(OB) What is Mraizes Game?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Mraize had Ash. He could have used her for whatever nefarious purpose, and yet he let her go find Taln. What is the Ghostbloods up to? Why release her?

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Well I think what he really wants is to have her on his side, without telling her about taln she wouldn't have given a damnation about him and without letting her go and see him she wouldn't trust him; as things stand she owes him 

[kari-no-sugata]

Really hard to tell what Mraize is up to.

Random thought: We didn't see Ash make any attempt to destroy the drawings of herself. Is that because she was distracted by something more important or because true depictions don't bother her.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I suspect the Heralds, even without Honorblades are not so easy to contain against their will (except for Shards). But I still have no clue what he is up to. What I find curious is that he knew Ash would care about Taln. Its been 4500 years since the Heralds were around, how do they have information so reliable?

[Farnsworth]

 

4 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Really hard to tell what Mraize is up to.

Random thought: We didn't see Ash make any attempt to destroy the drawings of herself. Is that because she was distracted by something more important or because true depictions don't bother her.

I thinks it’s the later. We saw Szeth become mostly sane, and Taln become kind of stable, so maybe Shallash is improving slowly.

 

In regards to Mraize, do you think he might be a member of the Ire? Just a weird thought.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Farnsworth

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

We don't have too much solid information. Brandon hasn't outright said it in WoB, and there's not a whole lot on-screen either. Jasnah seems to think they'll target Radiants as they approach their final ideals. 

Quote

"The Ghostbloods will almost certainly start targeting you, now that you’ve begun progressing toward your final Ideals.”

33. A lecture

Mraize, however, indicates that Jasnah was only targeted after she attacked them.

Quote

“An enemy combatant,” Mraize said. “Oh, don’t look at me like that. You know full well what that woman was capable of, and what she got herself into by attacking us."

22. The darkness Within

They are obviously trying to gain power from the desolations in some way by the fact they want to recruit or capture Sja-Anat.

Quote

You will find this Unmade, and you will persuade it to serve the Ghostbloods. Barring that, you will capture it and deliver it to us.

122 A Debt Repaid

I think it's significant they seem to be completely opposed to the son's of honor. (Gavilar assumes Thaidakar had him assassinated and Iyatil targets Amaram.)

 

Most curious to me however, was this WoB:

Quote

ccstat

If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?

Brandon Sanderson

He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year.

So the Kelsier who wanted to kill the Lord Ruler would join, and most likely end up leading the Ghostbloods. I don't know what to infer from this, but it is significant.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I think the Ghostbloods are not a good group, but they will want the same end as our heroes - to stop Odium. They are Worldhoppers mostly, as far as we have seen, and will probably want to profit from what is happening on Roshar but to do that they need the board to be intact, and so far they have always acted against Odium if not actually in favour of anyone else

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I think the game that Mraize is playing with Ash is the same one that he's playing with Shallan. It's a very good method of recruitment and it's effective even if the person being recruited knows what he's doing. It's all about knowledge and training recruits to perform for it. I mean, it's practically Pavlovian, like training a dog. The "treat" is information the target wants and you slowly ask them to do harder and harder things to keep getting more info.

Shallan started with getting a freebie: getting her brothers rescued. Next, Mraize asked her to do something that she was already doing anyway (and wouldn't be willing to stop just to thwart him), driving the Unmade out of Urithiru. For this, she got info about Helaran. If I've guessed correct, the tasks will ramp up from there, from things that Shallan wouldn't have an issue doing (except that it would help the Ghostbloods) but also wouldn't normally do without prompting. And then if she does those, start giving her tasks she might be opposed to doing under normal circumstances and see if she'll complete those. 

All throughout, Mraize keeps promising extremely good information, and (the important part) delivering on this. So when he tells her he can get her info on something new that she really wants to hear, she'll know it's legit... and all she has to do is whatever he says. 

It all starts with that freebie though. Like a drug dealer giving out a sample to get you hoooked, Mraize gives people one thing they truly desire so that they know he can deliver on his promises in the future. Shallan's brothers. Ash's information about Taln. I think we'll see Mraize reach out to Ash again and this time ask something of her.

Mraize having not only a Radiant under his control with Shallan, but also managing to get a Herald at his beck and call? Terrifying.

That's my guess for Mraize's plans at least. What makes him really scary is that the Ghostbloods apparently actually have the resources and intel to pull off these incredible bribes. If he knows half as much about Ash as he knows about Shallan... well. We're in for a time.

[Hiadin Haloun he/him]

It is my thoughts that mraize is in direct opposition to odium.  Whatever else he does, does not matter.  I think Jasnah had some bad info with the trying to kill you thing, as that is what the skybreakers are doing.  I have a couple of theories regarding Jasnah but they aren't fully formed yet. One though is that the ghostbloods tried to stop an assassination of Jasnah by the skybreakers, and she blamed the ghostbloods instead.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

14 minutes ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

One though is that the ghostbloods tried to stop an assassination of Jasnah by the skybreakers, and she blamed the ghostbloods instead.

Personally I think she found out about an assassination attempt on Gavilar and intervened... enthusiastically. It has the most on-screen evidence to support it.

(Welcome to the forums )

Edited November 24, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Hiadin Haloun he/him]

19 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Personally I think she found out about an assassination attempt on Gavilar and intervened... enthusiastically. It has the most on-screen evidence to support it.

(Welcome to the forums )

That is another likely option, but I feel it lacks an explanation for her thoughts that they will kill shallan as she swears her oaths.

[Mahoka]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Mraize had Ash. He could have used her for whatever nefarious purpose, and yet he let her go find Taln. What is the Ghostbloods up to? Why release her?

COULD they keep her? We don't know enough about the heralds to know how dangerous they could be. I don't think the honorblades are all there is to them. Remember Taln snatching darts from the air. And Shalash's own servants in her interlude sure seem to think she can be scary.

I am pretty sure Mraize just wanted to trade information. It is likely from her he learned of Sja-Anat. She most likely captured Re-Shephir. He wanted info and promised to tell her where Taln was in exchange.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

23 minutes ago, Mahoka said:

I am pretty sure Mraize just wanted to trade information. It is likely from her he learned of Sja-Anat.

I'm not so sure about this part. Brandon has said there are hints as to what his Aviar's ability is, and while I haven't done too much looking into this yet, there are two separate instances where he has information on the unmade: Re-Shephir in Urithuru and Sja-Anat wanting to turn. I'm leaning towards the Aviar's ability being connected to his ability to gather information about the unmade.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I doubt that the Ghostbloods have been trying to save Jasnah, or that they are in total opposition to Odium. Remember what Mraize said about using the forces of the Desolation to gain power? I doubt he will pull a Taravangian and join the dark side, but he is not on the Radiants side.

[emailanimal he/him]

4 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

Mraize having not only a Radiant under his control with Shallan, but also managing to get a Herald at his beck and call? Terrifying.

This depends on what Ghostbloods really want. Despite them being after my favorite character in the series, of all the secret societies on Roshar, they, thus far, have been the most effective.  Given the WoB about Kelsier and the Ghostbloods, I have a feeling that they are a branch of an organization that essentially opposes the 17th Shard (the latter is all about observation and non-involvement, Ghostbloods appear to be all about leveraging things).

One thing that is somewhat attractive about them is that Mraize thus far has been pretty straightforward in his dealings. But I agree with you absolutely about your reading of his MO.

 

[sylian]

Do we know who is Mraize's babsk? I saw it mentioned, but I couldn't figure it out. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

57 minutes ago, sylian said:

Do we know who is Mraize's babsk? I saw it mentioned, but I couldn't figure it out. 

It is Iyatil. It is more or less stated in WoR. 

One thing I have observed regarding Mraize is that he is kind of honest, and makes good on his promises, this far. He hasn't tricked Shallan once, and gave her both her brothers and the Skybreaker information. He gave Ash her info too. It would be fun in a way, if Mraize ended up being the most honorable of our human antagonists (King T, Amaram, Sadeas).

[sylian]

Thank you! It looks like I started getting too confused. Time for a reread maybe

[ScavellTane]

52 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It is Iyatil. It is more or less stated in WoR. 

One thing I have observed regarding Mraize is that he is kind of honest, and makes good on his promises, this far. He hasn't tricked Shallan once, and gave her both her brothers and the Skybreaker information. He gave Ash her info too. It would be fun in a way, if Mraize ended up being the most honorable of our human antagonists (King T, Amaram, Sadeas).

Mraize's talk of Heleran and the Skybreakers doesn't seem right. He is the only one that connects those two points. I think his explanation of Heleran is a lie.

[Aditu she/her]

Hi there

 

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Mraize's talk of Heleran and the Skybreakers doesn't seem right. He is the only one that connects those two points. I think his explanation of Heleran is a lie.

I think I remember Pattern saying that there are lies in that letter...

Edited November 24, 2017 by Aditu
Grammar mistake :(

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Mraize's talk of Heleran and the Skybreakers doesn't seem right. He is the only one that connects those two points. I think his explanation of Heleran is a lie.

There are some hints. He talks specifically of "his father's crimes" which is a weird way of referencing that time your mother was killed by your father unless you're trying to be part of a group obsessed with crime.

Quote

“There are more important things in this world,”Helaran said. “More important even than you and your crimes.”

And then Lin knows Helaran joined a group, even if he doesn't specify.

Quote

Father sat down in a dining chair, face still pale. “How ? A Shardblade. Where?” He glanced suddenly upward. “But no. It’s different. Your new friends? They trust you with this wealth?”

He originally thinks it's Pattern, then recognizes the Blade to be different and assumes his new friends are powerful enough to supply him with shards. Nalan also would be one of the few people I don't have any qualms about just having an unknown shardblade lying around. If anyone was going to know where shards that went unclaimed were, it's the leader of the order that never broke faith.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[KidWayne he/him]

Aluminum foil hat time!

The Ghostbloods are in possession of (or have a relationship with) some form of Abition's sentient investiture (e.g. a spren, a sliver, or a cognitive shadow). This leads them to collect invested objects, hunt their goals with zeal, and oppose Odium. However, like Odium their end game is to be on top when the dust settles (because Ambition is ambitious). This also explains the WoB that says Kelsier would have done exceedingly well in the Ghostbloods.

Edited November 24, 2017 by KidWayne
clarification

[Calthrop he/him]

Ooooh, I've got thoughts about this...

1) I think the biggest new piece of information we've got about their motivations actually comes from a new WoB, namely that Iyatil was once a member of the 17th Shard.

2) What we've learned about the 17th Shard, as well as some of the letters from the SA books and their general pursuit of Hoid/Wit, lends credence to the idea that they pursue a general course of nonintervention.

3) Given everything we do know about the Ghostbloods, a hands-off policy doesn't seem to fit them.  However, a group created to take an active role in dire events where certain people may have considered the 17th Shard falling short could fit them very well indeed. 

Their desire for Sja-Anat is likely threefold: if she can corrupt radiant spren as she did with Glys, that are not beholden to Odium yet draw some power from him, that would be pretty damnation handy, giving access to surge variants that the Radiants don't have.  Also, you take a weapon away from Odium.  Finally, and this is the big one, you gain leverage over the Radiants with her ability to corrupt Oathgate spren, giving the Ghostbloods the power to shut down Radiant travel if, say, a Radiant's brokenness, conscience, or guilt led him to do something stupid. 

Just saying, Radiants aren't exactly stable, Dalinar included.  Bridge Four even deserted Thaylen City and abandoned the populous to Odium when hit with a crisis of conscience, and no one seemed to mind.  I'd want a way to force them to fight, or at least not abandon whole parts of the world, given how fickle they can be and their poor understanding of their oaths.  And you can be sure Odium has more secrets that he can frame in ways to make them uncertain, and you just can't risk them bailing to think things through, or another Recreance for that matter.  Heck, even Syl thinks Kaladin is on the edge at the end of OB.  Blindly trusting Radiants and their judgement is not going to fly with everyone, and to be honest, I'm not sure it should.  The fact that we as readers are in their heads and know they have good intentions does not change that.

Of course, the Ghostblood's 'evilness' or whatever is an unknown quantity at this point.  That said, by far the worst thing I've actually seen one of their members do at this junction is killing Shallan's driver/parshmen in WoR, and we know Mraize didn't actually order that done.  I also have some suspicions about that particular lait, but they'll have to wait for more information on Cultivation.  Suffice it to say that killing people who could jeopardize a critical location would not be out of character for them, but it also doesn't mean they're out for Cosmere-level genocide, either.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Calthrop

[emailanimal he/him]

7 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Mraize's talk of Heleran and the Skybreakers doesn't seem right. He is the only one that connects those two points. I think his explanation of Heleran is a lie.

Why? It makes perfect sense to me, and it is consistent with everything we know.  Mind you, there are still probably people out there who think Heralan lent his Plate and Blade to someone else and he is in fact out and about... But I never thought it to be a viable theory, so I am happy to take Mraize's explanations at face value.

6 hours ago, Aditu said:

I think I remember Pattern saying that there are lies in that letter...

The letter contained a number of statements that yielded more questions.  My guess is that Mraize's MO is to speak the truth, but no all of it, and omit important things.  However, I think that all actual statements in his letter are true. Some of them may just lack context.

19 minutes ago, Calthrop said:

by far the worst thing I've actually seen one of their members do at this junction is killing Shallan's driver/parshmen in WoR

This misses the whole episode with taking over a ship and attempting to kill Jasnah. I know Mraize explains it away via the "enemy combatant" ruse, but, ahem, no.  

Other than that I actually agree with most of what you are saying. There is a second WoB which says Kelsier would join Ghosbloods. To me this suggests that The Ghostbloods is an organization whose end goals (in cosmeric sense) we may not know - and they very well may not align with the goals of any other players - but whose MO certainly allows them to interfere in local affairs with the purpose of shifting the balance of power.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by emailanimal

[straits]

19 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

I think the Ghostbloods are not a good group, but they will want the same end as our heroes - to stop Odium. They are Worldhoppers mostly, as far as we have seen, and will probably want to profit from what is happening on Roshar but to do that they need the board to be intact, and so far they have always acted against Odium if not actually in favour of anyone else

 

That makes sense. Their passive support and encouragement of Shallan's actions (which mostly aligned with the agenda of Radiants under Dalinar) have so far led to activation of more Oathgates, and more incursions in Shadesmar, ultimately leading up to Dalinar bringing the three Realms closer. I'm not familiar with the mechanics of Worldhopping, but Shallan and her allies facilitated it.