[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Egomere]

by the rusting storms I go way for a day and come back to 5 more pages. I'm not even going to try and reply to everyone far too much. but

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

 

@SLNC you beat me to it. 

Its not the fact that Shallan makes a (open to interpretation here) wrong decision. If that's a decision she makes on her journey as a character then I am strapped in for the ride no matter which way she goes. But she made a decision and then the book ended. ......tumbleweed......

no her arc doesn't need to be tied up In A Bow- there are seven more books to go but it feels like this arc got violently cut in half. 

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

@AubreyWrites I think tumbleweed sounds would have been better so FTFY.

And yes the having to wait three years to actually find out if the storyarc is completed or not is going to torment me. I think that's one of the biggest issues - we got teased and foreshadowed about the relationship and Shallan's character growth and development only to see it fizzle into what feels like BS penchant for arranged marriages are great regardless...

I will say again - it's not that Shallan ends up with Adolin - I'll admit I find his character just too bland (great hair, smile, everyone loves him and never seems to have to deal with consequences of his actions; Sadeas anyone?) rather than with Kaladin, it's just how the choice was made just felt far too rushed, and kind of trite, with some potentially great scenes being ignored completely. (Helaran, flight to oathgate etc...) Which I feel wont ever be addressed now because if Book 4 does have a year time sink then they will never come up (because if they were they would have already happened Now. 

And now Shallan's character feels so 'gah' in how she regressed - and I do think a bit of time with Kaladin to work through her brothers death and more 'pure' Shallan scholar (on the boat talking about the spren) could have helped her come to terms and make a proper accurate choice (tbh I think she still may have picked Adolin) but it would have been at least a choice I could have deemed healthy rather than this terrible, looks like she's going to kill Pattern and shatter herself choice.

Then to have wait 3 years to find out whether that was the genuine (unsatisfying end) or just BS leading into some super mega awesome Shallan healing... (but hopefully self-healing not Adolin healing hands....)

just 'gah' again. oh and rust, storms and I guess I should volunteer to be galley cook / bosun or something on the SS Shallan (far from land)...

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Prelude said:

I’m really tired with getting no sleep over this book and telling you all now I’m not as smart as you all. So thanks again for letting my chime in random not well written thoughts. 

Don't say you're not smart. Just chime in when you feel like it. This forum is public for a reason, we want everyone to participate. That, of course, also goes to people, who don't agree with the majority in the thread here. I love to hear counterpoints, but only if I'm allowed to try to refute them.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

If we are picking ship roles, can I be the captain's Chicken? I feel I have some of the necessary qualifications, and am willing to bring my own feathers.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

If we are picking ship roles, can I be the captain's Chicken? I feel I have some of the necessary qualifications, and am willing to bring my own feathers.

Oh oh oh then I want to be ships boy!! ( or girl - I can totally rock the Bloody Jack vibe)  I'm pretty sure they get all the great gossip and scraps from the galley. 

* referencing the Bloody Jack series by L.A. Meyers (so awesome on audio) 

Edited November 25, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, straits said:

I don't think it would be a writing misstep if there is no consequent payoff for Kaladin sometime in the future. Plenty of individuals in our world have not been "awarded" in such a way despite their good achievements/personality. And Kaladin's growth (and its process) is a reward in itself. Having said that, I'm not a fan of enforcing the Chekhov's Gun concept in every story. Not everything has to be satisfactorily "concluded"; life does not work that way.

As for a main character being reduced to the "bad guy" role in the triangle - this is ostensibly not something Sanderson does in his description through all three PoVs. This is what Shallan does as a mental leap to make the decision easier.

I fall somewhere between you and @PhineasGage. I think there is a big distinction between a fiction story and real life - in real life, there are many hanging “plot threads” which will never be concluded. Real life (in my belief, ha) doesn’t have a moderator shaping our actions and creating coherent plot arcs. I expect more of fiction. An author is the all-knowing creator of his characters, he knows EVERYTHING about them and has absolute power over what we, as the reader, see. I think there is an implicit promise when you read fiction that plotlines will go somewhere, and we will get some sort of conclusion. I think the sign of a bad, usually bloated, book is many extraneous storylines that don’t serve in any way the main narrative(s). So, why I wouldn’t feel as betrayed as @PhineasGage should Kaladin’s involvement in Shallan’s romantic arc go nowhere else, I would see it as a poor writing decision. No author is perfect though! Just want to note that this doesn’t necessarily mean Shallan and Kaladin have a romantic relationship - but I think there needs to be something more for me to feel it was worth the tons of page time. 

Just to weigh in on the discussion between @SLNC @Darvys and @straits, I think this is a hard issue. Yes, I totally agree that we do not want to stifle artistic creativity by allowing authors to only create plotlines where the characters make healthy decisions the reader population would want to emulate. But on the other hand, media and artistic portrayals definitely effect social norms. If you have enough books where the girls/women find salvation in a strong man who solves their issues, then this will become something that influences how women are seen/behave in society. So, I do think writers have some responsibility to their readers (and women in my example) in how those decisions are portrayed. I have a different touch point here than @SLNC (women agency vs mental health), but you can’t completely absolve any artist of responsibility to help shape social norms in a positive manner. (Another example is Hollywood’s lack of portrayal of people of color and trying to fit those characters into side roles, like the funny sidekick.)

Just a small note, @PhineasGage if you are talking about me being offended by @Greywatch, we worked it out as they were not referring to the point I thought in the particular comment which upset me. But I do hope this isn’t perceived as an Adolin-bashing thread (though I know some people who post aren’t the hugest Adolin fans.) I see it as an “ending of Shallan’s romantic arc in OB”-bashing thread, and I think (sorry if I’m wrong) @Greywatch is on board with that, lol. 

[Greywatch she/her]

5 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Just a small note, @PhineasGage if you are talking about me being offended by @Greywatch, we worked it out as they were not referring to the point I thought in the particular comment which upset me. But I do hope this isn’t perceived as an Adolin-bashing thread (though I know some people who post aren’t the hugest Adolin fans.) I see it as an “ending of Shallan’s romantic arc in OB”-bashing thread, and I think (sorry if I’m wrong) @Greywatch is on board with that, lol. 

You are correct!  I am also not the biggest fan of how the triangle ended, I just was upset with some of the arguments being made which I thought were unfair. But the overall point? Nah... If we're all dissatisfied with the ending, then I don't see that there's any problem with saying so.

[RenegadeShroom]

I seriously do not understand how Adolin daring to try and be supportive of Shallan is somehow worse for Shallan than Kaladin, who literally hasn't yet grasped that Shallan has a problem with repressing memories and emotions and letting them fester for literal years, and thinks that she's beautiful anyway and in Adolin's position would be enabling her super unhealthy coping mechanisms? Kaladin's entire view of the situation is "yes, yes this is good and ideal, wow, that's admirable, I admire her strength for being able to do this" and that is fundamentally worse. At least Adolin recognises that something is the matter there. 

I also don't get this assertion that because Adolin chooses to be supportive and encouraging, that he's obviously going to be solely responsible for her healing. The narrative's not portraying him as a solution or a therapist, not at all. The end result in the book isn't a matter of Shallan being healed, it's a matter of all three characters making independent decisions about their lives and one another. Both Shallan and Kaladin came to the realisation that they'd be better off without each other in a romantic sense, independently of one another, and Shallan chose to commit herself to Adolin, because she genuinely likes him and sincerely believes that the two of them are good together. And Adolin was perfectly willing to step aside if it came to that -- as misguided as that may be -- entirely for Shallan's happiness, and was understanding and sympathetic of both her and Kaladin in the situation. The foundation for Shalladin is a lot weaker, and at this point would require that all three characters ignore everything they went through and learned about themselves and one another in this book. All based on, from what I can tell, Shallan and Kaladin having funny banter a few times? And that they're attracted to each other. Despite the fact that Shallan and Adolin are also attracted to each other, and that Shallan and Kaladin both made conscious decisions about themselves and each other.

On a more personal note, I would simply not trust Shallan in a romantic relationship with Kaladin. I'm certain it would be unhealthy for both of them in that scenario. Shadolin is far more palatable to me, namely in that their first meeting didn't start out with Shallan being an abusive racist jerk for laughs and so that she could impress someone and feel good about herself. Kaladin and Shallan have the potential to make great friends, and that's an interpretation I enjoy!

Honestly my ideal scenario with the three would be both Shallan and Kaladin being with Adolin romantically, but not each other, but, sadly, that's not going to come to fruition. Nor is my actual ideal scenario outside of the "triangle" (seriously, it still bothers me that these situations are called 'love triangles' when they're not even triangles, they're just... angles. A triangle would be A <3 B <3 C <3 A, not A <3 B vs A <3 C!) going to come to fruition, Shallan finding another woman she's interested in, but that's another topic entirely.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

9 minutes ago, RenegadeShroom said:

Both Shallan and Kaladin came to the realisation that they'd be better off without each other in a romantic sense, independently of one another, and Shallan chose to commit herself to Adolin, because she genuinely likes him and sincerely believes that the two of them are good together.

We might just be seeing different subtext here, but it is very apparent that Shallan not only still has feelings for Kaladin, she is not committing fully as Veil still wants Kaladin. In addition, she doesn't so much believe they are good together as she does that Adolin is necessary for her to keep her other alters in check. The Shallan side needs Adolin as an anchor to remain the dominant alt, and it is less them being good together as her being the perfect wife for him and him being the perfect anchor for her Shallan side. That is the problems. Also, there was the Chasm scene. That was a much more poignant and meaningful scene than any we've had for Shallan and Adolin.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

That was a much more poignant and meaningful scene than any we've had for Shallan and Adolin.

And I'd argue, that on the boat scene, where Shallan and Kaladin talked about how mandras might feed on human emotions, was the most real, as in how she was before admitting to killing her mother, we've seen her in Oathbringer.

[Dreamstorm]

24 minutes ago, RenegadeShroom said:

I seriously do not understand how Adolin daring to try and be supportive of Shallan is somehow worse for Shallan than Kaladin, who literally hasn't yet grasped that Shallan has a problem with repressing memories and emotions and letting them fester for literal years, and thinks that she's beautiful anyway and in Adolin's position would be enabling her super unhealthy coping mechanisms? Kaladin's entire view of the situation is "yes, yes this is good and ideal, wow, that's admirable, I admire her strength for being able to do this" and that is fundamentally worse. At least Adolin recognises that something is the matter there. 

I also don't get this assertion that because Adolin chooses to be supportive and encouraging, that he's obviously going to be solely responsible for her healing. The narrative's not portraying him as a solution or a therapist, not at all. The end result in the book isn't a matter of Shallan being healed, it's a matter of all three characters making independent decisions about their lives and one another. Both Shallan and Kaladin came to the realisation that they'd be better off without each other in a romantic sense, independently of one another, and Shallan chose to commit herself to Adolin, because she genuinely likes him and sincerely believes that the two of them are good together. And Adolin was perfectly willing to step aside if it came to that -- as misguided as that may be -- entirely for Shallan's happiness, and was understanding and sympathetic of both her and Kaladin in the situation. The foundation for Shalladin is a lot weaker, and at this point would require that all three characters ignore everything they went through and learned about themselves and one another in this book. All based on, from what I can tell, Shallan and Kaladin having funny banter a few times? And that they're attracted to each other. Despite the fact that Shallan and Adolin are also attracted to each other, and that Shallan and Kaladin both made conscious decisions about themselves and each other.

I don't see it as Adolin vs Kaladin (and I think many people have moved away from that on here, though I know others have strong preferences one way of another.) Putting aside one's thoughts on the Shallan/Kaladin foreshadowing (a large reason why many people, myself included, think Kaladin will be the end game), the general sentiment is that it would also be quite bad for Shallan to have chosen to start a relationship with Kaladin. My concern is not that Shallan chose Adolin - he's a great guy and they have a decent relationship which I do think gets significant growth in OB, it's why she chose him. She "resolved" her fractured personality issues by choosing the version which Adolin saw/she wanted him to see, which is fundamentally unhealthy in my opinion (no one should rely on an outside person to define who they are.) Not to mention immediately after that moment, she goes back to gawking at Kaladin and then having to have an interpersonal conversation over which one to choose. This does not feel like a healthy decision (and her scene where she tells Adolin she chooses him is no better.) It's not about her choice of man, but about why she made that choice that is causing so much consternation here. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[GoddessIMHO]

I am curious as to what "professional" help it is that some think exists in Roshar?  Wit is pretty much it and he did help her pull back to the main 3 personalities.  She is currently better off than she was after Veil's melt down. Being with Adolin gives her a little breathing room to regroup.  I expect the next book will be her crisis and level up.

I don't see the sort of foreshadowing of a break with Pattern like we saw with Syl. All we have is less interaction but no sign that he is distressed. I think does seem wrong that he is silent during the pre-wedding discussion. I believe she will face her issues alone just like the other Radiants have had to. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Wit is pretty much it and he did help her pull back to the main 3 personalities. She is currently better off than she was after Veil's melt down. 

And went right ahead to throw out his advice, when Adolin came along and recognized "her". Well, at least what she was deigning herself to show him. Or do you really think, that Adolin knows Shallan?

[GoddessIMHO]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And went right ahead to throw out his advice, when Adolin came along and recognized "her". Well, at least what she was deigning herself to show him. Or do you really think, that Adolin knows Shallan?

Yes, I think Adolin "sees" the base Shallan and the others. He knows which one is current. You can argue that as good or bad but he does know.

[analyticaposteriori]

I really don't get the planned one year gap with so many immediate issues presenting itself at the end of OB.

Just staying with Shallan for now (and assuming that the end of OB in fact doesn't represent a start of some automatic, powered by power of love healing process for her of which we will only get to see the lovey-dovey, birth-giving end at the start of Book 4) - surely her problems won't stay static for a year - so much changed in just a few weeks of OB. And surely with how complicated her problems are BS won't just timeskip over them to some state of Shallan that is completely disconnected from her state at the end of OB. Afterall the journey is important and there won't be more of her flashbacks.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Yes, I think Adolin "sees" the base Shallan and the others. He knows which one is current. You can argue that as good or bad but he does know.

Exactly not. He only knows, that what is left of Shallan. That what she shows him. The slightly quirky, innocent, smart Shallan, that she always showed him. She even admits it in the book. She basically conned him all along and he fell in love with the con. He thinks, that Veil and Radiant are different persons and acts like that around them, but they're not. They're aspects of Shallan's personality, that she pushed away to give her to ability to keep functioning with all the different expectations, that were imposed on her, so she keeps switching between them to ignore the hurt that she feels when she is completely herself. He hasn't seen a bit of the true Shallan yet. Wit wanted her to revert back to the true Shallan. To reintegrate Veil and Radiant back into herself. To become herself again, but Adolin allows her - no, encourages her to keep being this shade of Shallan's personality - because that is the part of Shallan he loves. He doesn't love Radiant and he doesn't love Veil.

How can Shallan make an effort to recomplete her personality, when Adolin, her husband, only loves 1/3 of the true her? Even worse, another third of herself, Veil, is pining after another man.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

3 hours ago, RenegadeShroom said:

I seriously do not understand how Adolin daring to try and be supportive of Shallan is somehow worse for Shallan than Kaladin, who literally hasn't yet grasped that Shallan has a problem with repressing memories and emotions and letting them fester for literal years, and thinks that she's beautiful anyway and in Adolin's position would be enabling her super unhealthy coping mechanisms? Kaladin's entire view of the situation is "yes, yes this is good and ideal, wow, that's admirable, I admire her strength for being able to do this" and that is fundamentally worse. At least Adolin recognises that something is the matter there. 

This has been reiterated in the thread multiple times. Adolin is feeding and enabling her personality split. This is exactly the wrong way to be "supportive".

Kaladin definitely has less insight into Shallan's mental state. It likely has something to do with the fact that the two of them have spoken a grand total of three times after their encounter in the chasms. You said it yourself in this post; their only exchanges are banter - likely because they aren't speaking in private to begin with, since she spends that time with her betrothed. 

As an aside, the entire frame of debating this "triangle" is partially flawed ITT. There seems to be an assumption that if Adolin were to step aside, and Shallan were to "choose" Kaladin, the latter would throw his critical thinking out of the window and fly away with Shallan. This is an unfounded assumption.

[Prelude]

Andolin knows Shallan? It wasn’t him who picked up on what Shallan was doing when she was attempting to draw (was it?) shame spren. We get several little hints of Kal discerning Shallans movtiations.  BS never shows us from Andolins POV where we see that he knows he beyond what she shows him. 

[Diomedes]

So, idk, if this has been already mentioned.... But the one of the first Adolin/ Shallan chapter is entitled:

"Set Up to Fail" (p.220). It is the "No Mating" one. 

This sums up my thoughts on the Adolin/Shallan ship neatly.  

Edit: It is actually the chapter before the meeting with Mraize and Ialai 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Diomedes

[FuzzyWordsmith]

10 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

So, idk, if this has been already mentioned.... But the one of the first Adolin/ Shallan chapter is entitled:

"Set Up to Fail" (p.220). It is the "No Mating" one. 

This sums up my thoughts on the Adolin/Shallan ship neatly.   

This. This is the sort of thing I expect from Sanderson. Not a sappy "without you I fade" ending. This sort of thing. I now have some hope for the future. This is, after all, Brandon He-Bore-The-Fate-Of-The-World-On-His-Arms Sanderson. Excellent job realizing that chapter name.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

So, idk, if this has been already mentioned.... But the one of the first Adolin/ Shallan chapter is entitled:

"Set Up to Fail" (p.220). It is the "No Mating" one. 

This sums up my thoughts on the Adolin/Shallan ship neatly.   

I think, that was the one where they went to Ialai Sadeas together? But yes, lots of, basically only, Adolin/Shallan interaction in that chapter. To be fair, I don't see any connection of the phase "Set Up to Fail" and the chapter contents, so it really could be foreshadowing.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I don't see the sort of foreshadowing of a break with Pattern like we saw with Syl. All we have is less interaction but no sign that he is distressed. I think does seem wrong that he is silent during the pre-wedding discussion. I believe she will face her issues alone just like the other Radiants have had to. 

I think breaking a spren bond will be different based on the type of spren and also based on the person we are seeing the break through. Kaladin feels different things than Shallan, and for all we know, she is suppressing any issues Pattern may be having. It would certainly fit into her overall character (suppressing painful things.) That being said, it’s definitely not overt, but I also didn’t pick up on the break in Syl and Kaladin’s bond until he couldn’t draw in stormlight on the bridge expedition. I also think Shallan is engaging in behavior which goes against her order’s ideals of admitting truths, as numerous times on the book we see her actively pushing down painful thoughts (killing her mother with Pattern and Kaladin killing Heleran, for example.) Of course, I also think something is Very Wrong with Shallan, and I interpret things through that lense, so I can’t look past the things you mention like Pattern being less chatty and barely involved in Shallan’s post-TC viewpoints. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I also think Shallan is engaging in behavior which goes against her order’s ideals of admitting truths, as numerous times on the book we see her actively pushing down painful thoughts (killing her mother with Pattern and Kaladin killing Heleran, for example.) Of course, I also think something is Very Wrong with Shallan, and I interpret things through that lense, so I can’t look past the things you mention like Pattern being less chatty and barely involved in Shallan’s post-TC viewpoints. 

Yes. She is deluding herself about herself, which goes against attaining self-awareness and doesn't truly accept, that she killed her mother, which is the last Truth, that she spoke, which I think is equivalent to breaking one's oath.

[Awesomness]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yes. She is deluding herself about herself, which goes against attaining self-awareness and doesn't truly accept, that she killed her mother, which is the last Truth, that she spoke, which I think is equivalent to breaking one's oath.

Could this be why her shard plate hasn't manifested? 

She is 4th level, her lightweaving is really great, but she can't soulcast either. In fact, she seems to be on the same level than Kaladin (very good with one surge, not so great with the other, blade, not plate).

Offtopic: I don't really know how I ended up thinking today (sure this thread has nothing to do with it.....) Wouldn't it be weird for non-radiants to date/marry a KR? They already have a life companion that follows them everywhere, know their thoughts and secrets. Wouldn't it be like being the second to your first/most important person?

[AubreyWrites she/her]

3 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Offtopic: I don't really know how I ended up thinking today (sure this thread has nothing to do with it.....) Wouldn't it be weird for non-radiants to date/marry a KR? They already have a life companion that follows them everywhere, know their thoughts and secrets. Wouldn't it be like being the second to your first/most important person?

I think it would probably be different for each one considering the wide variance of the natures of  both Spren and KR. Take for example some of the the different types of bonds we have on display now.

Kaladin/Syl:

These two are obviously very close and as Kaladin progresses their bond deepens. Syl's understanding and perception of human behavior has expanded exponentially. She is capable of caring about Kaladin and wants to be involved in his life choices. She is Kaladin's confidante. I could see in the future any non Radient woman coming into his life might have the opportunity to feel intimidated by and playing second fiddle to their relationship.

Shallan/Pattern:

Their relationship is much different. For one thing at one point Shallan actually tells Pattern she hates him. (Now I think a lot of this is self hate at how she has made use of Pattern in killing her mother but the point remains that she has a lot of resentment built up towards him) This is the foundations of their conscious bond. As Pattern grows in awareness their relationship very much stays in the academic. Experientation with lies and truth. They aren't best buddies. Shallan resents being tied to him but still makes use of him as you would a tool. When in Shadesmar we hardly see them interact at all unless Shallan needs something. (As opposed to Kaladin who flips his lid when Syl gets locked up) 

Dalinar/StormFather:

This is the first Relationship we see reversed where the KR seeked to bond the spren instead of the otherway around with the Spren finding the KR. Their relationship is still evolving as well. At the beginning of OB the Stormfather is very resistant to being bound and to considering any form of change and by the end he has more or less accepted the Nahel bond. Their partnership is still very much on a professional level of colleagues working towards a common goal - not drinking buddies out to shoot the breeze and experiment with Dalinar's powers. In fact several times we see the storm father refuse to give information or help because he doesn't trust Dalinar. I don't think Navani is worried that Dalinar is suddenly going to keep all his confidences from her in preference for hashing it out  HighStorm style. 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[jamskinner]

11 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Yeah, this makes me further not understand how anyone considered this a healthy conclusion. We literally see the proper way of handling this and people seem to completely ignore that and consider the ending a proper resolution. It makes no sense to me.

We see things different because we are not automatons 

 

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

@Darvys

I love Brandon's books as the next one here and, despite this whole ordeal with Shallan and her supposed solution to the problem, Oathbringer was a very enjoyable read, but that doesn't mean he should be impervious to criticism.

I'm not blaming Brandon for any life decisions anyone does, but if I were an author and would decide to incorporate dissociative disorders or any other mental illnesses into a character in my book... I wouldn't want to feel responsible for any bad choices someone makes, because he has read my book. I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages. If you're not ready to accomodate your story to do that, then don't address them, but I might be alone with that line of thinking.

That Shallan made a bad choice might be obvious to you and me, but not for someone who suffers from the same condition and maybe looks for confirmation, that he is doing the right thing by thinking he can get through it by leaning on his SO.

I don't see how brandon is spreading false messages.  I think most people's problem is that there is not any post marriage scenes to judge shallan by. So then we are all just seeing what we want to see.  People don't want to wait 3 years for the result