[OB] Question about the Heralds

[Kinnsayyy]

Since the KR are not originally from Roshar, and the KR were created to emulate the Heralds, did the Heralds come with them whenever they traveled to Roshar? Also, do we have any idea where they all originally came from? 

[RShara]

Humans aren't originally from Roshar, but by the time the KR formed, humans had probably been on the planet for some time.  The Heralds may or may not be Roshar natives.

It's commonly believed that humans came from Braize, aka Damnation, although they may have come from Ashyn instead.

[Calderis]

This book showed us that the Oathpact was made as a response to the desolations. 

As far as I can tell the Heralds are as native to Roshar as a human can be. 

[teknopathetic]

And there are many waves of humanity as well. Shinovar appears to be the first reservation, but the Ire (whose people know they are refugees) is likely another reservation of a different heritage of humans (they are placed north-east of Shinovar in an isolated nook). Then we have the Theylans, which might also be another reservation population that was placed in the southern nook and away from the brutality of the high storms as well.  Or are the Theylans more related to Voidbringers, as they still worship Odium's passions?

After that we have the Amians which appear to inhabit a weird island even more isolated from the rest, and appear to be an entirely new race (two races) that was/were created after a god interceded with one of the sentient populations.

We can't even say if the Alethi are related to the Shin, or if the Shin are yet another breed of human that now inhabits the old void-reservation.  I have no idea if 10,000 years is enough time for such a radical change in phenotype from east to west human populations to be apparent, though desolations/cultivation could have enhanced the phenotypical distinctiveness between the two groups. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic

[RShara]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This book showed us that the Oathpact was made as a response to the desolations. 

As far as I can tell the Heralds are as native to Roshar as a human can be. 

I think the Oathpact caused the Desolations.  A Desolation starts when a Herald breaks, and agrees to allow the Fused souls back to Roshar.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think the Oathpact caused the Desolations.  A Desolation starts when a Herald breaks, and agrees to allow the Fused souls back to Roshar.

Yes that's the way the desolation cycle works. But that doesn't seem to be the way it started. 

Humans fled from their destroyed world, and came to live as refugees on Roshar, isolated in Shinovar. 

From there we don't know a time frame, but eventually people expanded out, the listeners embraced Odium in response and the war started. 

I'll need to find the passage, but it appears it was at this point that the Oathpact was made. To cause a way to hold of the dead singers from simply returning as they are doing now. 

I don't think that the Heralds existed until after that started, and created the desolation cycle. 

A month ago I would have said the exact opposite. 

[DiamondMind]

Full timeline as I understand it:

Humans fled from their destroyed world, and came to live as refugees on Roshar, isolated in Shinovar. 

From there we don't know a time frame, but eventually people expanded out, the singers embraced Odium in response and the war started. 

Singers start coming back as the Fused, probably their leaders and generals etc.

People who would become the Heralds come to Honor and propose the Oathpact as a way of sealing the Fused on Braize: They would trapped with them, keeping the seal strong. But the Fused begin torturing the Heralds on Braize once they catch at least one.

After hundreds of years the first Herald breaks and allows the Fused to return to Roshar in order to stop the torture. Critically, Honor did not foresee this happening, it was not part of the original plan.

Heralds and Fused both return to Roshar and a Desolation begins.

Desolation ends. Unclear as to why. Both Fused and Heralds return to Braize. 

Heralds are chased, captured, and tortured on Braize until one breaks.

Last 3 steps repeat as the time Heralds breaking shrinks. Eventually less than one year passes in between and humanity's progress has been destroyed.

Last Desolation and only Taln returns to Braize, lasting 4500 years before breaking.

 

 

[Kinnsayyy]

I thought the KR were created to emulate the abilities of the Heralds though? If that was the case then the Heralds have to have been around before the KR, and since we know KR destroyed their home world then they had to have existed before coming to Roshar. Am I missing something? 

Quote

The first Surgebinders came to be as a result of spren trying to imitate what Honorhad given his Heralds

The coppermind says they were created to copy what Honor gave the Heralds. Okay this really is not adding up. If Honor didn't give them the power of the surges until they reached Roshar, how did they managed to destroy their world? 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Kinnsayyy

[notsawerd]

Something doesn't add up with the timeline with how its been presented.  We aren't told the whole story in Oathbringer.  We learn a part of one side from the translated Singer's dawnchant document.  

[+Harrycrapper]

The Knights Radiants didn't destroy whatever planet the humans came from. Humans in general from what I can tell destroyed it with "powers of spren and surges." I don't really have an idea of how or why but I believe it was more related to Odium than Roshar.

[Jace21]

The confusion seems to stem from the idea that KR destroyed their previous world which is not the case, nor stated in-book anywhere I can find. 

Surgebinders may have destroyed their previous world with "surges and spren" (though I have my doubts), but the KR as orders were not created until after the heralds were created and the cycle of desolations began. 

My doubt comes from the fact that I imagine beings native to Roshar would refer to any visible manifestation of investiture as "surgebinding" due to that being the familiar term, even if it was something else.

[Erklitt]

I think @Harrycrapper is on the right track.

Here's my theory about this:

Humans destroyed their world through voidbinding.  After all, they came with Odium. Stormlight seems to be native to Roshar, and while we don't know exactly where voidlight comes from, it's almost certainly somehow connected to Odium.

Originally, the listeners knew the forms, but no surgebinding.

Maybe humans had stopped using voidbinding after the destruction of their old world, at least they don't seem to use it now. But still the coming of humans and Odium (and probably voidspren) brought the possibility of voidbinding to Roshar. And then some of the listeners turned to Odium, becoming very powerful, aka 'gods', and enslaved the listeners. It was the human invasion that made this possible, so humans were originally termed 'voidbringers'. (And maybe they DID use the powers?)

This led to the first war. Honor wanted to save his world and his peoples (both species), created the heralds and initiated the oathpact. And since in desolations the listener 'gods' were the destructive force, the term 'voidbringer' was transferred to them.

Then, sometime later, the Rosharan spren discovered the Nahel bond by imitating what honor did through the honorblades.

They did / do it for listeners too, but prefer humans because emotions are more readily had there.

The Fused seem to use both surgebinding and voidbinding. That probably makes them even more powerful than the original listener gods, who could only have used voidbinding. Maybe they have two spren. Maybe that's what makes them immortal.

What do you think of this theory?

[FatherV]

My recollection from various threads and my own reading is that the dawnshards had a role in the destruction of the original world.  Certainly, Tanavast is reported to have made such a connection towards the end. 

[Erklitt]

16 minutes ago, FatherV said:

My recollection from various threads and my own reading is that the dawnshards had a role in the destruction of the original world.  Certainly, Tanavast is reported to have made such a connection towards the end. 

First of all: welcome to the shard! Have an upvote.

You're probably right. I've only had time for one reading of OB so far, sometimes in a tired state, and not much time for the forums either lately. I have certainly forgotten many important hints. Yes, there was something called dawnshards, but I remeber no particulars...

But do you see a contradiction to my theory in that? Couldn't dawnshards and voidbinding both play a role?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Erklitt
Grammer correction

[Watchcry]

On 11/25/2017 at 5:42 PM, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Yes that's the way the desolation cycle works. But that doesn't seem to be the way it started. 

Humans fled from their destroyed world, and came to live as refugees on Roshar, isolated in Shinovar. 

From there we don't know a time frame, but eventually people expanded out, the listeners embraced Odium in response and the war started. 

I'll need to find the passage, but it appears it was at this point that the Oathpact was made. To cause a way to hold of the dead singers from simply returning as they are doing now. 

I don't think that the Heralds existed until after that started, and created the desolation cycle. 

A month ago I would have said the exact opposite. 

My whole problem with Brandon's explanation is if humans didn't have powers yet how did they destroy their old world. If they had voidbinding powers, how did they free themselves from Odium?

[Erklitt]

6 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

My whole problem with Brandon's explanation is if humans didn't have powers yet how did they destroy their old world. If they had voidbinding powers, how did they free themselves from Odium?

Maybe that's part of the difference between humans and listeners: Odium can force and enslave listeners, maybe he doesn't have the same power over humans. Anyway, he accompanied the humans to Roshar, so they weren't completely free of him, whether they used voidbinding or not.

Edit: That would be an excellent reason for Odium to concentrate on influencing the listeners rather than the humans directly to achieve his ends.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Erklitt
Additional thought

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

I think @Harrycrapper is on the right track.

Here's my theory about this:

Humans destroyed their world through voidbinding.  After all, they came with Odium. Stormlight seems to be native to Roshar, and while we don't know exactly where voidlight comes from, it's almost certainly somehow connected to Odium.

Originally, the listeners knew the forms, but no surgebinding.

Maybe humans had stopped using voidbinding after the destruction of their old world, at least they don't seem to use it now. But still the coming of humans and Odium (and probably voidspren) brought the possibility of voidbinding to Roshar. And then some of the listeners turned to Odium, becoming very powerful, aka 'gods', and enslaved the listeners. It was the human invasion that made this possible, so humans were originally termed 'voidbringers'. (And maybe they DID use the powers?)

This led to the first war. Honor wanted to save his world and his peoples (both species), created the heralds and initiated the oathpact. And since in desolations the listener 'gods' were the destructive force, the term 'voidbringer' was transferred to them.

Then, sometime later, the Rosharan spren discovered the Nahel bond by imitating what honor did through the honorblades.

They did / do it for listeners too, but prefer humans because emotions are more readily had there.

The Fused seem to use both surgebinding and voidbinding. That probably makes them even more powerful than the original listener gods, who could only have used voidbinding. Maybe they have two spren. Maybe that's what makes them immortal.

What do you think of this theory?

There is certainly more than we have been told. Have humans always been able to bond a voidspren? 

Was Honor really the original Listener God? They are of Cultivation and Odium, but they are not of Honor. 

Did the fight between C&H and Odium begin on Ashyn/Braize? Then did all 3 come over from Ashyn/Braize? 

Why did humans switch so easily to Honor? 

There are  far too many questions, IMHO. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[Calderis]

30 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

My whole problem with Brandon's explanation is if humans didn't have powers yet how did they destroy their old world. If they had voidbinding powers, how did they free themselves from Odium?

Different world implies different powers. 

This is the Cosmere after all. 

[StormingTexan]

3 hours ago, Jace21 said:

My doubt comes from the fact that I imagine beings native to Roshar would refer to any visible manifestation of investiture as "surgebinding" due to that being the familiar term, even if it was something else.

I agree with this. Just like they would call Nightblood a spren the listeners would more than likely call use of any magic surgebinding. So I think we shouldn't get too hung up on the term in the literal sense. 

Speaking of the Oathpact now that we know why the Last Desolation was held off for 4500 years it sure does seem convenient that when it was abandoned all the Heralds lived except Taln. 

[BeskarKomrk]

59 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I agree with this. Just like they would call Nightblood a spren the listeners would more than likely call use of any magic surgebinding. So I think we shouldn't get too hung up on the term in the literal sense. 

Speaking of the Oathpact now that we know why the Last Desolation was held off for 4500 years it sure does seem convenient that when it was abandoned all the Heralds lived except Taln. 

That's why they chose to abandon it then. If somebody else had died, they may have forced themselves to return to Braize for another round of torture. But because the opportunity presented itself, they took it.