[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[firegazer]

5 minutes ago, straits said:

The foreshadowing for a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan ended up in internal character development and emotional concessions for both Shallan and Kaladin, with varied consequences that we are yet to fully see in the subsequent books. 

Except that I found the craftsmanship on these developments so poorly crafted and confusing that I wasn't sure they needed to be there at all. Sanderson normally has an ability to give you a clear idea of what happened emotionally in a scene and what the concrete results are and why. I didn't find that to be the case with any of these scenes -- I came out of each of them feeling like he wasn't sure where he was going with them, and the entire arc felt much less 1 + 1 = 2 than he normally manages with character development. As some people have noted, there were large jumps in emotion from Shallan in particular, with little basis in real scenes. I don't feel that's because he hasn't gotten there yet. I honestly believe, based on his previous work, that he simply has a perspective issue with romance, where he doesn't believe his usual techniques apply, and he therefore misses the mark. I could be totally wrong -- it's simply a guess on my part, based on the evidence I've seen.

9 minutes ago, straits said:

And there's an excellent piece of writing on fan expectations of authors that Neil Gaiman wrote. I don't mean to recommend it to you as a way to tell you that your opinion is invalid. But it is not the author's job to satisfy you.

I'm trying to take this in an optimistic way, since you've stated it's not your intention to tell me my opinion is invalid. But you have followed that up very quickly with the statement that I want the author to satisfy me, and that this opinion is invalid. Perhaps you might try rewording it so that I better understand what you mean.

But to comment on the author's job -- that depends entirely on what you define as a "job." If you are defining "job" in an economic way, then it is the author's job to satisfy the most readers possible, such that they continue to sell books. In this case, he's almost certainly doing his job, given that I'm a minority in the things that I like. If you are defining "job" as a responsibility to society, I would suggest that the author has a responsibility to break societal expectations and challenge beliefs -- something he isn't doing very well here. If you are defining "job" as his responsibility as an artist, he has a responsibility to create something meaningful and unique, and to challenge himself to improve his craft with each book. He has done this very well in some ways in this book, and not very well in others. In all cases, I think I can make a philosophical argument here, but that seems beyond the scope of this thread.

[straits]

32 minutes ago, firegazer said:

Except that I found the craftsmanship on these developments so poorly crafted and confusing that I wasn't sure they needed to be there at all. Sanderson normally has an ability to give you a clear idea of what happened emotionally in a scene and what the concrete results are and why. I didn't find that to be the case with any of these scenes -- I came out of each of them feeling like he wasn't sure where he was going with them, and the entire arc felt much less 1 + 1 = 2 than he normally manages with character development. As some people have noted, there were large jumps in emotion from Shallan in particular, with little basis in real scenes. I don't feel that's because he hasn't gotten there yet.

I can see this as a difference in how readers parse certain scenes. Shallan's erratic behaviour does not necessarily follow a neat chain of causality (or 1+1=2 in character development). But to me, this suggests that the formula for her characterization is more complex, and yet to be revealed in the series, which is part of what I find enjoyable about the book.

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I'm trying to take this in an optimistic way, since you've stated it's not your intention to tell me my opinion is invalid. But you have followed that up very quickly with the statement that I want the author to satisfy me, and that this opinion is invalid. Perhaps you might try rewording it so that I better understand what you mean.

I could be wrong here, but your previous post comes across as an indictment on Sanderson's writing because a certain character did not end up in the situation where you expected her to. You followed this up by stating that the story is therefore guilty of several tropes, boring, and that you will re-evaluate your view on the writer. This is fine. But Sanderson not fulfilling your expectation does not equate to this expectation being a literary standard he failed to achieve. 

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If you are defining "job" as a responsibility to society, I would suggest that the author has a responsibility to break societal expectations and challenge beliefs -- something he isn't doing very well here. If you are defining "job" as his responsibility as an artist, he has a responsibility to create something meaningful and unique, and to challenge himself to improve his craft with each book. He has done this very well in some ways in this book, and not very well in others. In all cases, I think I can make a philosophical argument here, but that seems beyond the scope of this thread.

In a perfect world, his job would solely be a responsibility towards society. But since there is no ethical consumption under capitalism (and that indeed is venturing into the philosophical), we can only enforce this through buying (or not buying) a book. I frequently have issues with the way certain authors have handled class, race, and the issues of lionizing warmongers. In some cases, I have dropped books and comics because the authors' underlying opinions shone through, and I did not like what I saw.

I suppose it is a matter of what the dealbreaker is for you as a reader. My opinion does not seem to intersect with many readers in this thread, so I find the way it is being debated interesting  

Edited November 26, 2017 by straits
edited for clarity

[AubreyWrites she/her]

56 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I suspect that some people here are in fact just upset that their favoured ship did not “win,” which is natural and fairly common judging from other fandoms. I suspect the real angst here is coming from a sudden lack of trust in the author, however, given that his writing up until now on this particular series has been very tight and careful, and it has now gone in strangely undisciplined directions all at once. Readers are now no longer sure that anything in the text has meaning in the way they once assumed that everything did — Sanderson has dropped too many foreshadowing hints now that failed to come to fruition

(Bolded)I think if you will go back and read through the thread (daunting task I know) you will see from multiple posts/people that this is not the issue. 

(Unbolded) this is more in line with the majority of the thread

[Darvys]

4 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I think I can make a philosophical argument here, but that seems beyond the scope of this thread.

Give us a week or two, we'll get there if we aren't already. As for the points you made, i don't think we're grasping at straws, if only because there is far more at stake here than a simple ship or romantical plotline, throughout this thread discussions have mostly revolved around Shallan's character development and her dealing with her mental issues, these aren't things i believe Brandon would ever drop the ball on, so regardless of your faith in his ability to portray satisfying romance you should at least trust that he would never butcher one of his main characters in the way this "resolution" would convey.

[firegazer]

1 minute ago, straits said:

I could be wrong here, but your previous post comes across as an indictment on Sanderson's writing because a certain character did not end up in the situation where you expected her to. You followed this up by stating that the story is therefore guilty of several tropes, boring, and that you will re-evaluate your view on the writer. This is fine. But Sanderson not fulfilling your expectation does not equate to this expectation being a literary standard he failed to achieve. This is what I understood from your post.

Ah. I think I see what you mean. To some extent, I am a minority within the literary community. I actually do believe that there is such a thing as objectively good writing and objectively bad writing. I have had long arguments with other readers and writers about it. If we don't believe that there is such a thing as objectively bad writing, then how are we able to say things like "this author has gotten better"? I sometimes fear that we take ourselves entirely too liberally in this way, which diminishes how seriously people take literature in turn.

I have an actual list of criteria I use when I am editing work. It's how I'm able to do it in the first place. In general, though not 100% of the time, I have found this list to be true to how well readers enjoy the work. I have absolutely no problem with the idea of using tropes in writing. Tropes generally become tropes for a reason, and it would be impossible to write a book without using them. But some tropes have better foundations than others, and others have a greater meaning within the context of the society in which they developed, and within their CURRENT society. The arranged marriage trope is a literary crime at this point, in my opinion, especially from male authors. There's no need for it. There are a hundred other tropes you could choose as an author which would not bring up very thorny issues as a reflection on current society. We have only just (relatively speaking) gotten to the point where women have more freedom and more ability to advocate for themselves. Traditionally, arranged marriage WAS an example of the commoditization of women and the devaluing of their worth to society as quite literally a vessel to make heirs and represent family alliances. It still IS an example of this in many areas of the world. We are not free of its negative connotations, and I am therefore getting tired of seeing male authors get away with using it as a trope when they should certainly know better by now -- especially when I know that said authors are creative enough to make different choices.

In short, while I am sure that Sanderson has the ability to write out certain conflicts in a satisfying manner, I am tired enough of these conflicts that I don't see the need for them to be written AT ALL, and certainly not through the lens of a male author. Even the placement of Shallan into a commoditized situation bothered me -- the decision to make that commoditization bloom into a relationship bothers me more. The fact that the character progression leading up to this resolution seemed poorly written was icing on the cake. It's a layered problem.

Sanderson displayed other issues in his writing of this book which were not related to Shallan -- he dropped the plot thread of Adolin killing Sadeas, when his writing in the last book gave that conflict a place of prominence and heavily hinted through context that it would be important. He skipped emotionally heavy scenes, like Jasnah returning from the dead and Navani's reaction to Elhokar's death. I found a lot of this to be sloppy writing, which is where I think the big lack of trust is coming from in readers. Because this sloppiness wasn't entirely restricted to Shallan's scenes, there is a lot of questioning going on in people's heads about whether Sanderson has just dropped yet another thread at the very end with Shallan.

[mariapapadia she/her]

1 hour ago, straits said:

A lot of this is critique that demands the author to obey Chekhov's Gun in a very literal way. The foreshadowing for a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan ended up in internal character development and emotional concessions for both Shallan and Kaladin, with varied consequences that we are yet to fully see in the subsequent books. 

On your comments about his patriarchal crafting of society, I think you're right. But for better or worse, it is the prerogative of the author, and like you said - what you choose to read, is on you. I don't think anyone should be dissatisfied at the lack of resolution on mental trauma (in Shallan's case) in book 3 in a 10-book series, though.

And there's an excellent piece of writing on fan expectations of authors that Neil Gaiman wrote. I don't mean to recommend it to you as a way to tell you that your opinion is invalid. But it is not the author's job to satisfy you.

This made me go look in to the reddit rabbithole, because I knew I saw Brandon commenting on this once. The context was on an Oathbringer update post, where he said something along the lines of " So this is an update about YOUR book" and then some people commented that he doesn't owe us anything and referenced the Neil Gaiman article. Brandon responded to that with the following comment (sorry for being technologically inept and not providing the direct link to the reddit thread and adding this as an image)

This here implies, that even Brandon agrees to some extent with the "X author is not my slontze", he knows and is aware of the promises he makes to the reader ( in this particular case this refers to number of books or how open someone is with their writing process), but I think that could be extended to expectations the author creates for the reader when it comes to the plot and characters. In his lectures he constantly brings out this point.

So yes, while I agree there is a posibility of this being part of a longer game he's playing, I think is also realistically, considering how many threads are coming to life in the next books and how difficult it will be to manage everything, that there is no room for exploring Shallan's consequances for jumping into a problematic marriage. And I don't think it's absurd of people feeling this is not satisfactory or having other expectations, when they were set for those. 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by mariapapadia

[straits]

1 minute ago, mariapapadia said:

snip

Thanks for the link, I did not know Sanderson chimed in on this view!

However, the issue within this thread seems to be the fact that the book OB seems to be not stand-alone or modular enough to satisfy readers while they wait for certain resolutions in the sequels, which I do believe are coming, whether they are satisfactory or not.

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So yes, while I agree there is a posibility of this being part of a longer game he's playing, I think is also realistically, considering how many threads are coming to life in the next books and how difficult it will be to manage everything, that there is no room for exploring Shallan's consequances for jumping into a problematic marriage. And I don't think it's absurd of people feeling this is not satisfactory or having other expectations, when they were set for those. 

I think there is room to explore the consequences of getting into an arranged marriage. And my personal disagreement with the expectations of some other readers, has more to do with where these resolutions will take place - within, or after OB. I might get this post dropped on my head in a future thread on book 4, but I'm looking forward to that.

[straits]

28 minutes ago, firegazer said:

Ah. I think I see what you mean. To some extent, I am a minority within the literary community. I actually do believe that there is such a thing as objectively good writing and objectively bad writing. I have had long arguments with other readers and writers about it. If we don't believe that there is such a thing as objectively bad writing, then how are we able to say things like "this author has gotten better"? I sometimes fear that we take ourselves entirely too liberally in this way, which diminishes how seriously people take literature in turn.

I see. I'll admit that I am somewhere on the opposite end of the scale in the literary community. When something is classified as an art, breaking down objective standards is par for the course. It may not be particularly impressive art, if it uses worn-out tropes. And like yourself, I distance myself from the works of authors whose opinions and perpetuated values I disagree with. But I don't own an objective framework from which to condemn it.

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I have an actual list of criteria I use when I am editing work. It's how I'm able to do it in the first place. In general, though not 100% of the time, I have found this list to be true to how well readers enjoy the work. I have absolutely no problem with the idea of using tropes in writing. Tropes generally become tropes for a reason, and it would be impossible to write a book without using them. But some tropes have better foundations than others, and others have a greater meaning within the context of the society in which they developed, and within their CURRENT society. The arranged marriage trope is a literary crime at this point, in my opinion, especially from male authors. There's no need for it. There are a hundred other tropes you could choose as an author which would not bring up very thorny issues as a reflection on current society. We have only just (relatively speaking) gotten to the point where women have more freedom and more ability to advocate for themselves. Traditionally, arranged marriage WAS an example of the commoditization of women and the devaluing of their worth to society as quite literally a vessel to make heirs and represent family alliances. It still IS an example of this in many areas of the world. We are not free of its negative connotations, and I am therefore getting tired of seeing male authors get away with using it as a trope when they should certainly know better by now -- especially when I know that said authors are creative enough to make different choices.

I personally agree with your view on the arranged marriage trope. But I believe that in order to condemn something in comparison with an objective, literary standard, in particular if it deals with what you think is good or bad for society, it should come from an axiomatically derived foundation (for most people this would be God, although for some this is a cop out). If the foundation is instead something along the lines of "it does not align with the sensibilities of a large number of people within the community", then it is not an objective standard. It is a clash of worldviews.

 

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In short, while I am sure that Sanderson has the ability to write out certain conflicts in a satisfying manner, I am tired enough of these conflicts that I don't see the need for them to be written AT ALL, and certainly not through the lens of a male author. Even the placement of Shallan into a commoditized situation bothered me -- the decision to make that commoditization bloom into a relationship bothers me more. The fact that the character progression leading up to this resolution seemed poorly written was icing on the cake. It's a layered problem.

This is probably related to how people view storyline continuity within a book. I don't see there being a resolution within this book, and instead wait for it in the next one. I understand why you could classify this as poor writing. And I agree on the Sadeas sub-plot. 

edit: Sorry for not going into more detail, I think your points on the commoditization (sp?) of women in society are a great addition to this thread, but since it's late, I won't be able to expand on more. But in this particular situation, I wonder if the shift in Alethi social structure with the coming of the KR will mean that Adolin is more of a political tool to Shallan than vice versa.

Edited November 26, 2017 by straits

[mariapapadia she/her]

4 minutes ago, straits said:

Thanks for the link, I did not know Sanderson chimed in on this view!

However, the issue within this thread seems to be the fact that the book OB seems to be not stand-alone or modular enough to satisfy readers while they wait for certain resolutions in the sequels, which I do believe are coming, whether they are satisfactory or not.

I think there is room to explore the consequences of getting into an arranged marriage. And my personal disagreement with the expectations of some other readers, has more to do with where these resolutions will take place - within, or after OB. I might get this post dropped on my head in a future thread on book 4, but I'm looking forward to that.

I don't deny that on some level I would be interesting in seeing that, but on the other hand I feel it has a high probability of that getting out of hand if the idea behind this is "let's see where this is going", that is if it's not already set and planned. It's interesting to see real life issues in a fantasy book and I agree that is part of the appeal SA has for me and is one of the main reasons I read this series. But like @PhineasGage well said, when do you know reading about mundane issues becomes too much? I for one don't feel particulary excited about the prospect of exploring marriage issues. It could be interesing, but at the same time I think that from a narrative point of view, it will take too much of the focus from other characters, plus other world issues. 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, I am not that fond of confrontation, but I feel there are some things I would like to address. I'm not used to longer form posts, so I apologize if this isn't too well formed.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I personally do not understand the strong resistance against Shallan having kids nor the ingrained idea within the readership the minute a woman has a child she is either: 1) succumbing to society pressure, 2) ingraining the idea women need to have children despite very few fantasy book ever broaching the topic of children, 3) boring and doomed to an uninteresting story arc.

I know it's been stated before, but the primary problem isn't her having kids. It's her having kids while still suffering from OSDD that she is not taking steps to treat. I am personally not worried about Shallan here. I am worried for the child. I guarantee that if Shallan had a child, it would be worse of than Adolin and Renarin were with Dalinar.

8 hours ago, maxal said:

I honestly doubt Shallan's story arc will keep on being about her multiple personalities. OB offered resolution in the sense Shallan finally agreed she was she and Veil/Radiant merely were disguises she used at times. This thread might disagrees with me, but I consider it a close case: just as Brandon couldn't afford writing another book focusing on Kaladin being depressed, he can't afford writing another book focusing on Shallan being fractured, especially since the response to OB is not as positive as the response to his other books was. Of course, the personas are more than that, but Shallan now seems to make the distinction and if it is likely she will have to deal with them all her life, just as Kaladin will always deal with depression, I do not see them being a major story arc again just as Kaladin being depressed wasn't a major arc this time around.

This is something I just can't agree with. She is at a stage with OSDD where she fully believes that her personas are individual people. I cannot read her having a full conversation with Veil and Radiant and accept that she sees them as merely disguises. And while you say Brandon couldn't afford writing another book about Kaladin's depression, I think that is a major oversimplification of the issue. He has a major depressive episode in OB. His seasonal affective disorder is in play in part one. They remain a part of his character. He is getting over them, but at no point do they just go away and stop being a part of his character arc. For him to do that with Shallan, and not Kaladin seems to make no sense to me. 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

As I said in a previous post, if people were to wait until they had resolved each and every one of their issues before making kids, then nobody would be having them. It is entirely possible and plausible, within the existing narrative, Shallan may want to have those kids with Adolin despite the fact she still needs to deal with her personas. I would ever argue it would be the best thing to happen to her character if she does make this decision.

Why?

Because our main protagonists just spent 1000 pages grazing at their own navels, this is especially true for Dalinar and Shallan, not so much for Kaladin, my critics for his story arc are somewhat different. We have just read both Dalinar and Shallan focusing deeply onto their personal problems and how those personal problems were affecting them, but we never once read them think or even consider how they might be affecting those around them. For instance, Kaladin speaks of the mixed signals he got from Shallan seeming as if she were interested while latching onto Adolin's arms: he spent hundred of pages not knowing what to do about it because the situation confused him. Not once did Shallan thought of what her behavior and her "problems" might impact her friends: she doesn't think Kaladin receiving mixed signals matters nor does she care Adolin catching on them matters as well because all which mattered to her was herself and how broken she was.

And don't get me started on Dalinar who spent 1000 pages remembering the fact he burned his wife alive while not spending one paragraph thinking of what it meant for his sons. Not once did he think of how unfair he had been to ignore Renarin during all of his childhood nor how Evi's death made him reject Adolin because he looked too much like her. Not once is he thinking he deprived his boys of their mother and if it is hard for him to bear the guilt, he should at least have conscience of the people who suffered for his actions. It was all about him, his pain, his person, his own navel. So selfish.

As such, giving Shallan a child might actually make her take actions and think for someone else but herself. It make give more depth to her life and stop having her think her own problems are the center of the universe because this is kind of what kids do to people: suddenly your own problems are not so important anymore and whatever they are, you kid of have to deal with them because a little one depends on you doing it.

So, the beginning of this quote kinda makes me think that this may be the wrong series for you. The basic premise of the Knights Radiant is the idea of broken people becoming better. The inherent premise requires a LOT of self-reflection and navel-gazing. That is the POINT of the character arcs in this book. If you find Dalinar to be a selfish person after all he has done to change himself, then I wonder what selflessness even looks like. In addition, that is what mental health issues are about. One of the first things in treatment of a mental health issue is to focus only on yourself and your own pain. The main ethos is that you can't help anyone if you haven't helped yourself which incidentally, is what Shallan thinks she is doing. 

As to the bolded segment of the quote: There are two primary problems with this line of reasoning. The first is that having a child does not magically make someone a better person. There is no reason to believe that a selfish person will automatically become selfless because of having a child. There are plenty of people who smoke and drink while pregnant, there are plenty of mother's who don't give a crap about their babies. The number of mothers who actually kill or severely harm their babies, whether intentionally or through neglect is depressingly high. If someone consider's themselves "the centre of the universe", becoming a mother is not necessarily gonna change that. The second issue is that OSDD is by definition a condition whose treatment requires introspection, and the ability to put yourself first. She NEEDS to think about her problems. Her condition arises from repressing her problems instead of thinking about them. If nothing else, a baby would give her an excuse for regressing and repressing. 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Of course, life is not always as peachy, but within the scope of a narrative having been guilty of focusing too much onto the internal problems of those Radiants, not enough on what they mean for everyone else, the idea of motherhood becomes incredibly interesting, IMHO.

To reiterate, the entire point of being a Radiant is focusing on and solving your internal problems. If you feel this is a narrative issue, I feel like this may be the wrong series for you, because that is one of the main purposes of the narrative.

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

And you have just summarize why I find Jasnah so uninteresting... She is a character who evolves for herself, just herself without encumbering herself with other people nor bothering about what other people may think. Everything she does is for her own personal quest, her own navel and if she wants to protect her family, save the world and everything, she will resolutely do it while not bothering herself with menial things such as inter-personal relationships. 

So, I feel it should be brought up that this is within Jasnah's rights to do as a human and a woman. There are people like this IRL. I understand if you find her uninteresting, but I don't think she becomes a lesser person for feeling how she does about inter-personal relationships.

5 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

On another note.. The topic has changes since yesterday, but I wanted to say something. I think it was one of your comments, @FuzzyWordsmith, on one of the previous pages, I can't find it right now, where you said something along the lines of Brandon failing as an author if this is the end/conclusion of Shallan's arc. Sorry if I'm remembering things wrong. I think that is unfair and it disregards all the wonderful job and writer and human Brandon is . I've also been very vocal about how poorly I think this arc has been handled and if this is the end of it, I am dissapointed, but you can't say that when Sanderson did and accomplished so much more than this. These books are so complex and have so many layers, that sometimes things have to be prioritized. Nobody is perfect and it's a shame everything can't have the turnout we want or expect, but not being able to do a character justice, is not the worst thing possible the grand scheme of things. I know it sends a wrong message, but Brandon isn't god. And while he bears some responsability, as we all do, to put a positive message in the world and be good members in our society, he never signed up for the job of giving life lessons through his books. I think he even says it at one point in a Q&A, that he doesn't want to preach or for people look at his books like lessons to live by. He writes the books as he sees fit and I think it;s impossible for him to bear the responsability of how people will interpret them. That would hurt his creative process, always being aware of how a certain thing could hurt or trigger anyone. Overall I think he expresses a great message and values through his work and yes, sometimes he might not be ideal or perfect. Of course, this is just my opinion, but Brandon's books gave me so much more, that even though I critizice him and I am upset about some things, I can't give up on him as an author only because of this. 

@mariapapadia So, I believe I may have worded my feelings poorly if this is what you took away from it. I should explain that OSDD is a very personal topic for me, and when I talked about Brandon failing, I didn't mean as an author generally. I still think he is an excellent author, one of the best of our time. However, I would feel as if he had failed me personally if this is how he handled it. It was because of how personal this subject and this arc is that I feel that way, but I do not think everyone will or even should consider it as such. I should have clarified that it was my specific feelings on the matter, not a general statement.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I think I have not phrased my words appropriately, I didn't mean to carry on the idea having children would magically solve Shallan's personal issues, but I thought it may solve the issues I have with her narrative which, still according to me, involved a great deal of navel grazing. As such, with a husband and children, I figured Shallan's character couldn't afford to spend another 1000 pages thinking about just herself. It wouldn't solve any issues, but at least, it would make for a more interesting narrative by giving her character hardships which aren't herself and the take on motherhood would be a nice addition to SA.

So, the point of the book seems to be solving personal issues. That has been the point of every single narrative in the series so far. Furthermore, treating OSDD is done almost exclusively through navel gazing, and thinking about only yourself. That is literally the medical solution to that. If that is your issue with the narrative, than I must reiterate that I don't understand if this is the right series for you.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Also, as I have said, there is a one year gap in between book 3 and 4, plenty of time for issues to start being managed without us having to read about them. I also do not read Shallan as unstable as most people within this thread. I felt OB brought resolution on this front and I expect her to progress from now on not to regress.

 

As someone who has had the exact same mental condition Shallan is going through, I must vehemently disagree that she is not unstable and she is progressing instead of regressing. In addition, no one else managed and solved their personal issues off screen. Again, this seems to be the point of the books. Why would we not read about Shallan's case?

3 hours ago, maxal said:

My issues with Dalinar also are narrative related more than character related: I don't mind his character is selfish and self-absorbed, I mind his narrative didn't include him or Navani pondering on how his behavior might have affected his sons. The lack of exploration within the various characters relationships is one of my main critic for this book. While I love the flashbacks, I thought Dalinar's main narrative was... boring. Had Brandon make the character explore his relationship with his sons, it would have make it more interesting, IMHO, but YMMV.

Dalinar at this point in his life is one of the LEAST selfish and self-absorbed people in the book. He does think of how badly he treated his sons. If you consider the narrative boring, then I must ask you: What makes you enjoy the Stormlight Archive? Your problems seem to be with some of the main pillars of the series. Epic fantasy as a genre inherently puts less focus on small scale dynamics than it does on things like saving the world.

Edited November 27, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[firegazer]

6 minutes ago, straits said:

This is probably related to how people view storyline continuity within a book. I don't see there being a resolution within this book, and instead wait for it in the next one. I understand why you could classify this as poor writing. And I agree on the Sadeas sub-plot. 

I think that's where we differ. It's because of the Sadeas sub-plot and some of the other sub-plots which we have had mostly confirmed as non-explorable in future books (scenes utterly skipped, entire sub-plots wrapped up with an unsatisfactory line or two), that I have solid reason to worry that this IS the resolution of Shallan's plot. That is exactly why I think people here are uneasy. There is good textual evidence to make a SOLID argument that Sanderson might well have ended Shallan's plot with a single, unsatisfactory scene. "I am getting married, and things are now better" could well be the resolution, in the greater context of the rest of the book.

I am not, as a result, expressing that I am dropping this series right here and now. I am already disappointed with many of the choices he has made as an author, but I am hanging on because the rest of the elements in the series are quite good. I AM expressing a certain uneasiness with the idea that the next book may upset the last bit of my sensibilities and MAY force me to drop the series.

[mariapapadia she/her]

33 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I have an actual list of criteria I use when I am editing work. It's how I'm able to do it in the first place. In general, though not 100% of the time, I have found this list to be true to how well readers enjoy the work. I have absolutely no problem with the idea of using tropes in writing. Tropes generally become tropes for a reason, and it would be impossible to write a book without using them. But some tropes have better foundations than others, and others have a greater meaning within the context of the society in which they developed, and within their CURRENT society. The arranged marriage trope is a literary crime at this point, in my opinion, especially from male authors. There's no need for it. There are a hundred other tropes you could choose as an author which would not bring up very thorny issues as a reflection on current society. We have only just (relatively speaking) gotten to the point where women have more freedom and more ability to advocate for themselves. Traditionally, arranged marriage WAS an example of the commoditization of women and the devaluing of their worth to society as quite literally a vessel to make heirs and represent family alliances. It still IS an example of this in many areas of the world. We are not free of its negative connotations, and I am therefore getting tired of seeing male authors get away with using it as a trope when they should certainly know better by now -- especially when I know that said authors are creative enough to make different choices.

In short, while I am sure that Sanderson has the ability to write out certain conflicts in a satisfying manner, I am tired enough of these conflicts that I don't see the need for them to be written AT ALL, and certainly not through the lens of a male author. Even the placement of Shallan into a commoditized situation bothered me -- the decision to make that commoditization bloom into a relationship bothers me more. The fact that the character progression leading up to this resolution seemed poorly written was icing on the cake. It's a layered problem.

I understand where you are coming from with this, but I belive that when people say "arranged marriage", they mostly think at "forced marriage". Which I don't feel is the case here. I would consider this more along the lines of "suggested marriage" .I will have to go back and check, but the way I read it and remember, this situation was presented to both Shallan and Adolin and they were excited about the prospect of having that weight lifted off their shoulders. They weren't forced into it and they were given the option of agreeing with it or not. And I think that says a lot about the way the trope and the gender roles were handled in this instance. It didn't feel to me that Shallan was to be beneath Adolin in this whole situation. That she freaks out and puts this image of "the perfect bride" and goes to incredible extents in order to preserve that, is another story. 

[Darvys]

14 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I think that's where we differ. It's because of the Sadeas sub-plot and some of the other sub-plots which we have had mostly confirmed as non-explorable in future books

The difference is that there was never any evidence pointing to the existence of a Sadeas sub-plot, it was blown out of proportion by the fans, you shouldn't expect the author to pander to it. As for the skipped scenes, yes there are some that would have been interesting to watch, but that doesn't come close to comparing to the hamfisted way some readers believe the author is treating this arc. I believe your scepticism is something of an overreaction.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Darvys

[AubreyWrites she/her]

8 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I belive that when people say "arranged marriage", they mostly think at "forced marriage". Which I don't feel is the case here. I would consider this more along the lines of "suggested marriage" .

I agree. I read this whole causal arrangement as basically 'if the blind date turns out good then we can progress to the possibility of marriage.'

Both had the agency to break the causal. Many people today still go out in dates set up by someone else. Some end in marriage and some don't. The causal was set in place to see if it would work out. 

I think this functions differently from the "arranged marriage" we are used to seeing in a lot of fiction

Edited November 26, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[ZenBossanova]

One thing I haven't noticed being mentioned, is that if Jasnah is Queen, then she will have to think about continuing her family line. 

I have no argument against those who point out her animus against men, or her asexuality, or who point out romance would be unnecessary for her. But continuing her family line/dynasty will be something she doesn't take lightly. 

An alternative here might be young Gavinor or any children Adolin & Shallan might have. 

[firegazer]

6 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I understand where you are coming from with this, but I belive that when people say "arranged marriage", they mostly think at "forced marriage". Which I don't feel is the case here. I would consider this more along the lines of "suggested marriage" .I will have to go back and check, but the way I read it and remember, this situation was presented to both Shallan and Adolin and they were excited about the prospect of having that weight lifted off their shoulders.

The issue here is broader than that. In a society where an arranged marriage is seen as a viable way out of the troubles which Shallan was having, there's an element of coercion that has less to do with specific characters doing the coercion and more to do with the society and her circumstances doing it. That's part of what deeply bothered me about it. I understand it's not as bad, but it's still a squick.

I would have much preferred to see her realize that she has a rare opportunity within this society to gain what she needs for herself and her family without the need for a marriage. Instead, she decided "well, I like him, I'll marry him anyway." I'm not sure I have the energy left tonight to get into all the weird implications of this, but I hope this gives some minor sense of where the problems start.

[firegazer]

2 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

One thing I haven't noticed being mentioned, is that if Jasnah is Queen, then she will have to think about continuing her family line. 

 

I am hoping that Sanderson keeps her as steward, rather than queen proper. In that respect, she's only standing in for the king-to-be, which would be Gavinor when he is old enough.

[ZenBossanova]

1 minute ago, firegazer said:

I am hoping that Sanderson keeps her as steward, rather than queen proper. In that respect, she's only standing in for the king-to-be, which would be Gavinor when he is old enough.

I agree, but they specifically said that would be a bad idea in the middle of a Desolation. 

[firegazer]

Just now, ZenBossanova said:

I agree, but they specifically said that would be a bad idea in the middle of a Desolation. 

In which case, Jasnah is a fan of Thaylenah in some respects. I hope she decides to emulate their method of choosing succession based on merit rather than based on blood.

This is another one of those situations where I feel there are a million other alternatives than just twisting Jasnah's characterization and forcing her into having a child for the sake of societal norms which the author himself chose and can therefore decide to change.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

For me this thread ultimately boils down to faith in Brandon.  I'd be happy to see Shallan's relationships evolve in many possible directions (or for her to end up single for that matter) as long as I believed in it and felt the outcome was properly earned.  But this is not the case as of the end of OB.  She rushed into something while in an unstable place and for the wrong reasons.

But, we are 3 books into an arc of 5 (ultimately 10).  There are tons of other big things that are unresolved as of the end of OB.  When I think about, eg. how unconvinced I am by the explanation we were given for the cause of the Recreance, I don't worry for a moment that Brandon has written this poorly.  Instead I think ho hum, there are secrets here waiting to be explored in the next book...

So why DO I (plus it seems many others) worry about Shallan's marriage to Adolin?  I've been pondering this and believe it has several root causes:

1. Brandon has not in the past been the most deft at writing romances.  Not that he's terrible at it, just not one of his strengths.
2. He has a habit of writing arranged marriages that develop into true love with minimal hurdles along the way.
3. Marriages in his books always seem stable and trouble free (even Sadeas and Ialai appeared happily married!)
4. Stable, permanent marriages align with what we know of Brandon's personal life and religious beliefs

So we look at these things, and worry that when Brandon writes "they got married" this means "and they lived happily ever after - the end".  Which is not ok!  Note I'm not advocating for any specific path of further development, as there are many options that could work.  They just have to include the fact that Shallan is a mess and has a lot more work to do  (ideally without hurting either Adolin or Kaladin too much, as I love both of them).

BUT...

A unique thing about Brandon among writers I have followed closely is that he seems unusually self aware about his limitations as well as strengths.  A big part of why the romance elements in his previous books did not bother me is that he was smart enough not to place excessive focus on something that was not his strong spot.  Stormlight is stretching his writing skills in many different directions at once, but challenging himself and increasing his skills is exactly what I've seen him do all the way through his career.

I've come to believe I can trust him on this, for two main reasons:

First is the incredibly realistic and insightful handling of mental illness across all three of these books.  Apparently Brandon has personal experience of depression in family members, but he has also obviously done a lot of research before writing this material.  His portrayals are consistently nuanced and spot on.  In OB, I particularly appreciated Kaladin freezing instead of speaking the Fourth Ideal (thank you thank you for not making his depression just go away forever after he got to a better place in life and learned a couple of coping strategies!)  Also the details of how we saw both Dalinar and Teft fall off the wagon - that's exactly how addiction works.  Brandon obviously gets it.  He would not write these characters so accurately, but then prematurely declare Shallan "fixed" in an unrealistic and implausible way.

Secondly is the interlude scene with the ardent reading a romance novel.  This is more than just Brandon trolling the shippers among his fanbase.  He is telling us that he understands the romance genre well enough to pastiche a cliched and poorly written love triangle, and finds that ridiculous enough to poke fun at it.  In other words, "don't worry folks, I know what I'm doing here".

TLDR:  don't panic yet.  Shallan's story is not finished.  Brandon knows what he is doing.

[mariapapadia she/her]

49 minutes ago, firegazer said:

The issue here is broader than that. In a society where an arranged marriage is seen as a viable way out of the troubles which Shallan was having, there's an element of coercion that has less to do with specific characters doing the coercion and more to do with the society and her circumstances doing it. That's part of what deeply bothered me about it. I understand it's not as bad, but it's still a squick.

I would have much preferred to see her realize that she has a rare opportunity within this society to gain what she needs for herself and her family without the need for a marriage. Instead, she decided "well, I like him, I'll marry him anyway." I'm not sure I have the energy left tonight to get into all the weird implications of this, but I hope this gives some minor sense of where the problems start.

I see your point, though I think we get this aspect in the form of Jasnah's character, who despite  all norms and pressure is strong on her own and doesn't feel the need for a marriage. Being a woman myself, I love reading about strong women and don;t think the only way a woman can become that is if she chooses not to get married when given the option. I think society today only views empowered women as Jasnah's type, but for me an e.w. is one that is confident and comfortable with her choices despite how others think she should be. Thus I think that Shallan's choice of marrying Adolin, not only because it was an easy way out, could've been a sign of her empowerment. But as the majority agrees, including myself, this conclusion has been reached in a poorly manner and so far it implies an unhealthy resolution for her. 

 

This is a tangent here, but I remembered something along these lines that happened a while ago in the media.

Spoiler

Emma Watson appeared on the cover of a magazine in some revealing clothes and despite her being such a big advocate for feminism she got a lot of harsh critiques for that, people saying she makes a deservice to the cause and all that bla bla. She then responded that one aspect of feminism is about giving women the posibility to make the choices they want, regardless of what other men or women thing about that. 

Another instance that comes to mind that supports this claim, is a song from Marina and the Dimonds, Can't pin me down. Which has these particular lirics at one point 

Quote

You might think I'm one thing,
But I am another
You can't call my bluff
Time to back off, motherstormer

Do you really want me to write a feminist anthem
I'm happy cooking dinner in the kitchen for my husband

I took that as some women might be happy to have a husband, to take care of the family and at the same time be other things and not only being labled and dissmissed as "housewives". It's about being given the freedom to make your own choices without being put in a box. 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[mariapapadia she/her]

9 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

...

Ohhh! Thank you so much for this! In the midst of all that happenend in OB, not only Shallan's arc, but other things I wasn't happy with, I was more than a bit dissapointed, but for some reason your post brought back to my mind some of great things I love about Brandon 

[Dreamstorm]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I think the thread is mistaken: Adolin is not the glue. Adolin merely is the vector by which Shallan remembers Shallan exists. Her whole story arc was about her hating Shallan so much she wanted her to go away, her whole story arc was written in a way which highlights how much easier it is for Shallan to stop existing and to sink into either Veil or Radiant. I felt the whole purpose of her story arc was to stop hating Shallan for what Shallan was forced to do, to start carrying on her pain, but to stop thinking she deserves it. It was about Shallan making her decision and stopping letting Veil or Radiant take them for her or mistaken what the Veil and the Radiant personas would prefer, based on the characteristics she gave them.

As thus I never read Adolin as being the glue, he's just the guy who actually loved Shallan, the very one Shallan the real Shallan has spent 1000 pages hating so much she wanted her to disappear. Choosing him was arguably the hardest path, it was choosing herself, the real Shallan and to stop giving way to the much easier path of forgetting Shallan. The way I read it is Shallan couldn't forget her memories again, because she said the truths, but instead she forged personas whom never had to deal with those truths, personas whom aren't broken, but then Veil broke and Shallan was forced to face the truth once again.

This being said, I do agree the love triangle didn't exactly live up to the expectations. It could definitely have been explored into a more fulfilling manner.

I meant to respond to this.  The way I read this, is that she lets Adolin choose which persona is "her" ("There, she thought.  That's the one.  That's the one I am."), which is the opposite of actually accepting her true self, as her true self would incorporate all of her personas.  On the next page, we see Radiant and Veil as still very active parts of her internal dialogue.  ("She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain.  They were not her.  She was occasionally them.  But they were not her.")  Unless one believes that this is actually accurate and healthy (that these alternate personas are subjects to sometimes morph into but otherwise not really part of "actual" Shallan), I don't see how this can be interpreted as Adolin actually choosing the "real" Shallan; Shallan's not integrated with her personalities, so there is no "real" Shallan for Adolin to choose.  I agree that Adolin very much wants to love all of Shallan, but at the moment, there is not a full Shallan for Adolin to love.  (Something she is open about when she tells him she wants to be with him - that she is "Three betrotheds instead of one".)  He says wants the real her, and she says, "That might be the hardest one.  But I think I can do it, Adolin.  With some help, maybe?"  So we're back to the fact Shallan is still fractured, and the best case scenario is she's asking Adolin to help find the real her...  (More likely, given what she said earlier, she's asking Adolin to help identify the Shallan persona she should be/wants to be most of the time.)  Later on, in the last chapter, she says the much maligned "Without you, I fade." line, which doesn't cut against the fact that she's relying on Adolin for, I guess, her existence and feels like she can't independently support herself/her personas.  Of course, the three personas are still there in her very last viewpoint, so either this is the permanent state for Shallan (can we at least agree that isn't healthy??) or she has a lot more work to do...  I don't think it's at all impossible for Adolin to help her work through her issues (though I think most of this will be a struggle for Shallan to work through on her own, but Adolin is very good at being a supportive partner), but I can't see the reading that at the end of OB there is even a "real" Shallan for anyone (either Shallan herself or Adolin) to know and love.

[DeployParachute]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

8 hours? Try 18 hours...  Also nine months of pregnancy is a walk in the park because the media industry loves to make people believe there is nothing daunting in being pregnant and it will obviously be the most glorious 9 months of your life 

8 hours for 2nd Stage (aka Hard or Active) Labor, with transition and then pushing.  Counting First Stage, we're talking closer to 20 hrs total.  If you experienced 18 hours of Hard labor, hats off to you, cause 8 certainly seemed like more than enough to my wife and I.  Cheers.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

8 hours for 2nd Stage (aka Hard or Active) Labor, with transition and then pushing.  Counting First Stage, we're talking closer to 20 hrs total.  If you experienced 18 hours of Hard labor, hats off to you, cause 8 certainly seemed like more than enough to my wife and I.  Cheers.

It was provoked, so yeah it was 18 hours of labor which ended up in a C-section. I never tell my first childbirth to new mothers to be. Like. Ever. Good way to scare them into wishing they got pregnant in the first place  I tell them afterwards  Having the kid is not always easy...