[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Diomedes]

So on a different note altogether, I found this little passage of Shallan

Quote

Ash`s eyes... he actually thought she was pretty. This wonderful, princely man actually liked being with her. (...) compared to Adolin`s affections all the sights of Urithiru were dun spheres. OB, p.147.

Ough. So Shallan thinks Adolin likes being around her because she is pretty? This entire relationship seems to be a means to feed Shallan`s ego. Adolin gives her a reason to feel special; Having a prince as boyfriend and being told she is pretty.  

Quote

Toward a celebration. Of being herself. OB. p.1226

Everyone interpreted this wedding scene as a sign that she has accepted herself now (or not). But this is Shallan`s wedding. This is a celebration of the bond between husband and wife. This should not be about Shallan herself! 

Shallan reeally needs to get out off the ego trip. 

Until she doesn`t do that... well a newly born baby would not be helpful. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Shallan reeally needs to get out off the ego trip. 

Can't wait until Adolin wants something from her for once and isn't the content husband

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I can actually see a wonderful way this could have gone... Shallan could have taken Wit's advice in Kholinar, and that could have been her breaking point.  Instead of seeing increased switching between personalities and reliance on that fracturing, she worked to coalesce her personalities.  Adolin is Adolin and supportive as always.  In the Battle of TC, Shallan speaks a truth (maybe "I am one person and I accept my past actions"?, ok that's more an oath than a truth, but I'm sure Brandon could find something) and gets her shardplate (man, I would love for a woman to be first to shardplate!), being our first Radiant to level 5.  Afterwards, Adolin has his same crisis of conscious about not being a Radiant, Shallan gives a version of her "don't be silly, I love you" speech, and then they get married.  I'm actually getting rather attached to this storyline!  ETA:  I think Shallan having a child and exploring motherhood in this option is fantastic, too.

 

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

See. This is a version of it that I could have very, very much lived with. It looks and feels sincere. Instead, we get this mess we have now as you already have stated.

But then again, this wouldn't have needed the hinting at Kaladin either.

I think you have placed your dissatisfaction at the situation the characters have found themselves in, onto the author's literary decisions. The author has decided to inflict the consequences of short-sighted decision making and mental trauma onto the characters' lives. This is a valid chain of events, and there is no reason or compulsion to neatly resolve Shallan's arc in OB for the sake of placating a reader's sentiment.

@Dreamstorm, the events that you have outlined at your post are not really a "plausible" alternative to what the author wrote. They are feel-good wishcasting, and that is not a reasonable thing to demand of an author.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, straits said:

I think you have placed your dissatisfaction at the situation the characters have found themselves in, onto the author's literary decisions. The author has decided to inflict the consequences of short-sighted decision making and mental trauma onto the characters' lives. This is a valid chain of events, and there is no reason or compulsion to neatly resolve Shallan's arc in OB for the sake of placating a reader's sentiment.

I... uh... what?

I'll be only dissatisfied, if this mental trauma suddenly dissolves, that is what I've said again and again. I'm dissatisfied, that we're having virtually a cliffhanger of where Shallan's condition goes, but I don't think, that that I am alone in this and that that is a 'wrong' feeling to have.

And then again? What is wrong with voicing dissatisfaction?

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

Just now, SLNC said:

I... uh... what?

I'll be only dissatisfied, if this mental trauma suddenly dissolves, that is what I've said again and again. I'm dissatisfied, that we're having virtually a cliffhanger of where Shallan's condition goes, but I don't think, that that I am alone in this and that that is a 'wrong' feeling to have.

But it has not been suddenly resolved, as demonstrated by references to Veil at the end of the book, and Adolin's acceptance of her. And I don't see how you expected any sort of resolution for a deep-seated mental illness at the end of the book, when the illness only really manifested as a problem in the same book (in the space of a few months in the story). So this "cliffhanger" is mostly the consequence of logistics, unless you expect a 4000 page book to neatly tie up any reader's pet peeves.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, straits said:

But it has not been suddenly resolved, as demonstrated by references to Veil at the end of the book, and Adolin's acceptance of her. And I don't see how you expected any sort of resolution for a deep-seated mental illness at the end of the book, when the illness only really manifested as a problem in the same book (in the space of a few months in the story). So this "cliffhanger" is mostly the consequence of logistics, unless you expect a 4000 page book to neatly tie up any reader's pet peeves.

I understand why the plot moved in the direction it moved it, but it doesn't mean that I have to be happy with it? I can't change it, I accept that, but am I not allowed to be dissatisfied? And who are you to dismiss my worries as 'pet peeves'?

[straits]

Just now, SLNC said:

I understand why the plot moved in the direction it moved it, but it doesn't mean that I have to be happy with it? I can't change it, I accept that, but am I not allowed to be dissatisfied? And who are you to dismiss my worries as 'pet peeves'?

It's not a dismissal, there's nothing wrong with having a pet peeve in a book. And of course you don't have to be happy with the conclusion of OB.

But you and a few other readers have laid out the case for why you are dissatisfied with the conclusion of this particular arc within OB. And I think there is nothing wrong with me challenging that.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, straits said:

And I think there is nothing wrong with me challenging that.

But I always understood the logic behind what Brandon did... I'm just not agreeing with it. I thought that was quite clear.

Let's stop this useless back-and-forth before it becomes senseless mudslinging.

[Darvys]

Wow, was rereading part 3 and noted a disturbing bit of dialogue in chapter 74 :

  “Mmmm … Why are you so happy about feeding so few?”
  “Feeding these few is something we can do.”
  “So is jumping from a building,” he said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.”
  “Veil.”
  “Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.”

Of course Shallan then went on with her day as if nothing disturbing just happened.

Pattern seeming oblivious to his use of sarcasm as opposed to satisfied humming which implies an actual lack of understanding of both her simple statement and what sarcasm is, talking drowsily ... Is it too late to jump in the "Pattern is dying" bandwagon ?

For the people looking for similarities with Syl's case, how's this for you ?

[AubreyWrites]

@Darvys great spot!! Have an upvote! 

[straits]

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But I always understood the logic behind what Brandon did... I'm just not agreeing with it. I thought that was quite clear.

Let's stop this useless back-and-forth before it becomes senseless mudslinging.

Of course - the only thing that was really objectionable to me is suggesting what the author should or should not write, but I don't think any reader's dissatisfaction is invalid regardless.

Part of why I defend the way this was written, is that I believe that a book doesn't necessarily need to be modular in every aspect - having unresolved issues makes the reading experience more authentic for me, but this is subjective.

19 minutes ago, Darvys said:

...

Of course Shallan then went on with her day as if nothing disturbing just happened.

Pattern seeming oblivious to his use of sarcasm as opposed to satisfied humming which implies an actual lack of understanding of both her simple statement and what sarcasm is, talking drowsily ... Is it too late to jump in the "Pattern is dying" bandwagon ?

For the people looking for similarities with Syl's case, how's this for you ?

Those were exactly my thoughts, and I was baffled at how Shallan reacted at the way Pattern began to fade. Did she have trouble manipulating Stormlight afterwards? Kaladin had problems with his abilities when Syl weakened due to his poor adherence to oaths.

[AubreyWrites]

This post is a mistake- can't figure it how to delete. Sorry

Edited November 26, 2017 by AubreyWrites
Mistake

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, straits said:

the only thing that was really objectionable to me is suggesting what the author should or should not write

Maybe I wasn't so clear as I hoped then

I, by no means, want to suggest, that an author should write in a certain way. An author is an artist and an artist should have certain freedoms and even if this "cliffhanger", that is how I see it anyway, has left me dissatisfied, I'll still keep buying Brandon's books, because the rest of the book was superb.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[jamskinner]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

No, I stand behind my opinion, that when you release something to the public you have some (not sole) responsibility to educate, especially when you touch real world issues on which the general public still has no good knowledge about.

Your choice

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, straits said:

 

I think you have placed your dissatisfaction at the situation the characters have found themselves in, onto the author's literary decisions. The author has decided to inflict the consequences of short-sighted decision making and mental trauma onto the characters' lives. This is a valid chain of events, and there is no reason or compulsion to neatly resolve Shallan's arc in OB for the sake of placating a reader's sentiment.

@Dreamstorm, the events that you have outlined at your post are not really a "plausible" alternative to what the author wrote. They are feel-good wishcasting, and that is not a reasonable thing to demand of an author.

Oh, sorry, maybe my point in writing that wasn't clear. I was trying to craft what I would consider a satisfactory "happy ever after" for Adolin and Shallan (to follow up on trying to point out the connection they do have in the book.) I don't think this could have happened in the book we have. I don't think it could have happened after WoR (mainly because of all of the Kaladin stuff), but I do think there is enough Adolin/Shallan foundation in the books that if it was shifted around there could be a solid foundation for a healthy relationship. Not at all saying the book should have had this plot, but just as a thought exercise pointing out how I would have been happy getting to a Shallan/Adolin marriage conclusion. Does this make sense at all? 

46 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Wow, was rereading part 3 and noted a disturbing bit of dialogue in chapter 74 :

  “Mmmm … Why are you so happy about feeding so few?”
  “Feeding these few is something we can do.”
  “So is jumping from a building,” he said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.”
  “Veil.”
  “Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.”

Of course Shallan then went on with her day as if nothing disturbing just happened.

Pattern seeming oblivious to his use of sarcasm as opposed to satisfied humming which implies an actual lack of understanding of both her simple statement and what sarcasm is, talking drowsily ... Is it too late to jump in the "Pattern is dying" bandwagon ?

For the people looking for similarities with Syl's case, how's this for you ?

Oh, good catch!!

[straits]

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Maybe I wasn't so clear as I hoped then

I, by no means, want to suggest, that an author should write in a certain way. An author is an artist and an artist should have certain freedoms and even if this "cliffhanger", that is how I see it anyway, has left me dissatisfied, I'll still keep buying Brandon's books, because the rest of the book was superb.

Yeah, I understand that from your further explanation. Also, something that I have personally accepted over years of reading is that art is a dictatorship, not a democracy

[straits]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

Oh, sorry, maybe my point in writing that wasn't clear. I was trying to craft what I would consider a satisfactory "happy ever after" for Adolin and Shallan (to follow up on trying to point out the connection they do have in the book.) I don't think this could have happened in the book we have. I don't think it could have happened after WoR (mainly because of all of the Kaladin stuff), but I do think there is enough Adolin/Shallan foundation in the books that if it was shifted around there could be a solid foundation for a healthy relationship. Not at all saying the book should have had this plot, but just as a thought exercise pointing out how I would have been happy getting to a Shallan/Adolin marriage conclusion. Does this make sense at all? 

It does make sense. I guess the one thing where we differ is that I am currently enjoying the way the author has expanded on the mental trauma these characters have suffered, and propagated the consequences into the lives of several characters. It is (so far) more interesting than a happily ever after, and feels realistic, if not so happy.

But if the problems Shallan has with her psyche just magically disappear in book 4 after Adolin's exacerbation of her dissociative disorder, I'll be dissatisfied as well. It is the opposite of what is being set up here.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, straits said:

But if the problems Shallan has with her psyche just magically disappear in book 4 after Adolin's exacerbation of her dissociative disorder, I'll be dissatisfied as well. It is the opposite of what is being set up here.

So we agree after all.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think the big consternation on this thread is that Brandon thinks he did what you see... "solve" Shallan's fractured personality issues by making Adolin the glue which holds her together.  If that's the case, it clearly was done in a way which left many people unconvinced (/extremely concerned with how that portrays a female character/character with mental health issues).  (This is not even taking into account how this would make all of the page time and foreshadowing spent on Shallan/Kaladin a waste, which would be not great writing in my opinion, especially considering the consistent complaint I see about OB is that scenes were left out.  Brandon should have cut all of the Shallan/Kaladin romantic stuff in WoR and OB and spent it elsewhere if it had no and very little payoff.  I would have much rather read about Shallan and Adolin's relationship!  Or Jasnah and Navani!  Or Dalinar and Szeth!  Or really anything else...)  I'd love to see you, or another person who finds that Shallan's fractured personality arc was satisfactorily concluded, answer @PhineasGage's questions above.  I can support the Shallan/Adolin relationship, and think it really could have been good, but I can't support how it was presented and what was presented around it (all of the Kaladin foreshadowing.) 

I think the thread is mistaken: Adolin is not the glue. Adolin merely is the vector by which Shallan remembers Shallan exists. Her whole story arc was about her hating Shallan so much she wanted her to go away, her whole story arc was written in a way which highlights how much easier it is for Shallan to stop existing and to sink into either Veil or Radiant. I felt the whole purpose of her story arc was to stop hating Shallan for what Shallan was forced to do, to start carrying on her pain, but to stop thinking she deserves it. It was about Shallan making her decision and stopping letting Veil or Radiant take them for her or mistaken what the Veil and the Radiant personas would prefer, based on the characteristics she gave them.

As thus I never read Adolin as being the glue, he's just the guy who actually loved Shallan, the very one Shallan the real Shallan has spent 1000 pages hating so much she wanted her to disappear. Choosing him was arguably the hardest path, it was choosing herself, the real Shallan and to stop giving way to the much easier path of forgetting Shallan. The way I read it is Shallan couldn't forget her memories again, because she said the truths, but instead she forged personas whom never had to deal with those truths, personas whom aren't broken, but then Veil broke and Shallan was forced to face the truth once again.

This being said, I do agree the love triangle didn't exactly live up to the expectations. It could definitely have been explored into a more fulfilling manner.

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

...

I think I have not phrased my words appropriately, I didn't mean to carry on the idea having children would magically solve Shallan's personal issues, but I thought it may solve the issues I have with her narrative which, still according to me, involved a great deal of navel grazing. As such, with a husband and children, I figured Shallan's character couldn't afford to spend another 1000 pages thinking about just herself. It wouldn't solve any issues, but at least, it would make for a more interesting narrative by giving her character hardships which aren't herself and the take on motherhood would be a nice addition to SA.

Also, as I have said, there is a one year gap in between book 3 and 4, plenty of time for issues to start being managed without us having to read about them. I also do not read Shallan as unstable as most people within this thread. I felt OB brought resolution on this front and I expect her to progress from now on not to regress.

My issues with Dalinar also are narrative related more than character related: I don't mind his character is selfish and self-absorbed, I mind his narrative didn't include him or Navani pondering on how his behavior might have affected his sons. The lack of exploration within the various characters relationships is one of my main critic for this book. While I love the flashbacks, I thought Dalinar's main narrative was... boring. Had Brandon make the character explore his relationship with his sons, it would have make it more interesting, IMHO, but YMMV.

[straits]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

So we agree after all.

I have absolute faith in our author's delivery 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

As thus I never read Adolin as being the glue, he's just the guy who actually loved Shallan, the very one Shallan the real Shallan has spent 1000 pages hating so much she wanted her to disappear. Choosing him was arguably the hardest path, it was choosing herself, the real Shallan and to stop giving way to the much easier path of forgetting Shallan.

But he has never seen the real Shallan. Shallan herself admits it.

Quote

Could she . . . become that someone? Craft for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin? It wouldn’t be her. The real her was a bruised and sorry thing, painted up all pretty, but inside a horrid mess. She already put a face over that for him.

Note, that horrid mess is what she still is. Due to still not accepting the Ideal, the Truth, that she killed her mother, that she spoke. Her fracturing herself into Shallan, Veil and Radiant? That was a consequence of being that horrid mess, but not what is really wrong with her. What is wrong with her is that she still hates the Shallan, she was before. Before she fractured herself, which is the quintessence of what Wit tried to tell her. Forgive yourself and become the woman you've always been, even if it will hurt. Stop being just a shade of yourself. The real Shallan is Shallan + Veil + Radiant, but not seperated, together. Just as they have been for a moment during the Battle of TC.

Quote

Shallan, Veil, and Radiant held hands in a ring. The three flowed, faces changing, identities melding. Together, they had raised an army.

She isn't the real Shallan. Whenever she is Shallan, she is the Shallan, that she thinks Adolin wants to see. The way he deals with Veil as a different person as Shallan cements her line of thought in that.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

As thus I never read Adolin as being the glue, he's just the guy who actually loved Shallan, the very one Shallan the real Shallan has spent 1000 pages hating so much she wanted her to disappear. Choosing him was arguably the hardest path, it was choosing herself, the real Shallan and to stop giving way to the much easier path of forgetting Shallan. The way I read it is Shallan couldn't forget her memories again, because she said the truths, but instead she forged personas whom never had to deal with those truths, personas whom aren't broken, but then Veil broke and Shallan was forced to face the truth once again

If this is the resolution and Shallan chose herself then why didn't  Veil and Radiant reintegrate into her. Instead she's actually talking to both of them as if they are separate people right before her wedding....

[firegazer]

I must admit to being terribly confused at all of the “I trust Sanderson” talk. I trust him to be a fantastic author on metaplot, internal consistency, and plot twist moments. His combat scenes are generally well-written. I do not under any circumstances trust him to write: romance, female characters, or the relationships that female characters share with their society and other characters within it. He has definitely made progress on all of these scores, and I can tell he wants to work on these things; he talks about it openly, in fact. The first two books of the Stormlight Archive had me reconsidering my opinion of his skills here and thinking that he might have overcome these issues he’s had as an author. This book has convinced me I’m not yet ready to trust him implicitly in these areas, however.

I wouldn’t call myself a shipper of any kind, exactly. I’ve never particularly had a preference for who should end up with whom, given that I read books a bit more objectively than most people I know — I’m generally more cognizant of characters as ideas expressed by the author than I am “immersed” in them and thinking of them as people. Given my literary background, however, I tend to be good at picking out story flow and character building. By book two, I got the distinct impression that Sanderson was leading up to a relationship between Shallan and Kaladin, which surprised me given his past treatment of arranged marriages. Due to the way the books read, I gained a pleasant expectation that he might subvert himself here and break with past boxes he’s put himself into. This book annoyed me mostly because he seemed to reverse himself on that and regress back to old habits — he also did so in a way that seemed a bit of a muddled mess of setting up reader expectations and failing to fulfill them. As a reader, you may appreciate the idea of a story where not everything has a meaning, but most readers simply are not like that. I myself don’t enjoy wasting time reading scenes that don’t contribute to the overall story in some way, especially when I feel that space could have been better used to develop other underdeveloped storylines or characters. I will, however, admit that I get unreasonably irritated by poor craftsmanship, even and especially if the author has shown they are capable in other ways. That is fully on me.

I suppose what I’m saying is that this entire thing felt to me unnecessary. I also felt baited into thinking Sanderson was going to try something outside his usual box, and was disappointed when he pulled back from the edge for no discernible reason. He has often displayed a lack of focus and direction with romantic plots which doesn’t show up in the rest of his writing, such that I generally end up wishing he hadn’t tried to insert romance at all.

I suspect that some people here are in fact just upset that their favoured ship did not “win,” which is natural and fairly common judging from other fandoms. I suspect the real angst here is coming from a sudden lack of trust in the author, however, given that his writing up until now on this particular series has been very tight and careful, and it has now gone in strangely undisciplined directions all at once. Readers are now no longer sure that anything in the text has meaning in the way they once assumed that everything did — Sanderson has dropped too many foreshadowing hints now that failed to come to fruition. Thus everyone here is even more upset and talking themselves in circles, and I suspect unwilling to admit that all of their careful speculations due to text analysis are useless because of Sanderson’s struggles with romance coming to the forefront. To be clear to anyone reading this: I recommend that you stop trying to predict where he is going to go with anything romance related, as he often departs from his usual techniques and flails a bit when it comes to romance. Techniques that work to help you understand where he is going with metaplot WILL fail when it comes to romance. You may as well be rolling dice.

As I said, I am perhaps unnecessarily harsh when it comes to this aspect of Sanderson’s writing. He really is my favourite author for a lot of things, and I always recommend him to aspiring fantasy authors for worldbuilding and plot twists. He normally builds arcs fantastically well, and he plans very far ahead. But I always have to caution women I know that they will find his ideas about arranged marriage annoying and perhaps even mildly creepy. Siri’s relationship with a much older, developmentally stunted man is one of these issues, and that something the author made a conscious choice to explore. Similarly, in a pure fantasy novel where he has complete control over the society, he once again CHOSE to push a patriarchal, primogeniture based society which pushes arranged marriages and the disempowerment of women. I’ve read enough of this from male authors to last me a lifetime. I would be happy to read a female perspective on it, but other than that, I could do without ever reading another “but it’s based on the real medieval ages I just HAD to do it!” from a male author ever again. Yawn. Double yawn, with a healthy side of irritation at the lack of creativity.

Similarly, I don’t want to read a male author writing main female character as young mother in a patriarchal society, whether he subverts expectations or not. I would rather see him subvert expectations by having the female main character not be pushed into motherhood at all. That would be much more creative, unprecedented, and outside of the boxes he created for himself when he arbitrarily decided to write Yet Another Patriarchal Fantasy Society in the first place.

Unforunately, all signs I see so far point to Sanderson blithely continuing in the direction he seems to be going in this book. Which is sad, because I now intend to wait on buying the next book. If I hear that Shallan is now a mother from first readers after it’s released, I’ll be dropping him as an author. I’m simply not interested in it as a plot line for all kinds of reasons, mostly meta in nature. I am not saying that I expect many other readers to do this as well, or even that they should. I’m just getting persnickety in my old age and less patient with outdated authorial choices. I’d rather spend my time looking for gems from less refined but more unique female authors if this is going to be a constant battle with my current favourite.

[AllomancerSam]

Long time lurker, occasional poster (but almost never in these kinds of threads) here, and I just want to say: thank goodness for this thread. I am so happy that I'm the only one who wasn't satisfied with how everything played out re: Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin. I finished the book on Tuesday and I was just so incredibly disheartened. I loved 95% of OB with everything I have but I could not get passed this one thing. I initially chalked it up to my being disappointed as a proud member of the SS Shalladin, because that obviously didn't happen, and the general consensus over on tumblr, where I interact with the fandom the most, being just so happy that "the love triangle no one wanted was taken care of." But they're none too kind to Shalladin over there anyway (I actually saw a post circulating saying "the evil that is Shalladin has finally be cleansed from the fandom," and honestly, uncalled for) so I don't know what I was really expecting. Anyway, I'm so glad for this thread and I love the discussion that's been going on here.

Some thoughts, in no particular order (and sorry for rehashing anything, I just have to get some of this out there. Also, apologies for the impending wall of text, I have a lot of feelings on this matter.)

*I was fully prepared to have Shadolin be endgame, and as much as I love Shalladin, I could get behind the other side if I was given a reason to care about their relationship, but I kind of wasn't? I liked them well enough after WoR but by the end of OB I started actively disliking it. I guess I have two real problems with them, and it might be wholly personal, but 1. they're completely boring together. I love them both individually as characters but together there's just nothing there. This is especially weird because while a lot of people say that romance is one of BS's weaker writing points, and I can see where they're coming from, I have greatly liked and even loved almost every canon pairing he's thrown at us, except Shadolin. 2. I'm not seeing them offering each other the chance to grow and change. This is particularly important for Shallan right now because she has so much healing to do and Adolin is just not helping, and as it's been pointed out, he's actually hurting her by treating her different personas as different people, which they are not.

*That being said, I agree with the general sentiment here in that I didn't want Shallan choosing anyone in her current state. Homegirl is not in the right headspace to be committing herself to such a serious relationship and I feel like it's only going to make her worse.

*The Shallan and Wit scene is easily one of my favorites of the entire series, and really hit me hard. It also really draws the point of what Shallan needs to do in order to truly heal.

Quote

Wit grunted, then pointed to the second illusion, standing behind them. "And that one?"

"No different," Shallan said, tiring of this game. She gave the second illusion the same memories. Father. Helaran. Failing Jasnah. Everything.

"Yes, I see," Wit said, strolling up to her. "No different."

"What are you doing to my illusions?" Shallan snapped.

"Nothing. They're the same in every detail."

"Of course they're not," Shallan said, tapping the illusion, feeling it. A sense pulsed through her from it, memories and pain. And... and something smothering them...

Forgiveness. For herself.

...

"Your other minds take over," he whispered, "because they look so much more appealing. You'll never be able to control them until you're confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you."

"Then I'll never control it." She blinked tears.

"No," Wit said. He nodded towards the version of her still standing up. "You will Shallan. If you do not trust youself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting."

She nodded towards the illusion of herself still standing. "I can't be her. She's just another fabrication."

Both illusions vanished. "I see only one woman here," Wit said. "And it's the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it." He whispered to her. "It's all right to hurt."

...

"Wit?" she asked. "I... I can't do that."

He smiled. "There are certain things I know Shallan. This is one of them. You can. Find a balance. Accept the pain, but don't accept that you deserved it."

Pattern hummed in appreciation of that.

Forgive herself, accept that the pain exists, that it hurts, but she doesn't deserve it, accept that there is only one her, and that she doesn't have to try to be anyone else because the real her is worth so much. (Also, Wit seems so certain of this, so certain that she may be broken now, but eventually she can pull through. Also also, Pattern agrees.)

I really think this is right, because it's very close to what Dalinar does later on to heal. He takes his pain upon himself, claims it, and is able to forgive and be forgiven. "The pain he'd so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own." - Pg 1139. This is in direct contrast to what Shallan does, which is to repress everything and just pretend that there's nothing wrong. I also find it interesting how all three of our leads (Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar) talk about being different people throughout their lives, granted, Shallan does take this a step or two further than the others. They talk about becoming different men gradually through change an growth, and Dalinar in particular acknowledges that they weren't just a different part of him, he was those men, all of them, but because of them he has been able to change. Every step counts. There are actually a lot of interesting parallels you can draw between Shallan and Dalinar in this book. They both experienced incredible pain, Shallan brought this into herself, seeing herself as a "monster" because of it, while Dalinar refused to claim any responsibility, but still hated himself. They both repressed their pains and memories -Shallan, through her lies, and Dalinar, through his drinking. In the end of OB we were given one very clear and healthy way of eventually dealing with all of this (Dalinar), and one way that is decidedly less healthy (Shallan).

*I love the comparison of A/S/K with Dalinar, Evi, and Navani. That's actually what I was thinking for most of the second half of OB. Adolin is compared to his mother at least a half a dozen times, and there are some comparisons to be made with Shallan-young Dalinar (truly awful coping mechanisms for one, which actually makes me more hopeful that Shallan will be able to deal with her issues in time like Dalinar has). There really aren't any obvious Kaladin-Navani parallels, except Shallan/Dalinar still not being over Kaladin/Navani even when married to other people. In any case, even without Kaladin, this doesn't bode well for Shadolin. Dalinar and Evi's marriage wasn't really that happy, especially towards the end, not for lack of trying, but Dalinar at that time was not who he needed to be to make it work. Evi knew he could be so much more, so much better, and she was right, but she paid dearly for it.

*Pattern. I feel like you guys might be on to something with the bond breaking or being in jeopardy. Pattern definitely got less talkative as the book went on, and I may be wrong here but I cannot recall him saying anything in part 5 except for a line here or there and a bit of "Mmmmm"ing. Shallan is in deep denial about who she is, and that pretty directly contradicts the Lightweaver ideals. If she continues down this way and Adolin keeps enabling it, then it might be a choice between him and Pattern, and that's not going to turn out well.

Like I said though, I am so grateful for this thread. It's made me reevaluate everything, and honestly? I feel a lot better. I have read of lot of BS's books, and he has yet to disappoint. But letting all of this stand as it did at the end of OB? Feels wrong. I just hope it feels wrong because that's how it was intended.

Sorry if this got really ramble-ly.

[Prelude]

Love this thread!   Excuse me while I go make some coffee to sip whilst I catch up.