[OB] Wit's advice

[Dreamstorm]

30 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, he's hot. So? I would have been very surprised, if Shallan hadn't acknowledged that.

Haha, it's a lot more than that. She genuinely like him. They get along really well. They work well together in stressful situations. I hate how this ended (with the hand grabbing moment), but I think it's stretching to say they didn't have a solid relationship foundation  I think perhaps more than anything this is meant to be her choosing "stability" over "sparks", which Brandon sees as a mature decision on her part. 

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Contradictory said:

...I might be in the only camp that feels Shallan was done well. Her story has resonated with me since WoR (mainly due to going through similar scenarios myself,  relatively speaking of course). With her and Adolin's scene of him recognising her, I see it as her drawing from an anchor a la a close friend - someone she trusts - more than a romantic thing. I don't think most of the issues people have raised would have occurred had Shallan not had access to Lightweaving (or at least not as big an issue as others have said). She's definitely on the right track to healing, but she still has a fair way to go.

I think you're in the majority!!! I just wish she would have had agency... if only SHE had made the decision of which personality dominated and then Adolin recognized that she had done so. We still see that he really "sees" her, but with her getting the empowerment out of it. 

3 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Would it have made a difference to anyone if instead of Adolin giving her the support and stabilizing 'love' that she desired and never had if it had been say , Navani, as a mother figure?

Using that to remove the male/female dynamic that seems to so irritate/enrage some of you.

Yes, I would feel better because it would eliminate the "leaning on your man" angle, but I would still prefer Shallan herself come into these moments on her own. Overall, I'm still upset our male protagonists get to have their moments by struggling through on their own and our female protagonist needs to rely on someone else. It makes it worse she's relying on a man, but either one puts her in a position where she has less agency vis-a-vis the male characters. 

[Guest]

Just now, Dreamstorm said:

Haha, it's a lot more than that. She genuinely like him. They get along really well. They work well together in stressful situations. I hate how this ended (with the hand grabbing moment), but I think it's stretching to say they didn't have a solid relationship foundation  I think perhaps more than anything this is meant to be her choosing "stability" over "sparks", which Brandon sees as a mature decision on her part. 

Hey! We were talking about when they first met.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

In the scene at the end that I asked Brandon about, Shallan is sitting down at the time and Adolin is only looking at her eyes (and Navani and Jasnah didn't seem to notice anything too unusual just prior).

Ok, sorry to drag this thread back in a direction we don't want to go, but THIS is what I mean by what are supposed to do with this ending.  Wit's chapter where he gives Shallan his advice is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", and his advice is partly to see that she is the one standing up.  And here, in her big moment of finding herself, she is sitting down...  This just feels so sloppy.  For goodness sake, even if the girl needs a man to find the "real" her, can she at least stand up while doing so?  When standing up was given so much symbolism earlier in the book??

ETA - Sorry for the rant, but I'm really trying to get behind this ending, but I notice things like this and it just makes it so, so hard.  I just want to be sold on this ending!

ETA2 - I'm spoilering this bc it's love triangle related.  

Spoiler

Just re-read this part, and when Kaladin lands on the wall, she then pulls herself to her feet.  I mean... can't we at least have her standing up for Adolin's finding of her and then slumping against the wall when Kaladin lands?  Give me some storming symbolism that makes sense please!!

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[kari-no-sugata]

14 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Would it have made a difference to anyone if instead of Adolin giving her the support and stabilizing 'love' that she desired and never had if it had been say , Navani, as a mother figure?

Using that to remove the male/female dynamic that seems to so irritate/enrage some of you.

I had been wondering if we might see some mother/daughter type interactions between Shallan and Palona early on. Shallan did feel that Palona was "mothering" her after all, in Part 1. It seems they got along well enough from the brief bits we saw (more in WoR). I would have been fine with something between Shallan and Navani as well, but unfortunately we saw nothing about them from either POV.

I'm not sure that would have been enough to make a significant enough difference to Shallan though. To give an alternative, let's say Jasnah noticed that Shallan didn't think much of her accomplishments (in WoR) and so Jasnah took the time to go over with Shallan everything she had achieved and thank her for it. After all, without Shallan, Jasnah's family would probably have been in a much worse state - quite possibly wiped out. If Jasnah did that I think that would have meant a lot for Shallan.

 

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Contradictory said:

...I might be in the only camp that feels Shallan was done well. Her story has resonated with me since WoR (mainly due to going through similar scenarios myself,  relatively speaking of course). With her and Adolin's scene of him recognising her, I see it as her drawing from an anchor a la a close friend - someone she trusts - more than a romantic thing. I don't think most of the issues people have raised would have occurred had Shallan not had access to Lightweaving (or at least not as big an issue as others have said). She's definitely on the right track to healing, but she still has a fair way to go.

Wit's advice was pretty sound

I enjoyed all the major POV characters a lot in tWoK, but Shallan felt the most unique and interesting (Jasnah also seemed very unique and interesting but we never got her POVs). In WoR, Shallan was even more interesting so I enjoyed that a lot. OB was the first time I struggled to enjoy reading Shallan (not in the whole book, just certain sections). It can be quite hard being a Shallan fan at times but until OB I had always enjoyed reading her (okay, to be honest there were two scenes in WoR that made me cringe a bit).

I'm not an author and I don't have any aspirations to be one but if I were to change the scene where Adolin stares into Shallan's eyes and she suddenly pulls herself together, maybe I would do something like this: Shallan is tiredly sitting against the wall, as before, and decides to pull out her sketchbooks and glance through them all to pass the time (with her personas throwing in various comments). While doing that she realises that all her sketches of Adolin were reliably done well (unlike everyone else). She also realises that she hadn't had a chance to re-evaluate her opinion of Adolin after he told her about killing Sadeas and living a lie in front of everyone else. Shallan realises that she had underestimated Adolin and that they had even more in common than she had previously thought. Veil (and maybe Radiant) then chimes in with some disparaging comments on Adolin and Shallan angrily tells Veil to "Storm off!" When her personas start responding in kind, Shallan takes properly takes control and silences them, as before.

 

I dunno if that would read better but it would give Shallan more agency for a start.

 

22 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm actually curious to hear!  (Either PM or on this thread.)  I see lots of "cute moments" between them, and I'm on board with the idea they have a solid foundation (if I can get the yuck of grabbing hand, staring into eyes and seeing the "real" Shallan out of my head), but I don't see a lot of foreshadowing.  (Like, moments where in another chapter there's one little clue which points to "x" happening even though it's not at all talking about "x".)  But I'd like to know what you've found!

I'll PM you later...

[insert_anagram_here]

I know I've been silent in the last few pages, but I'm still watching this and I have to say....
 

Spoiler

I AM IN DENIAL!

YOU ARE IN DENIAL!

SHE IS IN DENIAL! (all 3 of her)

EVERYONE IS IN DENIAL!!!  

We might as well rename the thread to ASK 2 - Return of the Ship

[Info_Drone-0451]

8 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

We might as well rename the thread to ASK 2 - Return of the Ship

Well that'd be more like ASK 6.

ASK: Episode I: The Phantom Ship

ASK: Episode II: Attack of the Ship

ASK: Episode III: Revenge of the Ship

Bridge Four: An ASK story

ASK: Episode IV: A New Ship

ASK: Episode V: The Ship strikes back

ASK: Episode VI: Return of the Ship

ASK: Episode VII: The Ship Awakens

ASK: Episode VIII: The Last Ship

Please save me from my self!

Edited November 29, 2017 by DimChatz

[Dreamstorm]

16 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm not an author and I don't have any aspirations to be one but if I were to change the scene where Adolin stares into Shallan's eyes and she suddenly pulls herself together, maybe I would do something like this: Shallan is tiredly sitting against the wall, as before, and decides to pull out her sketchbooks and glance through them all to pass the time (with her personas throwing in various comments). While doing that she realises that all her sketches of Adolin were reliably done well (unlike everyone else). She also realises that she hadn't had a chance to re-evaluate her opinion of Adolin after he told her about killing Sadeas and living a lie in front of everyone else. Shallan realises that she had underestimated Adolin and that they had even more in common than she had previously thought. Veil (and maybe Radiant) then chimes in with some disparaging comments on Adolin and Shallan angrily tells Veil to "Storm off!" When her personas start responding in kind, Shallan takes properly takes control and silences them, as before.

I dunno if that would read better but it would give Shallan more agency for a start.

Yes, this works for me!!  And let's have her standing up when she takes control   I'm going to push what actually happened into the recesses of my mind () and believe this is actually what happened.  And then I'm ready for SA4 Shallan.

16 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'll PM you later...

Looking forward to it!

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

Some answers shocked me by how indignant they sounded. "Thanks god its over like that", "Its an oath, dont they dare to break it", "Kaladin is terrible for Shallan", "Kaladin always was just a friend for Shallan", "Adolin is so good because he picked the real Shallan".

Like, really? I wont ask how did they read the book. It just worry me that they might influence Brandon's story. I still secretly hope he rubbed his hands looking at misled betas, because that clearly was his intent to misled the readers who didnt read carefully.

I noticed that too, and laughed. Which order of Knights cares the least about oaths, and is more concerned with truth? Which spren would be most understand of breaking an oath if it came from higher self-awareness? I wonder if we know anyone who might be like that...

 

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For example, I thought Shallan falling for Adolin at first sight was a pretty decent clue.

For all the people bemoaning love-triangle tropes and cliches, I figured love-at-first-sight was the least likely to actually come true. I can live with opposites-attract, and I expected main-character-romance, but love-at-first-sight I thought was the basest, least imaginative trope to use, and thus least likely to be actually used and most likely to be subverted.

 

37 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ok, sorry to drag this thread back in a direction we don't want to go, but THIS is what I mean by what are supposed to do with this ending.  Wit's chapter where he gives Shallan his advice is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", and his advice is partly to see that she is the one standing up.  And here, in her big moment of finding herself, she is sitting down...  This just feels so sloppy.  For goodness sake, even if the girl needs a man to find the "real" her, can she at least stand up while doing so?  When standing up was given so much symbolism earlier in the book??

ETA - Sorry for the rant, but I'm really trying to get behind this ending, but I notice things like this and it just makes it so, so hard.  I just want to be sold on this ending!

ETA2 - I'm spoilering this bc it's love triangle related.  

  Hide contents

Just re-read this part, and when Kaladin lands on the wall, she then pulls herself to her feet.  I mean... can't we at least have her standing up for Adolin's finding of her and then slumping against the wall when Kaladin lands?  Give me some storming symbolism that makes sense please!!

 

It's only sloppy if it isn't showing us that Shallan isn't well, she isn't better, and she's not making the right choices. It's sloppy if she ends up happily ever after with her dreamboat. I'm with you, especially about the symbolism. How can Brandon be so good at subtle foreshadowing when it comes to magic and cosmere and gods and plot, and so bad at doing the same thing with interpersonal relationships? Is he really bad

 

13 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I know I've been silent in the last few pages, but I'm still watching this and I have to say....
 

  Reveal hidden contents

I AM IN DENIAL!

YOU ARE IN DENIAL!

SHE IS IN DENIAL! (all 3 of her)

EVERYONE IS IN DENIAL!!!  

We might as well rename the thread to ASK 2 - Return of the Ship

Well, if that other thread wasn't locked, we wouldn't be here in the first place. A few familiar faces seem to be making the rounds, and we want to talk about Shallan and her taste in men.

[Prelude]

 

52 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ok, sorry to drag this thread back in a direction we don't want to go, but THIS is what I mean by what are supposed to do with this ending.  Wit's chapter where he gives Shallan his advice is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", and his advice is partly to see that she is the one standing up.  And here, in her big moment of finding herself, she is sitting down...  This just feels so sloppy.  For goodness sake, even if the girl needs a man to find the "real" her, can she at least stand up while doing so?  When standing up was given so much symbolism earlier in the book??

ETA - Sorry for the rant, but I'm really trying to get behind this ending, but I notice things like this and it just makes it so, so hard.  I just want to be sold on this ending!

ETA2 - I'm spoilering this bc it's love triangle related.  

  Reveal hidden contents

Just re-read this part, and when Kaladin lands on the wall, she then pulls herself to her feet.  I mean... can't we at least have her standing up for Adolin's finding of her and then slumping against the wall when Kaladin lands?  Give me some storming symbolism that makes sense please!!

@Dreamstorm Brilliant! Though you just made me fall back a few steps in accepting the books outcome. 

 

[DeployParachute]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

We might as well rename the thread to ASK 2 - Return of the Ship

Well, I mean, they did lock the thread that (mostly) kept it contained 

More on the topic of this thread, when I try and evaluate to myself what exactly was Wit's advice, how did Shallan interpret it, and what was the end result by the time of OB conclusion, I try to focus on it through the lens of possible plotting and conflicts and resolutions for future books. 

Shallan has more truths to speak to progress. And I don't believe that these truths are supposed to be minor. These are truths (imo) that Shallan is either completely unaware of, or actively suppressing to the point where she might as well be unaware of them. 

So thinking about what truths that she could speak that would have as big of an emotional and narrative impact enough to progress to the highest levels of radiant, ones that are of the equivalent to "I killed my own mother", "I killed my own father" or even more.  I can't help but think that this is not something Adolin is going to be able to help her with. 

Perhaps her final truth could end up being something like "I am Shallan, and Veil, and Radiant", but in order for that truth to really have impact, I think that her state at end of OB had to be as far from this recognition in Shallan as possible. So my thoughts are that she is very far from this truth, as evidenced in part by her line where she stuffs them down and declares vehemently that "she was occasionally them, but they were NOT her". The fact that her personalities are still present, however, means that this issue will be at the forefront going into the next book, and like I mentioned above, I think Shallans next truth needs to be something that even we as readers may have terrible pinning down or accepting.

Because of this, I do not really believe, truly, that her next truth is going to be related to her split personalities directly, but instead that the healing of her personalities is going to allow her to see the reality of her next truth. 

Spoiler

I do not love Adolin

To me, this would be a very interesting narrative choice to go down, as it ties in very nicely with Tyn's warning in WoR about how getting lost in a lie, believing the lie, would end up destroying her. Not only that, but now that a marriage is involved, she's not just possibly destroying herself, but Adolin and the rest of her new family. With such a plot, we could see some interesting challenges and growth for a number of characters

1. Upon learning this truth, how does Shallan deal with it? Does she address it immediately? Or Does it break her all over again? Perhaps it can even open her up to Odiums influence (further). We're still missing a champion btw, now that Dalinar had declined

2. Adolin will be crushed. He will be broken, he will grieve, he will mourn, he will do something other than play the second fiddle to everyone else's narrative. He might even have a greater chance at reviving that blade (I'm sorry, but if Adolin revives Maya without any kind of major struggle emotionally, then...color me done for finding anything interesting about the character). If murdering Sadeas didn't cause him any emotional it narrative turmoil, then perhaps having a broken heart will.  

I would find it a very compelling narrative that instead of the expected:

-Adolin helps Shallan heal, and then it's happy endings all around

We got

-Adolin helps the woman he loves heal, only for her to realize that after all the initial glamour of their super fast betrothal and marriage, she does not in fact love him the way he loves her

 

So, looking at future narrative possibilities, I put myself in the camp that Shallan did NOT understand Wit's advice, and is not necessarily on the road to recovery, because that allows her to be set up for a more significant truth in future books that can have a rippling impact across the rest of the series.

[PhineasGage]

Hey all, I'm about to go to sleep but thought I'd pop in for one last post tonight. 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think it's stretching to say they didn't have a solid relationship foundation  I think perhaps more than anything this is meant to be her choosing "stability" over "sparks", which Brandon sees as a mature decision on her part.

So I can see that if it is stability over sparks that it would be the better decision. I just don't think that "Without you I fade" suggests stability. For anyone. Maybe it works in the US but as far as I'm concerned if a Brit says that they are only ever being sarcastic. I don't think it is meant to be sarcastic or anything, I just don't think it comes off the page for as many readers as he'd probably like. I'm not even saying Kal is better for stability - I mean d'oh of course he's not. More just.... does she have to choose either of them right now?

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ok, sorry to drag this thread back in a direction we don't want to go, but THIS is what I mean by what are supposed to do with this ending.  Wit's chapter where he gives Shallan his advice is called "The Girl Who Stood Up", and his advice is partly to see that she is the one standing up.  And here, in her big moment of finding herself, she is sitting down...  This just feels so sloppy.  For goodness sake, even if the girl needs a man to find the "real" her, can she at least stand up while doing so?  When standing up was given so much symbolism earlier in the book??

Ha, you're killing me!

Wait, is that a gust of wind?    Perhaps we are no longer becalmed at sea me hearties! Oh, no wait, It's me - just blowing hot air again. My mistake.

5 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Shallan has more truths to speak to progress. And I don't believe that these truths are supposed to be minor. These are truths (imo) that Shallan is either completely unaware of, or actively suppressing to the point where she might as well be unaware of them. 

I agree, although she is 4th level. She has only 1 truth left to speak. Unless there is a way of going backwards with oaths without breaking them. This truth has got to be the biggest of them all. It could still relate to her past though - she attracted Pattern before she killed her mother. There was pain there we haven't seen. That said, we would need at least some minor flashbacks (like we got for Kal in OB) to get it.

45 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm not an author and I don't have any aspirations to be one but if I were to change the scene where Adolin stares into Shallan's eyes and she suddenly pulls herself together, maybe I would do something like this: Shallan is tiredly sitting against the wall, as before, and decides to pull out her sketchbooks and glance through them all to pass the time (with her personas throwing in various comments). While doing that she realises that all her sketches of Adolin were reliably done well (unlike everyone else). She also realises that she hadn't had a chance to re-evaluate her opinion of Adolin after he told her about killing Sadeas and living a lie in front of everyone else. Shallan realises that she had underestimated Adolin and that they had even more in common than she had previously thought. Veil (and maybe Radiant) then chimes in with some disparaging comments on Adolin and Shallan angrily tells Veil to "Storm off!" When her personas start responding in kind, Shallan takes properly takes control and silences them, as before.

I would totally have been on board with this. It is clear, concise, leaves no room for misunderstanding. It would have given Shallan her agency and still allowed for a degree of realism with the whole OSDD thing. I still wouldn't have advocated marriage for mental health reasons alone, but I could have gone along with it for Narrativium reasons.

45 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

We might as well rename the thread to ASK 2 - Return of the Ship

I know. We really ought to start a new one but I still haven't heard back from the admins.

23 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I noticed that too, and laughed. Which order of Knights cares the least about oaths, and is more concerned with truth? Which spren would be most understand of breaking an oath if it came from higher self-awareness? I wonder if we know anyone who might be like that...

Oh good god, now you're killing me. Seriously, why are you all making this harder? (jk I'm loving it)

6 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

So, looking at future narrative possibilities, I put myself in the camp that Shallan did NOT understand Wit's advice, and is not necessarily on the road to recovery, because that allows her to be set up for a more significant truth in future books that can have a rippling impact across the rest of the series.

I totally see where you are coming from. Unfortunately it is WoB that she did take Wit's advice. That kinda messes up your theory - which I think could have been totally awesome.

@GoddessIMHO regarding your question about it being Adolin as the issue: I don't think it would have been better from anyone personally. My personal issue is one of understanding OSDD which Shallan seems to have. I hadn't researched the subject fully before I read OB but I had an instinctive feeling that were dealing with "magically enhanced multiple personality disorder". DID is a real thing. OSDD is a real thing. Just as much as depression and addiction are. Because Brandon handled both depression and addiction very well and sympathetically (subjects I have studied as part of my degree), I had expected another real condition to be handled with just as much care. I had a feeling (based on having a couple of years towards becoming a doctor) that you cannot "recognise" the "real" person when facing someone with any form of identity disorder because those personas are all real. Upon further study, I found out I was right. Frankly, if Kaladin had "recognised" her in exactly the same way I'd have been equally appalled. The fact its a "big strong handsome prince" only makes it worse -  it seems to make him the focus, and not Shallan. This is vital because not only is it the worst thing to do IRL for this condition, but also because from a literary perspective our only major female protagonist had to literally rely on a man to find herself. None of our male protagonists are getting that treatment.

Anyways.... *deep breath*  

All right my lovelies, Here's to the good Ship Shalladin. May she live on in fanfiction and imagination! (And the later SA books if BS has been trolling us this whole time.) Cheers!

Night!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I totally see where you are coming from. Unfortunately it is WoB that she did take Wit's advice. That kinda messes up your theory - which I think could have been totally awesome.

Ah, but the WoB says, that Wit would partly approve of what Shallan did, but say that she still has ways to go. It is hard to argue, that being atleast kind of or apparently stable, is not a step forward. It does not explicitly say, that she did exactly what Wit wanted her to do.

Anyway, good night... I really should go to bed too...

Edited November 29, 2017 by SLNC

[DeployParachute]

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Ah, but the WoB says, that Wit would partly approve of what Shallan did, but say that she still has ways to go. It is hard to argue, that being atleast kind of or apparently stable, is not a step forward. It does not explicitly say, that she did exactly what Wit wanted her to do.

Uhhh..I was not aware of this particular WoB. Anyone got a quick link to it?

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'll PM you later...

 

Actually, could you pm me too if you have time?

The thing is, I usually have a decent nose for romantic storylines - of course, I don't always ship canon! But when I don't I usually either know it from the start, or at the end everybody is equally shocked (usually due to some sloppy last-minute trope avoidance). 

This time I feel like I was sailing for a moment on this super high-end ship with storage full of hints and evidence... and suddenly it turns out that we're crashed into the rocks on good weather, most of the passengers are evacuating happily to the ferry passing by at full speed, the cargo is sinking and nobody knows if we took any emergency boats. It's just so confusing. Like my brain started working on some alien frequencies (fortunately shared by the lovely group here) and I never even noticed.

@DeployParachute You put in more detailed and clearer words something I was aiming at back in our old thread, thank you. This idea is so dramatic, compelling and heartbreaking... Maybe I'm a bit of a book masochist, but I desperately want to read it and cry my eyes out. And I am so worried, that there is such a potential development gem in this story and if it's not going to happen, it'll be way, way worse than any ship sinking. So MUCH potential.

4 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'll also cop to being a shameless Shalladin shipper. There's too much foreshadowing that needs to be discarded now, and it makes me think less of Brandon as a writer. If it was always meant to be Shadolin, then it was done sloppily, and if he changed his mind while writing OB, it was still done sloppily. When I'm used to tight, well foreshadowed endings where all the clues are there. A causal betrothal isn't a clue, it's a prop. Shallan starting out on the Wind's Pleasure is a clue. And so forth. I'm with @PhineasGage in that I'm feeling misled and I'm not pleased about it.

3

If I still have to be bitter (I should get a life, but for now I only have exams), I'm glad I'm not alone. I blame my lack of knowledge of other Sanderson's books at that time, but when I saw an arranged relationship not supported by any love-hate kind of trope but just... meh, I only saw it as a temporary excuse for keeping Shallan around other main characters for the time being... it didn't even scream to me "not gonna happen", just... nothing.

3 hours ago, Harbour said:

I still shake my head wondering what exactly convinced Shalladin supporters betas. Its not that OB was full of hints on Shalladin being bad ship, neither it has alot of hints on Shadolin being the solid right design.

Some answers shocked me by how indignant they sounded. "Thanks god its over like that", "Its an oath, dont they dare to break it", "Kaladin is terrible for Shallan", "Kaladin always was just a friend for Shallan", "Adolin is so good because he picked the real Shallan".

Like, really? I wont ask how did they read the book. It just worry me that they might influence Brandon's story. I still secretly hope he rubbed his hands looking at misled betas, because that clearly was his intent to misled the readers who didnt read carefully.

11

Another post I can't upvote enough.

[Guest]

Just now, DeployParachute said:

Uhhh..I was not aware of this particular WoB. Anyone got a quick link to it?

In the hidden section, third question.

[kari-no-sugata]

Regarding Shallan's potential final Truth/Ideal...

Narratively, we need to know what happened in Shallan's early childhood. Or rather, there's still clearly plenty of questions left there. OB gave us a few more clues but to a large degree we're just as ignorant as ever. There's also various questions about Helaran still too. Shallan seems to know more than what has currently come up in the text but not much more. It's unlikely that we'll find out more unless it becomes relevant to the plot and the most obvious way to achieve that is by making something deep in her past relevant to her Final Ideal.

We also have this from WoR:

Quote

‘I know . . . little of humans,’ Pattern said. ‘They break. Their minds break. You did not break. Only cracked.’

She continued her washing.

‘It is the lies that save you,’ Pattern said. ‘The lies that drew me.’

So the implication here (though other interpretations are possible) is that Shallan's mind would already have broken before she met Pattern, except that "lies" (at least how Cryptics consider lies) saved her. Since Shallan first started doing Lightweaving years before she killed her mother, she was probably 8 at most at this time. I think it's likely that these "lies" relate to her Final Ideal.

We also have this from tWoK:

Quote

That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

This is probably one of the other Cryptics around Shallan at the time. I'm guessing they form a temporary bond (probably building on top of Shallan's existing bond to Pattern). Based on this I think for a truth to be a Truth (an Ideal) it needs to be strong enough and deeply hidden enough.

From the point at which Shallan bonded Pattern, I suspect that only "old" Truths will work for advancement. Imagine if you could use "new" Truths - that would mean you could deliberately delude yourself then use that as a means for progression. In other words, it would be possible to "cheat". When Shallan killed her mother, I'm pretty sure that this new lie caused her to go backwards in her progression as a Radiant - before as a child she could use sound, but during WoR she couldn't, but she can in OB after having advanced. So I think she was at the 4th Ideal before she killed her mother, then dropped to the 3rd Ideal for 6 years and returned to the 4th Ideal at the end of WoR.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

From the point at which Shallan bonded Pattern, I suspect that only "old" Truths will work for advancement. Imagine if you could use "new" Truths - that would mean you could deliberately delude yourself then use that as a means for progression. In other words, it would be possible to "cheat". When Shallan killed her mother, I'm pretty sure that this new lie caused her to go backwards in her progression as a Radiant - before as a child she could use sound, but during WoR she couldn't, but she can in OB after having advanced. So I think she was at the 4th Ideal before she killed her mother, then dropped to the 3rd Ideal for 6 years and returned to the 4th Ideal at the end of WoR.

But, Shallan killed her father after her bond with Pattern was in this semi-broken state or whatever it was. Wouldn't that also constitute it to be a "new" Truth?

Besides, it is extremely hard to deliberately delude yourself. You always have to be reminded, if you're lying to yourself. That self-delusion almost always happens unconsciously.

You make a good argument though and I don't want to argue it's plausibilty.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

3 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Narratively, we need to know what happened in Shallan's early childhood. Or rather, there's still clearly plenty of questions left there. OB gave us a few more clues but to a large degree we're just as ignorant as ever. There's also various questions about Helaran still too. Shallan seems to know more than what has currently come up in the text but not much more. It's unlikely that we'll find out more unless it becomes relevant to the plot and the most obvious way to achieve that is by making something deep in her past relevant to her Final Ideal.

....

From the point at which Shallan bonded Pattern, I suspect that only "old" Truths will work for advancement. Imagine if you could use "new" Truths - that would mean you could deliberately delude yourself then use that as a means for progression. In other words, it would be possible to "cheat". When Shallan killed her mother, I'm pretty sure that this new lie caused her to go backwards in her progression as a Radiant - before as a child she could use sound, but during WoR she couldn't, but she can in OB after having advanced. So I think she was at the 4th Ideal before she killed her mother, then dropped to the 3rd Ideal for 6 years and returned to the 4th Ideal at the end of WoR.

I agree with all this, including that there is something else big from childhood hanging out there (which, sadly (for the character, not for the narrative), I think will likely have to do with abuse of some kind.)  One of the things I wonder is when you say/acknowledge a truth, is that enough to "advance" or do you actually have to "accept" that truth?  I would argue that Shallan hasn't truly accepted the fact she killed her mother, both because we repeatedly see her pushing it down (and fracturing her personality in part to push that truth down and still be able to use her blade) and also because we don't have a big moment of "power up".  I know not all Radiant orders work the same, but I would think they'd get something from moving up a level.  I'm partway through WoK reread now, and I'm going to pay close attention to what powers Shallan gets and when throughout the book, because I suspect she does seem to get something from each truth ("I am terrified", can soulcast and I believe the first time we see her using stormlight?; and "I am a murderer/I killed my father", Pattern appears shortly after that; maybe?)  Someone in some thread posted hints that maybe she has her shardplate, but that she can't manifest it yet.  If this is true, this would support my theory that she hasn't internalized her truth about killing her mother, which is why she can't access that "power up".

Related question, do we KNOW she can use her shardblade from the time period after she kills her mother until she says her "murderer/killed father" truth?  Guessing we do, but I don't recall it.

Just as an aside, I'm operating on the assumption she has accepted her "terrified" and "murderer/father" truths since she has told others and isn't struggling with them in her viewpoints.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Related question, do we KNOW she can use her shardblade from the time period after she kills her mother until she says her "murderer/killed father" truth?  Guessing we do, but I don't recall it.

We do have confirmation, that some Orders get their blade at different points in their progression. I could be that Lightweavers get them directly at their first Truth (Second Ideal). She spoke "I'm terrified" before she summoned Pattern the first time (in the book). Of that I am sure. In hindsight, I also think, that she spoke her second Truth, too.

Quote

Questioner

Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

In most orders, yes.

Questioner

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, um...you will find out more.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I agree with all this, including that there is something else big from childhood hanging out there (which, sadly (for the character, not for the narrative), I think will likely have to do with abuse of some kind.)  One of the things I wonder is when you say/acknowledge a truth, is that enough to "advance" or do you actually have to "accept" that truth?  I would argue that Shallan hasn't truly accepted the fact she killed her mother, both because we repeatedly see her pushing it down (and fracturing her personality in part to push that truth down and still be able to use her blade) and also because we don't have a big moment of "power up".  I know not all Radiant orders work the same, but I would think they'd get something from moving up a level.  I'm partway through WoK reread now, and I'm going to pay close attention to what powers Shallan gets and when throughout the book, because I suspect she does seem to get something from each truth ("I am terrified", can soulcast and I believe the first time we see her using stormlight?; and "I am a murderer/I killed my father", Pattern appears shortly after that; maybe?)  Someone in some thread posted hints that maybe she has her shardplate, but that she can't manifest it yet.  If this is true, this would support my theory that she hasn't internalized her truth about killing her mother, which is why she can't access that "power up".

Related question, do we KNOW she can use her shardblade from the time period after she kills her mother until she says her "murderer/killed father" truth?  Guessing we do, but I don't recall it.

Just as an aside, I'm operating on the assumption she has accepted her "terrified" and "murderer/father" truths since she has told others and isn't struggling with them in her viewpoints.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86-gollanczfest-london/#e5675

 

Quote

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

If I hadn't have had questions about OB for Brandon, I would probably have asked him some questions about this and some related topics. As I said previously, I think when Shallan killed her mother she regressed as a Radiant from the 4th Ideal to the 3rd Ideal. That was enough for her to keep her Shardblade. I think if she had gone lower she probably wouldn't have been able to keep the Shardblade and it might have killed Pattern for real. So I think she had to be 3rd Ideal all the time until the end of WoR. The first time we find out that speaking Truths locks that memory in and means it can't be ignored is in OB. Those "truths" she spoke in tWoK are different and not locked into her. Those were to different Cryptics and not enough to advance her as a Radiant... but were enough to help restore her bond to Pattern.

That's how I see it at least, but there's other possibilities.

With regards to power ups with advancement, Lift didn't get anything visible and Szeth got something minor. It seems that the Windrunners are unusually flashy for some reason. I suspect that the Lightweavers don't get anything special.

[DeployParachute]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

In the hidden section, third question.

Ah...well.  I have nothing then.  Perhaps a good follow up question to the one about how Adolin is able to tell which persona is active is: is the Shallan persona that Adolin knows still a mask that she wears specifically for him, as she indicated to herself in the scene where she had just exited the storm shelter in Kholinar...

Though all these WoB trickling in are making it increasingly difficult to not accept that, despite all the text to the contrary, most of what we saw about this resolution in OB should be taken at face value. Shallan is on the road to recovery, and with just a little bit of helpful love and support from her man,  she's gonna get there.

Geez, I seem to be just putting my stages of grief on repeat. Happens Everytime I open up OB again to read.  I'll have "accepted" that there really isn't anything more complex to this plot, it really is just as simple as it was. Then I'll hit a nugget of writing and foreshadowing and get reset right back to theorizing. Gotta stop doing this to myself.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

 

From the point at which Shallan bonded Pattern, I suspect that only "old" Truths will work for advancement. Imagine if you could use "new" Truths - that would mean you could deliberately delude yourself then use that as a means for progression. In other words, it would be possible to "cheat".

Very sound logic, and textual evidence to support some of it. I don't have much of a rebuttal except to say that I'm starting to think that while the whole speak truths to advance for lightweavers is an interesting and cool idea, it makes no sense in the context about how people actually grow and work in real life. People are constantly discovering new truths about themselves, and old truths are changing. How can the scope of truths be boiled down to a select few that determines advancements in control of radiant power.  I guess "only past truths count" is as good a mechanism as any, but it seems to me to be rather flat, and opposed to how people are always changing. Finding specific oaths for power ups is more accommodating with how we as humans change over the course of our lives. Finding truths...not so much.

Edited November 29, 2017 by DeployParachute

[Dreamstorm]

14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to power ups with advancement, Lift didn't get anything visible and Szeth got something minor. It seems that the Windrunners are unusually flashy for some reason. I suspect that the Lightweavers don't get anything special.

Thanks! So she always has blade. I feel like we have a LOT more to learn about Lightweavers and their truths and progression... I suppose that's true about everyone but Windrunners and Skybreakers, though, but since we've had so much time with a Lightweaver it feels odd! How does Shallan get her shardplate then if she doesn't power up? She better get her shardplate! And well, I would love a crazy power moment from her too!

[DeployParachute]

13 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

The first time we find out that speaking Truths locks that memory in and means it can't be ignored is in OB. Those "truths" she spoke in tWoK are different and not locked into her.

So are truths, or at least nahel bond worthy truths, only truthful memories, or truthful conclusions about one's own nature, or both? 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If I hadn't have had questions about OB for Brandon, I would probably have asked him some questions about this and some related topics. As I said previously, I think when Shallan killed her mother she regressed as a Radiant from the 4th Ideal to the 3rd Ideal. That was enough for her to keep her Shardblade. I think if she had gone lower she probably wouldn't have been able to keep the Shardblade and it might have killed Pattern for real. So I think she had to be 3rd Ideal all the time until the end of WoR. The first time we find out that speaking Truths locks that memory in and means it can't be ignored is in OB. Those "truths" she spoke in tWoK are different and not locked into her. Those were to different Cryptics and not enough to advance her as a Radiant... but were enough to help restore her bond to Pattern.

First of all, I don't want to say, that your logic is flawed, but rather just think of different possibilities.

Let us look at Kaladin's progression

Nahel bond forms: Basic Stormlight perks

First Ideal: Granted Adhesion Surge

Second Ideal: Granted Gravitation Surge

Third Ideal: Granted the ability to summon Syl as a Shardweapon

Fourth Ideal: Probably Plate

Fifth Ideal: ??? (also probably very hard to attain)

Now we know that Orders have different points at which they get their Shardweapon... It is a shame, that we don't have a second Lightweaver to compare the progression to so we only can speculate.

Possible progression for Lightweavers, as in Shallan atm:

Nahel bond forms: Basic Stormlight perks

First Ideal: Granted Illumination Surge

Second Ideal / First Truth: Granted Transformation Surge and granted the ability to summon Pattern as a Shardweapon

Third Ideal / Second Truth: No huge upgrade

Fourth Ideal / Third Truth: Probably Plate (I like the idea, that she can't manifest it, because she hasn't accepted her spoken Truth yet.)

Fifth Ideal / Fourth Truth: ??? (also probably very hard to attain)

It might seem strange, that there'll be steps where nothing new is "learned", but Surgebinders also get more efficient and can hold more Stormlight with each Ideal they speak, so you'll always have some progression. I wouldn't see any problem with Lightweavers getting their Shardweapon with their Transformation Surge.

Regarding the thing with the spoken Truth being "locked" in, I think that is just the nature of realizing repressed memories. After you've seen certain "triggers" that let the memory reemerge, you can't just forget it anymore. It is like, when you first notice something (like a lopsided painting on the wall), that has always been there, but you haven't seen it until a friend made you aware of it. Now you can't unsee it. So, I think, that is just a phenomenon unique to Shallan, because she had these heavy traumatic events, that triggered the repressed memory. I don't think, that every Lightweaver will have these. "I'm terrified" and "I'm a murderer" weren't repressed memories in the traumatic sense, but just things, that Shallan didn't want to acknowledge, so that is probably why she didn't feel about them like that.

Regarding her life before she was eleven, hm, I might be wrong here, but I think Shallan doesn't have any recollection of her life before that. Not just selective, but full-on retrograde psychogenic amnesia.

[insert_anagram_here]

We find Shallan an interesting character because she has that innate ability to suppress bad memories and feelings about herself and her reality. Pattern is attracted to her for the same exact reason. Now what complicates her even more is that she is a KR, so instead of finding balance in suppression (like us twisted mortals) she needs to search and find and accept the true truth. If we want our KR's A-team to defeat the Last Desolation, they have to become not as powerful as the Heralds, but even surpass them. 

edit: These facts prove that Shallan's self-growth is far far from over, this growth is one of the most interesting character developments, and it is not over yet. 

 

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

From the point at which Shallan bonded Pattern, I suspect that only "old" Truths will work for advancement. Imagine if you could use "new" Truths - that would mean you could deliberately delude yourself then use that as a means for progression. In other words, it would be possible to "cheat".

"deliberately delude yourself" is a paradox. If it's deliberate you aren't really deluding yourself, you are pretending. If you are deluding yourself, it's not deliberate.

 

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think when Shallan killed her mother she regressed as a Radiant from the 4th Ideal to the 3rd Ideal.

I do not understand this obsession with finding 2nd, 3rd, 4th Ideal in Lightweavers. Lightweavers do not have Ideals, only one Ideal, the 1st. They might gain and lose abilities based on which truths they accept and how powerful those truths are, relevant to their self-awareness. It doesn't have to be in a specific order 1-2-3. It's like a huge checklist of things with different weight in value, where you can regress in some of those truths but not in others. For example, the fact that she used Pattern in killing her parents, made her regress into not being able to use Pattern. That specific truth and that specific power are interconnected.

 

10 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

On 11/28/2017 at 11:04 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

My third question was whether Wit would approve of how Shallan is at the end. The answer was that Wit would consider her to have made a step forwards, but still has a ways to go.

Though all these WoB trickling in are making it increasingly difficult to not accept that, despite all the text to the contrary, most of what we saw about this resolution in OB should be taken at face value. Shallan is on the road to recovery, and with just a little bit of helpful love and support from her man,  she's gonna get there.

The thing is, just because Wit sees Shallan being on the road to recovery, that doesn't mean he is fully aware of what the real truth of her is. Only she can know the real truths about herself (and/or Pattern). 'On the road to recovery' could potentially mean that she has started searching for the truth (the first step) and not necessarily making progress on her self awareness. He cannot know if marriage is the right thing for her, but she has at least started moving.

 

 

10 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Geez, I seem to be just putting my stages of grief on repeat. Happens Everytime I open up OB again to read.  I'll have "accepted" that there really isn't anything more complex to this plot, it really is just as simple as it was. Then I'll hit a nugget of writing and foreshadowing and get reset right back to theorizing. Gotta stop doing this to myself.

I know exactly what you mean, I will say that I have barely been functioning in real life this last week and my posts keep contradicting one another because I've been going through a "denial" to/from "false hope" cycle over and over in my mind. I know that doesn't sound like evidence that I am sane and that you should trust my judgement, but last night I came to the conclusion that even if I'm crazy, that's okay. I prefer to be on this side of the argument. 

So, yes, I've finally requested passage on the S.S. but in the cargo area, on the third level, in a box, where people are destined to die puking their guts out before even the ship manages to sink in the notorious Sandermuda triangle. I've been told that they don't have boxes left for people destined to die with the ship - they ran out when they realized it was going to be all of us. So maybe instead of being in a box, could I be the box? Everything has a spren after all.

Edited November 30, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
typo