PhineasGage Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 Morning all 10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: From the point at which Shallan bonded Pattern, I suspect that only "old" Truths will work for advancement. Imagine if you could use "new" Truths - that would mean you could deliberately delude yourself then use that as a means for progression. In other words, it would be possible to "cheat". When Shallan killed her mother, I'm pretty sure that this new lie caused her to go backwards in her progression as a Radiant - before as a child she could use sound, but during WoR she couldn't, but she can in OB after having advanced. So I think she was at the 4th Ideal before she killed her mother, then dropped to the 3rd Ideal for 6 years and returned to the 4th Ideal at the end of WoR. So I don't really agree with this for a number of reasons. 1) Not everyone will have as traumatic a past as Shallan but they may still be suitable as a Lightweaver, 2) We know that Shallan has spoken truths that occurred after she bonded. I mean both killing her mother and her father happened after she'd bonded Pattern. I do agree that there is something going on prior to her mother attacking her and it might be important in terms of Shallan's growth. I just don't think it has to be. For example, if she was a child with a fantastic imagination (seems likely) then perhaps simply being able to lie to herself as she played would be enough. We know children can be very engrossed in imaginative play and that some children are better at it that others. If Shallan was exceptional at playing pretend (again seems reasonable given how she does it as Veil in WoR) then perhaps that would be enough to attract a spren. If deep/painful truths are required for Lightweavers to progress, then why choose a child who, statistically, has less chance of having multiple truths available to them unless they can use truths later in life? Even assuming Shallan's background has enough truths in it, given the nature of human memory (ie that we cannot usually accurately remember our formative years), doesn't it make it potentially impossible for the order to progress as a whole. What about if something awful happens later in life and the lightweaver can't accept it? As self-awareness is vital for a lightweaver, doesn't that matter? Could they simply ignore it because they've already got enough truths to get by? I should also point out that the "I'm terrified" is not considered powerful enough in tWoK (iirc) - is there WoB that this is a truth? It seems likely it isn't considered important enough to give progression. The "I'm a murderer" is the truth she needed to accept before she could progress. I also don't think that it is possible to "cheat". If you know you are lying to yourself then you aren't actually deceiving yourself - by definition then you are self aware. It has to be a truth you weren't willing to approach or accept. In theory, seriously believing that you hate cheese because 'reasons', then finally realising you love it because it is actually the food of the gods, could be enough because you have finally realised something about yourself that you had been denying. I know its a silly example, but I think it demonstrates my point. My personal thoughts about Shallan's situation is that she was at level 2 when she killed her mother. She did not have proper access to her shardblade but that Pattern forced the bond (like Syl did when Kaladin fell into the chasm) and that, plus Shallan's mental trauma immediately afterwards killed him (mostly). Her acceptance of her 3rd truth revived Pattern, (I'm a murderer), then she says her 4th (I killed my mother) at the end of WoR. I think it is possible that the 4th level grants access to the shardblade usually but because Pattern manifested before, Shallan believes she should have it already so she can actually access it (perception being important). That she hasn't accepted her truth yet, means that it is still painful to hold the blade in part because she just isn't ready and it may be straining the bond. This might also explain why Pattern seems to start going downhill during OB (my interpretation anyway). This mirrors things we know can happen from other evidence, it fits the rate of progression and possibly gives additional information about why the blade is painful - the emotional pain of being attacked by her mother, the emotional pain of killing her mother, and the mental pain of straining/cracking the bond with Pattern and so killing him, and possibly still straining it. Kaladin doesn't describe pain (iirc) when he loses Syl, per se but it is obvious that he is struggles emotionally as a result. 9 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: I would argue that Shallan hasn't truly accepted the fact she killed her mother, both because we repeatedly see her pushing it down (and fracturing her personality in part to push that truth down and still be able to use her blade) and also because we don't have a big moment of "power up". I agree. I think we see a "power-up" at her "im a murderer" moment because she suddenly soulcasts. I wonder if her 2nd ideal happened as her mother attacked her (e.g. "My mother doesn't love me") and that gave her a power up - perhaps giving her LW but also allowing Pattern to force accessing the blade (as described above). 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Related question, do we KNOW she can use her shardblade from the time period after she kills her mother until she says her "murderer/killed father" truth? Guessing we do, but I don't recall it. No we don't. I think she thinks about it but we don't see it (she starts but stops herself iirc). We only see her summon it for the first time (iirc) when she kills Tyn. 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Just as an aside, I'm operating on the assumption she has accepted her "terrified" and "murderer/father" truths since she has told others and isn't struggling with them in her viewpoints. A) I don't think the "I'm terrified" counts and (B) I agree that she has accepted that she killed her father. It is , of course an easier truth to accept because her whole trip to Kharbranth, the Shattered Plains, Urithiru and her betrothal to Adolin all stem from his death. The murder of her mother was different because a) she is the only person alive who knows it, (b) her childhood afterwards might have been equally as awful if her father really had killed her mother (I doubt it, but there is no way to know) - certainly no-one in the household questions that Lin must have done it in a fit of rage. 8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86-gollanczfest-london/#e5675 This to me suggests that in order to revive Pattern that she needs to accept all that he is and that they have a bond. 8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: If I hadn't have had questions about OB for Brandon, I would probably have asked him some questions about this and some related topics. As I said previously, I think when Shallan killed her mother she regressed as a Radiant from the 4th Ideal to the 3rd Ideal. That was enough for her to keep her Shardblade. I think if she had gone lower she probably wouldn't have been able to keep the Shardblade and it might have killed Pattern for real. So I think she had to be 3rd Ideal all the time until the end of WoR. The first time we find out that speaking Truths locks that memory in and means it can't be ignored is in OB. Those "truths" she spoke in tWoK are different and not locked into her. Those were to different Cryptics and not enough to advance her as a Radiant... but were enough to help restore her bond to Pattern. I think this is a possibility as well although there is too little textual evidence to support going backwards in terms of oaths. But if any order could do it it seems that the lightweavers should be able to. 8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: With regards to power ups with advancement, Lift didn't get anything visible and Szeth got something minor. It seems that the Windrunners are unusually flashy for some reason. I suspect that the Lightweavers don't get anything special. Lift basically resurrected Gawx when she powered up in WoR. Thats pretty impressive imo - she used all her power up energy to do so. I dont have Edgedancer on me atm so can't remember that situation to comment. With Szeth it is a bit unfair. Because he had been bonded to an HonorBlade he is already much more skilled that the other Skybreakers of the same level. He got used to having less stormlight available to him as he fought (he confirms this in tWoK prologue) than a Radiant would so he is already skilled at using it conservatively and making sure that he is efficient when using his lashings. He also never "liked" adhesion as a surge by the sound of it (he thinks gravitation is better) so i would suggest that he never really used adhesion as effectively as he might have done. We therefore get a warped picture of what normal progression for a skybreaker is. I don't think he would see the "power ups" in the same way because he is returning to power rather than gaining it for the first time. 8 hours ago, DeployParachute said: Geez, I seem to be just putting my stages of grief on repeat. Happens Everytime I open up OB again to read. I'll have "accepted" that there really isn't anything more complex to this plot, it really is just as simple as it was. Then I'll hit a nugget of writing and foreshadowing and get reset right back to theorizing. Gotta stop doing this to myself Right with you - I feel like one of the ten fools. Most specifically Dilid, who ran up a hillside to the Tranquilline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet-running for eternity, but never making progress. 8 hours ago, DeployParachute said: I don't have much of a rebuttal except to say that I'm starting to think that while the whole speak truths to advance for lightweavers is an interesting and cool idea, it makes no sense in the context about how people actually grow and work in real life. People are constantly discovering new truths about themselves, and old truths are changing. How can the scope of truths be boiled down to a select few that determines advancements in control of radiant power. I guess "only past truths count" is as good a mechanism as any, but it seems to me to be rather flat, and opposed to how people are always changing. Finding specific oaths for power ups is more accommodating with how we as humans change over the course of our lives. Finding truths...not so much. So as stated above, I don't think only old truths work. Though I do wonder if there is the need to continually maintain truths throughout life to maintain level - or at least maintain the 5th level. If Shallan went and got PTSD on top of everything else (not so unlikely) then she would need to confront truths relating to that as well as her DID or she would be seriously undermined in terms of both her mental and physical health. Stormlight can heal cracks in the spirit web but only when you let it in. 8 hours ago, DeployParachute said: So are truths, or at least nahel bond worthy truths, only truthful memories, or truthful conclusions about one's own nature, or both? My guess is that the 3rd of those is most important. Pattern comments on the nature of truth that it "truth to you" it is, by its nature, subjective. The "that table has 4 legs" vs "What is a table?" interaction in WoR proves this. Only the spiritual realm has absolute truth I believe - the cognitive realm is more subjective about it. 41 minutes ago, SLNC said: Regarding the thing with the spoken Truth being "locked" in, I think that is just the nature of realizing repressed memories. After you've seen certain "triggers" that let the memory reemerge, you can't just forget it anymore. It is like, when you first notice something (like a lopsided painting on the wall), that has always been there, but you haven't seen it until a friend made you aware of it. Now you can't unsee it. So, I think, that is just a phenomenon unique to Shallan, because she had these heavy traumatic events, that triggered the repressed memory. I don't think, that every Lightweaver will have these. "I'm terrified" and "I'm a murderer" weren't repressed memories in the traumatic sense, but just things, that Shallan didn't want to acknowledge, so that is probably why she didn't feel about them like that. I agree - tho I still feel the "I'm terrified" doesn't actually count. Repressed memories always take more time to come out. She tried to repress her memory regarding her father but there was too much happening as a direct consequence of his death that it was much harder. On top of that, as a kid she had someone (ie Lin Davar) specifically tell her not to think about it and to forget it ever happened. Then he lied to protect her so she wouldn't have to deal with the truth. Children generally do what their told when they are scared. 42 minutes ago, SLNC said: Regarding her life before she was eleven, hm, I might be wrong here, but I think Shallan doesn't have any recollection of her life before that. Not just selective, but full-on retrograde psychogenic amnesia Well, at least we haven't seen it. I agree that a full amnesia is certainly possible, though it seems likely she's hiding it in the Shallan persona so it might still come out. I just don't think it has to come out for her to progress. Such a memory loss is related to the likely abuse she suffered but is unrelated to the later fragmentation of identity she goes through. - except in the sense that their share the same cause. What I mean is that in an abuse situation, you may get repressed memories, or DID or both, but you don't have to get either. It depends on the person. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, PhineasGage said: I agree - tho I still feel the "I'm terrified" doesn't actually count. Uhm. In Chapter 45 of TWoK, Shallan tries to summon Pattern, which I think, she is unable to, but that still pulls Pattern in the Cognitive Realm closer to her. Then an uncanny voice asks (Pattern, I'd assume.) Quote What are you? She clutched her hand to her chest, losing her balanc on the soft bed, falling to her knees on the rumpled blanket. She put one hand to the side, steadying herself on the nightstand, fingers brushing the large glass goblet that sat there. "What am I?" she whispered. "I'm terrified" This is true. The bedroom transformed around her. The bed, the nightstand, her sketchpad, the walls, the ceiling - everything seemed to pop, forming into tiny, dark glass spheres. It has to be a Truth and we see the immediate level up of her gaining access to Shadesmar and thus her Transformation Surge. That would also coincide with the WoB, since the act of trying to summon Pattern would have brought Shallan to Patterns attention in the first place. She wouldn't have been able to speak the Truth to him to gain access to Soulcasting otherwise. Edited November 30, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 I'm not sure I got my theory across so I'll try explaining it again. So, I'm taking the following as evidence: In tWoK we know Shallan was surrounded by Cryptics. In WoR she believes the one(s) she spoke to were not Pattern. (Makes logical sense too, considering Pattern's state prior to WoR) In WoR, Pattern believes that Shallan could Lightweave sound in the past, but she fails to achieve it in the present despite a lot of testing In OB, Shallan is able to Lightweave sound. At this point she is one level higher than in WoR Per WoB, Shallan is one level higher than Kaladin. He's at the 3rd Ideal so this puts Shallan at the 4th Ideal. (Side note, Shallan refers to her truths as the odd Ideals of the Lightweavers, so I'm using "Ideal" for consistent terminology across Radiant orders) In OB, we find out that speaking a truth that progresses one as a Lightweaver makes it impossible to forget/ignore that truth. The in-world WoR book says Lightweavers progress by becoming more self-aware. #5 is evidence that her truth at the end of WoR is the only one (that readers know of) that progressed her a level as a Lightweaver. This means that "I am afraid" and "I killed my father" did not progress her as a Lightweaver. This makes logical sense based on #1 because she is not bonded to the Cryptics she spoke to. In other words she is only bonded to Pattern so only truths spoken to him can count towards her progressing a level as a Lightweaver. Based on this and #4, I believe Shallan was at the 3rd Ideal the whole time since she killed her mother. Taking #2 and #3 suggests that Lightweavers can only manipulate sound once they reach the 4th Ideal. This suggests that Shallan was at the 4th Ideal before killing her mother. Based on #6 I believe that Shallan suppressing her memory of killing her mother (and her memories of Pattern) reduced her self-awareness enough to drop her down a level (from 4th Ideal to 3rd Ideal). By admitting to this at the end of WoR, Shallan returns to the 4th Ideal. This is why I think "new lies" (after having bonded a Cryptic) will not help you progress. A big enough new lie would push you down a level of self-awareness. Admitting to that lie would only get you back to where you were before. Hence, I believe only by admitting to old lies can a Lightweaver ultimately progress. If you don't have ones that are significant enough to progress then you're stymied (like Malchin) and can't progress. This might seem nasty but I think it makes sense given that it's not easy for other Orders to reach the higher Ideals as well - I think Lightweavers need a different limiting factor that makes 5th Ideal Lightweavers to be as rare as in other Orders. So I think it's the number of significant enough lies they have prior to bonding. Just to be clear: yes I'm aware that this is all a theory. I'm not presenting this as fact/truth. I would have liked to ask Brandon about it for confirmation but for me it was more important to sort out what was happening to Shallan in OB. I think it's logically consistent with the available evidence but I'm not suggesting that this is the only possible explanation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: #5 is evidence that her truth at the end of WoR is the only one (that readers know of) that progressed her a level as a Lightweaver. This means that "I am afraid" and "I killed my father" did not progress her as a Lightweaver. This makes logical sense based on #1 because she is not bonded to the Cryptics she spoke to. In other words she is only bonded to Pattern so only truths spoken to him can count towards her progressing a level as a Lightweaver. Based on this and #4, I believe Shallan was at the 3rd Ideal the whole time since she killed her mother. But when she says that she's terrified and the voice, which I think is Pattern half-dead in the cRealm, being pulled towards Shallan by her trying to summon him as a Blade (Shallan describes the voice as "uncanny, yet distinct". I think, that suggests, that she already kind of knew that voice, deep in her mind.), acknowledges it as the truth, she immediately gains access to Soulcasting. Which suggests progression. Note, I know, that Shallan thinks, that she didn't speak the truths in WoK to Pattern, which is logical to think, because she was chased by Cryptics back then. Sadly we don't know if that is the truth. If that wasn't Pattern and their bond wasn't completely broken yet, this would suggest, that Shallan had bonded another Cryptic during that time. I know that multiple bonds in general are possible, but multiple bonds of the same type of spren? And wouldn't she still be bonded to that Cryptic, if that were the case? Edited November 30, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: #5 is evidence that her truth at the end of WoR is the only one (that readers know of) that progressed her a level as a Lightweaver. This means that "I am afraid" and "I killed my father" did not progress her as a Lightweaver. This makes logical sense based on #1 because she is not bonded to the Cryptics she spoke to. In other words she is only bonded to Pattern so only truths spoken to him can count towards her progressing a level as a Lightweaver. Based on this and #4, I believe Shallan was at the 3rd Ideal the whole time since she killed her mother. I don't quite follow. To me, the "I'm terrified" re-bonds her to Pattern then she progresses with "I killed my father". We see Shallan improve as a lightweaver vastly from this point in WoR. I agree that her speaking the truth of being "terrified" didn't progress her because it wasn't said to Pattern but was actually more about him. We know she hits level 4 at end of WoR (as per WoB as you said. ) If she'd been level 3 that whole time, why do we get so much progression through WoR? We see so much more complexity -as she goes from making simple colour on the deck of the Wind's Pleasure at the beginning to be able to create a walking image of Veil she can tie to Pattern when she goes to find Taln for example. It makes more sense surely that she progresses 1 level at the end of tWoK simply because she seems to gain in skill and also seems able to draw in more stormlight etc as well. She was denying to herself that she killed her father. She consistently tells herself not to think about it. She even stifles the ideas of him being dead. It wasn't as deep a lie, but then she also had less time to repress it and as she was much older, her mind was less able to anyway. 50 minutes ago, SLNC said: That would also coincide with the WoB, since the act of trying to summon Pattern would have brought Shallan to Patterns attention in the first place. She wouldn't have been able to speak the Truth to him to gain access to Soulcasting otherwise. So I think this was her reviving Pattern, rather than speaking a truth. She, in a sense, had gone backwards in self-awareness and this was her regaining her levels. I don't consider this a "truth" in the same way as a result because it was more a case of reviving the bond - like Kaladin did with Syl. She gets a pseudo-powerup because she suddenly gets access to two levels of stormlight that she'd been blocking. Note that Syl was already reviving before he said his words (we hear her voice) then he swears the ideal and she comes back fully plus he levels up. He also gets a supercharged power up because he gets 2 levels back plus the third new one. I think it is reasonable that it is similar to what Pattern and Shallan did for him to revive. She doesn't level per se until she says she is a murderer. I also want to point out that accepting the idea of murderer is slightly different from saying "I killed my father". The definition of murder is that it is unlawful killing that occurred with the express intent of killing the victim (nb manslaughter is usually unlawful killing but death was not intended). Shallan (correctly imo) identifies herself as a murderer because she had a plan to poison her father to kill him and when that failed she strangled him to death. I am not saying she didn't have cause , but she did mean to kill him. That is actually quite powerful as an idea. I can't see how this can't be a truth given that she never thinks about it prior to her statement at the end of tWoK. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: So I think this was her reviving Pattern, rather than speaking a truth. She, in a sense, had gone backwards in self-awareness and this was her regaining her levels. I don't consider this a "truth" in the same way as a result because it was more a case of reviving the bond - like Kaladin did with Syl. She gets a pseudo-powerup because she suddenly gets access to two levels of stormlight that she'd been blocking. Note that Syl was already reviving before he said his words (we hear her voice) then he swears the ideal and she comes back fully plus he levels up. He also gets a supercharged power up because he gets 2 levels back plus the third new one. I think it is reasonable that it is similar to what Pattern and Shallan did for him to revive. She doesn't level per se until she says she is a murderer. That is plausible, considering we never see Shallan speak the First Ideal, which I think was the thread the bond was hanging on. "I'm terrified" revived Pattern and immediately also gave her access to Soulcasting by acting as the Second Ideal, kind of like how Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal while reviving Syl. Whether or not that includes the Shardblade is debatable, that might have been what she got by saying the "I am a murderer" Truth, which acted as her Third Ideal. I can't seem to remember when she first really summoned Pattern... Was it when Tyn tried to kill her? That would be after she spoke her Third Ideal ("I am a murderer"). Edited November 30, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) btw, here's a list of interesting WoBs. They help set the scene a bit: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34-arcanum-unbounded-seattle-signing/#e5899 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5609 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221-words-of-radiance-omaha-signing/#e7874 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167-steelheart-chicago-signing/#e3028 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3493 One general thing I'd like to point out: in OB, Shallan's memory seems distinctly better. She's able to remember various things that she had forgotten. She's able to Lightweave people she that not drawn in years etc - in WoR, her ability to Lightweave based on a drawing lasted about half a day to a day. However, between the start of tWoK and the end of WoR her memory doesn't noticeably improve. I suspect that it would have if she had progressed a level as a Radiant during this time. 2 hours ago, SLNC said: But when she says that she's terrified and the voice, which I think is Pattern half-dead in the cRealm, being pulled towards Shallan by her trying to summon him as a Blade (Shallan describes the voice as "uncanny, yet distinct". I think, that suggests, that she already kind of knew that voice, deep in her mind.), acknowledges it as the truth, she immediately gains access to Soulcasting. Which suggests progression. Note, I know, that Shallan thinks, that she didn't speak the truths in WoK to Pattern, which is logical to think, because she was chased by Cryptics back then. Sadly we don't know if that is the truth. If that wasn't Pattern and their bond wasn't completely broken yet, this would suggest, that Shallan had bonded another Cryptic during that time. I know that multiple bonds in general are possible, but multiple bonds of the same type of spren? And wouldn't she still be bonded to that Cryptic, if that were the case? The WoR quote (from chapter 6) about what Shallan experienced in tWoK is: Quote Liespren, Jasnah called them, Shallan wrote. A moniker they don't like apparently. When I Soulcast for the first time, a voice demanded a truth from me. I still don't know what that means, and Jasnah has not been forthcoming. She doesn't seem to know what to make of my experience either. I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern, but I cannot say, as he seems to have forgotten much about himself. I don't think Shallan would have been able to speak to Pattern in tWoK as he was too dead at the time - I don't think he could speak to Shallan at all until the start of WoR. She didn't even know he existed. So I think it's different to Syl speaking to Kaladin while being sort-of dead near the end of WoR. I think it was only after Shallan pulled Pattern back to the Physical Realm (by drawing him at the start of WoR) that Pattern could speak to her again. I don't see a good reason to believe that Shallan's opinion in the quote above is wrong. As a general point about tWoK, Shallan was trying to Soulcast (once she stole Jasnah's Soulcaster). So I think the Cryptics took advantage of this opportunity to try to get Shallan to use Soulcasting by herself. At no point did she try to Lightweave (that I can think of). So what's actually going on here? To be honest, I have a few ideas but I'm not sure which aspects were the most important. I don't think we've seen anything similar so we don't have much to go on. I'm pretty sure that her actual ability to Soulcast depends on her bond with Pattern - that she wouldn't have been able to Soulcast if she hadn't tried to summon Patternblade is very strong evidence. So I think these other Cryptics formed either a temporary bond with Shallan that piggybacked her existing bond with Pattern or they somehow stimulated her to use her existing bond with Pattern. Something along those lines. I think it's highly likely that their motivation was to help Shallan rekindle her bond with Pattern by prompting her to become more self-aware. I very much doubt that any old truth spoken to a Cryptic grants you a level up. On a side note, my guess is that the Lightweavers don't get access to Soulcasting until the 3rd Ideal. This would be consistent with some other Orders. In addition, Jasnah initially suspected Shallan was also an Elsecaller - probably because as far as Jasnah knew Shallan started with Soulcasting (rather than Lightweaving). We'll probably need a WoB or to see new Lightweavers to know for sure. 2 hours ago, PhineasGage said: I don't quite follow. To me, the "I'm terrified" re-bonds her to Pattern then she progresses with "I killed my father". We see Shallan improve as a lightweaver vastly from this point in WoR. I agree that her speaking the truth of being "terrified" didn't progress her because it wasn't said to Pattern but was actually more about him. We know she hits level 4 at end of WoR (as per WoB as you said. ) If she'd been level 3 that whole time, why do we get so much progression through WoR? We see so much more complexity -as she goes from making simple colour on the deck of the Wind's Pleasure at the beginning to be able to create a walking image of Veil she can tie to Pattern when she goes to find Taln for example. It makes more sense surely that she progresses 1 level at the end of tWoK simply because she seems to gain in skill and also seems able to draw in more stormlight etc as well. I don't follow this argument. Shallan didn't Lightweave once until after she had summoned Pattern at the start of WoR. The "I'm terrified" and "I killed my father" lines came before then, in tWoK. So how can you say that they're directly part of her progress as a Lightweaver in WoR since they happened in tWoK? Her improving ability in Lightweaving is simply experience as she figures out the mechanics. Same as Kaladin's ability to "fly". She had to start from zero experience but had the advantage that she was already at the 3rd Ideal. Early on she could make "augmentations" work quite well (making herself look prettier etc) but external Lightweavings were terrible. She finally made the direct connection between her drawings and Lightweaving after she got to the warcamps, which helped her ability a lot. I suspect "augmentations" are a 2nd Ideal Lightweaving skill and the more complex disguises and external Lightweaving is a 3rd Ideal Lightweaving skill. Quote She was denying to herself that she killed her father. She consistently tells herself not to think about it. She even stifles the ideas of him being dead. It wasn't as deep a lie, but then she also had less time to repress it and as she was much older, her mind was less able to anyway. So I think this was her reviving Pattern, rather than speaking a truth. She, in a sense, had gone backwards in self-awareness and this was her regaining her levels. I don't consider this a "truth" in the same way as a result because it was more a case of reviving the bond - like Kaladin did with Syl. She gets a pseudo-powerup because she suddenly gets access to two levels of stormlight that she'd been blocking. Note that Syl was already reviving before he said his words (we hear her voice) then he swears the ideal and she comes back fully plus he levels up. He also gets a supercharged power up because he gets 2 levels back plus the third new one. I think it is reasonable that it is similar to what Pattern and Shallan did for him to revive. She doesn't level per se until she says she is a murderer. I also want to point out that accepting the idea of murderer is slightly different from saying "I killed my father". The definition of murder is that it is unlawful killing that occurred with the express intent of killing the victim (nb manslaughter is usually unlawful killing but death was not intended). Shallan (correctly imo) identifies herself as a murderer because she had a plan to poison her father to kill him and when that failed she strangled him to death. I am not saying she didn't have cause , but she did mean to kill him. That is actually quite powerful as an idea. I can't see how this can't be a truth given that she never thinks about it prior to her statement at the end of tWoK. To repeat my argument, I don't think Shallan admitting to killing her father counted as a level up for the simple reason that it was not a truth that she could no longer ignore, unlike her admitting to killing her mother. (ie the former didn't count as an Ideal but the later one did) However... I do think that her admitting to her killing her father was important. I doubt she'd have been able to summon Pattern without that. We see in WoR that when Kaladin starts to go against his 2nd Ideal that Syl gets weaker and his Surges get weaker. So there is variation in the bond outside of levelling up (or down). During the years between when Shallan killed her mother and when she killed her father, her memory of killing her mother was slowly improving and she was becoming more self-aware. However, killing her father knocked her back a lot (but not an entire level). So properly admitting to killing her father helped her general self-awareness improve but wasn't an actual level-up. That's my best explanation for now at least. 2 hours ago, SLNC said: I can't seem to remember when she first really summoned Pattern... Was it when Tyn tried to kill her? That would be after she spoke her Third Ideal ("I am a murderer"). The first time Shallan actually summoned Patternblade was with Tyn, yes. I believe she would have been able to summon him at any time (including in tWoK) though - I seem to remember there being a WoB about this but I can't find it. Edited November 30, 2017 by kari-no-sugata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: I don't think Shallan would have been able to speak to Pattern in tWoK as he was too dead at the time - I don't think he could speak to Shallan at all until the start of WoR. She didn't even know he existed. So I think it's different to Syl speaking to Kaladin while being sort-of dead near the end of WoR. I think it was only after Shallan pulled Pattern back to the Physical Realm (by drawing him at the start of WoR) that Pattern could speak to her again. I don't see a good reason to believe that Shallan's opinion in the quote above is wrong. We have several occasions, that state, that the drawing of Pattern pulled him back completely into the pRealm, which suggests, that he always was partly there, just mostly in the cRealm. I don't know why it would be important, that she needs to know she was talking to Pattern. Also Shallan herself is unsure in her statement. 48 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: At no point did she try to Lightweave (that I can think of). Why should she? She forgot every memory of being a Surgebinder. Trying to Soulcast makes sense after she had Jasnah's broken soulcaster. 48 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: I very much doubt that any old truth spoken to a Cryptic grants you a level up. No one says that. "I'm terrified" is not just "any old truth", because all the time Shallan was trying to convince herself, that she wasn't. That she was strong and resilient. Admitting to be terrified is attaining self-awareness in that case. Quote On a side note, my guess is that the Lightweavers don't get access to Soulcasting until the 3rd Ideal. This would be consistent with some other Orders. In addition, Jasnah initially suspected Shallan was also an Elsecaller - probably because as far as Jasnah knew Shallan started with Soulcasting (rather than Lightweaving). We'll probably need a WoB or to see new Lightweavers to know for sure. Could be, could not be. Windrunners gain Adhesion at the First Ideal, Gravitation at the Second Ideal and Blade at the Third Ideal. Edgedancers get Abrasion at the First Ideal, Progression at the Second Ideal, Blade at the Third Ideal. Only Skybreakers gain Gravitation at the Second Ideal and Division at the Third Ideal. Otherwise? We have no idea. By current knowledge, Lightweavers gaining Soulcasting at the Second Ideal would be more consistent. Why Jasnah thought Shallan was an Elsecaller? Probably because Elsecallers get Transformation before Transportation in their progression. Edited November 30, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Alright, I'm spoilering this because it's about the Triangle(tm), and you all are having a very nuanced conversation about Shallan's progress which is hard for me to catch up on this early in the morning So for the handful who may be interested.... Spoiler 8 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: I know exactly what you mean, I will say that I have barely been functioning in real life this last week and my posts keep contradicting one another because I've been going through a "denial" to/from "false hope" cycle over and over in my mind. I know that doesn't sound like evidence that I am sane and that you should trust my judgement, but last night I came to the conclusion that even if I'm crazy, that's okay. I prefer to be on this side of the argument. So, yes, I've finally requested passage on the S.S. but in the cargo area, on the third level, in a box, where people are destined to die puking their guts out before even the ship manages to sink in the notorious Sandermuda triangle. I've been told that they don't have boxes left for people destined to die with the ship - they ran out when they realized it was going to be all of us. So maybe instead of being in a box, could I be the box? Everything has a spren after all. I'm right with you in making this big decision; @PhineasGage I'm ready to come on board the SS Shalladin. I know I've been a skeptic, so I'm happy to ride in a dingy alongside, but here is my (insanely long) reasoning... I can't get past the sitting/standing in the "Adolin grabs hand" scene and here is why: Shallan had three big climaxes in OB - fighting Re-Sephir at the end of Part 1, her conversation with Wit at the end of Part 3, and fighting in TC/choosing Adolin in the end of Part 5. This is in line with how Sanderson told us he was setting up the book. In Shallan's climax in Part 3, the chapter is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", which calls back Shallan's "Girl Who Looked Up" story that Wit narrates in the chapter with different emphasis. In the seminal part of Wit's advice he says: "I see only one woman here. And she is the one who is standing up." Of course other stuff is there, but together with the chapter title, this is the core of Wit's advice. The real Shallan is the one who is standing up. During her big moment with Adolin, Shallan is sitting down. This is actually not completely explicit - I had to reread this portion closely to even see that she was sitting down. (In the very beginning all three personas "settled down on the wall walk, back to the stone." And then Adolin "fell to his knees" beside her. Besides that, we're not slammed over the head with the fact Shallan is sitting down.) However, when Brandon was questioned by Kari (not tagging in case she doesn't want to read it) about how Adolin saw the "real" Shallan, Brandon seems to have explicitly mentioned Shallan was sitting down, which to me feels like he wanted to point this out. (It didn't seem relevant to the question - Adolin could stare deep into Shallan's eyes whether she was sitting down or standing up.) Immediately after Adolin chooses the "real" Shallan, and "Shallan" has a moment with him, Kaladin lands on the wall. Veil took over and "pulled herself to her feet." One thing of note (for you @PhineasGage) is that Veil is the one standing up. So Veil is the girl who is standing up, which gives credence to the idea that these personas are more equal and integral parts of Shallan than the "choosing the real Shallan" conclusion seems to suggest. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) this goes a long way to resolving the bungled mental illness portrayal. Even if Brandon isn't great at crafting love arcs, and even if he changed his mind about where he was taking things and was trying to turn the ship around so to speak (lol), it would be a Creative Writing 101-level mistake to incorrectly incorporate the HUGE piece of symbolism which was the core of one of your character's main arcs. He is a better writer than this. He just is. Also, we know he carefully considered and crafted this arc (given that he spent half of his reddit post talking about carefully revising it), so this wouldn't be something that was just overlooked. I strongly believe this was very intentional. Therefore, at the very end of OB, when Shallan is supposedly having her Adolin climax, we have overt symbolism that this isn't the right move/end game. At that crucial point, she is not the girl who is standing up. So, while I could be convinced all the Kaladin stuff in WoR/earlier in OB was only leading to what we get at the end of OB (Kaladin realizing Tien made him feel better like Shallan; Shallan having to choose between two men), there is no way Shalladin is dropped when we are given this symbolism that Shallan is only superficially coming to her big conclusion. Therefore, SS Shalladin it is! The rest of this is pure speculation, but stuff I thought about when coming to this decision: Why is a Kaladin romantic arc important to the overall story? I really got into this Shalladin thing when I was reading @Rainier's post on the Kaladin love life thread. I agree with her "end of book 5" conclusion; our viewpoint characters will go to Damnation to buy our good guys more time. Kaladin and Shallan will need each other then. (There are hints Ash and Taln had this kind of symbiosis.) Specifically, Shallan's lightness can help keep Kaladin out of severe depression. I'm not 100% sure what Kaladin will give Shallan in this situation, but perhaps something about keeping her personalities from fracturing because he only sees one person (as referenced multiple times that he doesn't seem to notice her slipping into different personas) which seems to be a key thing in real OSDD. What about that Adolin was so perceptive and saw these things no one else did? I think this is much less profound than it seems. Veil is darkeyed. Shallan is lighteyed. We may be able to make the leap that Radiant is glowing eyed (at least we see this explicitly in other Radiants.) Lightweaving produces this eye change in Shallan (confirmed by Brandon per Kari that Adolin is seeing Lightweaving.) It's really not rocket science to see eye color changing. Yeah, you have to actually be looking at someone's eyes, but it's not a profound "soulmate" level thing. Why didn't others see this? Well, my proposition is that Shallan doesn't feel the need to change as drastically around others, since a lot of her changing is to fit the image Adolin wants. (Be the perfect Shallan wife.) He's not only seen her eye color change more, but she also has a more intense change around him. Where will Shallan's arc go? (Obvious wish fulfillment going on here.) Book 4: We will open with Shallan in control but not exactly happy. Her mid-book arc involves accepting that she killed her mother (maybe tied to something with her past she learns about from her brothers), being able to access her shardplate and realizing that she needs to tackle her mental challenges alone. Adolin goes out of the picture. Shallan gets more involved in the fighting part. I think there are really interesting synergies with windrunners lashing around soulcasters, so I think this is something Kaladin and Shallan could do together which would be awe-inspiring and bonding but not actually romantic. End of book 4 amazing battle (retaking Kholinar??; lots of internal demons about failure for both of them to face there) where they fight really well together. Kaladin and Shallan feelings simmer, but Shallan wants to be on her own and Kaladin isn't going to step in on Adolin's girl, so nothing happens. No kiss, nothing, leave readers actually wanting something to happen but not giving it to them. Book 5: They get together and end of book 5 go to Damnation together. Not so much fanfic here Yeah, I know, A LOT of wish fulfillment/fanfiction going on in book 4 in Shallan's arc being about finding her independence, but one can dream! Why did Brandon make a triangle at all? In the video MariaP linked (also not tagged because I think she wants to stay out of these discussions), Brandon talks about how it takes A LOT of time to build a realistic romance. And it's hard to give your characters the time and space to do so. (One of my big issues with the Vin/Elend romance for instance is that they fall in "love" so fast.) He specifically talks about how in a realistic romance there is a lot of back and forth in how the two characters feel about one another and how they aren't sure about how the other feels about them; this is reflected in the OB Shalladin arc. Kaladin and Shallan obviously both have a lot of growth which needs to happen for them to even be healthy partners to one another. But if you make them "buddies" and then flip the switch when Shallan is single and has undergone her growth, that seems a little anticlimactic and like she's just choosing the next character who is her age (Brandon also talks about avoiding this in that lecture.) Instead, they have initial chemistry (we know from the video Brandon is a fan of the braided rose of whatever that is where there is animosity at first), a big event (chasms) which allows them to move past that and start to get along, and simmering attraction on both sides which can't go anywhere (because of Adolin), and that way once a real romance is started, there is a solid romantic foundation (in addition to a solid relationship, be it romantic or friendship, foundation of working well together, such as Kholinar and Shadesmar.) Short answer - to give both characters time to grow while still maintaining romantic tension. How will the Adolin fans come to terms with this? I actually see the "Adolin fan club" as the biggest impediment to this whole thing, lol. Now, given my hypothesis (the sitting/standing moment is a huge deal), Brandon clearly isn't giving into them. But, I think Adolin needs to have an arc post-marriage which he couldn't have had if he stayed married to Shallan. I've always thought it would be cool if he went to Iri to meet his mother's people and return her shardplate to them. Now, he could have done this with Shallan, so we'll need more than that. I'm personally not a huge fan of "Shallan will break him and therefore he will revive his blade" because it makes his fans hate Shallan. So, I'm not sure where we go with this, but I think it can be resolved. Also, my timeline allows fans the second half of book 4 (where Adolin will do something cool without Shallan) and the break between books 4 and 5 to get over the idea of Shadolin. Seeing Shallan do awesome fighting/magic things on her own (which her acceptance of herself allows her to do) and seeing her and Kaladin have awesome fighting/magic synergy that isn't romantic-oriented will also go a long way. People love awesome fighting/magic Further spoilered, because this is "intimate moment" stuff some people may not want to read Spoiler I would love for some couple to have premarital sex, because I'm dying for Brandon to go there. (The closest we've got was Breeze and Allriane, but Brandon explained that away in the annotations that there wasn't really the concept of marriage in TLR-era Scadrial.) I get it's his background, but it's not realistic people always wait until marriage to have sex (esp. as the apocalypse is coming! We want to procreate even more then!) Unless we want Shallan to go through another marriage, I think this is the most likely couple we have now to fulfill this longstanding wish of mine. So, Shallan is not a virgin, but Kaladin will be (unless we think he and Tarah made it that far, which I doubt given Alethi prudishness, their ages and that fact she lived with her father.) I love how this throws the "experienced man/virgin girl" trope on its head, whether intended or not. (There is no way this will even be mentioned. Or likely even considered by Brandon. But I like it anyway.) Some Adolin bashing coming up... but he would be so bad in bed... Can you imagine "are you OK, Shallan?", "did I hurt you, Shallan?"?? God, the concern would be soooo off-putting Ok, I'm not sure if anyone made it this far! Half of my reason for writing this is because I want to have it somewhere when the next book comes out so I can see how wrong I am! And of course I'm expecting a WoB at some point which unequivocally says Kaladin is out of the picture to blow it all up, and then I can go back to thinking it's just a poorly written plotline Edited November 30, 2017 by Dreamstorm 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomness Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Hi everyone. I've been feeling a little shy lately, but as Shallan is my greatest frustration, here I am. 8 hours ago, PhineasGage said: Right with you - I feel like one of the ten fools. Most specifically Dilid, who ran up a hillside to the Tranquilline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet-running for eternity, but never making progress. You really made me lough here, I though I had to tell you. Regarding the "Forced Bond", there are several evidences that this can happen. Lift and Venli are examples of this. I think we shouldn't think of "levels" as the moment the oath/truth is said, but also the moment it is assimilated or meant. Let me clarify: Kal/Syl bond is not revived when he says the words, but when he decides to save Elokhar. Lift uses her shard-pole seconds before saying the words. @kari-no-sugata I think you may be onto something with Shallan talking to the cryptics. - Pattern lobbied to be bonded with Shallan - Cryptics want to be bonded - In OB Pattern mentions that Shallan could kill him and the Cryptics would send someone else. So it is entirely possible the cryptics were trying to bond with her, regardless of Pattern being half dead somewhere. That would explain why a simple lie (I'm terrified) was enough to access the transformation surge for a moment. After she says the second truth, I'm a murderer, her self-awareness increases and she is able to revive Pattern, and driving away the other cryptics. We don't know the mechanics of leveling down bonds. Maybe she was 3rh level and stayed that way when she killed Pattern, so she brought him back on the same level; or maybe she was 4th lvl and downgraded to 3rd... Edited November 30, 2017 by Awesomness copy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: I do not understand this obsession with finding 2nd, 3rd, 4th Ideal in Lightweavers. Lightweavers do not have Ideals, only one Ideal, the 1st. They might gain and lose abilities based on which truths they accept and how powerful those truths are, relevant to their self-awareness. It doesn't have to be in a specific order 1-2-3. It's like a huge checklist of things with different weight in value, where you can regress in some of those truths but not in others. For example, the fact that she used Pattern in killing her parents, made her regress into not being able to use Pattern. That specific truth and that specific power are interconnected. Actually that's a good point. Given how strict the WR are regarding the oaths (well they at least appear to be) the opposite on the spectrum (from the Double-eye radiant picture thing) is the LW and they would probably be the loosest in many ways. 7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: The thing is, just because Wit sees Shallan being on the road to recovery, that doesn't mean he is fully aware of what the real truth of her is. Only she can know the real truths about herself (and/or Pattern). 'On the road to recovery' could potentially mean that she has started searching for the truth (the first step) and not necessarily making progress on her self awareness. He cannot know if marriage is the right thing for her, but she has at least started moving. True. True. I think he probably does know more than we might expect, but at the same time maybe he sees this as a necessary step. 7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: So, yes, I've finally requested passage on the S.S. but in the cargo area, on the third level, in a box, where people are destined to die puking their guts out before even the ship manages to sink in the notorious Sandermuda triangle. I've been told that they don't have boxes left for people destined to die with the ship - they ran out when they realized it was going to be all of us. So maybe instead of being in a box, could I be the box? Everything has a spren after all. If you are willing to be a box then I am all for it! I mean, not that I want us all to die as we sink slowly into the ever churning waters of the Sandermuda triangle, but at least we are in good company right? 2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: One general thing I'd like to point out: in OB, Shallan's memory seems distinctly better. She's able to remember various things that she had forgotten. She's able to Lightweave people she that not drawn in years etc - in WoR, her ability to Lightweave based on a drawing lasted about half a day to a day. However, between the start of tWoK and the end of WoR her memory doesn't noticeably improve. I suspect that it would have if she had progressed a level as a Radiant during this time. That isn't entirely true - she draws Jasnah as she remembers her from their last night on the ship together. That's months later and it is still clear. It wasn't even drawing a proper memory. We also see her lightweave by instinct for the first time (as she lightweaves herself as a weeping girl). That suggests more than just practice to me. 2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: I don't think Shallan would have been able to speak to Pattern in tWoK as he was too dead at the time - I don't think he could speak to Shallan at all until the start of WoR. She didn't even know he existed. So I think it's different to Syl speaking to Kaladin while being sort-of dead near the end of WoR. I think it was only after Shallan pulled Pattern back to the Physical Realm (by drawing him at the start of WoR) that Pattern could speak to her again. I don't see a good reason to believe that Shallan's opinion in the quote above is wrong I don't know that it isn't possible. I think Syl was probably more dead than Pattern and just because Shallan doesn't consciously remember something doesn't mean she doesn't subconsciously (she remembered her mother's death, she'd just suppressed it). Its not like the memories just disappear. Shallan is a very unreliable narrator. 2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: I don't follow this argument. Shallan didn't Lightweave once until after she had summoned Pattern at the start of WoR. The "I'm terrified" and "I killed my father" lines came before then, in tWoK. So how can you say that they're directly part of her progress as a Lightweaver in WoR since they happened in tWoK? She makes colour on the deck of the wind's pleasure. She has drawn pattern then but not summoned him otherwise. Its a major step forward. 2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: Her improving ability in Lightweaving is simply experience as she figures out the mechanics. Same as Kaladin's ability to "fly". She had to start from zero experience but had the advantage that she was already at the 3rd Ideal. Early on she could make "augmentations" work quite well (making herself look prettier etc) but external Lightweavings were terrible. She finally made the direct connection between her drawings and Lightweaving after she got to the warcamps, which helped her ability a lot. I suspect "augmentations" are a 2nd Ideal Lightweaving skill and the more complex disguises and external Lightweaving is a 3rd Ideal Lightweaving skill. Yes, but she needed to get back to it. Shallan vaguely remembers lights and patterns she played with as a child. That seems much more basic than anything she does in WoR - making herself prettier/dress better etc to convince the deserters to support her is a major step up from that - getting to Veil from there, I agree is more about practice. Sounds are not inherently more complex than images. Illumination is a surge of light and sound. Pattern specifically tells her this. She has limited herself to what she can draw, but there were other artistic types before the Recreance (poets/authors and iirc musicians). They would have manipulated the skill differently than Shallan would - eg I would imagine a musician or an author to manage sound better than Shallan does because those are easy to imagine when you write them down in either word or notation format. 2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: To repeat my argument, I don't think Shallan admitting to killing her father counted as a level up for the simple reason that it was not a truth that she could no longer ignore, unlike her admitting to killing her mother. (ie the former didn't count as an Ideal but the later one did) As I said, it isnt the "killing" that matters it is accepting responsibility of "murder". Its not the same thing at all. Her murder of Tyn was self defence. Her murder of her father wasn't - it was premeditated (albeit for only a short time before she committed it). You could argue that Tyn's death was manslaughter. You can't do that with Lin. 2 hours ago, SLNC said: We have several occasions, that state, that the drawing of Pattern pulled him back completely into the pRealm, which suggests, that he always was partly there, just mostly in the cRealm. I don't know why it would be important, that she needs to know she was talking to Pattern. Also Shallan herself is unsure in her statement True. Also, if she was partly in the cRealm then it is possible she could hear him because he was only mostly dead. 2 hours ago, SLNC said: Why should she? She forgot every memory of being a Surgebinder. Trying to Soulcast makes sense after she had Jasnah's broken soulcaster. This is a good point. The Oaths/Ideals are a construct imposed after nahel bond was "invented" by the spren. Perhaps each surgebinder can technically access all their powers from the beginning if the situation is right. I still think this supports her straining the bond to make Pattern a blade to defend herself when her mother attacked her. 15 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: I'm right with you in making this big decision; @PhineasGage I'm ready to come on board the SS Shalladin. I know I've been a skeptic, so I'm happy to ride in a dingy alongside, but here is my (insanely long) reasoning... @DreamstormWoo, We caught another one! Also, don't be silly, we wouldn't make you be pulled along in a dinghy - for one thing it has a hole in it. No-one minds a skeptic here as long as you are willing to go down with the ship. In order to also hide Shipping stuff I shall also spoiler it. Spoiler 42 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: Shallan had three big climaxes in OB - fighting Re-Sephir at the end of Part 1, her conversation with Wit at the end of Part 3, and fighting in TC/choosing Adolin in the end of Part 5. This is in line with how Sanderson told us he was setting up the book. In Shallan's climax in Part 3, the chapter is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", which calls back Shallan's "Girl Who Looked Up" story that Wit narrates in the chapter with different emphasis. In the seminal part of Wit's advice he says: "I see only one woman here. And she is the one who is standing up." Of course other stuff is there, but together with the chapter title, this is the core of Wit's advice. The real Shallan is the one who is standing up. See now this is why I ended up in Shalladin anyway. The foreshadowing. I mean, assuming we're right, then it is foreshadowing, but if not, well then it is just food for fanfics. 45 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: One thing of note (for you @PhineasGage) is that it is Veil is the one standing up. So Veil is the girl who is standing up, which gives credence to the idea that these personas are more equal and integral parts of Shallan than the "choosing the real Shallan" conclusion seems to suggest. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) this goes a long way to resolving the bungled mental illness portrayal. God yes it really does. I can forgive it being a bit "romantic" for a portrayal of OSDD because it is still a work of fiction but this suggests to me that he may still be heading the way of portraying it reasonably well. What do you think @FuzzyWordsmith? 47 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: But, I think Adolin needs to have an arc post-marriage which he couldn't have had if he stayed married to Shallan. I agree here. I find him relatively dull so far - not because he is sunny - I don't need him to go dark or anything (though I worry he might) but because so much of his arc has been about his relationship with Shallan. I don't need more Adolin screentime or anything but Jasnah and Renarin (who both get less screentime) get more individual growth rather than it relating to someone else. I think this might have been why I wanted the murder to be handled more? I agree with your "intimate stuff" as well Addionally: Spoiler I always read the bit where Kaladin was climbing up the chasm wall towards Shallan just as the highstorm hit as being a sexual metaphor. There is moaning, she cries out "Come on", there are waters gushing at the bottom of the chasm - its actually quite explicit if it is meant to be a sexual analogy. 13 minutes ago, Awesomness said: I think we shouldn't think of "levels" as the moment the oath/truth is said, but also me moment it is assimilates or meant. Let me clarify: Kal/Syl bond is not revived when he says the words, but when he decides to save Elokhar. Lift uses her shard-pole seconds before saying the words Good point, it is as much about "living" those ideals as saying them, though I do think the words matter to an extent - perhaps solidifying the bond? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomness Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: Good point, it is as much about "living" those ideals as saying them, though I do think the words matter to an extent - perhaps solidifying the bond? Both of them matter. I think this is most clear in the proto-radiant stage. We see Kal using surges many times before Teft tipped him on the first words. But he was certainly choosing life before death, etc. I really really doubt little Shallan and little Lift new the first words either. I think that's the reason why Shallan in OB is still struggling with Transformation even though she is 4th level. Pattern sort of forced her to say the truth, she cannot go backwards now, but she isn't accepting it either. We also see Pattern becoming more erratic, as a result. She needs to make peace with this truth to fully be on level 4th. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: This is why I think "new lies" (after having bonded a Cryptic) will not help you progress. A big enough new lie would push you down a level of self-awareness. The key is self-awareness, and I believe the in-world Words of Radiance says that Lightweavers need to reach a threshold of self awareness. This makes me agree with you that 'new lies' wouldn't work, as believing those new lies would make you less self-aware. At the same time, I want to say that it doesn't matter when the lies/secret truths originate as long as the individual can first achieve and then maintain a sufficient level of self-awareness. 6 hours ago, PhineasGage said: I also want to point out that accepting the idea of murderer is slightly different from saying "I killed my father". The definition of murder is that it is unlawful killing that occurred with the express intent of killing the victim (nb manslaughter is usually unlawful killing but death was not intended). Shallan (correctly imo) identifies herself as a murderer because she had a plan to poison her father to kill him and when that failed she strangled him to death. I am not saying she didn't have cause , but she did mean to kill him. That is actually quite powerful as an idea. I can't see how this can't be a truth given that she never thinks about it prior to her statement at the end of tWoK. It's an example of Shallan being self-aware by recognizing herself as a murderer who was intent on killing her father. This means it wasn't an accident, it wasn't justified, it was murder, and she knows it. "I killed my father," wouldn't cut it because it isn't self-aware enough to identify her killing as murder. 3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: So I think these other Cryptics formed either a temporary bond with Shallan that piggybacked her existing bond with Pattern or they somehow stimulated her to use her existing bond with Pattern. Something along those lines. This is the explanation that I like. Pattern was trailing around Shallan in the cognitive realm, and his fellow Cryptics prompted her speak a truth which would revive him. They essentially led her to the solution in order to revive their friend (probably more like esteemed colleague) and continue the experiments. 3 hours ago, SLNC said: No one says that. "I'm terrified" is not just "any old truth", because all the time Shallan was trying to convince herself, that she wasn't. That she was strong and resilient. Admitting to be terrified is attaining self-awareness in that case. I'm just going to agree and reemphasize that truth is missing the point, and that self-awareness is actually the point. Sure, self-awareness is caught up in truth and lies, but it's fundamentally truths and lies about oneself that oneself is responsible for perpetuating or ending. This is again involved in the new truths/old truths which also misses the point, in that for Lightweavers all that matters is self-awareness in the present. 1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said: there is no way Shalladin is dropped when we are given this symbolism that Shallan is only superficially coming to her big conclusion. Therefore, SS Shalladin it is! ALL ABOARD! Seriously, I was very disappointed in Shallan getting married, but when I saw Ash and Taln, I couldn't help myself. Combined with my hunch that the gap between books 5 and 6 is a desolation and the fact that we're at least one Herald short, but with a brand new Bondsmith, and I'm expecting someone we know and love to get trapped in Damnation for the duration of the break. Why not Shallan and Kaladin, and why shouldn't they come out the other side much, much closer? 1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said: And of course I'm expecting a WoB at some point which unequivocally says Kaladin is out of the picture to blow it all up, and then I can go back to thinking it's just a poorly written plotline Me too, me too. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 36 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: That isn't entirely true - she draws Jasnah as she remembers her from their last night on the ship together. That's months later and it is still clear. It wasn't even drawing a proper memory. We also see her lightweave by instinct for the first time (as she lightweaves herself as a weeping girl). That suggests more than just practice to me. Shallan's drawings of Jasnah are specifically said to be "an interpretation that was not exact". She's attempting to go beyond simply copying to creating. I think there's a WoB somewhere that Shallan normally shouldn't need her drawings the way she uses them. Pattern says this in WoR as well, or something like that. Shallan feels that she can create the image of her as a broken girl because she knows it so well - it's a special exception. 36 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: I don't know that it isn't possible. I think Syl was probably more dead than Pattern and just because Shallan doesn't consciously remember something doesn't mean she doesn't subconsciously (she remembered her mother's death, she'd just suppressed it). Its not like the memories just disappear. Shallan is a very unreliable narrator. We know the other Cryptics are literally there. The one Shallan talks to doesn't talk quite like Pattern. She thinks the voice is different. I'm not going to ignore all that in combination without a really good reason. 36 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: She makes colour on the deck of the wind's pleasure. She has drawn pattern then but not summoned him otherwise. Its a major step forward. Hmm? The deck going green is after Shallan summons Pattern. He's there and specifically trying to make Shallan remember her past. Or do you mean summoned him as a Shardblade? In which case I'm not sure what you're getting at. 36 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: Yes, but she needed to get back to it. Shallan vaguely remembers lights and patterns she played with as a child. That seems much more basic than anything she does in WoR - making herself prettier/dress better etc to convince the deserters to support her is a major step up from that - getting to Veil from there, I agree is more about practice. Sounds are not inherently more complex than images. Illumination is a surge of light and sound. Pattern specifically tells her this. She has limited herself to what she can draw, but there were other artistic types before the Recreance (poets/authors and iirc musicians). They would have manipulated the skill differently than Shallan would - eg I would imagine a musician or an author to manage sound better than Shallan does because those are easy to imagine when you write them down in either word or notation format. Are you saying that it's a pure coincidence that Shallan figured out how to do sound after her level up and that it's unrelated? Illumination is said to be the Surge of "Light, Sound and Various Waveforms". I don't think it's unreasonable that some aspects of that become much easier at higher Ideals. Perhaps a musician focused Lightweaver would have been able to create sound at the 3rd Ideal but struggled with it but became great at it as the 4th Ideal? Maybe we'll see the "various waveforms" bit when Shallan hits the 5th Ideal? (perhaps making solids vibrate, for example) I would like to know more about how other Lightweavers do it too. 36 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: As I said, it isnt the "killing" that matters it is accepting responsibility of "murder". Its not the same thing at all. Her murder of Tyn was self defence. Her murder of her father wasn't - it was premeditated (albeit for only a short time before she committed it). You could argue that Tyn's death was manslaughter. You can't do that with Lin. We seem to be talking about very different things here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoddessIMHO Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 I think we need to know more about the Cryptics before we can make too many theories. They seem to be different from the other spren. The other spren don't like or trust them and that seems something that Pattern is proud about. They are famous! Pattern doesn't seem as afraid of dying as Syl. The Honor spren live together in a city which may explain WR attracting spren who want to bond other WR. But Shallan was drawing multiple Cryptics at one point too. Coppermind doesn't have much to say either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 Spoilered because, well, you know Spoiler 2 hours ago, PhineasGage said: Woo, We caught another one! Also, don't be silly, we wouldn't make you be pulled along in a dinghy - for one thing it has a hole in it. No-one minds a skeptic here as long as you are willing to go down with the ship. I'm very loyal once I commit. No promises though if we get a cannon blast to the side of the ship in SA4 that I won't swim for shore 2 hours ago, PhineasGage said: See now this is why I ended up in Shalladin anyway. The foreshadowing. I mean, assuming we're right, then it is foreshadowing, but if not, well then it is just food for fanfics. This is how entrenchment happens... but I literally cannot see it not being foreshadowing.... I mean, I'll put Shalladin at 85-90% certainty or so, because maybe that could turn a different way. But, the sitting down when Adolin saw the "real" her....? That makes me put Shadolin at about 1-2% possibility of survival. Sanderson is too careful to let this kind of symbolism slide. I think he's too careful for this whole arc to have so many little things wrong. The fact anyone is questioning it (and it appears the beta readers, who seem to be pretty much on the SS Shadolin, were questioning it at well) means it's just not tying together. If I can see these really minor tweaks which would strengthen the obvious conclusion - Adolin as the end goal - then Sanderson, who is a MUCH better writer than me, can see them as well. It's not rocket science to use symbolism to strengthen an obvious plotline; it is rocket science (and brilliance) to use symbolism to subtlety undermine an obvious plotline. (@SLNC thinking about your sapphire dress here as well.) Oh, myopia, you are a beautiful thing. 2 hours ago, PhineasGage said: I find him relatively dull so far - not because he is sunny - I don't need him to go dark or anything (though I worry he might) but because so much of his arc has been about his relationship with Shallan. Yeah... so far he's played off against Dalinar's story in WoK and then Shallan's story in WoR. It's a complaint I hear a lot from his fans; that he hasn't had his own arc. I really hope he doesn't go dark; from what we've seen, it doesn't seem to follow his character for him to truly snap at anything. Maybe become depressed (for instance, about the circumstances of Evi's death), but we already have one mopey character... But, bottom line, seeing him as the perfect husband to Shallan doesn't do anything for me. It's just more of the same. 2 hours ago, Rainier said: I'm expecting someone we know and love to get trapped in Damnation for the duration of the break. Why not Shallan and Kaladin, and why shouldn't they come out the other side much, much closer? In my little fanfic world, I'm seeing them in a relationship before they (voluntarily) get sent to Damnation. I see parallels between this struggle and what they faced together in the chasms; sort of a we faced the depths of hell together before and came out the other side stronger, so we can do it again. Oh, actual question instead of Shalladin gushing... @Rainier are you thinking back 5 characters will go to damnation too? (Jasnah, Lift, Renarin, Ash and Taln.) I was thinking just front 5, and maybe Venli or Eshonai depending on what Eshonai's deal is now besides just dead in the physical realm, along with the existing heralds to flesh out the orders. Could definitely see it being our full contingent of flashback characters, though! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted November 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Regarding where I see the Sandermuda plot going on next books (spoiler tag for known reasons) Spoiler 6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Where will Shallan's arc go? (Obvious wish fulfillment going on here.) Yeah, I know, A LOT of wish fulfillment/fanfiction going on in book 4 in Shallan's arc being about finding her independence, but one can dream! I think the marriage ship will get holes really fast on the next book. A relation-ship sinking on both sides but neither one of them explicitly stating it. Not sure if Adolin becomes a KR, I would love to see that though. I think he has the potential to be a very interesting figure without being a tragic dark knight trope, but I wouldn't mind seeing that either. And as soon as Shallan has a breakthrough with her herself and realizes feelings towards Kaladin, he somehow exits the picture. Some kind of captivity, maybe dying. (Jezriens job position is open after all). Meanwhile the marriage completely falls apart, Shallan gains more abilities on her own (because she can be the strong one only if she stands on her own). Not sure how the rest of it will go, I can't tell yet, but it needs to get really really dark before the dawn and the conclusion of the romance plot. I'd like it to end before the main plot arc though, so I can enjoy the main plot without worrying how this will turn out. I want to have it out of the way at some point, because honestly after so many years of anticipation, it will drag on too much. 5 hours ago, PhineasGage said: but at least we are in good company right? TBH, I felt the Shalladin vibe from the boot moments in WoR and I loved how it all progressed into the chasms scene. I was pleasantly surprised even if I was rooting it all along the way. I got hooked. I found the BS lecture video on YouTube and I was convinced they were the 'opposites attract' but didn't want to keep my hopes up, because maybe I'd be pleasantly surprised again. Now with the OB marriage ending, I got unpleasantly surprised. I had to find justification to my feelings of heavy disappointment. I found this forum and all of you lovely people's posts and I feel that I've gained back my sanity. Thank you for sticking to it even if it does end a sinking ship. Edited November 30, 2017 by insert_anagram_here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: . @Rainier are you thinking back 5 characters will go to damnation too? (Jasnah, Lift, Renarin, Ash and Taln.) Yeah, actually, I do think it will be all 10. I don't see any of the crazy Heralds volunteering except for Taln and Ash (due to guilt). I see the remaining 8 background characters as pretty good Heralds in their own right. I'm absolutely convinced that the break between 5/6 is going to be the break between Desolations. That means someone has to go back to Damnation. Of course this relies on Ash being a Dustrbringer, not a Lightweaver, this time around. 2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Yeah... so far he's played off against Dalinar's story in WoK and then Shallan's story in WoR. It's a complaint I hear a lot from his fans; that he hasn't had his own arc. I mean, he's not a main character, he's a side character. That's like complaining we haven't seen enough Rock POV, and Rock hasn't had his own story. Or that we haven't had enough time for Navani to do her own thing. These characters are not meant to drive the story, they are meant to supplement the main characters. I personally really liked Adolin-the-son much more than Adolin-the-suitor. His interactions with Dalinar in The Way of Kings were great, and I loved him as a duelist in Words of Radiance. I just don't want him anywhere near Shallan as a romantic interest. Like Kaladin, individually I like them both, together I can't stand them. Oh, and what happened to Adolin the womanizer? We see him run through a few women, but we never see what he does to drive them away (except for one hint that he started wooing her sister). We never see anything from him that would drive Shallan away, or give any hints at his allegedly womanizing past. It seems like he was described as a playboy dilettante, but that never actually happened on screen. He just falls in love with Shallan and that's it. 46 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: Now with the OB marriage ending, I got unpleasantly surprised. I had to find justification to my feelings of heavy disappointment. I got impatient and wanted to read the full Ketek, so I looked it up in the online pages. And then I saw Shallan's marriage and my heart sank. I kept up hope for about three chapters after that, but it hung over the ending for me like a storm cloud. Then when it actually happened....blech. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoddessIMHO Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Rainier said: Oh, and what happened to Adolin the womanizer? We see him run through a few women, but we never see what he does to drive them away (except for one hint that he started wooing her sister). We never see anything from him that would drive Shallan away, or give any hints at his allegedly womanizing past. It seems like he was described as a playboy dilettante, but that never actually happened on screen. He just falls in love with Shallan and that's it. He was immediately happy that finding a mate was taken care of by Jasnah. He wasn't happy about all the failure he had faced in relationships. From all indications he never looked at anyone else after they met. Of course, everyone was pretty busy what with gem runs and duels and fighting each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeployParachute Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: I really hope he doesn't go dark; from what we've seen, it doesn't seem to follow his character for him to truly snap at anything. Ah, but let is not forget that Adolin is perfectly capable of snapping, and in the most violent of ways. He brutally murdered a highprince, and not only that, but... Spoiler Of course, he carried another weapon: his belt knife, long and thin. A weapon intended for stabbing armored men. It had felt so satisfying to shove it through Sadeas’s eye. He still didn’t know whether to feel ashamed or proud. Oathbringer Ch 83: "Crimson to Break" p797 Kindle edition He took pleasure in doing so. This wasn't just some dispassionate execution that needed to be done. Something distasteful that someone had to do. He may tell others it needed to be done, and he took it upon himself to do it. But it was heat of the moment, and he enjoyed it. I don't think he's going to be telling his father that little secret any time soon. This is the only crack that I can find in the impenetrable White Knight armour that Adolin wears, and if Brandon didn't take advantage of it, I think it would be a waste. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywatch Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 1 hour ago, DeployParachute said: He took pleasure in doing so. This wasn't just some dispassionate execution that needed to be done. Something distasteful that someone had to do. He may tell others it needed to be done, and he took it upon himself to do it. But it was heat of the moment, and he enjoyed it. I don't think he's going to be telling his father that little secret any time soon. This is the only crack that I can find in the impenetrable White Knight armour that Adolin wears, and if Brandon didn't take advantage of it, I think it would be a waste. I think that plotline would do well to highlight the most interesting relationship Adolin has - his relationship to Dalinar. It already is a strong case to compare/contrast; sometimes Adolin is clearly what Dalinar sees when he thinks that Adolin is a better man than he is. The way it happened, we see that Adolin is also his father's son in this way, too. I can't believe that Dalinar would - or could - judge Adolin for a wrathful spirit, but certainly an element that Adolin has to face up to not being as good as man as Dalinar thinks he is. Whether he admits it to anyone else - well, I wish we weren't right at the beginning of the wait for SA4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomness Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 I've been reading some of Shallan last POVs and I really think her optimism at the end of OB was Shallan deluding herself again. I´ll quote some parts: Quote “Pattern hummed from the side of Veil’s jacket. “Shallan? You did well, Shallan. Very well.” “An honorable stand,” Radiant agreed. “One against many, and we held our ground.” “Longer than we should have,” Veil said. “We were already exhausted.” “We’re still ignoring too much,” Shallan said. “We’re getting too good at pretending.” She had decided to stay with Jasnah in the first place to learn. But when the woman returned from the dead, Shallan had—instead of accepting training—immediately fled. What had she been thinking? Nothing. She’d been trying to hide away things she didn’t want to face. Like always. “Mmm…” Pattern said, a concerned hum.” “I’m tired,” Shallan whispered. “You don’t have to worry. After I rest, I’ll recover and settle down to being just one. I actually … actually don’t think I’m quite as lost as I was before.” Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. Here we see her thinking of herself as 3 different, independent women. She treats Radiant and Veil as different people, yet she wants to be recognized as herself... () Quote “Radiant worried they’d leave the city undefended in their reverie. And what had become of the enemy that had been fighting in the streets? The defenders had to make certain this wasn’t an elaborate feint. Veil worried about looting. A city in chaos often proved how feral it could become. Veil wanted to be out on the streets, looking for people likely to be robbed, and making sure they were cared for.” Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. So if Radiant is the logical one, and Veil the compassionate and social driven drunk, "Shallan" is not any of those things? Quote “That voice. She opened her eyes to find Adolin scrambling across the wall to her. He skidded a little as he fell to his knees beside her, then raised his hands—only to hesitate, as if confronted by something very fragile. “Don’t look at me like that,” Veil said. “I’m not some delicate piece of crystal.” Adolin narrowed his eyes. “Truly,” Radiant said. “I’m a soldier as much as the men atop this wall. Treat me—other than in obvious respects—as you would treat them.” “Shallan…” Adolin said, taking her hand. “What?” Veil asked. “Something’s wrong.” “Of course it is,” Radiant said. “This fighting has left us all thoroughly worn out.” Adolin searched her eyes. She bled from one, to the other, and back. A moment of Veil. A moment of Radiant. Shallan peeking through— Adolin’s hand tightened around her own. Shallan’s breath caught. There, she thought. That’s the one. That’s the one I am.He knows.” Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. She creates 3 personas, extrapolating several characteristics and becoming a lesser self. We know she IS the 3 of them, but she more and more thinks she is not. Then, she chooses to identify with "Shallan" as the dominant persona, and that is an improvement since last time. Thats why this moment with Adolin is so important to her. On the other hand, Adolin, as the rest of the characters, think of her as Shallan, not Veil or Radiant (Shallan tells him about them in Shadesmar IIRC) Quote “Kaladin settled down, blue eyes shining, flanked by Rock and Lopen. Soldiers all along the walk turned toward him. Even in a battle with multiple Knights Radiant, there was something about the way Kaladin flew, the way he moved. Veil immediately took over. She pulled herself to her feet as Kaladin strode along the wall to meet with Dalinar. What happened to his boots? “Shallan?” Adolin asked. “A palanquin sounds great,” Veil said. “Thanks.” Adolin blushed, then nodded and strode toward one of the stairwells down into the city. “Mmm…” Pattern said. “I’m confused.” “We need to approach this from a logical position,” Radiant said. “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months, ever since those days we spent in the chasms with Stormblessed. I’ve begun to consider that a relationship between two Knights Radiant is likely to accomplish a more equitable union.” “Also,” Veil added, “look at those eyes. Simmering with barely bridled emotion.” She walked toward him, grinning. Then slowed.Adolin knows me.” Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. So this is her anagnorisis (I don't feel like talking about the choice). I just think it is very curious that she denies the characteristics that "belong" to Veil and Radiant. As long as Veil and Radiant are the ones attracted to Kal, she is ok. I wonder who she thinks "Shallan" is... Quote “When she let him out of the kiss, he grabbed her and pulled her close, breathing heavily. “Are you … are you sure?” he asked. “I just … Don’t glare at me, Shallan. I have to say this. The world is full of gods and Heralds now, and you’re one of them. I’m practically a nobody. I’m not used to that feeling.” “Then it’s probably the best thing that’s ever happened to you, Adolin Kholin. Well. Except for me.” She snuggled against him. “I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.”“That’s worrisome, Shallan.” “I won’t let her act on it. I promise.”“I didn’t mean that,” Adolin said. “I meant … you, Shallan. Becoming other people.” “We’re all different people at different times. Remember?” “Not the same way as you.” “I know,” she said. “But I … I think I’ve stopped leaking into new personas. Three for now.” She turned around, smiling at him, his hands still around her waist. “How do you like that, though? Three betrotheds instead of one. ” I think she practically bullied the guy into marrying her. He is in love with her, but we can see he is worried, and rightfully so. She keeps saying she's fine, even though she knows that Adolin knows she is not fine (how can he "see her" and think she is all right?). Anyway, I´ll read the remaining POV soon. I think there was an interesting quote from Pattern. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Awesomness said: On the other hand, Adolin, as the rest of the characters, think of her as Shallan, not Veil or Radiant (Shallan tells him about them in Shadesmar IIRC) And what is even worse is, that Adolin is acting around Veil as if she is a different person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Good Morning Good Morning! Epic length post time again I'm afraid. But then if you all didn't make such interesting points I wouldn't have to comment so you are all partly responsible 14 hours ago, Awesomness said: We see Kal using surges many times before Teft tipped him on the first words. But he was certainly choosing life before death, etc. I really really doubt little Shallan and little Lift new the first words either. I think that's the reason why Shallan in OB is still struggling with Transformation even though she is 4th level. Pattern sort of forced her to say the truth, she cannot go backwards now, but she isn't accepting it either. We also see Pattern becoming more erratic, as a result. She needs to make peace with this truth to fully be on level 4th. Yes I agree - I think progression through levels is a spike/steep slope at the "Ideal" stage then a gentler rise towards the next one - that slow progression happens both through practice of the surgebinding skills but also through gaining self-awareness and awareness of what needs to be done. I think this is true for all the KR orders, but self awareness is particularly important for LW. 12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: Shallan's drawings of Jasnah are specifically said to be "an interpretation that was not exact". She's attempting to go beyond simply copying to creating. I think there's a WoB somewhere that Shallan normally shouldn't need her drawings the way she uses them. Pattern says this in WoR as well, or something like that. Shallan feels that she can create the image of her as a broken girl because she knows it so well - it's a special exception. My point was that she felt it was a faithful representation of something she had seen - the fact it is an interpretation is not that important - it is one of the first times we see her do something that is both "true" and a "lie" that doesn't relate to herself (nb Veil is a version of Shallan in WoR). She hadn't taken a memory of Jasnah and even if she had, it was a good month or two since Jasnah's "death". So even if she'd embellished, it was still showing her memory improving, which was my point. Regarding the 2nd bit I quoted - this is my point. It isn't an exception to the LW as a whole - it's an exception for Shallan because of how she perceives her power. I think we have to assume that because of her background, everything she does might be very different to normal LW progression - if, as you suggest she was at 4 when she killed her mother (which whilst I don't necessarily think has to be right, I do agree it is a perfectly good theory) and has regressed because pain etc, then everything she does is a bit broken until she re-attains that level. If, instead, she was level 2 as I suggested, but broke her bond by Pattern forcing it to become a shardblade, then again, everything would be a bit broken until she gets to a level where she should have a shardblade (imo level 4). The reason she then breaks more in my theory is that she was coerced into hitting her 4th ideal by Pattern, probably a bit early, and that she hasn't accepted it. She still fights the idea of the blade and so ends up fragmenting her personality. 12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: We know the other Cryptics are literally there. The one Shallan talks to doesn't talk quite like Pattern. She thinks the voice is different. I'm not going to ignore all that in combination without a really good reason. She says Pattern sounds different when she goes to Shadesmar and interacts with Stick there (WoR). I think the presence of the other Cryptics was vital, but I don't think they had to have a temporary bond, just that they forced her to confront some of her memories. The temporary bond may have been a thing but I am not sure we have evidence that such a thing can form? 12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: Hmm? The deck going green is after Shallan summons Pattern. He's there and specifically trying to make Shallan remember her past. Or do you mean summoned him as a Shardblade? In which case I'm not sure what you're getting at. I think we are talking at cross purposes. Sorry! To me, her drawing is her pulling him into the pRealm. Summoning him refers to the blade form. She "summons" him as a blade to kill Tyn. She draws him on the ship and then starts lightweaving. That said, we see her lightweave with Hoid in her flashback (ch 45) when they meet at the Middlefest. I am reasonably sure that's her because she draws in stormlight and she shapes the images a bit rather than it being Hoid. It may have been both.But if it is Shallan, she can lightweave without having summoned Pattern either way. 12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: Are you saying that it's a pure coincidence that Shallan figured out how to do sound after her level up and that it's unrelated? Illumination is said to be the Surge of "Light, Sound and Various Waveforms". I don't think it's unreasonable that some aspects of that become much easier at higher Ideals. Perhaps a musician focused Lightweaver would have been able to create sound at the 3rd Ideal but struggled with it but became great at it as the 4th Ideal? Maybe we'll see the "various waveforms" bit when Shallan hits the 5th Ideal? (perhaps making solids vibrate, for example) I would like to know more about how other Lightweavers do it too. Yes, pretty much. If she weren't able to do sound because she hadn't attained the level then, as I said, other artistic forms that rely on sound would be pretty useless until they got to a higher level. Its all about Shallan's perception. I think her level up made her able to produce more illusions and give them substance (via resonance with transformation) which is definitely new and also very powerful. I very much agree we could do with seeing another LW - it is difficult to tell the universal rules for LW from Shallan as so much of her personal situation may be unique to her. We also don't know how strict the attainment of new powers is regarding LW - tho I think it is reasonable that all get illumination before transformation but perhaps they all use it very differently? 12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: We seem to be talking about very different things here Ok, so what are you getting at? I thought you were saying that her killing her father isn't a truth that levels her because she couldn't ignore it? I am saying it is a truth because she said she murdered her father, not just that she killed him and that accepting the idea of being a murderer was important to her progression. @Dreamstorm - spoilered for reasons Spoiler 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: No promises though if we get a cannon blast to the side of the ship in SA4 that I won't swim for shore Ha - good luck with that - we haven't seen land for months. 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: This is how entrenchment happens... but I literally cannot see it not being foreshadowing.... Yeah - on the plus side living in our bubble might help us float when the ship finally sinks. 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: But, bottom line, seeing him as the perfect husband to Shallan doesn't do anything for me. It's just more of the same. Yeah - *sigh*. I feel like I'm caught between a rock and a hard place - I don't want to see Adolin be a bad husband, but I don't want to watch him still be the Adolin we know. I am having trouble reconciling that. 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: 13 hours ago, Rainier said: I'm expecting someone we know and love to get trapped in Damnation for the duration of the break. Why not Shallan and Kaladin, and why shouldn't they come out the other side much, much closer? In my little fanfic world, I'm seeing them in a relationship before they (voluntarily) get sent to Damnation. I see parallels between this struggle and what they faced together in the chasms; sort of a we faced the depths of hell together before and came out the other side stronger, so we can do it again. I certainly agree Kaladin is being set up to go to Braize. He breaks all the other rules after all. I'm less sure about the others, and I can see them sending Kal to Braize with the other original heralds in an attempt to pause the situation. Then maybe it fails to do that because someone breaks. I can't see it being Kal but you never know. @insert_anagram_here Spoiler 9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: Shallan has a breakthrough with her herself and realizes feelings towards Kaladin, he somehow exits the picture I perosnally would like Shallan to come to some realisation about her feeings for Adolin, (ie they aren't that deep) and not have Kal involved initially. We don't need a reverse of the whole choice thing - she should choose herself first imo. The Kal thing can happen later once she knows who she is. 9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: Thank you for sticking to it even if it does end a sinking ship. To quote Dido: "I will go down with this Ship, I won't put my hand's up and surrender." 8 hours ago, Rainier said: Yeah, actually, I do think it will be all 10. I don't see any of the crazy Heralds volunteering except for Taln and Ash (due to guilt). I see the remaining 8 background characters as pretty good Heralds in their own right. I'm absolutely convinced that the break between 5/6 is going to be the break between Desolations. That means someone has to go back to Damnation. Of course this relies on Ash being a Dustrbringer, not a Lightweaver, this time around. I think this is certainly plausible - Kaladin certainly is being set up to go. 8 hours ago, Rainier said: I personally really liked Adolin-the-son much more than Adolin-the-suitor. His interactions with Dalinar in The Way of Kings were great, and I loved him as a duelist in Words of Radiance. I agree - he feels more.... real? He gets angry about things, but calms down, he grows more as a result of his argument with Dalinar about the visions than any other part of his arc so far. 8 hours ago, Rainier said: Oh, and what happened to Adolin the womanizer? Well his eyes do still wander in WoR but that seems to have stopped *sigh*. It is vaguely annoying because unless Shallan or Renarin have accidentally transformed him into the "perfect" Adolin, it seems a bit out of character. People don't change that fast, if at all. 7 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said: From all indications he never looked at anyone else after they met. Of course, everyone was pretty busy what with gem runs and duels and fighting each other. Not true - he looks at the darkeyed Master servant at the winehouse (chapter 49) and Shallan thinks in chapter 63 "His eyes did wander and she had to admit that wasn't something that pleased her". which implies that it has happened more than once. She just doesn't get super possessive over it, that's all. 4 hours ago, DeployParachute said: Of course, he carried another weapon: his belt knife, long and thin. A weapon intended for stabbing armored men. It had felt so satisfying to shove it through Sadeas’s eye. He still didn’t know whether to feel ashamed or proud. Eugh, I missed that. That is more worrying than anything Maybe it's just me, but isn't shame the normal reaction? I mean, even people who kill their partners after years of abuse feel a mix of shame and relief - they don't describe feeling "proud" usually. 2 hours ago, Awesomness said: So if Radiant is the logical one, and Veil the compassionate and social driven drunk, "Shallan" is not any of those things? Not exactly. You can get to compassion and logic via different means. For example, Veil is extroverted and Shallan introverted. Veil gets to her compassion by wanting to immerse herself in people (people watching, understanding and interacting with them) and Shallan can get there by being introverted and wanting the best for people in a less hands on, more philosophical way. She is an EP imo so she doesn't want people to hurt because she knows what that feels like. Most people IRL are compassionate, just to different degrees - but the route they take to get to it is different. If you have multiple traits that lead you towards compassion, then you will likely be considered very compassionate. On top of that, compassion is something that is affected by experience and learned behaviour. For example, someone who is racist may be compassionate to people they consider "their kind" but incapable of that same compassion to people of a different "race". Race is a social construct - whilst there are some physical differences between the races, we are one species. If you wiped out the entire population of humans except for Papua New Guinea, you'd still have 98% of the genomic variation that is present in humans as a whole. This means that racism is a learned behavior. We aren't born like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 (edited) Back to my one and only true love... talking about things I shouldn't as spoilers Spoiler 21 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: Shallan gains more abilities on her own (because she can be the strong one only if she stands on her own) I'm happy with just about any storyline for Shallan as long as this is part of it. Please, please, please make this part of Shallan's arc Brandon!! But, while I guess I'm OK with Shallan's attraction for Kaladin being a catalyst for Shallan to reexamine her relationship, I don't want it to be the reason; that it's just about liking the other boy better. 21 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: TBH, I felt the Shalladin vibe from the boot moments in WoR and I loved how it all progressed into the chasms scene. I was pleasantly surprised even if I was rooting it all along the way. I got hooked. I found the BS lecture video on YouTube and I was convinced they were the 'opposites attract' but didn't want to keep my hopes up, because maybe I'd be pleasantly surprised again. Now with the OB marriage ending, I got unpleasantly surprised. I had to find justification to my feelings of heavy disappointment. I found this forum and all of you lovely people's posts and I feel that I've gained back my sanity. Thank you for sticking to it even if it does end a sinking ship. So I actually saw the triangle back in the first chapter of WoR when Jasnah tells Shallan she's betrothed but was totally wrong at where it was headed; I thought since Adolin and Kaladin were at each other's throats the whole time, Shallan would be another pawn in their development. Safe to say, it turned out completely differently than I thought, and I'm so glad it did. Avoiding the "guys fighting over the girl" awfulness is one thing, even if we remain moored at sea, I will forever be grateful for. 10 hours ago, PhineasGage said: To quote Dido: "I will go down with this Ship, I won't put my hand's up and surrender." Theme song for the Knights Shalladin aboard the SS Shalladin. @Ailvara's been working on the oaths... so far there's "sailing before landing" 20 hours ago, Rainier said: I personally really liked Adolin-the-son much more than Adolin-the-suitor. His interactions with Dalinar in The Way of Kings were great, and I loved him as a duelist in Words of Radiance. I just don't want him anywhere near Shallan as a romantic interest. Like Kaladin, individually I like them both, together I can't stand them. Oh, and what happened to Adolin the womanizer? We see him run through a few women, but we never see what he does to drive them away (except for one hint that he started wooing her sister). We never see anything from him that would drive Shallan away, or give any hints at his allegedly womanizing past. It seems like he was described as a playboy dilettante, but that never actually happened on screen. He just falls in love with Shallan and that's it. 10 hours ago, PhineasGage said: I agree - he feels more.... real? He gets angry about things, but calms down, he grows more as a result of his argument with Dalinar about the visions than any other part of his arc so far. Well his eyes do still wander in WoR but that seems to have stopped *sigh*. It is vaguely annoying because unless Shallan or Renarin have accidentally transformed him into the "perfect" Adolin, it seems a bit out of character. People don't change that fast, if at all. I was recently walked through the Shallan/Adolin relationship timeline, and like you guys allude to, it seemed so perfect to me as to almost be a little off somehow. Like perfect to the point of unrealistic. (Yeah, supposedly Kaladin inserts the tension, but honestly he really didn't. Or more to say, that wasn't a tension because of how Shallan and Adolin's characters meld.) In a real relationship, you will have personality tension - one person will be impulsive and the other cautious, or something like that. The only thing I can think of here is that Adolin is a little over-protective, but even that is so minor and doesn't cause any discord (when she chides him after the chasms on this issue, he's like, ok no worries!) So, where I'm going here is this: before Shallan enters the Alethi court and meets Adolin for the first time (Ch. 36, A New Woman) is actually the first time Shallan Lightweaves herself into a persona. (And the chapter title! Just noticed that!) So, not only has Adolin never even seen the "real" Shallan (note Kal hasn't either unless you count her in the Horneater guise as the real her), but more importantly, Shallan has never interacted with Adolin as the real Shallan. As we see in OB, Shallan herself is very different when she is "Shallan" vs. Veil vs. Radiant - she actually processes things differently. So, Shallan, the whole Shallan which is all three of those personas, has never even experienced Adolin and her relationship with Adolin. So.... since we see most of the Adolin/Shallan relationship through the eyes of "Shallan", is it possible that it's a warped perception and everything is not as perfect as it seems? (Is it possible we have a warped perception of Adolin altogether based on how "Shallan" is portraying him??) I'm going to keep a close eye on how other people view the relationship in my reread (still on WoK and keep getting distracted lol) to see if others see it as perfect as we see "Shallan" seeing it. Off the top of my head, it takes Navani a while to come around and obviously Kaladin doesn't like them together (though we can say that's jealousy, but maybe more to it.) Btw, I hadn't remembered Shallan Lightweaved to create "Shallan" that early, and more likely, it wasn't that significant to me until after OB. In Chapter 38, we see her rely on this persona: "The image she'd drawn of herself came to the rescue. She could be that woman today - and that woman, while not emotionless, could push through the loss." Edited December 1, 2017 by Dreamstorm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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