[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Darvys said:

Even if i'm wrong and Brandon did take the cringeworthy path despite all the awesomeness we got from him, maybe the least we can do is wait to have confirmation before we start crying and tearing our clothes and hair in despair ? 

I do agree, but I wouldn't take it too much to heart - some of the rage/despair is part of the grieving process. Most people will likely end up agreeing with you, it just sometimes takes a while to get there

On top of that, hearing about people celebrating the sinking of the Shalladin is annoying, so people are reacting to that in a visceral/defensive manner. It will get better once the community stabilises. In a few weeks we'll all be much more rational. In the meantime, it is still raw and emotional, and that is actually a (backhanded) compliment to Sanderson's writing because we all were so invested and believe that he is capable of being one of the truly great writers that will stand the test of time. As Wit said, all art is hated.

[Guest]

@Darvys

I love Brandon's books as the next one here and, despite this whole ordeal with Shallan and her supposed solution to the problem, Oathbringer was a very enjoyable read, but that doesn't mean he should be impervious to criticism.

I'm not blaming Brandon for any life decisions anyone does, but if I were an author and would decide to incorporate dissociative disorders or any other mental illnesses into a character in my book... I wouldn't want to feel responsible for any bad choices someone makes, because he has read my book. I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages. If you're not ready to accomodate your story to do that, then don't address them, but I might be alone with that line of thinking.

That Shallan made a bad choice might be obvious to you and me, but not for someone who suffers from the same condition and maybe looks for confirmation, that he is doing the right thing by thinking he can get through it by leaning on his SO.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@Darvys

I love Brandon's books as the next one here and, despite this whole ordeal with Shallan and her supposed solution to the problem, Oathbringer was a very enjoyable read, but that doesn't mean he should be impervious to criticism.

I'm not blaming Brandon for any life decisions anyone does, but if I were an author and would decide to incorporate dissociative disorders or any other mental illnesses into a character in my book... I wouldn't want to feel responsible for any bad choices someone makes, because he has read my book. I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages. If you're not ready to accomodate your story to do that, then don't address them, but I might be alone with that line of thinking.

This is probably a valid point for depression-related issues specifically, and one encounter with Wit does not constitute proper professional help in Shallan's case.

But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes, Shallan's multiple personality flaws are a fictional mental disorder in the way that it is expressed. Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

Edited November 25, 2017 by straits
punctuation

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, straits said:

But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes, Shallan's multiple personality flaws are a fictional mental disorder in the way that it is expressed. Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

Shallan's disorder can be compared to a real-life disorder. It is not DID, you're right, but these exist in real-life too and are called OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorders; http://traumadissociation.com/osdd). What is important is that someone might read Shallan in Oathbringer might get really invested in her and identify with her and make some bad decisions based on that. I wouldn't want to feel responsible for that, but Brandon might see that differently.

And yes, I will call out every author of whom I think, that he handles it badly and sends false messages, because a huge problem with the acknowledge ment of mental issues in society is still lack of education regarding them and shame to go to get help. Many already confide in their SO, but are still afraid of their public image and don't go to a therapist. The marriage is presented as the supposed solution at the end of OB, which confirms this line of thought.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages.

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

Here's something that I use to cheer my self up, and I hope it helps you guys as well.

We're posting on the Spoiler board for the latest book release, in the forum of the official fansite. Not only that, but we are currently very big and very noisy. We, certainly, cannot be ignored and I hope we cannot be dismissed, as no matter where we fall with our preferences, and actually the fact that they're so varied is a good thing, all this analysis cannot be dismissed as to having no merit. It's simply impossible, unless it's purposefully done in which case we can't do anything. Our concerns and doubts are well supported by arguments that I think no amount of confirmation bias, on our part, could manifest. We're going strong for 10 days now and instead of this thread getting buried more and more people are joining us. I have to hope that we're heard. I have to hope that feedback is received on a odjective basis.

I know this all may sound  as hammy, hopeful platitudes but it helps me. I hope it does the trick for you as well.

Edited November 25, 2017 by DimChatz

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Darvys said:

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

No, but give the right closure at end of a book and don't leave it hanging in the air for 3 years, because even if it resolved in a realistic manner in a later book, over those 3 years many will have read the 'supposed solution' and yes it is presented as that, because Shallan feels like it is so. Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

[Greywatch she/her]

So the argument has shifted from "we DO like Adolin" to "it's okay if we hate on him a bit because he's fictional". Things are getting heated, and the goalposts for answering posts are shifting. 

Last time I checked, the opening post was asking about opinions and didn't seem to about specifically being here for Shalladin shippers to express their feelings, but most everyone who doesn't ship it has certainly fled/decided not to respond. You know, that's okay, and it can just be what it's shifted into, but it doesn't have to wait to be civil. People should be civil all the time, not after a vague undetermined amount of time for "emotions to cool". There isn't an excuse. 

Personally, my point of view is in line with a lot of some of the very good arguments in here, but I've chosen to defend a fictional character, Adolin, because I identify with him, and I think some of the arguments here do him wrong. 

And here's another thing. I've been defending a fictional character, and then been told not to take it so seriously, (and I believe in this I was also called a snowflake?) and it's okay to be rude about a fictional character because... you also just care about your preferred fictional relationship so much. This is a double standard, and I understand that it feels correct to say this because emotions are in the mix, but I think at this point maybe it needs to be said: It's not bad when I do it but then a-okay when you do it. At this point we are all perceiving hostility when perhaps there wasn't any and then taking it as justification to say some things in this thread that are... ill-conceived.

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, straits said:

But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes

Sorry this is just not true. The DSM has a clear definition and psychiatrists and psychologists have clear recommendations made to them about management for people with DID and related disorders. It hasn't become a mainstream topic because mental health is poorly addressed by society as a whole. 

 

15 minutes ago, straits said:

Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

Again, not true. She doesn't hallucinate. Hallucinations are defined as situations where you experience a phenomenon (sight/sound/taste/touch) in the absence of an actual stimulus that provokes that sensation. Shallan's illusions are real because others can see and hear them. It is magic, sure, but her use of magic is no more madness than us displaying pictures via projector.

I do agree that her illusions have made her more able to identify as different people, but that doesn't mean she has divided herself significantly differently to how a RL person would.

6 minutes ago, Darvys said:

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

I have sympathy with both sides of this argument. I do agree that authors shouldn't be limited as to how they write, but at the same time, a responsible person doesn't shout fire in a crowded theatre unless there is one.

You are completely right that we are responsible for our own interpretations, but Brandon has some  responsibility there to because he wrote the book in such a way as to lead us to them. When addressing complex issues such as mental healh disorder - particularly ones which little or no coverage, it is really imprtant to consider all the possible outcomes of your writing.

This means that he could very easily come out and say something like "This is not a real disease, Shallan is a fictional character and regardless of what happens to her I do not want people to assume she is written to be a role model or that her decisions are the right ones". That doesn't mess up the book, or imply that her outcome is wrong. It highlights the fact that he is not truly using a real world analogue without giving away whether her solution is right for her or not. It kills the discussion here but also reduces the risk of someone using Shallan as a guide for a healthy solution to a very real problem.

@DimChatz I am nominating you for official thread cheerleader. I hope you have your own pompoms?

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

People are vulnerable to this. It is a great tool in the kit for staying alive when you are a hunter gather living on the plains of Africa in the Stone Age. Its not so good when you have a problem and are looking for ways to justify your planned behaviour.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

People are vulnerable to this. It is a great tool in the kit for staying alive when you are a hunter gather living on the plains of Africa in the Stone Age. Its not so good when you have a problem and are looking for ways to justify your planned behaviour.

What I meant is that people who suffer from the same issues are even more vulnerable to that, but you're right of course. Confirmation bias is an universal issue in people.

[straits]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Shallan's disorder can be compared to a real-life disorder. It is not DID, you're right, but these exist in real-life too and are called OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorders; http://traumadissociation.com/osdd). What is important is that someone might read Shallan in Oathbringer might get really invested in her and identify with her and make some bad decisions based on that. I wouldn't want to feel responsible for that, but Brandon might see that differently.

And yes, I will call out every author of whom I think, that he handles it badly and sends false messages, because a huge problem with the acknowledge ment of mental issues in society is still lack of education regarding them and shame to go to get help. Many already confide in their SO, but are still afraid of their public image and don't go to a therapist. The marriage is presented as the supposed solution at the end of OB, which confirms this line of thought.

Good link, I didn't know about that variant of dissociative disorder. There might be a real danger if a reader has been brought up in a cult environment, proceeds to suffer from OSDD, and then concludes their escapism is good from reading a book. But I strongly disagree with policing the author just because "someone" might do "something" as a result of reading a book. 

However, there is nothing wrong with writing an essay, an article, or similar, about the book if you feel strongly about it, or encouraging boycotting in cases where you really feel it's harmful literature.

I think the idea that Shallan's issues are "resolved" is a misinterpretation. She still thinks of Veil as a real personality, and Adolin feeds that. This isn't portrayed as a solution; it's clearly exacerbation of the problem despite the participants' feeling good about it. I think a deeper interpretation of the events Sanderson writes are the reader's burden to understand, and not the writer's burden to simplify.

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by straits
removed a word

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, straits said:

However, I think the idea that Shallan's issues are "resolved" is a misinterpretation. She still thinks of Veil as a real personality, and Adolin feeds that. This isn't portrayed as a solution; it's clearly exacerbation of the problem despite the participants' feeling good about it. I think a deeper interpretation of the events Sanderson writes are the reader's burden to understand, and not the writer's burden to simplify.

 

Shallan thinks she has solved it. She thinks she has it under control. This just tells someone who dissociates himself, that that is a practical solution... It isn't!

Sorry, I'm getting worked up. I think, I'll go on a run around the block.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

Just now, SLNC said:

Shallan thinks she has solved it. She thinks she has it under control. This just tells someone who dissociates himself, that that is a practical solution... It isn't!

So? This is a real description of a possible outcome for someone who has this illness. The author doesn't have the responsibility to guide the character from the mental illness towards successful treatment. It could become worse - this could be grounds for Shallan sliding into further mental issues later on in the sequels.

Your problem seems to be with the fact that someone reading this might conclude that she "solved" her issues because she's happy. This interpretation of events from the side of the reader is wrong, and the author is not obliged to spoon-feed the reader.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

16 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently studying Medicine, whilst in my mid thirties, and I am in the Middle East. I am very sick of being told my tutors that I don't really want to be a [insert medical specialty here] - I should be a GP so I can look after my future babies....... It makes me mad as hell. I am not anti the idea of children, but I'm not crazy about it either. If a womans wants kids then more power to her. As Jasnah would say, her strength should lie in her power to choose. If I end up as a GP it should be because that is what I want, not because I am a walking uterus.

 

Ok, so I see your point, and I was maybe too harsh. I was thinking about the 15 year old I helped deliver of a baby a few months ago. She didn't choose to get pregnant. It was a complete mistake. She was still going out and drinking/smoking right up to the end doing god knows what harm to the foetus. I don't blame a teenager for being selfish, but then you shouldn't get pregnant if you cant identify with the idea of putting someone else first.

Your achievement was that you chose. I can get behind that as an achievement because it is empowering in a society where many people push you into the idea of wanting kids. It is ok to want kids, it is great if they make you a better person, it is fantastic if you feel that they broaden your scope and understanding as a person. But none of things are a good reason to want them. It should happen because you are ready and you make the choice.

I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. 

 

I don't think it needs to be quite so dramatic - I can see why you say that though. In addiction, hitting "rock bottom" is often the way people finally get the clarity they need to start the healing process. I am not sure that is strictly necessary with OSDD. Though I would definitely defer to @FuzzyWordsmith's experience in that. I just think it could be argued that someone like Shallan may be capable of getting out of it without another crash. It probably does need to be a bad moment though.

@PhineasGage So first of all - major props to you for being able to sort through and multi quote and respond to all these posts so quickly. Girl you are a machine and I salute you! 

I see what you mean and yes that would drive me crazy. My husband comments on my apparently increasingly sensitivity issues regarding women ( to be fair to him never in a way that is hurtful) so I can see where the sentiment that Shallan's natural progression from marriage is to start popping out kids would be irritating because that sentiment bugs me too. We are more than walking uteruses! Lol 

i just couldn't resist clarifying where that mentality may come from a bit. 

Commenting on your observation about choice and Jasnah's words: I wish I could find the actual quote of that because this was an incredibly moving and inspiring piece of writing. It really resonates with me and touched me as a person. And it demonstrates a depth of understanding a strong woman that that contrast so crazily with the odd turn at the end of OB that makes me think BS HAS to know what he he's doing right??!! Makes makes the disparity even more jarring! 

My comment on raising kids was mainly directly at the observation that kids aren't interesting until they are old enough to be interesting. I just haven't found that to be true and was comparing how we watch their changes and progression with the same excitement we show these imaginary people we are so hyped up about. 

 

i do think shallan is going to have to have some sort of 'rock bottom' moment because it wouldnt make sense if she just up and got better after acquiring the 'love of a good strong man' 

i think Pattern is gonna be our canary on this subject and watching him will be a good indication of how close we get to hitting that bottom. 

[straits]

9 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry this is just not true. The DSM has a clear definition and psychiatrists and psychologists have clear recommendations made to them about management for people with DID and related disorders. It hasn't become a mainstream topic because mental health is poorly addressed by society as a whole. 

 

Again, not true. She doesn't hallucinate. Hallucinations are defined as situations where you experience a phenomenon (sight/sound/taste/touch) in the absence of an actual stimulus that provokes that sensation. Shallan's illusions are real because others can see and hear them. It is magic, sure, but her use of magic is no more madness than us displaying pictures via projector.

I do agree that her illusions have made her more able to identify as different people, but that doesn't mean she has divided herself significantly differently to how a RL person would.

...

I was paraphrasing what I read off the wiki references. They state that the frameworks defining dissociative disorders are vague, and that the treatment methodology is inconsistent. I'm not an expert on mental illness, so if you could link me to a study that outlines successful treatments to these disorders, I will retract what I said earlier and agree with you here.

And Shallan's use of magic is harmful to her mental state, in a way not really predictable by a real world model. She can change her appearance and project the appearance of her other personalities in real time, in front of herself, which is more sophisticated than anything someone in real life can achieve. At some point she overlaid Shallan's face over Veil's face (over her own in turn), and projected an image of Shallan while standing elsewhere as Veil. This is a pretty convoluted mechanism of acting out multiple personalities.

Interesting topic though, I'd like to learn more.

[PhineasGage]

@Greywatch 

1) The goalposts haven't changed - People are expressing different opinions and occasionally opinions change - its the point of debate. 

2) The thread has shifted over time because of that discussion. If some people have chosen to stay because of something but others have chosen to leave - that it going to result in a change to the direction of the thread. Nothing anyone can do about it. People can come in here and debate all they like but I can't force them to if they don't want to.

3) You came into the thread, attacked us for being anti Adolin and putting people off posting here and THEN get all offended when we point out that no-one here is going to pander to that. YOU are a moderator which gives you power. You can influence the direction of people's thoughts. You may have stopped people posting anti Adolin stuff because of what you said and that is suppressing their freedom of speech. We aren't doing that because this is only one thread - but you are going to potentially stop people posting it anywhere in the forum. That's not ok.

I apologise for implying you were a snowflake. It was very wrong of me to do so. I will admit that I did let my emotions get the better of me. 

You should, however be aware that at least one person took your post as a personal insult and that is worse than anyone here insulting Adolin, no matter how much anyone relates to him.

 

On that note, ladies and gents, I'm going to retire for the evening (or get banned, you know) but I look forward to reading through your thoughts later.

[Greywatch she/her]

14 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

On that note, ladies and gents, I'm going to retire for the evening (or get banned, you know) but I look forward to reading through your thoughts later.

PhineasGage, I'm not going to ban anyone for disagreeing with me. Not me, nor any of the mods would do that. Disagreements are part of this, certainly, and from my perspective, I've matched the tone of the thread. Perhaps I shouldn't have! It's not an abuse of mod power to have an opinion, but perhaps I should have responded more coolly. But in this thread, I've explained my own thoughts and feelings. None of my posts were meant as attacks, and it's exactly my point that emotions are running hot right now that we are all taking them that way.

If said person who was personally insulted wants to, my inbox is open, and I would be glad to make amends with them directly.

Edited for more.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, straits said:

So? This is a real description of a possible outcome for someone who has this illness. The author doesn't have the responsibility to guide the character from the mental illness towards successful treatment. It could become worse - this could be grounds for Shallan sliding into further mental issues later on in the sequels.

Your problem seems to be with the fact that someone reading this might conclude that she "solved" her issues because she's happy. This interpretation of events from the side of the reader is wrong, and the author is not obliged to spoon-feed the reader.

I see your point. Let us just agree to disagree. Same goes for you @Darvys

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites she/her]

33 minutes ago, Darvys said:

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

 

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No, but give the right closure at end of a book and don't leave it hanging in the air for 3 years, because even if it resolved in a realistic manner in a later book, over those 3 years many will have read the 'supposed solution' and yes it is presented as that, because Shallan feels like it is so. Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

@SLNC you beat me to it. 

Its not the fact that Shallan makes a (open to interpretation here) wrong decision. If that's a decision she makes on her journey as a character then I am strapped in for the ride no matter which way she goes. But she made a decision and then the book ended. ......crickets......

no her arc doesn't need to be tied up In A Bow- there are seven more books to go but it feels like this arc got violently cut in half. 

What I have always appreciated from Brandon's books is that each book even when part of a series feels like a whole book. We have a beginning, middle, end. It's not THE end but is ONE end to each particular book. 

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

[straits]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I see your point. Let us just agree to disagree. Same goes for you @Darvys

Yeah, that's fine with me. I don't think your cause here is bad or that your reasoning is invalid; I just doubt the extent to which an author can be held responsible to other people's decisions.

[Darvys]

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

Meh, a bit of hysteria will be nice. Want to count the number of readers who will be willing to give up their firstborn for a Shallan excerpt when the time comes ?

Myself, i don't really share the feeling, that's because i believe that you shippers and i (yeah, i'll never admit to it) are right in our assumptions concerning Shallan's arc in this book, it's the doubt that's creating so much tension, once you accept that what we've been guessing is what's been intended it all kinda fits, we might have hoped for it to be clearer from the text, but that would be no fun either.

 

[Prelude]

If I open SA4 and Shallan has her hand on a burgeoning baby bump I may throw the book across the room. I am a mom with three beautiful kids. Kids don’t fix martial relationship  problems if anything I believe they shine lights on the problems. I shudder to think there being a kid with Shallan as a mom. How confusing would it be for the poor kid. Who is mom today? 

And I don’t know. What if while being intimate with Shallan Veil bleeds through and is like bored and if it’s Radient rolls her eyes at Andolin in the moment. I never got the sense she really gained any control over them. Just saying 

My comment maybe really random to the progression of the thread. I’m really tired with getting no sleep over this book and telling you all now I’m not as smart as you all. So thanks again for letting my chime in random not well written thoughts. 

[Egomere]

by the rusting storms I go way for a day and come back to 5 more pages. I'm not even going to try and reply to everyone far too much. but

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

 

@SLNC you beat me to it. 

Its not the fact that Shallan makes a (open to interpretation here) wrong decision. If that's a decision she makes on her journey as a character then I am strapped in for the ride no matter which way she goes. But she made a decision and then the book ended. ......tumbleweed......

no her arc doesn't need to be tied up In A Bow- there are seven more books to go but it feels like this arc got violently cut in half. 

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

@AubreyWrites I think tumbleweed sounds would have been better so FTFY.

And yes the having to wait three years to actually find out if the storyarc is completed or not is going to torment me. I think that's one of the biggest issues - we got teased and foreshadowed about the relationship and Shallan's character growth and development only to see it fizzle into what feels like BS penchant for arranged marriages are great regardless...

I will say again - it's not that Shallan ends up with Adolin - I'll admit I find his character just too bland (great hair, smile, everyone loves him and never seems to have to deal with consequences of his actions; Sadeas anyone?) rather than with Kaladin, it's just how the choice was made just felt far too rushed, and kind of trite, with some potentially great scenes being ignored completely. (Helaran, flight to oathgate etc...) Which I feel wont ever be addressed now because if Book 4 does have a year time sink then they will never come up (because if they were they would have already happened Now. 

And now Shallan's character feels so 'gah' in how she regressed - and I do think a bit of time with Kaladin to work through her brothers death and more 'pure' Shallan scholar (on the boat talking about the spren) could have helped her come to terms and make a proper accurate choice (tbh I think she still may have picked Adolin) but it would have been at least a choice I could have deemed healthy rather than this terrible, looks like she's going to kill Pattern and shatter herself choice.

Then to have wait 3 years to find out whether that was the genuine (unsatisfying end) or just BS leading into some super mega awesome Shallan healing... (but hopefully self-healing not Adolin healing hands....)

just 'gah' again. oh and rust, storms and I guess I should volunteer to be galley cook / bosun or something on the SS Shallan (far from land)...

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Prelude said:

I’m really tired with getting no sleep over this book and telling you all now I’m not as smart as you all. So thanks again for letting my chime in random not well written thoughts. 

Don't say you're not smart. Just chime in when you feel like it. This forum is public for a reason, we want everyone to participate. That, of course, also goes to people, who don't agree with the majority in the thread here. I love to hear counterpoints, but only if I'm allowed to try to refute them.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

If we are picking ship roles, can I be the captain's Chicken? I feel I have some of the necessary qualifications, and am willing to bring my own feathers.