[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[FuzzyWordsmith]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread.

I thought he did have growth, it just wasn't on the same scope as the Radiants. I liked that his story was about stepping back and being extremely self-reflective - I think it's something he's needed to do a lot in the past couple books, and I was glad to see him get it. Reviving Maya was a beautiful moment for me, evidence that Adolin's constant love, affection, and loyalty was meaningful. That it wasn't wasted, that his straightforward constancy is powerful enough to do the impossible. I think he's quite intelligent, but mostly puts effort towards the things that he values. I think he has also been through some terrible things in his life, but has an incredible mental and emotional resilience so much so that it leads people who don't know him to underestimate and think of him as simple and easy to manipulate (Sadeas...) I could really go on, but though I don't like Shadolin that much, I certainly think he's equally worthy of the consideration and respect.

I agree with most of the post, but I don't think the bolded thing is entirely accurate. The feeling I'm getting is that people don't really want Shallan to end up with Kaladin either. Most fans of Kaladin actually feel he dodged a bullet. People seem to dislike the how more than the who. I'm not sure anyone wanted Shallan as she is in OB to pick Kaladin over Adolin.

[Greywatch she/her]

1 minute ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I agree with most of the post, but I don't think the bolded thing is entirely accurate. The feeling I'm getting is that people don't really want Shallan to end up with Kaladin either. Most fans of Kaladin actually feel he dodged a bullet. People seem to dislike the how more than the who. I'm not sure anyone wanted Shallan as she is in OB to pick Kaladin over Adolin.

A few people have said that, but always with the caveat that they do want Shadolin to end and Shalladin to happen in the future, so I feel like the clarification is a bit disingenuous. 

[AubreyWrites she/her]

11 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread.

I thought he did have growth, it just wasn't on the same scope as the Radiants. I liked that his story was about stepping back and being extremely self-reflective - I think it's something he's needed to do a lot in the past couple books, and I was glad to see him get it. Reviving Maya was a beautiful moment for me, evidence that Adolin's constant love, affection, and loyalty was meaningful. That it wasn't wasted, that his straightforward constancy is powerful enough to do the impossible. I think he's quite intelligent, but mostly puts effort towards the things that he values. I think he has also been through some terrible things in his life, but has an incredible mental and emotional resilience so much so that it leads people who don't know him to underestimate and think of him as simple and easy to manipulate (Sadeas...) I could really go on, but though I don't like Shadolin that much, I certainly think he's equally worthy of the consideration and respect.

I think if you go back through this whole thread and look you will find multiple posts of these exact same sentiments. 

 

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

agree with most of the post, but I don't think the bolded thing is entirely accurate. The feeling I'm getting is that people don't really want Shallan to end up with Kaladin either. Most fans of Kaladin actually feel he dodged a bullet. People seem to dislike the how more than the who. I'm not sure anyone wanted Shallan as she is in OB to pick Kaladin over Adolin.

Yes - this

[FuzzyWordsmith]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

A few people have said that, but always with the caveat that they do want Shadolin to end and Shalladin to happen in the future, so I feel like the clarification is a bit disingenuous. 

I get the impression that Shalladin shippers aren't the only ones who want Shadolin to end. I don't really care if Shalladin were to happen at this point, but I still think Shadolin might be better off ending for both their sakes. Shallan is clearly not ready for this, and Adolin could be spared a great deal of suffering.

[Greywatch she/her]

A reminder to edit your post instead of double-post, AubreyWrites. 

Yeah, I wouldn't be destroyed, or even bothered, about Shadolin ending within the first ten seconds of SA4, but you can see that wasn't the gist of my post. My post was about the dismissal of Adolin as an unworthy or bad option for Shallan.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

@Greywatch I'm not quite sure what you mean about the double posting as I have posted 2 completely separate thoughts in the space of 30 minutes and the quotes I included in each post from different people are in there exactly as I wished them to be. But thank you for policing my efforts in this discussion. 

[Greywatch she/her]

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

@Greywatch I'm not quite sure what you mean about the double posting as I have posted 2 completely separate thoughts in the space of 30 minutes and the quotes I included in each post from different people are in there exactly as I wished them to be. But thank you for policing my efforts in this discussion. 

I merged your posts, actually.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

12 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

@Greywatch I'm not quite sure what you mean about the double posting as I have posted 2 completely separate thoughts in the space of 30 minutes and the quotes I included in each post from different people are in there exactly as I wished them to be. But thank you for policing my efforts in this discussion. 

Double posting is posting twice in a row(it's not a duplicated post, although that would count). It's generally disapproved of, since you can edit in additional thoughts into your prior post. Pages only hold 25 posts each, so minimizing the clutter is something people should do.

Edited November 25, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[AubreyWrites she/her]

@Greywatch then I'm not quite sure what to tell you-thank you? I'm quite sure I did not intentionally post twice. However it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility as my kid had my phone for about 5minutes during sleep time routine and I wouldn't put anything past that one's fingers. I did not see it or I would fixed it so thanks for the catch. 

25 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I get the impression that Shalladin shippers aren't the only ones who want Shadolin to end. I don't really care if Shalladin were to happen at this point, but I still think Shadolin might be better off ending for both their sakes. Shallan is clearly not ready for this, and Adolin could be spared a great deal of suffering.

Bolded- agreed

[Elsvette Mintyfresh she/her]

Wow, I cannot keep up with everyone else in this thread! 

I'll admit that Shalladin was the first ship I ever felt actually invested in. Usually, I'm more than happy to let the narrative take the characters where it will. The fact that I felt invested from the moment Kaladin and Shallan meet in WOR tells me that there was something real there. 

That said, I went into OB ready to be convinced that Shadolin was the better route, if that was where BS wanted to take his story... but, well, obviously I'm still unconvinced. I'm just so glad to know I'm not alone. 

And,  @PhineasGage, I'm looking forward to your fanfic.

[Dreamstorm]

48 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

A few people have said that, but always with the caveat that they do want Shadolin to end and Shalladin to happen in the future, so I feel like the clarification is a bit disingenuous. 

I'm probably one of the people you are referring to. On an emotional level (as in - if these peeps were my friends, who would I want them to end up with), I think there are arguments for both and am fairly neutral. Frankly, I didn't realize I was kind of meh on Kaladin until I realized I like him so much more after this book (it seemed like his character was either depressed or saving to day, and as awesome as the moments were when he saved everyone, I didn't see him as really human until seeing more of his faults through other (i.e. B4) viewpoints and having him fail to save others.)

From a literary perspective, however, I find it hard to believe Kaladin isn't part of Shallan's end game due to excessive amount of foreshadowing and page time spent developing a Kaladin/Shallan romantic connection. Why waste so much page space where your main character could be developing in other ways in order to have a romantic connection that goes nowhere? The consistent complaint I see about this book is that there wasn't enough page space for certain character development scenes (what people want to see more of varies, but posters have expressed various discontent over not "seeing" key moments first hand.) Spending so much page time and pulling a bait and switch on the foreshadowing isn't good writing for me, and so far what I've read of Sanderson shows a more skilled writer than that. But I could be wrong. 

Basically, please don't call my position on the issue "disengenuous" just because you want to put me into a certain "shipping" box. It is completely possible to dislike a romantic storyline not because of who the girl chooses, but because of why and how. As I've also said before, I would also have been unhappy if Shallan took Adolin's out and ran into Kaladin's arms in a passionate embrace. That would have also felt false to me. This is a Shallan issue, and I'm getting very frustrated that our main female fantasy character is getting diminished in the discourse into just a point of contention over which man a poster prefers. (Sorry if this sounds aggressive, but the way this topic and the opinions around it are being misinterpreted is majorly raising my feminist hackles.)

Edited November 25, 2017 by Dreamstorm
Clarified what was called disengenuous

[Greywatch she/her]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Basically, please don't call me "disengenuous" just because you want to put me into a certain "shipping" box. It is completely possible to dislike a romantic storyline not because of who the girl chooses, but because of why and how. As I've also said before, I would also have been unhappy if Shallan took Adolin's out and ran into Kaladin's arms in a passionate embrace. That would have also felt false to me. This is a Shallan issue, and I'm getting very frustrated that our female fantasy character is getting diminished in the discourse into just a point of contention over what man a poster prefers. (Sorry if this sounds aggressive, but the way this topic and the opinions around it are being misinterpreted is majorly raising my feminist hackles.)

You'll note that I didn't call the people with this opinion "disingenuous" and that is a misreading of what I said.

[Dreamstorm]

Just now, Greywatch said:

You'll note that I didn't call the people with this opinion "disingenuous" and that is a misreading of what I said.

Ok, so you called my position (liking Adolin although I don't like the resolution of Shallan's romantic arc in OB) disengenuous... I will edit accordingly. But my point still stands that's it's not a disingenuous position for the reasons I stated (and which you ignored to clarify a technicality.)

[Greywatch she/her]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ok, so you called my position (liking Adolin although I don't like the resolution of Shallan's romantic arc in OB) disengenuous... I will edit accordingly. But my point still stands that's it's not a disingenuous position for the reasons I stated (and which you ignored to clarify a technicality.)

No, actually, I have no problem with finding Shallan's romantic arc in OB dissatisfying. My response could directly in response to FuzzyWordsmith, and I hope they don't mind me bringing this up further as I was satisfied with the end of our exchange, but I was saying that there isn't a meaningful difference between saying "Shallan and Kaladin should end up together" and "Shallan and Kaladin shouldn't be together now, but they should in the future" and saying they were two totally different statements was disingenuous; as the main gist of those statements is the same. I'm sorry you felt that was aimed at you, but it wasn't.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

Just as a tangential aside, but this thread just reached 666 posts, which I find hilarious, both because of the number and just the sheer size. We have outclassed the OB full book thread.

[Dreamstorm]

3 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

No, actually, I have no problem with finding Shallan's romantic arc in OB dissatisfying. My response could directly in response to FuzzyWordsmith, and I hope they don't mind me bringing this up further as I was satisfied with the end of our exchange, but I was saying that there isn't a meaningful difference between saying "Shallan and Kaladin should end up together" and "Shallan and Kaladin shouldn't be together now, but they should in the future" and saying they were two totally different statements was disingenuous; as the main gist of those statements is the same. I'm sorry you felt that was aimed at you, but it wasn't.

Ah, got it, I thought the disengenuous was tied to people saying, sure, Adolin's not that bad, but really I just want her to end up with Kaladin. (A continuation of what you said quoted below, I'm not fancy enough to know how to properly quote this, sorry.) But I do stand by the rest of my post!

Quote

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread.

 

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Just as a tangential aside, but this thread just reached 666 posts, which I find hilarious, both because of the number and just the sheer size. We have outclassed the OB full book thread.

People will gravitate towards conflict!  and it seems many of us were/are definitely conflicted about this issue and the implications going forward! I haven't actually posted in the forums in about 4 years but I was having so much trouble resolving the root of my discontent at finishing the book that it literally pushed me into digging up my username/password from the depths of email black hole in the hopes if finding a thread on this very topic. I needed to see if I was the only one who was crazy for feeling the way I did! 

[Greywatch she/her]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ah, got it, I thought the disengenuous was tied to people saying, sure, Adolin's not that bad, but really I just want her to end up with Kaladin. (A continuation of what you said quoted below, I'm not fancy enough to know how to properly quote this, sorry.) But I do stand by the rest of my post!

Yeah, and that's fair. We're all going to have our own preferences, and bring our own individual likes and wants into the experience. I don't like Shalladin, but I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love. I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that. It's not just "I really think Kaladin and Shallan have something", it's "I really think Kaladin and Shallan had something, and Brandon is making a mistake if he doesn't make my preferred ship canon, and Adolin is inferior to Kaladin for xyz reasons". And it's like...  boy, I just don't know. There's being hurt and upset that it didn't happen the way one hoped, but there are people with feelings on different sides of all of it.

[GoddessIMHO]

The "stars" of SA for now are Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin.  They obviously have the most character development.  Shallan has made progress and Adolin does give her some level of comfort.  We have seen nothing to indicate that getting married is going to cure her. I fully expect she will have further issues that she will have to face. It may well be that something like defending her child could be the defining moment.  Momma bear syndrome could turn her pretty kickass.

I hope K,A and S continue to be friends and fight together for Roshar. 

As for Adolin,  let's see: he is the equivalent of a West Point trained officer. Military tactics,  geography,  leadership and actual battle experience make him valuable in the field. He dramatically displays this in the TC battle. He thinks quickly on his feet and doesn't forget the Thalen foot soldiers. Even Kaladin thinks that Adolin has big picture of battle planning done. He is brave to a fault and leads men into battle, he doesn't send them into battle.  He understands how Kaladin could freeze in battle and saves him.

He is also a dandy when allowed to choose his own clothing.  Again,  it's Kaladin who thinks about the soldiers who mock Adolin not knowing he is arguably the best swordsman in Alethkar. Everyone has their thing.

He has been having serious thoughts about his own worth. He was raised to be Dalinar's golden boy. Pressure much?   Now he has to redefine who he is and what value he has for this new world.  He can't fly after all.

 

 

[Stormlightning she/her]

Hi. I'm just here to say wow, because this thread is always at the top of the OB list and I clearly underestimated the power of shipping because I've never really had any interest in this thread topic. But then again, I'm on the Shadolin ship and have never spent a moment on the Shaladin ship, and OB went right along with my thoughts on the matter.

Your passion for this topic impresses me.

Anyway. Carry on.

[Dreamstorm]

43 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, and that's fair. We're all going to have our own preferences, and bring our own individual likes and wants into the experience. I don't like Shalladin, but I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love. I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that. It's not just "I really think Kaladin and Shallan have something", it's "I really think Kaladin and Shallan had something, and Brandon is making a mistake if he doesn't make my preferred ship canon, and Adolin is inferior to Kaladin for xyz reasons". And it's like...  boy, I just don't know. There's being hurt and upset that it didn't happen the way one hoped, but there are people with feelings on different sides of all of it.

I totally get that. I’m very much a “I think the author is leading us in ‘x’ direction and this is why” type of person. (These are all fictional constructs of one person’s (incredible) imagination, so I feel like what he chooses to show us trumps all!) But I know others are more into emotional extrapolation and the like.

And if I’m honest, I’m also misdirecting my feelings regarding other posts I have seen on this forum (and not responded to though I’ve debated it - I don’t tend to be confrontational) regarding how anyone concerned with Shallan’s romantic resolution is just upset that Kaladin didn’t “win” the ship. The general sentiment I see (outside of this thread) is this is a “shipping war” issue rather than a “Shallan character development” issue, which frustrates me to no end, especially since I’ve come to view being satisfied with how Shallan “resolved” her fractured personality issues in OB as deeply anti-feminist (no worries, a female character can rely on a male character to sort out her issues and that’s totally cool.) So that is what is pushing my buttons and making me extra reactive!

Quote

Hi. I'm just here to say wow, because this thread is always at the top of the OB list and I clearly underestimated the power of shipping because I've never really had any interest in this thread topic. But then again, I'm on the Shadolin ship and have never spent a moment on the Shaladin ship, and OB went right along with my thoughts on the matter.

Your passion for this topic impresses me.

Anyway. Carry on.

Lol, I’m sorry to drag you into this @Stormlightning though I’m doing it anyway, but this is exactly the attitude I’m talking about. It’s not about shipping but being unsatisfied with the character development of your lead female character. (Extra reactively, check.)

Edited November 25, 2017 by Dreamstorm
Example of attitude given immediately before post was made

[Guest]

@Greywatch

I just want to chime in on a couple of points

First of all, feeling bad for geniune Adolin likers, who come into this thread. I'm sorry, but I'm a sarcastic person, that is who I am and, quite frankly, a little laugh has never hurt anyone. I don't hate Adolin's personality, but I hate character archetype he represents. I know, that he had hardships in his life, some I even can relate to (living with an alcoholic father in your teens, though, luckily, my father was a better man thab the Blackthorn), but they just seem so meaningless in relation to what Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar had gone through. Their backstories highly overshadow that of Adolin. I know, that Adolin is self-reflective, but that are many characters in this book, that does not make him unique. Anyway, my main criticism is, that Adolin just constantly gets what he wants without experiencing any hardship for it, this is not about his personality. I think, he often gets a free pass from the fandom, because of the standard arguments of him being oh so nice, compassionate and selfless. I just find him boring, because of it. Personal opinion: I hate that I feel, that it is a taboo to criticize Adolin, because I don't want to offend anyone when doing so, but many Adolin fans get so easily offended. A little distance would probably help. Which brings me to...

he is just a fictional character. It is not like I'm mocking your SO or a close brother. Besides, my favorite characters, both Shallan and Kaladin, constantly get flak, too, especially Shallan. I don't know why Adolin should get a free pass, because he is a forum favorite. If you haven't seen, I'm mocking Shallan too by the way.

Thirdly, since we're getting into personal opinion territory, why I dislike Shadolin.

1. Shallan and Adolin themselves. I don't know if someone enjoyed their meaningless flirting, but I certainly didn't. Waste of page time, just give them something meaningful to talk about and weave in the flirting.

2. I enjoy Kaladin and Shallan interacting. You don't have to enjoy the banter, but they have some of the best intercharacter chemistry in SLA and their conversation about how Chasmfiends kinda fly on the boat reflects that. I'm afraid we'll see even less of that. If it is going to be replaced by some more meaningless flirtations, I'm close to dropping the series. Whether you like it or not, Adolin is the wall between Shallan and Kaladin. Not his fault, but he is.

3. More a general point, but I didn't want Shallan to get married in the first place. She is just not ready for it.

Lastly, I hate that the marriage to Adolin diminishes her character so much. Like she is dependent on Adolin... She shouldn't.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[DeployParachute]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread.

 

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

You'll note that I didn't call the people with this opinion "disingenuous" and that is a misreading of what I said.

Don't know where you come from, but my understanding is that typically when someone used the phrase "wink wink, nudge nudge", they typically are implying that a person is being disingenuous.

Edited November 25, 2017 by DeployParachute

[insert_anagram_here]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, and that's fair. We're all going to have our own preferences, and bring our own individual likes and wants into the experience. I don't like Shalladin, but I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love. I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that. It's not just "I really think Kaladin and Shallan have something", it's "I really think Kaladin and Shallan had something, and Brandon is making a mistake if he doesn't make my preferred ship canon, and Adolin is inferior to Kaladin for xyz reasons". And it's like...  boy, I just don't know. There's being hurt and upset that it didn't happen the way one hoped, but there are people with feelings on different sides of all of it.

You say " I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love." but then "I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that." You are contradicting yourself.

But don't get me wrong @Greywatch I understand you. There is a nagging feeling that something is left unresolved. And we are all bothered and upset (maybe a little disturbed?) in here about it. Otherwise, we wouldn't have made this thread so heated in the first place. But that's just it. It's a discussion thread. We are here to point out our opinion, bringing arguments and express our feelings.

Logical arguments help, accusing people being disingenuous doesn't and certainly dismissing arguments as plain "shipping" is disrespectful. It's not just about wanting/supporting two individuals involved in a romantic relationship. It's not an irrational "want", the author clearly made this triangle obvious in the books and a lot of us are bothered (and if we're being really honest, upset) as to why he would do this in the first place.

 

So... How I personally rationalize the fact that "Sanderson placed this love triangle in the SA" would be either and/or one of these cases:

(a) he did this to boost sales without regarding proper character development. 

(b) It happened unintentionally on his part, as the character development grew astray from the chasm scene onward. Then he tried to tie it up with a marriage conclusion in OB.

(c) he places this intentionally as a character development point for Shallan only and the marriage is a conclusion in stability (or instability) for her.

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

I really want to believe it's this [(d)] but not an insignificant part of me thinks it is a combination of (b)+(c). That's the part who wants to avoid future disappointment and dissatisfaction. I wont' even consider (a), because that doesn't really sound like BS. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by DimChatz