[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

13 minutes ago, Starla said:

The authorial intent of this particular storyline is something I've been considering and struggling with. Unfortunately, I think the answer is C. The reason being: if you look at the reactions of the majority of readers, (those outside this thread and on reddit and other places), they seem to feel this particular storyline has come to a satisfying conclusion. They feel that Shallan has gotten better by the end of the book and that the marriage is good for her. Combine this with the romance plots in Brandon's other books, and it feels like a familiar conclusion to a sub-plot used to highlight and resolve a particular character’s weakness or dilemma.

Many have brought up the Mistborn triangle. Heroine meets and is instantly attracted to handsome, charming guy from prominent noble house. Heroine later meets dark, broody “bad" guy and is tempted by a certain mystery and freedom he represents. Heroine is confronted with conflicting feelings within herself and must make a choice between happy and stable or dangerous and free. Heroine chooses happy and stable, they get married, are super awesome together, and save the world. Flowers grow. The end.

Perhaps there is more to it than that and I will be pleasantly surprised in future books if Shallan is not miraculously healed by a relationship. But at this point it looks like a completed plot to me. I hope to see her become her full awesome self, but I think that will happen through her marriage rather than through her own individual growth as a character. As a reader who loves super strong female characters, it feels like an unsatisfying conclusion, but it happens sometimes.

I agree with all of it, and I’m realizing Shallan’s romantic arc, if it is concluded like you note, primarily bothers me for two (very different) reasons:

(1) Morally/emotionally: Our lead female character, who has been built up as being on a journey of independence and self-sufficiency becoming a women who needs a man to discover her real self and prop her up. Beyond being unsatisfying, it actually makes me a little ill. In Mistborn, Vin didn’t lose herself and her identity in her marriage, so while I don’t think that romance was particularly well-written, it was not completely anti-feminist. When it comes to the fans who are totally OK with this being Shallan’s romantic conclusion, what is that saying - women should look for a man to prop them up rather than solving their problems on their own? Men should be that role for women (and it goes hand in hand with causally subjugating women because they are too “weak” to stand on their own)? The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I knew fantasy literature had a sexism problem, and I guess this is that problem smacking me in the head. 

(2) Literary plotting: I’m not worked up over this one, but unlike in Mistborn where our “bad guy” was a side character who existed for one book, we are talking about uselessly involving our main character. That seems like really poor writing and character development for our main character. (Not to mention a waste of page time.) I want to think there is some bigger payoff for Kaladin around the arc (whether romantic with Shallan or not) or else it is a big writing misstep. Also, Mistborn bad guy was, well, actually bad. Not so in our case, and weird to reduce our main character to that role in the triangle. 

(2) I will absolutely be able to overlook. (1) I’m really not sure.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Saying that a hubby makes everything better is like telling a critically depressed person it's OK to keep a loaded gun in the house.

Exactly.

I've said this before and I'll say it again and again, I have tried to help a depressive man (my father) to get through it with love and understanding. The result was an almost ruined family, an almost ruined future and depressive episodes for myself and suicidal tendencies in my father. Until he chose to get some therapy.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

20 minutes ago, SLNC said:

storm. i really hope this is not the case. On reddit someone posted how touched they were by Shallan's arc in Oathbringer, because how they could relate to it by suffering from a similar condition. This would send such a bad picture to those people... Like not finding professional help and showing that a romantic relationship with a nice helpful guy or girl can solve the problem? It is great when an author touches real world issues and reflects them in their characters, but do your research right, which I think Brandon actually does a good job of, and never send false messages in regards to the solution of the problem.

I agree this is massively worrisome - even if it is reversed in a future book, we have years with many people (including some impressionable people, like you note) thinking Shallan’s solution is a healthy solution. I think that’s dangerous, even if rectified in a later book. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I agree this is massively worrisome - even if it is reversed in a prior book, we have years with many people (including some impressionable people, like you note) thinking Shallan’s solution is a healthy solution. I think that’s dangerous, even if rectified in a later book. 

What I find equally disturbing is that he has shown the correct way of tackling the problem in chapter 82 and Shallan in the end does the complete opposite... and yet most think, that she is doing the right thing?!?!

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[FuzzyWordsmith]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

What I find equally disturbing is that he has shown the correct way of tackling the problem in chapter 82 and Shallan in the end does the complete opposite...

Yeah, this makes me further not understand how anyone considered this a healthy conclusion. We literally see the proper way of handling this and people seem to completely ignore that and consider the ending a proper resolution. It makes no sense to me.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

53 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

F

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Shallan is capable of being a much better person than we often see her be. I think this is partly why people judge her harshly. She has had very few advantages when it comes to behaving well, so I think it is fair to excuse her to an extent, but she also calls people (eg Kaladin) out when their behaviour is equally bad, so she does know it is wrong. I think that because she is young, she doesn't necessarily see the hypocrisy she is occasionally guilty of (well we've all been there) so that makes her situation understandable, but it doesn't mean we have to condone it.

I agree to a certain extent. Shallan was raised in a home situation where inherently knowing right from wrong would be a difficult concept to practice. However, we have plenty of examples of her treating others by of her class/station with respect and dignity. Tyn was dark eyed, the dark eyed street vendor she over paid for food and directions, Sebarial's camp, Yalb the sailor .... my point being she knows how to act...which makes her reductionist and belittling statements to/about Kaladin most certainly intentional.

Which isn't to say she doesn't have reasons for regressing into such behavior as others have brought out. I'm only saying that personality wars aside and reasons for her actions aside she Is aware of the space her comments/actions create. 

 

In keeping with the ship metaphor; in terms of what I get from the general sentiment on this thread is that those of us sailing on the 'good ship Shalladin', most of us rather feel that we were were sailing with a good tail wind into new waters but that we were going to end up at a land of plenty and promise. The end of Oathbringer has actually left us becalmed at sea (a la The Ancient Mariner) miles from shore and we're running out of drinking water. It isn't that we landed at the "Island of Adolin" which, whilst not where we thought we were heading is a rich and plentiful land with fantastic hair, it is that even the ship's lookout hasn't spotted land yet.

At this point, I think many, if not most of us would gladly give up on Shalladin if there was dry land ahead where we could at least re-stock, recuperate and reconnoitre before getting back on board and sailing into oblivion. At least that way we could go down with the ship with good memories. No-one want to die of thirst and sunburn.

So this whole thing just cracked me up - have an upvote!

 

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree - I really can't see him doing this. Motherhood is something often viewed as inevitable for women - and it is a societal given that all women must like babies. HAve you ever seen a baby? They are pretty gross. Children don;t really get interesting until they are probably about 4 or 5 when they can at least do the basics for themselves and can actually start to think like actual humans rather than slightly clever and talkative dogs. Seriously though, the whole thing of "the best thing I've achieved is having children" idea is ridiculous - having a child may be very rewarding, but it is hardly an achievement. Anyone can have kids - jellyfish have offspring for goodness sake. A Nobel prize is an achievement, a degree is an achievement. Storms, getting an A at school is an achievement. Having kids.... not so much - raising them on the other hand is - which is probably why so many people make a mess of it.

Ok so I'm going to have to play devils advocate on this despite agreeing  whole heartedly with the sentiment that Shallan REALLY doesn't need to be a mom right now. Motherhood is not inevitable for all women. I know several who are perfectly content and complete without ever having kids. It is however a societal norm....the human race literally would not continue for very long if the majority of women up and decided that kids weren't their thing. It is also ingrained biologically to procreate. THAT being said- from my personal experience I can relate to both sides of this equation. I have zero (and I mean ZERO) interest in babies and kids as a kid/adolescent. No babysitting for money for me, no "aww she's so cute can I hold her" moments. I questioned my desire to EVER have kids or if I did I didn't want them until I was in my 30's (ya know like when I'm an old adult-  ) 

i ended up getting married super young at 19 and my Husband and I were very content just the 2 of us for several years. Around 23 my feelings about wanting a family changed. 3 kids later and I can say motherhood is a profound shift in my entire identity. The act of pregnancy and birth itself was in itself an achievement for me. It was the first time I really ever felt empowered as a woman for something really really hard that i did on my own (with my husbands excellent support of course) I'm still me but my interests have now expanded exponentially. 

And many parents do feel their kids are their achievements because we see this crazy tiny new entity that we made and now are responsible for molding into a person worthy of carrying on the human race. And that starts as babies. Much like we analyze and break down characters in these forums and get excited at character growth and development, watching your babies growth and change (at a really incredible rate) and see how differently they react to the same things as markers of their personalities is fascinating. And we get to have a direct hand in it. And when we see them make progress and have success DESPITE our own failings as a parent ...it's hard not to be super proud of that. 

So while motherhood isn't for everyone and that's ok it is definitely normal and the majority of outcomes in a woman's life. 

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7080

Thanks for the link! This interview gives a lot of insight of how Sanderson works and develops his work. I find it amazingly interesting! I'm using another answer in this post below.

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

The funny thing is, that Shallan and Kaladin are both Radiants and almost do no Radiant stuff together. Whenever there is something big going down, they are separated...

YES! From the moment that I read Shallan and Dalinar combining their powers to make... well, just a map :| I instantly got the secret hope that we would see Kaladin spear fighting airborne, while doing Shadow Clone technique! But. Well. That didn't happen. (yet?)

43 minutes ago, Starla said:

 

@insert_anagram_here Thank you for listing these out. The authorial intent of this particular storyline is something I've been considering and struggling with. Unfortunately, I think the answer is C. The reason being: if you look at the reactions of the majority of readers, (those outside this thread and on reddit and other places), they seem to feel this particular storyline has come to a satisfying conclusion. They feel that Shallan has gotten better by the end of the book and that the marriage is good for her. Combine this with the romance plots in Brandon's other books, and it feels like a familiar conclusion to a sub-plot used to highlight and resolve a particular character’s weakness or dilemma.

Many have brought up the Mistborn triangle. Heroine meets and is instantly attracted to handsome, charming guy from prominent noble house. Heroine later meets dark, broody “bad" guy and is tempted by a certain mystery and freedom he represents. Heroine is confronted with conflicting feelings within herself and must make a choice between happy and stable or dangerous and free. Heroine chooses happy and stable, they get married, are super awesome together, and save the world. Flowers grow. The end.

Perhaps there is more to it than that and I will be pleasantly surprised in future books if Shallan is not miraculously healed by a relationship. But at this point it looks like a completed plot to me. I hope to see her become her full awesome self, but I think that will happen through her marriage rather than through her own individual growth as a character. As a reader who loves super strong female characters, it feels like an unsatisfying conclusion, but it happens sometimes. Fortunately there are tons of other storylines in SA that are fully satisfying and rewarding. I am in awe of Brandon's genius in worldbuilding, lore, magic, and those are the areas where Stormlight really shines. 

Thank you for expressing thoughts that I couldn't find a way to express.

I can see how people falsely link the two "female characters linked into a love triangle" but I find these two completely two separate cases. Kaladin is nothing like Zane and Vin in nothing like Shallan. Considering we have a different set of characters types I cannot see how the two are related.

I am a reader that also loves super strong female characters and Vin was mainly the reason I read the Mistborn books. Even if Shallan isn't as powerful as Vin, I love her complexity and ingenuity in her personality, but in Sanderson's creativity as well. At least I did love her in the first two books.

Here, in OB, I am at a loss... I have no idea what happened to her. This split personality development and the swift marriage as a conclusion disappoint me very much.

SLNC posted a link earlier and I've found the below on the same page. 

Quote

Questioner

Who is your favorite character, character development-wise?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooh, favorite character for character development. Who develops the best? That is really hard for me to say... From any book? Who has the most development-- I would say Shallan has undergone the biggest transformation in the major books. No, Vin. Vin goes through the biggest change, so we'll go with Vin. Vin's the best character development across the course of the books.

Considering Sanderson's years of experience, creating Shallan would appear as a challenge and interesting way for him to evolve as an author.

I was hoping for Shallan to surpass Vin but this answer right here makes me heartbreaking doubt that is the case.

Edited November 25, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Starla]

@FuzzyWordsmith @SLNC (and others who have replied in the last few minutes)... I hope you're right and there's more to it than what we've seen so far. Perhaps I'm looking too much at feedback from other readers, who think it is a satisfying conclusion for Shallan. However, at this point I'm not seeing what the other options are. The line "without you I fade," and the implication that Adolin somehow brings her back to herself and makes her whole, seems to be the "answer" to her struggles at the end of the book. I don't expect that she will be 100% healed in the next book, but I expect she will be better and he will be helping her find herself. Maybe the story will go in completely different direction that we haven't foreseen, and we'll be blown away. Going into Oathbringer I certainly didn't foresee Dalinar opening a perpendicularity or Moash killing a herald or Syl having a bounty on her head. I do trust Brandon as a writer, so I'll try to keep an open mind, but I'm not setting my expectations too high for Shallan to find herself outside of her relationship. I think the implication here is that Love Conquers All (which oddly enough, I normality like as a trope, so long as it doesn't interfere with the individual character growth. I am a romantic at heart, but not at the expense of inner strength.)

[FuzzyWordsmith]

Just now, Starla said:

@FuzzyWordsmith @SLNC (and others who have replied in the last few minutes)... I hope you're right and there's more to it than what we've seen so far. Perhaps I'm looking too much at feedback from other readers, who think it is a satisfying conclusion for Shallan. However, at this point I'm not seeing what the other options are. The line "without you I fade," and the implication that Adolin somehow brings her back to herself and makes her whole, seems to be the "answer" to her struggles at the end of the book. I don't expect that she will be 100% healed in the next book, but I expect she will be better and he will be helping her find herself. Maybe the story will go in completely different direction that we haven't foreseen, and we'll be blown away. Going into Oathbringer I certainly didn't foresee Dalinar opening a perpendicularity or Moash killing a herald or Syl having a bounty on her head. I do trust Brandon as a writer, so I'll try to keep an open mind, but I'm not setting my expectations too high for Shallan to find herself outside of her relationship. I think the implication here is that Love Conquers All (which oddly enough, I normality like as a trope, so long as it doesn't interfere with the individual character growth. I am a romantic at heart, but not at the expense of inner strength.)

If that is what Brandon is going for, than that's a bit disturbing that he thinks a teenage girl can realistically find True Love in the most potent form possible in one guy she's known for a few months. That is cheesy fairy-tail level storytelling, and I hope Sanderson is better than that.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Starla said:

The line "without you I fade," and the implication that Adolin somehow brings her back to herself and makes her whole, seems to be the "answer" to her struggles at the end of the book.

I have a hope, that this is just another case of her thinking that, combined with just providing some sappy talk. Once again, Brandon already provided the correct strategy of tackling the issue in the book and Shallan doesn't do it. I really hope, that it comes back to bite her in the posterior, not only for the sake of character growth, but also for every reader, who suffers from similar problems, so they don't get the wrong picture. And I'm on @Dreamstorms side here... This book will be the most recent book for the next three years, who knows how many will read that and will think, that that is an acceptable solution.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I can see how people falsely link the two "female characters linked into a love triangle" but I find these two completely two separate cases. Kaladin is nothing like Zane and Vin in nothing like Shallan. Considering we have a different set of characters types I cannot see how the two are related.

I am a reader that also loves super strong female characters and Vin was mainly the reason I read the Mistborn books. Even if Shallan isn't as powerful as Vin, I love her complexity and ingenuity in her personality, but in Sanderson's creativity as well. At least I did love her in the first two books.

Here, in OB, I am at a loss... I have no idea what happened to her. This split personality development and the swift marriage as a conclusion disappoint me very much.

SLNC posted a link earlier and I've found the below on the same page. 

Considering Sanderson's years of experience, creating Shallan would appear as a challenge and interesting way for him to evolve as an author.

I was hoping for Shallan to surpass Vin but this answer right here makes me heartbreaking doubt that is the case.

And yet in this very same interview we get this quote from Brandon below about avoiding making female characters people to be saved or lusted after. (This quote is part of a larger discourse on the issue.) And yet... at the end of OB, Shallan has been saved by a man and a huge part of their connection is because they lust after one another... it’s just sad on so many levels. 

Quote

when men write it's like the girl exists to be saved or to be lusted after. You just have to be aware as a writer these are going to be very natural to you because of our society or whatever we've seen a lot in storytelling, and you just have to become aware of them. And as soon as you become aware of them you can start working on them.

 

[Starla]

@FuzzyWordsmith and others... Based on where Oathbringer ended (without you I fade, marriage, etc), what would you consider a satisfying direction for Shallan at this point, so that her mental illness is handled with the care and respect it deserves? I'm curious what our options are here. Looking for hope really.  

@Dreamstorm Thank you for posting that quote. It actually gives a little hope that there is more to Shallan's healing we haven't seen yet.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Starla

[insert_anagram_here]

 

21 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Exactly.

I've said this before and I'll say it again and again, I have tried to help a depressive man (my father) to get through it with love and understanding. The result was an almost ruined family, an almost ruined future and depressive episodes for myself and suicidal tendencies in my father. Until he chose to get some therapy.

I'm sorry you have gone through such hardship in your life and I can see how this topic does hit hard on you on a personal level.

I need to let you know that you are not alone. A lot of people are going through the same things you do, maybe not in the exact same way, but depression is hardly uncommon.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Starla said:

@FuzzyWordsmith and others... Based on where Oathbringer ended (without you I fade, marriage, etc), what would you consider a satisfying direction for Shallan at this point, so that her mental illness is handled with the care and respect it deserves? I'm curious what our options are here. Looking for hope really.  

Honestly? She is so entangled in her lies, that she has to really crash and acknowledge her problem before she can work on solving it again. I think, bringing her bond with Pattern to the edge of breaking would do the trick. Then maybe work with Wit.

2 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm sorry you have gone through such hardship in your life and I can see how this topic does hit hard on you on a personal level.

I need to let you know that you are not alone. A lot of people are going through the same things you do, maybe not in the exact same way, but depression is hardly uncommon.

I know that I'm not and I really appreciate these positive comments about it

This has been a long time ago now and my father is stable again. My family is seperated, but we are on decent to good terms. My own depressive episodes are stable. So, everything went as good as I could have hoped

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, Starla said:

@FuzzyWordsmith and others... Based on where Oathbringer ended (without you I fade, marriage, etc), what would you consider a satisfying direction for Shallan at this point, so that her mental illness is handled with the care and respect it deserves? I'm curious what our options are here. Looking for hope really.  

If we're talking what she needs, I think she needs a crash, like the one with Grund in Kholinar. It needs to hurt her and also the people around her. And I don't mean this to be mean or sadistic. The reason she needs this is to see that what she is doing isn't working, and she needs to actually start dealing with her issues instead of hiding from them. She needs to actively take steps to heal, by allowing herself the room to heal. She needs to accept that failure happens, and it is not the end.

EDIT: @SLNC Beat me to it XD

Edited November 25, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

And yet in this very same interview we get this quote from Brandon below about avoiding making female characters people to be saved or lusted after. (This quote is part of a larger discourse on the issue.) And yet... at the end of OB, Shallan has been saved by a man and a huge part of their connection is because they lust after one another... it’s just sad on so many levels. 

 

Yes, I've noticed that part of the interview as well let me quote it below:

Quote

Questioner

So when it comes to the superhero genre and female characters, I feel you have the two types. You have the damsel or the super sexualized black widow that is awesome. How has that been a worry for you?

Brandon Sanderson

So she's talking about the-- In superheroes you usually have the damsel, so you have the Mary Jane that needs to be rescued, or you have the black widow, hypersexualized thing like this, and the question is has that been a worry for me. It is something that is in the back of my brain, it's not  just a problem in superhero fiction, it's one of the ones that it is most manifest in. You will find the problem in most genres of speculative fiction, especially action genres. There's also what they call the-- There's the archetype of the Mother and the Crone. Those are your archetypes that women get to play. And it's been in the forefront of my brain a lot, in my writing, because I think as a writer the further you go as a writer the more you need to be aware of when you are falling into a cliche and when you're not. So yes it is something I've thought about quite a bit, particularly when I was writing Firefight"How am I going to deal with Megan as a character? And how am I going to deal with Mizzy as a character? And how they differ." So it was something I was thinking about very consciously as I working about on these books.

I think one regret I have a little bit is that I feel Mistborn I did a great job with Vin, but there's not very much of a female supporting cast in those books. It's kind of the archetype  that there's one girl in the whole city and then everyone else. And you kind of run into this and things like that and I was a little less conscious as a writer in those days. But it is something that I think all writers need to be aware of. The thing is that we talk a lot about feminist theory because it tends to be most manifest when men are writing, but when women write there is also one that they do that is they tend to make the guy like this perfect guy and what happens is the guy has no personality he's just perfection and the girl is either a klutz or a doofus or she can't do anything right and the guys are all these perfect ideals. And that's when women write, when men write it's like the girl exists to be saved or to be lusted after. You just have to be aware as a writer these are going to be very natural to you because of our society or whatever we've seen a lot in storytelling, and you just have to become aware of them. And as soon as you become aware of them you can start working on them.

The easiest way of getting away from doing this is to avoid tokenism, meaning if you are going to put someone in who is a certain ethnicity or is different from yourself or one thing like that, if you force yourself to put two in you then suddenly can't make them the stereotype because otherwise they are the same character and that forces you to really think about that and is one very easy way. I can go on for hours about that so take my class and ask me and we can talk about it.

This answer actually gave me hope, because it shows that he is aware that developing female characters is a challenge for him. He is aware of the bias he can fall into and he is actively tackling that part of his writing. Vin is exactly a proof of that.

 

 

@SLNC

I am sure it must have been a very hard and consuming process but I am happy that it has been resolved for you. 

It feels good to hear people overcoming depression. It is an underestimated disorder.

Edited November 25, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
@SLNC's post

[AubreyWrites she/her]

3 minutes ago, Starla said:

@FuzzyWordsmith and others... Based on where Oathbringer ended (without you I fade, marriage, etc), what would you consider a satisfying direction for Shallan at this point, so that her mental illness is handled with the care and respect it deserves? I'm curious what our options are here. Looking for hope really.  

I could see this going in several different directions and I could be onboard with any of them as long as it is actually addressed and not swept under the rug. That's what I think many of us are afraid of considering the anticipation of several payouts built in previous 2 books that had little to no payout in OB (Sadeas anyone?) if S4 comes around and things are magically better because of the resolution in OB it will be completely unsatisfying to me. I think this a a large part of why this thread even exists. Promises were made to the reader about certain issues being addressed (which way is irrelevant ) and then they weren't....basically like it almost never even happened. It's making me twitchy 

[Prelude]

So new member here (wave). I have been to this forum before but never thought about making an account where I would actually say anything but OB has me all upset and worried so here I am.

I became a  Shalladin shipper bc of how obvious BS seemed to write their inevitable pairing. I honestly didn’t even think about it in Wok but their first scene together in Wor I was hooked. In OB it felt like BS went out of his way to make the characters not interact. The flight to TC I was giddy in anticipation and then there was nothing. Zero. I found it so distracting and my heart began to sink. 

I can’t believe anyone would see Shallan and Andolins relationship has healthy. I found the whole “drinking buddies” very jarring and if BS normalizes this in SA4 I will definitely be looking at his work in a different light.  The boat scene was the only time I felt like I recognized  Shallan. The Shallan from Wor. Maybe just me being too baised.  

Sorry I know this has all been said before  but for my own state of mine I had to voice my displeasure . I just finished OB and have to say the ending (well more the writing kept me awake for hours). I want to be hopeful but I am really so nervous BS isn’t the writer I thought he was. Sorry again for the rehash but this was for my own sanity. 

[Starla]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Honestly? She is so entangled in her lies, that she has to really crash and acknowledge her problem before she can work on solving it again. I think, bringing her bond with Pattern to the edge of breaking would do the trick. Then maybe work with Wit.

 

3 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

If we're talking what she needs, I think she needs a crash, like the one with Grund in Kholinar. It needs to hurt her and also the people around her. And I don't mean this to be mean or sadistic. The reason she needs this is to see that what she is doing isn't working, and she needs to actually start dealing with her issues instead of hiding from them. She needs to actively take steps to heal, by allowing herself the room to heal. She needs to accept that failure happens, and it is not the end.

Okay I can see this as a potential direction. I can certainly see that her bond with Pattern is something only she can repair. If the bond is in danger it will force her to face things on her own. At the same time I can imagine readers complaining that her identity crisis is stretching on too long and becoming tedious, similar to complaints about Kaladin's extended brooding. I thought he made good emotional progress in Oathbringer, but many readers were annoyed by his breakdown in Kholinar and subsequent melancholy, that it was the same old problem being strung out across multiple books. People who understand depression know this is realistic, but many find it annoying. Hopefully Brandon will go for realistic rather than a quick and easy fix to a serious issue. I'll keep my hopes up. 

[AubreyWrites she/her]

@Prelude welcome to the club. You are not alone! As the pages upon pages of posts can attest- many of us also needed help processing our reactions to OB 

happy perusing!

[insert_anagram_here]

Hi @Prelude I am here for the exact same reason. As you will notice from a lot of people voicing themselves here, we are going through the five stages of grief...

[Prelude]

@AubreyWrites thanks! I’ve been reading for days now on this forum. I pretty much agree with all you have written and it is  far better than what I could express.  It helped to know I wasn’t alone in my thinking and that Reddit is not the place to be ha! 

[straits]

50 minutes ago, SLNC said:

storm. i really hope this is not the case. On reddit someone posted how touched they were by Shallan's arc in Oathbringer, because how they could relate to it by suffering from a similar condition. This would send such a bad picture to those people... Like not finding professional help and showing that a romantic relationship with a nice helpful guy or girl can solve the problem? It is great when an author touches real world issues and reflects them in their characters, but do your research right, which I think Brandon actually does a good job of, and never send false messages in regards to the solution of the problem.

I don't think Shallan's mental state is anywhere near resolution. She's proceeded to feed at least one of her multiple personalities even into the marriage ceremony (IIRC there was a timeleap of a few months and she's still referring to Veil as a separate entity, in front of Adolin). This isn't a literary slip-up by Sanderson, it's suggestion of future conflict.

45 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

...

(2) Literary plotting: I’m not worked up over this one, but unlike in Mistborn where our “bad guy” was a side character who existed for one book, we are talking about uselessly involving our main character. That seems like really poor writing and character development for our main character. (Not to mention a waste of page time.) I want to think there is some bigger payoff for Kaladin around the arc (whether romantic with Shallan or not) or else it is a big writing misstep. Also, Mistborn bad guy was, well, actually bad. Not so in our case, and weird to reduce our main character to that role in the triangle. 

(2) I will absolutely be able to overlook. (1) I’m really not sure.

I don't think it would be a writing misstep if there is no consequent payoff for Kaladin sometime in the future. Plenty of individuals in our world have not been "awarded" in such a way despite their good achievements/personality. And Kaladin's growth (and its process) is a reward in itself. Having said that, I'm not a fan of enforcing the Chekhov's Gun concept in every story. Not everything has to be satisfactorily "concluded"; life does not work that way.

As for a main character being reduced to the "bad guy" role in the triangle - this is ostensibly not something Sanderson does in his description through all three PoVs. This is what Shallan does as a mental leap to make the decision easier.

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So... How I personally rationalize the fact that "Sanderson placed this love triangle in the SA" would be either and/or one of these cases:

(a) he did this to boost sales without regarding proper character development. 

(b) It happened unintentionally on his part, as the character development grew astray from the chasm scene onward. Then he tried to tie it up with a marriage conclusion in OB.

(c) he places this intentionally as a character development point for Shallan only and the marriage is a conclusion in stability (or instability) for her.

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

I mean't to adress this too - Thanks @insert_anagram_here for putting this together. Also @Starla I must admit that whilst I am probably not convinced (c) is the most likely outcome I am fully aware that my personal preference is getting in my way of being rational about it.

I also was not mad about the Mistborn love story, and I found Elend a bit meh initially, but that plot didn't get anywhere near the amount of page time this one has. I didn't care much about who she chose, I was just invested in her being awesome and saving the world etc.

1 hour ago, Starla said:

Like several others have pointed out, my issues here are related to Shallan’s character development rather than shipping. I’m not on team Shadolin or Shalladin, but rather on Team “Shallan being awesome."  If there were a Shallan character thread, I would post my thoughts there.

I would like to think I'm on the SS Shalladin ship because I'm on team "Shallan being awesome" - or in my mind herself. I like Shallan, she has her bad moments but that makes more likeable, not less. We are our flaws as much as our strengths. I think my lack of love for Adolin partly stems because his flaws are either less profound, or he hides them from us when we get his PoV. He just isn't flawed enough. As an exceedingly flawed individual myself, I find him difficult to relate to.

Oh, also don't leave us if you decide to start a Shallan appreciation thread

I also second your request of @Stormlightning

48 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, this is not how OSDD gets better, and we're fairly certain that's what Shallan has. If Sanderson has her get better in this way, that means he just didn't bother doing research, and that he let's his biases bleed too much into things. I still don't know how to feel about it. If this is the "happy ending" then I feel Sanderson has failed as an author. For anyone else, that would cause me to drop the author.

Yes I see what you mean. I have run out of upvotes. Again.... 

40 minutes ago, SLNC said:

On reddit someone posted how touched they were by Shallan's arc in Oathbringer, because how they could relate to it by suffering from a similar condition.

I can't see how this works. If Shallan is better then her recovery is an overly romantic fiction that simply makes no sense. If it is, then I will have serious problems going forward. I can't even watch medical dramas anymore because they are too unrealistic. Why take my fantasy books away from me too 

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

(1) Morally/emotionally: Our lead female character, who has been built up as being on a journey of independence and self-sufficiency becoming a women who needs a man to discover her real self and prop her up. Beyond being unsatisfying, it actually makes me a little ill. In Mistborn, Vin didn’t lose herself and her identity in her marriage, so while I don’t think that romance was particularly well-written, it was not completely anti-feminist. When it comes to the fans who are totally OK with this being Shallan’s romantic conclusion, what is that saying - women should look for a man to prop them up rather than solving their problems on their own? Men should be that role for women (and it goes hand in hand with causally subjugating women because they are too “weak” to stand on their own)? The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I knew fantasy literature had a sexism problem, and I guess this is that problem smacking me in the head.

But we all know women are clearly useless without their big strong men to make everything better. I mean, come on they have like, periods and uteruses and hormones. They can't possibly be expected to cope on their own....... /s

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

(2) Literary plotting: I’m not worked up over this one, but unlike in Mistborn where our “bad guy” was a side character who existed for one book, we are talking about uselessly involving our main character. That seems like really poor writing and character development for our main character. (Not to mention a waste of page time.) I want to think there is some bigger payoff for Kaladin around the arc (whether romantic with Shallan or not) or else it is a big writing misstep. Also, Mistborn bad guy was, well, actually bad. Not so in our case, and weird to reduce our main character to that role in the triangle

I think I am actually  more worked up over this one. Not that i think it is ok to pidgeonhole women, but I know Sanderson has written strong women in the past and will likely do so in the future. I'll be annoyed if Shallan doesn't prove to be one of them, but I'll live. The literary stuff though, that bugs me. It means he has been stringing me along and I hate being lied to. It will mean I can't analyse his word choices or his moments of supposed foreshaowing because I won't be able to trust him anymore. That takes all the enjoyment out of the book for me. I am not good at just reading, I analyse as I go, I make notes on my book, I reference previous books. I'm really weird. I can cope with plots going in unexpected directions and then finding out that the foreshadowing was there all along, I am happy to have characters do unexpected things but I really hate the idea that an author would go out of their way to deliberately mislead me. If he didn't want the Shalladin thing to be a, well, thing. Then he needed to nip it in the bud earlier in OB.

 

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Ok so I'm going to have to play devils advocate on this despite agreeing  whole heartedly with the sentiment that Shallan REALLY doesn't need to be a mom right now. Motherhood is not inevitable for all women. I know several who are perfectly content and complete without ever having kids.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently studying Medicine, whilst in my mid thirties, and I am in the Middle East. I am very sick of being told my tutors that I don't really want to be a [insert medical specialty here] - I should be a GP so I can look after my future babies....... It makes me mad as hell. I am not anti the idea of children, but I'm not crazy about it either. If a womans wants kids then more power to her. As Jasnah would say, her strength should lie in her power to choose. If I end up as a GP it should be because that is what I want, not because I am a walking uterus.

 

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

i ended up getting married super young at 19 and my Husband and I were very content just the 2 of us for several years. Around 23 my feelings about wanting a family changed. 3 kids later and I can say motherhood is a profound shift in my entire identity. The act of pregnancy and birth itself was in itself an achievement for me. It was the first time I really ever felt empowered as a woman for something really really hard that i did on my own (with my husbands excellent support of course) I'm still me but my interests have now expanded exponentially.

Ok, so I see your point, and I was maybe too harsh. I was thinking about the 15 year old I helped deliver of a baby a few months ago. She didn't choose to get pregnant. It was a complete mistake. She was still going out and drinking/smoking right up to the end doing god knows what harm to the foetus. I don't blame a teenager for being selfish, but then you shouldn't get pregnant if you cant identify with the idea of putting someone else first.

Your achievement was that you chose. I can get behind that as an achievement because it is empowering in a society where many people push you into the idea of wanting kids. It is ok to want kids, it is great if they make you a better person, it is fantastic if you feel that they broaden your scope and understanding as a person. But none of things are a good reason to want them. It should happen because you are ready and you make the choice.

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

And many parents do feel their kids are their achievements because we see this crazy tiny new entity that we made and now are responsible for molding into a person worthy of carrying on the human race. And that starts as babies. Much like we analyze and break down characters in these forums and get excited at character growth and development, watching your babies growth and change (at a really incredible rate) and see how differently they react to the same things as markers of their personalities is fascinating. And we get to have a direct hand in it. And when we see them make progress and have success DESPITE our own failings as a parent ...it's hard not to be super proud of that. 

I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. 

27 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I was hoping for Shallan to surpass Vin but this answer right here makes me heartbreaking doubt that is the case.

Don't panic yet - Vin's arc is done, Shallan's isn't yet. I know he has a plan, but it is still subject to change.

27 minutes ago, Starla said:

Going into Oathbringer I certainly didn't foresee Dalinar opening a perpendicularity or Moash killing a herald or Syl having a bounty on her head. I do trust Brandon as a writer, so I'll try to keep an open mind, but I'm not setting my expectations too high for Shallan to find herself outside of her relationship. I think the implication here is that Love Conquers All (which oddly enough, I normality like as a trope, so long as it doesn't interfere with the individual character growth. I am a romantic at heart, but not at the expense of inner strength.)

Yes I agree. I guess I would be more than happy with the idea of this if it was written in a ChickLit book but that isn't why I read Fantasy. It is fine if it works within the genre, but it needs to be believable because so much of the rest of the story is inherently unbelievable.

21 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

And yet in this very same interview we get this quote from Brandon below about avoiding making female characters people to be saved or lusted after. (This quote is part of a larger discourse on the issue.) And yet... at the end of OB, Shallan has been saved by a man and a huge part of their connection is because they lust after one another... it’s just sad on so many levels. 

To be fair, until SA4 is out we can't be sure he means for it to be taken this way. We may find WoBs come out if he thinks people are taking it in a potentially dangerous way. He is not trying to cause harm, he wants to tell stories.

19 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Honestly? She is so entangled in her lies, that she has to really crash and acknowledge her problem before she can work on solving it again. I think, bringing her bond with Pattern to the edge of breaking would do the trick. Then maybe work with Wit.

I don't think it needs to be quite so dramatic - I can see why you say that though. In addiction, hitting "rock bottom" is often the way people finally get the clarity they need to start the healing process. I am not sure that is strictly necessary with OSDD. Though I would definitely defer to @FuzzyWordsmith's experience in that. I just think it could be argued that someone like Shallan may be capable of getting out of it without another crash. It probably does need to be a bad moment though.

22 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This answer actually gave me hope, because it shows that he is aware that developing female characters is a challenge for him. He is aware of the bias he can fall into and he is actively tackling that part of his writing. Vin is exactly a proof of that.

I also find it funny that female writers tend to make their male characters "perfect". 

*cough cough* Adolin anyone??

18 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

S4 comes around and things are magically better because of the resolution in OB it will be completely unsatisfying to me. I think this a a large part of why this thread even exists. Promises were made to the reader about certain issues being addressed (which way is irrelevant ) and then they weren't....basically like it almost never even happened. It's making me twitchy 

This. Waiting for more upvotes then you are getting one.

@Prelude welcome welcome to the (?sinking) SS Shalladin.  You are most welcome. Have a cookie. 

You have found yourself a group of like minded people. I think that pretty much everyone here is feeling very similarly to you and this is our way of coping with it. I think it is interesting that you mentioned that the only time you recognised Shallan was on the boat - am I right in thinking you mean when she got excited about the Mandras and their relationship to luckspren?

She was talking to Kaladin at the time........

[Darvys]

I can't believe this thread is still going strong, i guess with new people completing the book at different times we'll be discussing this for a few weeks more.

I'm just jumping in again because i'm annoyed at people blaming Brandon for what some readers took away from the book, people will see what they want to see, there are enough signs for anyone paying attention and i won't hold Brandon responsible for someone who'll pick wrong life advice by misunderstanding the story. If you look to fiction to validate your life choices, well let's just say that what Brandon writes is the least of your troubles.

That aside, it's painfull to see the lack of faith in Brandon here, it didn't take any amount of genius to see that there was something deeply wrong with Shallan's behavior (particularly) in the last few povs, it's not a stretch to assume that among all the people who read previous versions of the book, there would be at least one willing to voice these same complaints we've ben rehashing here. So if Brandon decided to go with it as is anyway, maybe that's because he's not quite done and we only saw one stage of a longer than expected arc.

Sure, there were some akward moments, and things we would have wanted to see didn't happen, so what ? We're dealing with awkward characters each trying to deal with a mess of problems and some are failing spectacularly. 

Even if i'm wrong and Brandon did take the cringeworthy path despite all the awesomeness we got from him, maybe the least we can do is wait to have confirmation before we start crying and tearing our clothes and hair in despair ?