 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis]

My opinion of Wit's advice there, is that the personas are fine. As long as they are an act. 

The issue is that they become dominant in her mind, while that should stay Shallan. She needs to stay in control, not abandon them. The difference would be that we  own longer see "Veil" or "Radiant" PoVs, because they'd be a part of Shallan. 

[PhineasGage]

45 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

My opinion of Wit's advice there, is that the personas are fine. As long as they are an act. 

The issue is that they become dominant in her mind, while that should stay Shallan. She needs to stay in control, not abandon them. The difference would be that we  own longer see "Veil" or "Radiant" PoVs, because they'd be a part of Shallan. 

Interesting way of looking at it - I'd read it a little differently - Wit uses the emotions of others around him in his OB epilogue to create a mask/illusion so he can sneak through the palace gardens.

Quote

He passes groaning humans crying for deliverance, for mercy. He absorbed that, letting it reflect in him.

This may because he uses Yolen magic, but I think that it is as likely that it is because he has more understanding of the power than Shallan. Shallan definitely uses herself to fuel her lightweaving. Anyway, my point is that Wit doesn't split in any way - he reflects others. This is an interesting comparison to Shallan who says that she puts others into her drawings but doesn't do that with her lightweaving imo. I agree that Veil or Radiants can be acts, but it isn't about being in control of them, it is that there shouldn't be anything to control in the first place. 

This is important because Shallan's illusions likely use a blend of illumination and transformation - she soulcasts to make her illusions more real. In her case she uses her own soul/memories/experience and this hurts. A lot. She is essentially soulcasting herself over and over again - who knows what kind of damage that could be doing. Wit, in comparison uses his illumination more like a lens or a mirror - he uses the power of someone else's pain and focuses it through his magic to create illusions. That pain probably doesn't touch his soul and it isn't being taken or changed from the person whose situation he is using. A magnifying glass is rarely burned by having sunlight go through it after all. Though it can burn other things and you can focus it differently to get different results. 

I think this is what Shallan should be aiming at.

In terms of whether I think Shallan is following Wit's advice, I have talked about it elsewhere and don't want to repeat my arguments in full - most of the people who have posted here have read those arguments afaik so it seems a bit redundant. Suffice to say, I think she is trying, but it is hard to follow advice that you don't really understand. I don't think she is anywhere close however.

Regarding her split I think some maths will come in handy here:

1 + 2 + 3 = 6

Here the complete Shallan is 6. The Shallan persona (let's call her pseudoShallan) is 3, the Veil persona is 2, and the Radiant persona is 1. 

If we want to get to the real Shallan we need all three of 1, 2 and 3. If we only take a couple of them, we don't get to 6. This means that while pseudoShallan is a big part of getting us to 6, she isn't enough. We still need 2 and 1. PseudoShallan is a good approximation of Shallan proper, especially to people who aren't looking for number 6, because she can fit in and do the things Shallan proper can do in the vast majority of situations where she finds herself. The problem comes when she finds herself in a situation that she can't handle (like holding PatternBlade and practicing) so she switches personas. A person without a split doesn't have to do this because they have access to their full arsenal of personality traits all at once and are able to use multiple coping mechansims and choose the best depending on the situation. A fractured personality like Shallan's has much more limited options - switch, or black out are her only two most of the time.

[kari-no-sugata]

Taking a step back about - what actually is Wit's advice? I would say it's mostly about solving the "root cause" of Shallan's issues. I would say that her personas are really a recent symptom of her issues and the root cause goes much deeper - I think some readers are focusing on the personas too much (they're new and shiny after all).

So what are Shallan's issues? Looking at it generally - lack of self-belief, lack of self-respect, lack of self-trust, lack of confidence, lack of self-worth, etc (yes those all overlap a lot). In short, she has a highly negative opinion about herself. We see all this since the start of tWoK, to varying degrees and more in WoR. We get to the trigger for this at the end of WoR - that Shallan killed her mother. Rather than describing the general Shallan we've seen since the start as a persona I would say it's more like that she got into the habit of ignoring painful things, trying to focus on positive things, trying to ignore her problems etc. Despite her problems, Shallan still wants to achieve things so actively tries to work around her problems. However, she can no longer do that in OB. Her old methods no longer work well enough and the pain is too much be endure, hence the new symptom of the personas.

I would say that the root cause of Shallan's problems is the overwhelming mental pain from the things she was forced to do, with her other issues flowing from that, directly and indirectly. So Wit's advice is mostly about facing that pain and the associated issues. That Shallan's pain is natural but also not something she has to accept. She doesn't deserve to be in pain. That she is stronger than she believes and can cope with it. That she has value. That she deserves to exist and that it's better for the world that she does. That it's better to "see" and accept the consequences than to blind herself. To accept what happened, to move on, to became a more positive person.

Unfortunately, Shallan's state at the end is rather unclear. If we accept her final scene as presented then she is finally able to be positive about herself. I would say that Adolin indirectly played a key role by being an example of someone who valued Shallan herself very highly. Essentially, that Shallan could (finally) believe in Adolin's love for her and feel that she deserved it. So after delaying the wedding (as Part 2 hints at) she accepts and it becomes a tangible step forwards.

[PhineasGage]

26 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I would say that the root cause of Shallan's problems is the overwhelming mental pain from the things she was forced to do, with her other issues flowing from that, directly and indirectly. So Wit's advice is mostly about facing that pain and the associated issues. That Shallan's pain is natural but also not something she has to accept. She doesn't deserve to be in pain. That she is stronger than she believes and can cope with it. That she has value. That she deserves to exist and that it's better for the world that she does. That it's better to "see" and accept the consequences than to blind herself. To accept what happened, to move on, to became a more positive person.

I agree with much of your post, though I do want to point out that Shallan's dissociation is simply the latest symptom of her fragile self-image. It's not that it is different, it is that she has worsening symptomatology in a condition that is made up of layers and layers of past hurts. The latest hurt (the fight with Reshephir) was too soon after the previous one (her admitting she killed her mother) so she splintered. People with Shallan's history don't always dissociate, indeed many won't. It depends how many and how quickly the blows come.

Regarding the bit I put in bold in the quote. Wit is very clear about this (and it fits in with what a therapist would advise IRL) - Shallan does need to accept the pain. He says "It is alright to hurt". Hurting doesn't make Shallan weak, facing it makes her strong. She also has to accept that she didn't deserve to be hurt. How can she say she doesn't deserve the damage done to her if he won't accept that damage was done? I feel the rest of what you wrote lines up with this so perhaps that is what you were aiming at?

[Guest]

@kari-no-sugata

(I'll use properShallan for the complete Shallan we've seen in WoK and WoR and pseudoShallan for the current Shallan part of the trio)

Agreed on almost all points, but one.

Accepting pain is very important in life, (psychological) pain is just an emotion, you push through it and it leaves you stronger. I know, that there are different severities of pain and this is very simplified, but it is the quintessence.

Deserving pain? No, that line of thinking is wrong and I think that is where Shallan's problem lies. She thinks she deserves it. But she shouldn't, that I agree with.

Now, we have the problem of the the personality split. I wouldn't call them a symptom of the trauma, but rather a consequence. They are Shallan's way to distract herself from being properShallan. She shatters herself, to not be that thing, that she hates so much to be.

For her to get over her feelings, that she deserves the pain, she first needs to reach properShallan again. (Wit tells her exactly that: "[...] returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you." -> returning! Which means that Shallan once already has been that person. And it is properShallan.)

Now, Adolin... Yes, Adolin gives her a sense of self-worth. I mean being loved does that, but he gives it to pseudoShallan, not properShallan. This distinction is so important. Veil and Radiant are parts of her. Shallan herself says it in WoR when she first creates Veil, that she put in a part of herself.

Edited November 28, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree with much of your post, though I do want to point out that Shallan's dissociation is simply the latest symptom of her fragile self-image. It's not that it is different, it is that she has worsening symptomatology in a condition that is made up of layers and layers of past hurts. The latest hurt (the fight with Reshephir) was too soon after the previous one (her admitting she killed her mother) so she splintered. People with Shallan's history don't always dissociate, indeed many won't. It depends how many and how quickly the blows come.

Regarding the bit I put in bold in the quote. Wit is very clear about this (and it fits in with what a therapist would advise IRL) - Shallan does need to accept the pain. He says "It is alright to hurt". Hurting doesn't make Shallan weak, facing it makes her strong. She also has to accept that she didn't deserve to be hurt. How can she say she doesn't deserve the damage done to her if he won't accept that damage was done? I feel the rest of what you wrote lines up with this so perhaps that is what you were aiming at?

Just about to rush out so quick reply: Yep, that's what I meant, thanks.

[Rainier]

The most important thing to remember with Shallan is what Words of Radiance (the in-world book) says about Lightweavers.

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Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.

This is what we need to be looking for when we're examining if Shallan is progressing or regressing, and whether she's going to be in a good spot or a bad spot come SA4p1.

I think @SLNC has done a good job of striking to the heart of this by separating True-Shallan from Mask-Shallan (proto and pseudo, in his terminology)

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

Shallan is basically lying to herself, and believes those lies, by creating this dream of just being happy with Adolin, while she actually needs to be a Knight Radiant, a Lightweaver, to be precise, which walk the path of attaining self-awareness. She is doing the complete opposite. She is denying being self-aware by pushing away every unwanted feeling towards those personas she has created and alienated from her core personality.

 

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

Shallan is torn between the hate for herself and being a Knight Radiant, to the point of severely straining her bond with Pattern by not acknowledging her Ideal.

 

As to Wit, I've got to believe that he's telling her to remember the original Shallan, the original girl-person who birthed all the other facets. This makes sense coming from him because it's what he's done since time immemorial. Whether he's Wit, Hoid, Midius, Cephandrius, or any of his other aliases or personae, he remembers who he really is, what he's really doing, and what he really cares about. He keeps his masks on at all times but never forgets who is wearing the mask in the first place. I'm not certain what's going on in the Heart of the Revel, but I don't think Shallan is hearing from Wit because the advice doesn't match what we know Shallan needs to do.

I also want to point out what Wit/Hoid says to the Cryptic as he bonds it: I've got plenty of secrets. He knows that self-awareness, acknowledging secret or hidden truths, is the path to increased powers and sanctuary for the spren. 

As for Adolin, I'm as certain as I can be that he's in love with Mask-Shallan, as we're regularly reminded that Shallan is trying to make herself into the person he would want to marry. She succeeded, and married him with that persona. When Shallan was flipping through personalities and fixed on the one Adolin recognized, that was her selecting the persona created specifically for him.

Here's where the Brightness Radiant persona is christened, edited for brevity:

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But… thinking of what she’d done pained her. Holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse.

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

...

...

“Mmmm,” Pattern said. “This is good. This needs to be done.”

Shallan scrambled through the room to the small mirror she’d hung from the wall. She stared at herself, eyes wide, hair an utter mess. She’d started breathing in sharp, quick gasps. “I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.”

Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another.

Sweat trickled down Shallan’s face, running beside her eye as she stared at herself. What did she expect to see? The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension. Her every muscle grew taut, and the corners of her vision started to darken. She could see only before herself, and she wanted to run, go somewhere. Be away.

No. No, just be someone else.

Hands shaking, she scrambled over and dug out her drawing pad. She ripped pages, flinging them out of the way to reach an empty one, then seized her charcoal pencil.

Pattern moved over to her, a floating ball of shifting lines, buzzing in concern. “Shallan? Please. What is wrong?”

I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place.

“It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.”

A high-pitched whine started to rise in the room, one Shallan didn’t immediately recognize as coming from the back of her own throat. Pattern’s words were like knives to her side. No, please. Just draw.

...

A woman who hadn’t been sheltered. A woman hard enough, strong enough, to wield this sword. A woman like… like Jasnah.

Yes, Jasnah’s subtle smile, composure, and self-confidence. Shallan outlined her own face with these ideals, creating a harder version of it. Could… could she be this woman?

I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her.

So much to unpack here, but I think it's the heart and soul of what's happening to Shallan over the course of the book. She's afraid and wants to hide, so creates a persona to hide behind. Look at Patterns reactions in bold. He's pleased at first, then confused, worried, and asks what's wrong as True-Shallan panics and retreats. It's also one of the few times when, as I've put in bold, the truth refuses to budge in her mind. Other times she'll slip into a trance, which still hasn't stopped happening by the end of the book. Every time she goes into one of these trances, her bond with Pattern is weakened further. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Pattern loses sentience in these times, and comes back slowly after Shallan comes back to reality. I bet it's a miserable experience for him.

Edited to add, one of the first times Shallan refers to herself in the third person comes within a page of the above passage.

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Shallan glanced down, realizing that she’d enhanced her bust in this guise. Not for him, of course.

...

Radiant put one foot forward, Blade lifted high in two hands beside her head.

...

“Shallan did spend quite a lot of time drawing you all.”

So Shallan glances down at Radiant's improved bust, but Radiant steps forward into a sword stance and refers to Shallan in the third person.

Edited again to add one more:

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“You need to feel this, Shallan. Live it.”

That would not have been a difficult task for Shallan. Radiant, however, preferred not to feel things she hadn’t considered in depth beforehand.

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She let herself be Shallan in some of the moments, but whenever the pain of holding the sword started to spike—whenever she really thought about what she was doing—she was able to become Radiant and avoid it.

I don't know how much more explicit you can get. Fractured personalities directly because of how painful the truth is to acknowledge. The very opposite of self-awareness.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Rainier
More ideas

[GoddessIMHO]

Accepting the pain is the whole issue. I'd guess she will have a "Dalinar type" moment where Odium offers her the out of taking her pain on himself. Will she be the one that falls to Odium? Only Brandon knows and I bet he says RAFO.

Of course, one of her issues is that she can truly make those other personalities physically real and visible to others. I think that "enables" her splits even more. That is what happened when she totally lost it and cycled through hundreds of faces and couldn't stop. She scared the neighbors.

I believe that she is stable as she can be at the moment with Veil and Radiant still there but under control. She will be "healed" when their traits are just a part of the base Shallan and she has no need to use them in order to fight with a blade or drink and joke with her soldiers (Just to a name a couple).

[Dreamstorm]

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So Wit's advice is mostly about facing that pain and the associated issues.

I completely agree with this - the more I think about this, facing pain and coming to terms with it is the crux of what needs to happen.  It actually, in many ways, seems to be the crux of being a KR at all.  There are good parallels in OB between Dalinar's story (where he accepts the pain associated with his past actions) and Shallan's (where it doesn't appear that she does.)

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Unfortunately, Shallan's state at the end is rather unclear.

This is why I have to believe Shallan hasn't accepted her pain.  No one is pondering whether or not Dalinar has accepted his pain at the end of OB, or whether or not Kaladin had internalized that he has to protect even those he hates at the end of WoR.  I think when these "moments" happen, we see something momentous which will make it unquestionably obvious that next "level" has been met.

OK, tangent, so don't read if you hate all the "love triangle" business.  All of this dissection of Shallan's arc is actually making me appreciate the love triangle.  If no romance element was in the picture, I think it would be so glaringly obvious Shallan hadn't progressed that no one would really even be discussing it (kinda like Kaladin with his 4th ideal.)  If it was just Adolin in the picture, I think many people (myself included) would be happy enough with that storyline that we wouldn't be picking apart every little passage trying to figure out what happened.  (It would just be a romantic arc which could have used a bit more emotion and development.)  But, since there is some portion of the readership who is not happy with how the romance turned out (be is for character-based or for literary reasons), it's leading to a ton of exploring Shallan's chapters and dissecting their nuances which is making me (and I think others?) realize really interesting facets of her story.  Just my opinion, of course, but @PhineasGage maybe it's because I'm finally closing out my stages of grief over Shallan's romantic arc in OB 

[Ailvara]

I was just reading the annotations to WoK and I hoped we could discuss this:

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The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

So, once Shallan figures out her problems, who is she going to be? Can she heal enough to fully become this person of "flaring passion"? Or are the scars from childhood an integral part of her current true self, for better or for worse, and she'll always keep her timid side? Thoughts? 

Sidenote: I really like how it resonates with the way she is fascinated by Kaladin's passion; she seems to feel subconsciously, that it's something she should have, but had lost. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Ailvara

[insert_anagram_here]

49 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

If it was just Adolin in the picture, I think many people (myself included) would be happy enough with that storyline that we wouldn't be picking apart every little passage trying to figure out what happened.

I honestly, do not feel that Shallan should end up with Kaladin at this moment, simply because there is nothing particular actually happening there. It's all 'he's looking at me/ she's looking at me' but that doesn't justify it as a romance to me.

But, the romance with Adolin doesn't convince me either. It doesn't have the depth I would expect for a strong main female character, to decide on getting married. It's just weak. Seriously, what kind of desire do you have towards a person but you tell them 'I'm letting him have you' ? How can a serious relationship, actually be on the brink of break up just because 'I've seen you how you look at him'? What is this? Elementary school?

So, no. I don't think it's the 'romance with Adolin and Kaladin' that makes this bit aggravating, but the 'romance' part. There is no romance depth with either two options.  And even though Shallan was build up as a smart and bold character in the previous books, now she runs and hides behind a marriage. I hate that.

 

edit: And I'd appreciate if this didn't become the second Adolin-Shallan-Kalladin thread. Thanks.

Edited November 28, 2017 by insert_anagram_here