[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[DeployParachute]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread.

 

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

You'll note that I didn't call the people with this opinion "disingenuous" and that is a misreading of what I said.

Don't know where you come from, but my understanding is that typically when someone used the phrase "wink wink, nudge nudge", they typically are implying that a person is being disingenuous.

Edited November 25, 2017 by DeployParachute

[insert_anagram_here]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, and that's fair. We're all going to have our own preferences, and bring our own individual likes and wants into the experience. I don't like Shalladin, but I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love. I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that. It's not just "I really think Kaladin and Shallan have something", it's "I really think Kaladin and Shallan had something, and Brandon is making a mistake if he doesn't make my preferred ship canon, and Adolin is inferior to Kaladin for xyz reasons". And it's like...  boy, I just don't know. There's being hurt and upset that it didn't happen the way one hoped, but there are people with feelings on different sides of all of it.

You say " I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love." but then "I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that." You are contradicting yourself.

But don't get me wrong @Greywatch I understand you. There is a nagging feeling that something is left unresolved. And we are all bothered and upset (maybe a little disturbed?) in here about it. Otherwise, we wouldn't have made this thread so heated in the first place. But that's just it. It's a discussion thread. We are here to point out our opinion, bringing arguments and express our feelings.

Logical arguments help, accusing people being disingenuous doesn't and certainly dismissing arguments as plain "shipping" is disrespectful. It's not just about wanting/supporting two individuals involved in a romantic relationship. It's not an irrational "want", the author clearly made this triangle obvious in the books and a lot of us are bothered (and if we're being really honest, upset) as to why he would do this in the first place.

 

So... How I personally rationalize the fact that "Sanderson placed this love triangle in the SA" would be either and/or one of these cases:

(a) he did this to boost sales without regarding proper character development. 

(b) It happened unintentionally on his part, as the character development grew astray from the chasm scene onward. Then he tried to tie it up with a marriage conclusion in OB.

(c) he places this intentionally as a character development point for Shallan only and the marriage is a conclusion in stability (or instability) for her.

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Info_Drone-0451]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

I really want to believe it's this [(d)] but not an insignificant part of me thinks it is a combination of (b)+(c). That's the part who wants to avoid future disappointment and dissatisfaction. I wont' even consider (a), because that doesn't really sound like BS. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by DimChatz

[Harbour]

Holy cow, there are two more pages. In before ill start reading them i should say that i wanted to listen again to some Disney classic songs.

And yeah, i totally got the Kaladin/Shallan/Fly Away together vibe listening to Aladdin (isn't that interesting name similarity) and Jasmine singing "A Whole New World" song. 

Quote

I can show you the world
Shining, shimmering splendid
Tell me, princess, now when did
You last let your heart decide!

Quote

Unbelievable sights
Indescribable feeling
Soaring, tumbling, freewheeling
Through an endless diamond sky
A whole new world

Needless to say that Kaladin dreamed to show Shallan how to really fly, and Shallan dreamed about Kaladin flying her to see the world better, just like the heroes of the Disney tale.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Harbour

[mariapapadia]

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, and that's fair. We're all going to have our own preferences, and bring our own individual likes and wants into the experience. I don't like Shalladin, but I would want everyone to feel welcome to love what they love. I get bothered (and if I'm being really honest, upset) that it doesn't get left at that. It's not just "I really think Kaladin and Shallan have something", it's "I really think Kaladin and Shallan had something, and Brandon is making a mistake if he doesn't make my preferred ship canon, and Adolin is inferior to Kaladin for xyz reasons". And it's like...  boy, I just don't know. There's being hurt and upset that it didn't happen the way one hoped, but there are people with feelings on different sides of all of it.

I feel bad in a way to reply, because so many people already jumped on you, but I also wanted to add some things. Personaly I like Kaladin and Adolin the same and Shallan is my favourite character between the three. If we were to talk what makes reading more exciting for me and I am sure for a lot of other people, I would gravitate towards a dynamic like Kaladin and Shallan, but if we are real here, I will always pick Adolin as a life partner. I feel like a lot of people find it fun to read about the broody,dark and passionate character and it's been romanticized a lot, but it real life it doesn't work at all. Anyway, my point is I would've been happy either way, because I pretty much like everyone and I am here for conflict and character development and I was sure this love triangle could've bring some interesting scenes. So I am not only "accepting Adolin, but preffering Kaladin". I genuinely like and can find strong arguments for both. 

Where Brandon did a mistake, or at least I think he did, was when he was obviously hinting at a love triangle that didn't have any conflict, confrontation, growth payout. As @Dreamstorm greatly summarized it a few pages back, all of this could've been skipped and it wouldn't hurt the story in any way. I really love Brandon's writing and I do think that the is incredible, but here he left a loopwhole that people can criticize him for. I feel like in general, a story is good when something is tied up so neatly, that removing anything from the story would hurt it and you couldn't imagine it without that certain element( character, plot, scene, fight etc) . In this case, Kaladin's conclusion about Shallan and how to be able to cope&smile, could've been achieved without him pining over her the whole book, the same goes for her conclusion about Adolin. So I don't really see the point of promise something and not comit to it. And I say this, because Brandon always has said the writer should be really careful when he makes promises to the reader.  If Adolin and Shallan were supposed to be endgame from the start I would've like to read something more powerful from them, I would've like to see their relationship go through some sort of difficulties, instead of being baited with Shallan/Kaladin. 

I don't want to point fingers at anyone, I do think everyone can twist and present things in a certain way, so they would fit their narrative, but if you look on the beginning pages of this thread, you will see a lot of people liking Adolin and complaining about the payout, because it didn't make sense for how the characters played in this book .

I did read your posts about Adolin and Shallan and I do agree, they could be great together, but I think at this point Shallan isn't there. You said how good Adolin is for Shallan and I totally agree that he can offer her a lot, but I don't see what she can bring to this relationship for him rigth now. I think Dalinar's and Evi's marriage is the best example. On paper you would say "Hey this is really good, she is so great for him and can offer him a lot of love, compassion, understanding" and all that. But we've seen how that turned out. I don't think Shallan is on the same level of brokeness as Blackthorn was, but she is troubled and right now, instead of being in a marriage that requires effort and selflessness, she should so some soul searching and reflect a bit on her problems. This is why I don't think them getting married was the right move. 

 

I've also seen a lot of people  complaining about how annoying, selfish, mean, classist Shallan is and I have to admit I think that was quite harsh and unfair. I feel most people forget that she's only 17, it's normal to be self absorbed at that age. It's not like she grew up in the perfect loving environment or had any examples of that. For how sheltered she was and all the trauma she got, I would say that being mean or classist sometimes are the least of her problems. 

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I've also seen a lot of people  complaining about how annoying, selfish, mean, classist Shallan is and I have to admit I think that was quite harsh and unfair. I feel most people forget that she's only 17, it's normal to be self absorbed at that age. It's not like she grew up in the perfect loving environment or had any examples of that. For how sheltered she was and all the trauma she got, I would say that being mean or classist sometimes are the least of her problems. 

Oh yeah, thank you for bringing up this point again.

That is another thing why I value the the chasm scene so much... In there, two very different people from very different backgrounds, who live in a world full of deeply rooted racism against each other, overcame this in a few hours by building respect. This has such a deep meaning. That even the most deeply rooted racism can be overcome by simply respecting each other.

I think, that Shallan fell back into her default behavior towards Kaladin to convince herself, that he is not the right one for her and to work against Veil, whenever she seeped through, because she only became this abrasive when Adolin was around. That is also why Kaladin was so confused. He thought that they were over that. And they were, but Shallan's emotional confusion reverted herself back to her default behavior and made her view Kaladin as 'just another darkeyes'.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

23 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I feel bad in a way to reply, because so many people already jumped on you, but I also wanted to add some things. Personaly I like Kaladin and Adolin the same and Shallan is my favourite character between the three. If we were to talk what makes reading more exciting for me and I am sure for a lot of other people, I would gravitate towards a dynamic like Kaladin and Shallan, but if we are real here, I will always pick Adolin as a life partner. I feel like a lot of people find it fun to read about the broody,dark and passionate character and it's been romanticized a lot, but it real life it doesn't work at all. Anyway, my point is I would've been happy either way, because I pretty much like everyone and I am here for conflict and character development and I was sure this love triangle could've bring some interesting scenes. So I am not only "accepting Adolin, but preffering Kaladin". I genuinely like and can find strong arguments for both. 

 

I think this is a reductionist misrepresentation of Kaladin's personality. He's someone whose attitudes towards the ongoing conflict and the classist society he's in, has been well-developed through the story. Both the "dark" and the "broody" traits are surface interpretations of his behaviour. 

And of course picking the rich, well-adjusted and good-looking elite as a life partner is the more logical thing to do, if only it were about logic. The biggest issue I personally had with the resolution of the triangle is the mental gymnastics it took Shallan to pick Adolin over Kaladin. It's not a criticism of Sanderson's writing, it's criticism of Shallan's personality. She could have gone with Adolin without referencing Veil's "terrible taste in men" and implying Kaladin was somehow bad.

Quote

In this case, Kaladin's conclusion about Shallan and how to be able to cope&smile, could've been achieved without him pining over her the whole book, the same goes for her conclusion about Adolin. So I don't really see the point of promising something and not comit to it. And I say this, because Brandon always has said the writer should be really careful when he makes promises to the reader.  If Adolin and Shallan were supposed to be endgame from the start I would've like to read something more powerful from them, I would've like to see their relationship go through some sort of difficulties, instead of being baited with Shallan/Kaladin. 

I don't think it parsed as pining for everyone. I don't think Kaladin would have accepted Shallan's advances even if she had a last-second change of heart. He's naturally suspicious of people without their changes in behaviour.

Quote

 

...

I've also seen a lot of people  complaining about how annoying, selfish, mean, classist Shallan is and I have to admit I think that was quite harsh and unfair. I feel most people forget that she's only 17, it's normal to be self absorbed at that age. It's not like she grew up in the perfect loving environment or had any examples of that. For how sheltered she was and all the trauma she got, I would say that being mean or classist sometimes are the least of her problems. 

 

It is not harsh and unfair to call out classism and bullying. She does need help with her own personal development, but it doesn't give her licence to hurt and belittle others.

Edited November 25, 2017 by straits
messed up the quoting

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, straits said:

I think this is a reductionist misrepresentation of Kaladin's personality. He's someone whose attitudes towards the ongoing conflict and the classist society he's in, has been well-developed through the story. Both the "dark" and the "broody" traits are surface interpretations of his behaviour. 

Yeah. In the first half of Oathbringer, he was actually pretty bright, I think. Hell, he even said, that he was happy with the man he was becoming. Imagine that, Kaladin admitting that he is happy. The failure in Kholinar really hit him hard, so I think his depressive episode is understandable.

[straits]

Just now, SLNC said:

Yeah. In the first half of Oathbringer, he was actually pretty bright, I think. Hell, he even said, that he was happy with the man he was becoming. Imagine that, Kaladin admitting that he is happy. The failure in Kholinar really hit him hard, so I think his depressive episode is understandable.

That's one example of the variation in his character. Circumstances make a personality, but in a world where he wasn't enslaved by supremacists, and did not have his friends/brother killed fighting someone else's war, he would probably not be "dark and brooding". It's evasive to make a judgement on his character based on his apparent traits, without considering why he is the way he is.

[mariapapadia]

24 minutes ago, straits said:

I think this is a reductionist misrepresentation of Kaladin's personality. He's someone whose attitudes towards the ongoing conflict and the classist society he's in, has been well-developed through the story. Both the "dark" and the "broody" traits are surface interpretations of his behaviour. 

And of course picking the rich, well-adjusted and good-looking elite as a life partner is the more logical thing to do, if only it were about logic. The biggest issue I personally had with the resolution of the triangle is the mental gymnastics it took Shallan to pick Adolin over Kaladin. It's not a criticism of Sanderson's writing, it's criticism of Shallan's personality. She could have gone with Adolin without referencing Veil's "terrible taste in men" and implying Kaladin was somehow bad.

 

Look, I have been one of the most vocal people from what I have seen, before the release of OB to say that reducing characters to tropes, especially in the case of Shallan and Kaladin's relationship is unfair, since the same can be easily done for Adolin. I am well aware that Kaladin is so much more than "dark" and "broody" and those traits are a product of his upbringing in that certain society, but for the purpose of the post, I chose not to go into full Kaladin characterization and chose two problematic traits that can be disscused when it comes to relationships. 

24 minutes ago, straits said:

It is not harsh and unfair to call out classism and bullying. She does need help with her own personal development, but it doesn't give her licence to hurt and belittle others.

I am not saying you can't call someone out, I just think is unfair to dissregard why she is like that give how she was brought up. She didn't have any examples and in a society where this is consider as normal, it would be unlikely for her not to regard those norms. She's been in the real world for a couple of months now and I am sure her opinions and attitude towards others will change, but you can't expect that to happen overnight, when she was brought up like that for 17 years. I am not saying to give her a pass, but that it's unfair to consider her a bad person because of that.

You're saying the exact thing about Kaladin, he is the way he is because of his hardships, why couldn't the same argument be made for Shallan?  Kaladin was broody, even before Tien's death and being enslaved. We see that from the beginning. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, straits said:

It is not harsh and unfair to call out classism and bullying. She does need help with her own personal development, but it doesn't give her licence to hurt and belittle others.

Well, if you say that you have to consider why Kaladin is like he is, you also have to consider, why Shallan is like she is, but like i said... I think she was over that already, but emotional confusion made her revert back to the default behavior she has always learned. I don't blame her, since I know that she can be better. Just as I don't blame Kaladin for having a depressive episode after Kholinar, since I also know that he can be better.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

2 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Look, I have been one of the most vocal people from what I have seen, before the release of OB to say that reducing characters to tropes, especially in the case of Shallan and Kaladin's relationship is unfair, since the same can be easily done for Adolin. I am well aware that Kaladin is so much more than "dark" and "broody" and those traits are a product of his upbringing in that certain society, but for the purpose of the post, I chose not to go into full Kaladin characterization and chose two problematic traits that can be disscused when it comes to relationships. 

I understand that. Oddly, I think that Shallan kind of chose not to go into Kaladin's full characterization, so that she could make a split-second decision on a relationship without worrying about intricacies. As SLNC said, she reverts back to default behaviour because it's easier for her, and this is a regression which hurts her, and not anyone else.

 

Quote

 

I am not saying you can't call someone out, I just think is unfair to dissregard why she is like that give how she was brought up. She didn't have any examples and in a society where this is consider as normal, it would be unlikely for her not to regard those norms. 

 

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Well, if you say that you have to consider why Kaladin is like he is, you also have to consider, why Shallan is like she is, but like i said... I think she was over that already, but emotional confusion made her revert back to the default behavior she has always learned. I don't blame her, since I know that she can be better.

 

I agree in both cases. I don't like her lack of maturity, but it's understandable and IMO good writing by the author.

However, there is one difference between the origin of their respective streams of consciousness. Shallan's current flaws are a bridge she will have to cross because in her society, she punches down, and someone of her intellect needs to realize that. Kaladin's reactions and resulting behaviours are more justified given consideration of their respective circumstances. This is probably out of scope of this discussion though, especially given how social norms are rapidly shifting with the reappearance of the KR and a global, unifying threat to sapient races of Roshar.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, straits said:

Oddly, I think that Shallan kind of chose not to go into Kaladin's full characterization, so that she could make a split-second decision on a relationship without worrying about intricacies.

True. That is also why I think she is in complete denial regarding her feelings for him, she only sees his faults, while she idolizes Adolin. Of course a much bigger indicator for that is her pushing off her feelings for Kaladin to Veil.

That said, being in denial is just another form of lying to yourself... The feelings aren't gone, I would be very surprised if they were.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

19 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

 

You're saying the exact thing about Kaladin, he is the way he is because of his hardships, why couldn't the same argument be made for Shallan?  Kaladin was broody, even before Tien's death and being enslaved. We see that from the beginning. 

Sure he was. He was also like 7 years old. I don't regard that a valid indicator of future personality.

That aside, the same argument is valid for Shallan's trauma, of course. The difference is that Kaladin doesn't judge Shallan the way she does him. He's ultimately fine with her choices without resorting to some pretty negative implications about her person.

Edited November 25, 2017 by straits
bolded for emphasis

[mariapapadia]

3 minutes ago, straits said:

Sure he was. He was also like 7 years old. I don't regard that a valid indicator of future personality.

That aside, the same argument is valid for Shallan's trauma, of course. The difference is that Kaladin doesn't judge Shallan the way she does him. He's ultimately fine with her choices without resorting to some pretty negative implications about her person.

Actually I think he was about 14-15 when we see that in him. The scene that comes to mind is the one with him, Laral and Tien, when they were looking for stones. That can be counted for adolescence and a pretty clear indicator of how his personality my evolve. It's true he was more lighthearted then and he was like that only sometimes, whereas in the present that is more or less his constant state as a result of what he went through. 

What are you saying?! Kaladin spends most of WoR judging and bein prejudiced towards Shallan because she's a lighteyes. Yes, in the end he comes to a resolution and he accepts that she's not that bad, but that doesn't change the fact he thought the worst of her and was treating her harsh. 

The way Shallan acts towards Kaladin, especially in OB I think is a result of her not wanting to accept her attraction to him and the fact he killed her brother. I know he doesn't hold that against him logically and it looks like she doesn't care that much, but I think in her subconcious it matters. Especially because she never adressed it, as far as we ve seen, and my belief is that if you don;t let something out, it will always be there nagging. 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

The way Shallan acts towards Kaladin, especially in OB I think is a result of her not wanting to accept her attraction to him and the fact he killed her brother. I know he doesn't hold that against him logically and it looks like she doesn't care that much, but I think in her subconcious it matters. Especially because she never adressed it, as far as we ve seen, and my belief is that if you don;t let something out, it will always be there nagging. 

 

Correct.

Regarding the broodyness: I think, that Kaladin as a person is a very contemplative person. He is actuely aware of the world around him and so thinks a lot about what is happening around him. That is not a bad personality trait per se, but it makes one vulnerable to be trapped in rumination, which is what happened when so many bad things happened to Kaladin in his life. Though I think, that he is getting better at it. I don't like the term broodyness, because it is so negatively contrived. Kaladin is contemplative, not really broody, but broodyness can be a result by being constantly contemplative about negative emotions.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

2 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Actually I think he was about 14-15 when we see that in him. The scene that comes to mind is the one with him, Laral and Tien, when they were looking for stones. That can be counted for adolescence and a pretty clear indicator of how his personality my evolve. It's true he was more lighthearted then and he was like that only sometimes, whereas in the present that is more or less his constant state as a result of what he went through. 

 

I was being hyperbolic. He was in his early teens, and joined the army at 14. I don't recall him being "dark and broody" so much as being a child who spent a little more time thinking than his peers did. And his life prior to being enslaved and seeing his brother die doesn't count as "not being subjected to the societal norms". He was subjected to them, and he just interpreted it differently at the time. And his adult personality (his more upbeat internal monologue in the beginning of OB) is an indicator that he wants to gravitate towards being less "dark and broody" in spite of his circumstances.

Quote

 

What are you saying?! Kaladin spends most of WoR judging and bein prejudiced towards Shallan because she's a lighteyes. Yes, in the end he comes to a resolution and he accepts that she's not that bad, but that doesn't change the fact he thought the worst of her and was treating her harsh. 

 

This is once again the difference between punching up and punching down. His "prejudice" towards her as a lighteyes is a defensive precaution against the elite class that subjugates darkeyes.

A lighteyes' prejudice towards a darkeyes, however, is that individual's prerogative. They are negotiating from a position of power, and the rules of engagement are up to them. This is basic social theory.

[analyticaposteriori]

6 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

Hi. I'm just here to say wow, because this thread is always at the top of the OB list and I clearly underestimated the power of shipping because I've never really had any interest in this thread topic. But then again, I'm on the Shadolin ship and have never spent a moment on the Shaladin ship, and OB went right along with my thoughts on the matter.

Your passion for this topic impresses me.

Anyway. Carry on.

Well for me personally it's less about shipping and more about the obvious structural problems OB created both for itself and retroactively for WoR.

I don't really care who ends up with whom (and I have zero problems with Adolin remaining the nicest guy on the block who somehow anchors the ridiculousness around him) but the writing should've been far stronger (without disregarding the previous plot threads and ignoring the ones that should've been explored) if this is truly the end of it. 

[PhineasGage]

WOW peeps. I am so impressed with this thread and every day it is just getting better.  Also, OMG, catching up my messages and this thread alone took me 3 hours. Real Life is starting to get in the way of my Sharding....

12 hours ago, Rainier said:

Clearly most people here don't like that idea, but then it seems like this thread is for the crew of the good ship Shalladin to grieve their loss (if @PhineasGage is captain, can I be boatswain?) . Given what we have at the end of Oathbringer, what else can we expect going forward? There's widespread agreement that Shallan is still lying to herself and is still in trouble of breaking her oaths (which for Lightweavers would be believing her lies), and that there was too much foreshadowing of Shalladin for it to end so abruptly. 

Captain?? Please no, I get lost if I go a few streets away to buy milk. I can't be trusted to steer or navigate or, you know, pretty much anything. I will volunteer to be ship's cat. How about that?

In keeping with the ship metaphor; in terms of what I get from the general sentiment on this thread is that those of us sailing on the 'good ship Shalladin', most of us rather feel that we were were sailing with a good tail wind into new waters but that we were going to end up at a land of plenty and promise. The end of Oathbringer has actually left us becalmed at sea (a la The Ancient Mariner) miles from shore and we're running out of drinking water. It isn't that we landed at the "Island of Adolin" which, whilst not where we thought we were heading is a rich and plentiful land with fantastic hair, it is that even the ship's lookout hasn't spotted land yet.

At this point, I think many, if not most of us would gladly give up on Shalladin if there was dry land ahead where we could at least re-stock, recuperate and reconnoitre before getting back on board and sailing into oblivion. At least that way we could go down with the ship with good memories. No-one want to die of thirst and sunburn.

12 hours ago, Rainier said:

So Shallan is married, but in trouble, with Kaladin still hanging around, and possibly a baby on the way. Nobody seems to expect divorce or adultery based on the character of the author, and partially based on the characters. However with Shallan separating into distinct personalities, I could definitely see Veil wanting to pursue Kaladin, while Radiant sees it as her duty to provide a child and an heir, with our broken Shallan moping about how horrible a mother she'll be.

Wow this is depressing line of thought. I really hope that adultery isn't going to happen, it would really upset me that Kaladin could betray Adolin like that after he's managed to get over his prejudice against him. Kaladin is a better man than that. On the other hand, I'd forgive Adolin for straying if Shallan is being.... 'difficult' because he could end up in a really tragic situation. I'd forgive Shallan herself because it isn't her fault if she is unwell. 

11 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Still got roughly 2 years, maybe I'll be able to accept it by then.

Not me, without further information I fully expect to remain on this ship and go mad with thirst. (I am seriously hoping for WoB or another book like Edgedancer to give us more info to go on).

8 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Like I said, I still trust him as an author. I just hope he doesn't let so much bias bleed into his work that a teenager getting married and having a baby magically solves major mental health issues

I agree - I really can't see him doing this. Motherhood is something often viewed as inevitable for women - and it is a societal given that all women must like babies. HAve you ever seen a baby? They are pretty gross. Children don;t really get interesting until they are probably about 4 or 5 when they can at least do the basics for themselves and can actually start to think like actual humans rather than slightly clever and talkative dogs. Seriously though, the whole thing of "the best thing I've achieved is having children" idea is ridiculous - having a child may be very rewarding, but it is hardly an achievement. Anyone can have kids - jellyfish have offspring for goodness sake. A Nobel prize is an achievement, a degree is an achievement. Storms, getting an A at school is an achievement. Having kids.... not so much - raising them on the other hand is - which is probably why so many people make a mess of it.

8 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I realize that  others differ in the way they deal with things and that doesn't necessarily mean my way is right all the time or vice versa. This is just one of those personal pet peeves of mine. And it does drive me nuts that she views Adolin less as a equal and support then as a knight in shining armor come to give her a fairy tale ever after and fix all her problems. It will seriously bug me if this is the resolution ....but distilling this thread down makes me think it's not so... holds breath for next 2 years.

I understand where you are coming from, and certainly confronting issues is the more healthy way of handling things. The problem for Shallan is that she has never learned how to really. It is implied that her early childhood was horrific (she had progressed as a surgebinder quite far according to WoB before she killed her mother). This sets up all kinds of possibilities for poor coping mechanisms including mentally putting ones head in the sand. Indeed, putting your head in the sand is probably an easy option to learn when a kid is very small because they lack the understanding, language and self-awareness to do much else. In Shallan's case, she probably had so many knocks that she never got the opportunity to learn to do anything else. 

8 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

Yeah it's easy to bash on him but I don't think anyone (could be wrong) on this thread actually dislikes him. I actually have a feeling that he is getting set up to get absolutely squished. (Whether he breaks enough for a nahel bond or not we will see- I could go either way) But being a side character I think we are going to see his arc develop much slower than our mains. 

True, true. I quite like him staying as a side and light character - he offers a normalcy we get from very few other PoV characters. I'd be sorry to lose that.

8 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I actually want to see him interact with Gavinor. I think he would be a great dad. It would be funny too to see Kaladin interact with Gavinor...trying to picture 'take your nephew/ ward to work day'... 

I flip flop on him being a good dad. Most of the time I'm like 'of course Adlin would be a good dad - he interacts so naturally with people'. Then I read people talking about how tragic his own childhood was (it wasn't all sunshine and roses, but I don't think it was as bad as people suggest and it certainly wasn't as bad as Renarin's) and wonder if this means he might be a terrible father figure. I suppose we'll just have to see. 

8 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

Can you imagine the confusion that child would  face when her mom can't decide who to be that day? Or that moment? And oh yeah...the end of the world....

Ok, for the purposes of this I am going to name the child Frank. Because you can't stop me:

Frank: Mom, can I go outside and play?

Shallan: Sure Frankie, just don't go too far from the house.

Frank: But, mom, I want to go and watch the flying men.

Veil: Oh, well that's fine. Actually I might come with you.

Frank: MOM, you told daddy that you weren't going to do that anymore.

Radiant: So I did. Well in that case you can just stay here and learn your sword stances properly. You still aren't getting Vinestance right.

Frank: Mom..........

8 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

And marriage isn't solely about making kids. In Alethi culture with the divided and distinct roles Adolin would very much benefit from having a wife in his role as high prince. 

This is a very good point actually. Marriage is almost a necessity for Vorin men because how are they supposed to interact with others at a distance without being able to read and write.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I completely agree. I feel bad for people coming into this thread who genuinely like Adolin.

Really? You realise that there are very few places on this forum where it is ok to not think Adolin is God's gift right? It isn't even possible to have a rational conversation about his flaws without the heroworshippers getting on your case sometimes. I am not suggesting that it is right to ostracize someone for their opinion - quite the reverse, but most of us are here a lot because there is no other thread that allows us to say things like "Adolin Kholin bores me to tears". On top of that, most of us have become more anti Adolin as a result of the community than because of how we felt about him in the books. 

After a while of being able to vent here, I generally end up feeling more pro-Adolin, though not pro Shadolin (which as has been pointed out is mostly because of the perceived issues with Shallan, not Adolin himself). It is ok to not like a ship whilst still liking the character.

On top of that I really feel that you have summarised the whole thread as being one about supporting the Shalladin ship despite everything, which is disingenuous because it is very clear that the vast majority of us, and I'd even go so far as to say everyone who is regularly posting here now, is not what we've been saying at all.

Anyone is welcome here to come and tell us they love Adolin and why they love him. They can come and support their ship with canon evidence. They likely won't convert many of us here because we've already read the evidence and come down on the Shalladin side, but they can discuss their perspective. There is, however, a large body of people in the SA reading community who simply like Adolin better and ship Shadolin for that reason. Its fine to do that, but it isn't something that can be discussed in any way because it is based purely on personal preference. If they come here with an interpretation of a scene, and can rationalise something from it that supports Shadolin using the tricks that we know BS uses as a writer (eg foreshadowing) then we will listen, debate and likely respect that person for it. I am here for the intellectual discussion personally and I don't see why I should have to be nice to Adolin simply because it might hurt someone's feelings. He isn't a real person.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I liked that his story was about stepping back and being extremely self-reflective - I think it's something he's needed to do a lot in the past couple books, and I was glad to see him get it.

This is the kind of thing I'm getting at. Adolin is not "extremely self refective". He's alright. He does it a bit but nothing out of the ordinary in my opinion. If you are going to say this kind of thing we want evidence. Give me something I can get my teeth into. As a percentage of time in Adolin's PoV, how much time does he actually spend analysing his own behavior? What are some example of his actions that show he is reflecting and learning? In comparison with other characters is he doing it more or less frequently?

I am prepared to believe I am wrong about Adolin being "extremely self reflective" but I am saying that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I say Adolin is normal. This is not an extraordinary claim - basically by definition. Yet no-one who supports Adolin is prepared to provide sufficient evidence to make me change my mind. 

In contrast, I read through and briefly participated in the Maya thread on this forum. I was not mad on the idea that he would be an edgedancer but there is a good body of evidence regarding things about his behavior that does lead me to conclude that it is a likely outcome. I may not like it, but the evidence is there. So I changed my position. I think most people here are exactly the same.

6 hours ago, Greywatch said:

My post was about the dismissal of Adolin as an unworthy or bad option for Shallan.

Ok, so I'm a little lost here, because at least from my perspective this is the opposite of the general consensus of this thread. We think it is bad for both of them, but more that Shallan is not currently worthy of Adolin (most of us think she chose him for the wrong reasons). Most of us like Kaladin as an option better - but not at this point. Whether or not we have vague hopes for the future is moot because we have no evidence that it will happen.

I could still like Harry/Hermione better than Ron/Hermione (Cursed Child aside) but as the books are finished I simply have to cope with the idea that my preferred outcome didn't happen. That doesn't make my preference any less valid. We haven't finished SA so, unlike that scenario, we are still free to consider possible ways for Shalladin to happen and use canon evidence to back it up. Just because we don't lean in one direction doesn't mean we dismiss Adolin as a valuable character, it means we dismiss him as the better partner for Shallan. Not likeing a character doesn't make them valueless. Sadeas had great value, but I think there are very people who liked him. 

Anyone who places Adolin's value solely in the light of his romantic arc with Shallan is doing him a disservice.

6 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I was saying that there isn't a meaningful difference between saying "Shallan and Kaladin should end up together" and "Shallan and Kaladin shouldn't be together now, but they should in the future" and saying they were two totally different statements was disingenuous

I disagree. They can be different. You are ignoring the idea of character development. The "in the future" statement inherently relies on the characters taking a particular path. If they don't follow it, then their development will be so different as to make the idea that they should be together laughable. This is the core of the argument of Shadolin vs Shalladin. 

Most of us on the Shalladin side feel that, if Shallan and Kaladin continue in the direction they they both been heading, then they should end up together - this is based on how we have interoreted the foreshadowing and mutual understanding. If however, one or both of them deviate, then Shalladin probably won't happen.

Now I know I am probably going to come off as being very antagonistic at this stage, but I am genuinely sick of being told that we have to be nice to the Adolin-lovers out there, but nothing is being done to stop them from attacking us for not thinking he is the bees knees. People need to stop being such snowflakes about fictional characters. 

@SLNC I agree with everything you said in your post, on this subject as well.

 

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

I've also seen a lot of people  complaining about how annoying, selfish, mean, classist Shallan is and I have to admit I think that was quite harsh and unfair. I feel most people forget that she's only 17, it's normal to be self absorbed at that age. It's not like she grew up in the perfect loving environment or had any examples of that. For how sheltered she was and all the trauma she got, I would say that being mean or classist sometimes are the least of her problems. 

I agree with your point to an extent, but I kinda want to come down in the middle of this argument. 

Shallan is capable of being a much better person than we often see her be. I think this is partly why people judge her harshly. She has had very few advantages when it comes to behaving well, so I think it is fair to excuse her to an extent, but she also calls people (eg Kaladin) out when their behaviour is equally bad, so she does know it is wrong. I think that because she is young, she doesn't necessarily see the hypocrisy she is occasionally guilty of (well we've all been there) so that makes her situation understandable, but it doesn't mean we have to condone it.

I do agree though that she needs to sort out who she is before she can consider dealing with how she manages societal norms!

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I think, that Shallan fell back into her default behavior towards Kaladin to convince herself, that he is not the right one for her and to work against Veil, whenever she seeped through, because she only became this abrasive when Adolin was around. That is also why Kaladin was so confused. He thought that they were over that. And they were, but Shallan's emotional confusion reverted herself back to her default behavior and made her view Kaladin as 'just another darkeyes'

I agree she kind of defaulted, but I am not convinced this her true default behavior. She is much nicer to the sailors on the Wind's Pleasure. I think she is "pulling a Dalinar" and trying to persuade herself and everyone around her that there aren't any feelings for Kaladin there. Definitely not, No Siree. Nothing to see here, move along.....

1 hour ago, straits said:

I don't think it parsed as pining for everyone. I don't think Kaladin would have accepted Shallan's advances even if she had a last-second change of heart. He's naturally suspicious of people without their changes in behaviour.

I agree that he's have slower on the uptake than Adolin, though I personally wouldn't categorise it as suspicious in this setting. I think Kaladin being a natural self-critic would probably be more inclined to not believe that she was actually being serious and she'd have had to work much harder to convince him. He also likely would have put up road bocks like "er the end of the world is going on" and "I'm never going to be here because....Windrunner" or "hello, I'm darkeyed and you're 4th dahn" etc

I think this is why he settles into acceptance here so easily. He probably never really considered it an option - more like a fantasy that was fun while it lasted. I mean, everything in his life has not ended up as he thought, why would this be any different?

1 hour ago, straits said:

That's one example of the variation in his character. Circumstances make a personality, but in a world where he wasn't enslaved by supremacists, and did not have his friends/brother killed fighting someone else's war, he would probably not be "dark and brooding".

Personally I'm not so certain. I think Kaladin is pretty introverted and inclined to navel-gazing. Thats part of his core personality to my mind - his depression is a consequence of his experiences and the way his personality makes him handle his stresses. Also, given that he developed depression as an adolescent is indicative of it being part of his core personality (it could be called endogenous). If he'd struggled later in life it would be more likely the direct result of a life changing event.

39 minutes ago, straits said:

This is probably out of scope of this discussion though, especially given how social norms are rapidly shifting with the reappearance of the KR and a global, unifying threat to sapient races of Roshar

Oh no, please continue. I know this is the A/S/K thread but the great thing about shipping is that you can tie almost anything to it.  The more varied the discussion the better imo.

40 minutes ago, straits said:

I understand that. Oddly, I think that Shallan kind of chose not to go into Kaladin's full characterization, so that she could make a split-second decision on a relationship without worrying about intricacies. As SLNC said, she reverts back to default behaviour because it's easier for her, and this is a regression which hurts her, and not anyone else.

Excellent point. Have an upvote.

6 minutes ago, straits said:

I was being hyperbolic. He was in his early teens, and joined the army at 14. I don't recall him being "dark and broody" so much as being a child who spent a little more time thinking than his peers did. And his life prior to being enslaved and seeing his brother die doesn't count as "not being subjected to the societal norms". He was subjected to them, and he just interpreted it differently at the time. And his adult personality (his more upbeat internal monologue in the beginning of OB) is an indicator that he wants to gravitate towards being less "dark and broody" in spite of his circumstances.

I do agree he is learning. It takes time to overcome personality flaws though. I am please to see him trying which is a huge step from where he was before.

@Stormlightning I'd personally like to hear your reasons for being on the SS Shadolin. If you don't feel comfortable airing them here. feel free to PM me.

10 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Well for me personally it's less about shipping and more about the obvious structural problems OB created both for itself and retroactively for WoR.

I don't really care who ends up with whom (and I have zero problems with Adolin remaining the nicest guy on the block who somehow anchors the ridiculousness around him) but the writing should've been far stronger (without disregarding the previous plot threads and ignoring the ones that should've been explored) if this is truly the end of it. 

Yes, very much this. To me, this is the best evidence for Shalladin and the strongest case against Shadolin. Why tease us for 2 books if this is where we end up? I am on SS Shalladin as the proud ships's cat though so I am a little (*cough*) biased.

[Guest]

A thing, that confuses me quite a bit... There is this WoB

Quote

Questioner

Where did the idea to split The Way of Kings and to make it take place in multiple places come from?

Brandon Sanderson

The Way of Kings taking place with the different timelines? So Way of Kings I wrote, the very first version of it--in its contemporary form, I wrote the first book about Dalinar when I was a teenager--but the very first book called The Way of Kings I wrote in 2002 and I tried to cram way too much into that book. The big failing of that book was I tried to do everyone's story at once. And so when I re-wrote it in 2009, or whenever it was, I decided I would take the characters and spread them out across the 10 book series and I would focus on a certain set of them early on and then transition into other ones. But in order to maintain some of the complexity I like in my books, particularly big epic fantasies, I added in the flashback sequence, one per character per book as a means to adding some depth and complexity but using it to build up a character you already knew, rather than doing someone completely different. And so this kind of allowed me to tell the story the way I wanted to, by doing-- That did mean I still had to have two separate timelines because I needed to do Shallan and I needed to do Kaladin, 'cause I knew they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books. Which did put me in two different places but that was much better than the six different places the original had. And it's just because I like complexity, I like a book that everything comes together at once.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7080

I... really don't see much of that interaction to be honest... Aside from the chasm sequence... Especially Oathbringer really toned this down, hell, it didn't even have the trip to TC to open the Oathgate, and the way it looks like atm they will be even more distant than before, you know with the thing Veil has for Kaladin and I suspect, that their relationship will default to a completely professional thing on Kaladin's side, where they only interact when they have to. Isn't that a bit... different from what Brandon said there?

I mean, I get their importance to the plot, but interaction?

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

A thing, that confuses me quite a bit... There is this WoB

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7080

I... really don't see much of that interaction to be honest... Aside from the chasm sequence... Especially Oathbringer really toned this down and the way it looks like atm they will be even more distant than before, you know with the thing Veil has for Kaladin and I suspect, that their relationship will default to a completely professional thing on Kaladin's side, where they only interact when they have to. Isn't that a bit... different from what Brandon said there?

Well, I see where you are going but put it like this, we see almost every interaction they have. There is not a huge amount of interaction between them that happens off screen. This is a good contrast to Adolin and Shallan who spend a lot of time off screen together. I mean, we don't even see their wedding. 

From a writer's perspective, it s the scenes they write that matter more than the behind the scenes action. The "invisible book" of Adolin and Shallan's dates for example, are not important interactions in Brandon's mind - at least regarding the story arc as a whole so we don't get to watch them. On the other hand, with two notable exceptions (i.e the walk back from the chasms after the high storm and opening the oathgate in Thaylenah) we see even tiny moments of interaction between Kaladin and Shallan. Those exceptions are interesting because it should be a situation where they interact with much less conflict and also a greater understanding of each other. Indeed, Kaladin lies to Dalinar about the chasmfiend after meeting Shallan's eyes for a moment when they get back from the chasms.

What did they talk about? Oh it probably wasn't interesting to be honest but it also clearly wasn't about pretending that Kaladin didn't kill a chasmfiend almost single handed with Shallan's shardblade and scheming about what they were going to tell people about the highstorm.

The flight to Thaylenah was less interesting though - and perhaps an indication where he is eventually heading. Why don't we ever see either of them think about it? Shallan never even thinks about flying as amazing from what I remember? I mean seriously? Who goes flying across half a continent then forgets it even happened? Kaladin doesn't seem to think about it much either, but it can't have gone poorly or he'd definitely have thought about that. 

BS actually goes out of his way to put them in situations together where there is no specific reason to have them there. Was there a reason Shallan was better than Renarin for going to Thaylenah? Why even have the chasm sequence? Why have them meet before she gets to the Shattered Plains then  have a massive argument when she arrives? Why have them attempt to infiltrate the Palace at Kholinar together? Why have Kaladin guard them on the way to the menagerie (he could easily have found out about the plan for the duel with Sadeas any other number of ways)? What about how they both think about each other at odd moments without anything specific setting them off? I could go on.

We could so easily have more of Adolin - especially more of Adolin/Shallan in WoR and have them start off being annoying/nauseating etc but then get to a point where there is genuine understanding between them. Why not send him into the chasm instead, or have Shallan and Adolin have more poignant moments at the end of WoR or OB (eg have him go and get her from the field rather than Jasnah). 

The thing that upsets me most about that WoB though, is that it implies that the SS Shalladin is truly dead in the water - I mean, they can't progress as a ship if they do stop interacting now ("interacting together for the next few books"). On the other hand it could imply that they will stop being an interesting relationship to write about by the ends of SA5. That may mean SS Shalladin is alive and well, but I for one am not feeling too hopeful after "Without you I fade".

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

The thing that upsets me most about that WoB though, is that it implies that the SS Shalladin is truly dead in the water - I mean, they can't progress as a ship if they do stop interacting now ("interacting together for the next few books"). On the other hand it could imply that they will stop being an interesting relationship to write about by the ends of SA5. That may mean SS Shalladin is alive and well, but I for one am not feeling too hopeful after "Without you I fade".

But then we come back to to the problem, that Kaladin was basically used as a plot device and all of Kaladin's and Shallan's interaction was used to assert Adolin's position on Shallan's side, which is just... Wow. That would be quite much to make the choice of having these two seperately progressing storylines in TWoK for a romance subplot, which leaves the most more characterized person of the two choices as the third wheel??

The funny thing is, that Shallan and Kaladin are both Radiants and almost do no Radiant stuff together. Whenever there is something big going down, they are separated...

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But then we come back to to the problem, that Kaladin was basically used as a plot device and all of Kaladin's and Shallan's interaction was used to assert Adolin's position on Shallan's side, which is just... Wow. That would be quite much to make the choice of having these two seperately progressing storylines in TWoK for a romance subplot, which leaves the most more characterized person of the two as the third wheel??..

True.... it would be very concerning. When you put it like that, I just can't see it happening that way - I mean, Sanderson doesn't normally foreshadow for no reason and he rarely uses "red herrings". When he does use them, their use is very temporary. When I re-read the Mistborn series I was struck with how layered the indication of the eventual outcome were. Sanderson has improved as a write since then, so I cannot see how that could even be a thing.

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The funny thing is, that Shallan and Kaladin are both Radiants and almost do no Radiant stuff together. Whenever there is something big going down, they are separated...

This works for me. They are supposed to put strength before weakness etc. I think this might reflect the fact that they need to stand alone and grow independently before they can truly suceed in progressing as KR. I am not certain that it is specifically related to their respective ships at the moment. I am happy to discuss that point though - does anyone have any strong feelings on the matter?

[Guest]

Just now, PhineasGage said:

This works for me. They are supposed to put strength before weakness etc. I think this might reflect the fact that they need to stand alone and grow independently before they can truly suceed in progressing as KR. I am not certain that it is specifically related to their respective ships at the moment. I am happy to discuss that point though - does anyone have any strong feelings on the matter?

Oh, no I don't think that it is related to any romantic subplotting... It was just something, that I haven't expected I guess. I just expected more jolly old cooperation, I think, but everyone always seems to do his own thing.

[Starla]

Wow you guys are prolific. There is a lot I want to respond to it's hard to keep track of it all. @PhineasGage I am highly impressed with your ability to multi-quote and respond to so many people! 

I’ll focus on this for now:

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So... How I personally rationalize the fact that "Sanderson placed this love triangle in the SA" would be either and/or one of these cases:

(a) he did this to boost sales without regarding proper character development. 

(b) It happened unintentionally on his part, as the character development grew astray from the chasm scene onward. Then he tried to tie it up with a marriage conclusion in OB.

(c) he places this intentionally as a character development point for Shallan only and the marriage is a conclusion in stability (or instability) for her.

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

@insert_anagram_here Thank you for listing these out. The authorial intent of this particular storyline is something I've been considering and struggling with. Unfortunately, I think the answer is C. The reason being: if you look at the reactions of the majority of readers, (those outside this thread and on reddit and other places), they seem to feel this particular storyline has come to a satisfying conclusion. They feel that Shallan has gotten better by the end of the book and that the marriage is good for her. Combine this with the romance plots in Brandon's other books, and it feels like a familiar conclusion to a sub-plot used to highlight and resolve a particular character’s weakness or dilemma.

Many have brought up the Mistborn triangle. Heroine meets and is instantly attracted to handsome, charming guy from prominent noble house. Heroine later meets dark, broody “bad" guy and is tempted by a certain mystery and freedom he represents. Heroine is confronted with conflicting feelings within herself and must make a choice between happy and stable or dangerous and free. Heroine chooses happy and stable, they get married, are super awesome together, and save the world. Flowers grow. The end.

Perhaps there is more to it than that and I will be pleasantly surprised in future books if Shallan is not miraculously healed by a relationship. But at this point it looks like a completed plot to me. I hope to see her become her full awesome self, but I think that will happen through her marriage rather than through her own individual growth as a character. As a reader who loves super strong female characters, it feels like an unsatisfying conclusion, but it happens sometimes. Fortunately there are tons of other storylines in SA that are fully satisfying and rewarding. I am in awe of Brandon's genius in worldbuilding, lore, magic, and those are the areas where Stormlight really shines. 

Like several others have pointed out, my issues here are related to Shallan’s character development rather than shipping. I’m not on team Shadolin or Shalladin, but rather on Team “Shallan being awesome."  If there were a Shallan character thread, I would post my thoughts there.

7 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

Hi. I'm just here to say wow, because this thread is always at the top of the OB list and I clearly underestimated the power of shipping because I've never really had any interest in this thread topic. But then again, I'm on the Shadolin ship and have never spent a moment on the Shaladin ship, and OB went right along with my thoughts on the matter.

@Stormlightning I would be curious to hear your thoughts on Shallan's character growth throughout Oathgringer. Do you feel that she progressed or regressed in her mental health and in her development as a radiant by the end? Do you feel that she is healthy enough to enter into a long-term relationship? Do you think her marriage will help resolve her identity issues? Is she closer to saying her next ideal/truth? I would love to hear from more folks who are happy with her progress this book.