[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[AubreyWrites she/her]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I think it might come down to pragmatism. They know his story now, and they know what he's capable of. Practically speaking, if he's claiming to follow Dalinar's word as law, which doesn't seem like the kind of thing a Skybreaker could convincingly lie about, it's better to have him around, if only to keep an eye on him. Besides, Dalinar is a good judge of character.

Yeah but he just shows up in the middle of the battle and they aren't even like ....'dude, aren't you dead?' 

Instead it's all like 

"oh no! The assassin in white! The bane of Roshar for the last six and a half years! Wait- you are with us now! Ok that's cool man!" 

Say whhhat?

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Yeah but he just shows up in the middle of the battle and they aren't even like ....'dude, aren't you dead?' 

Instead it's all like 

"oh no! The assassin in white! The bane of Roshar for the last six and a half years! Wait- you are with us now! Ok that's cool man!" 

Say whhhat?

They were in a desperate enough situation that I doubt they would turn their nose up at help. Two other things. We know they had a discussion offscreen, because it's mentioned he told them about the Skybreakers switching sides. Second, Lift seems to like Szeth. That holds weight out of world, but based on their interactions, I feel like Lift's opinion holds weight with Dalinar as well. She vouched for him to Azir, she came back for them, and she followed him into Nergaoul. I feel like that has to mean something to Dalinar. And he is kinda the boss.

Edited November 23, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[Arch he/him]

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I guess I see that if you trust that Skybreakers are unfailingly loyal to who they choose to follow... I personally don’t and I have more information than our main characters on the order, so that doesn’t get me there. (Not saying that’s not Brandon’s reasoning though.) 

This probably isnt the right place, but it seems I've recently become the prime Nale/Szeth/Skybreaker attorney so i have to ask.. why? From what we've read so far skybreakers and highspren or probably the most obsessive about codes and oaths.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

@FuzzyWordsmith I know but it was rather jarring for that conversation to take place off screen. And yeah he told them the sky breakers changed sides....and he's a sky breaker..... After being burned a couple times by people he TRUSTED Dalinar is just going to take his word at face value? Who's to say that he's not a spy now.  He has spent the entire series at odds with these people and now because Lift likes him Dalinar & Co are ok too?

WE know he's not but we are also privy to his decision making process and character up till now. 

I get not turning away obvious help in the middle of battle but afterwards Szeth is basically acting bodyguard for Dalinar? 

Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics 

Edited November 23, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[Dreamstorm]

2 minutes ago, Arch said:

This probably isnt the right place, but it seems I've recently become the prime Nale/Szeth/Skybreaker attorney so i have to ask.. why? From what we've read so far skybreakers and highspren or probably the most obsessive about codes and oaths.

It’s more than I don’t trust anyone from any order as completely espousing an ideal. Take Windrunners... many of Bridge Four have already taken the second oath and yet they still abandon Theylan City. How does that align at all with protecting those who cannot protect themselves? Pulling back to (supposedly - they don’t know the oathgate will be breached) well-defended Urithiru and letting countless citizens of TC die all because eons ago humans invaded Roshar does not seem to embody that ideal in any way or shape. More specifically to Skybreakers, I think anyone who “strictly” follows any law can twist that law for their own good, i.e. Nale killing Radiants. He “justified” that by saying he was punishing them for past crimes, but he was actually guided solely by an ulterior motive. I can’t imagine there are not other ways to twist the Skybreaker principles. 

[Harbour he/him]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Had another thought.

Mindblown.

Quote

Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.”

Quote

 

Veil and Radiant faded. When Shallan looked back into the mirror, she didn't feel embarrassed by the attention any longer. It was all right.

It was all right to be happy.

 

She totally didnt listen to Wit.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Harbour

[Guest]

Holy rust. I love this thread.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

15 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

@FuzzyWordsmith I know but it was rather jarring for that conversation to take place off screen. And yeah he told them the sky breakers changed sides....and he's a sky breaker..... After being burned a couple times by people he TRUSTED Dalinar is just going to take his word at face value? Who's to say that he's not a spy now.  He has spent the entire series at odds with these people and now because Lift likes him Dalinar & Co are ok too?

WE know he's not but we are also privy to his decision making process and character up till now. 

I get not turning away obvious help in the middle of battle but afterwards Szeth is basically acting bodyguard for Dalinar? 

Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics 

I completely agree with you on the bolded part. I do believe that the ending of OB after the climactic battle was really rushed. A lot of stuff that should have happened on screen didn't. But I feel like it is not unreasonable to believe they would trust him. It takes some mental gymnastics, but I feel that's not the characters' fault, it's more an issue with how rushed the ending was. Also, I feel that you may be undervaluing how much weight Lift's word holds. Of all the Radiants, Lift was the one with Dalinar in some extremely important situations. She's the only one who managed to follow him into Nergaoul. She's the only one who was with him when he stepped out to meet Odium. In addition, she was there the first time he met Odium in the vision. Additionally, a lot of Dalinar's arc this book was learning to trust other people and their Judgement, like the essays for the Azish. It may just be my interpretation, but it makes perfect sense to me that Dalinar would trust Lift a lot more than most people.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

. Also, I feel that you may be undervaluing how much weight Lift's word holds.

It may just be my interpretation, but it makes perfect sense to me that Dalinar would trust Lift a lot more than most people.

I do think Lift's vote counts for a lot - as evidenced by everything you brought up and yes I can see it carrying weight with Dalinar. But just because Dalinar accepts it (by the way with not even a blip on the radar of 'this guy killed my brother and tried to kill me multiple times ' doesn't mean everyone across the board would. Dalinar may be in charge but everyone else aren't automatons. They are bound to have varying degrees of acceptance on this issue. 

I just have a vision of Dalinar embodying Jean luc Picard in a 'make it so' moment when ordering everyone to get in line with the idea of Szeth joining the team and Riker in the background ( embodying everyone on team Dalinar) waffling his eyebrows like 'seriously?' 

[Egomere]

This thread just get better and better. I'm just gonna let @SLNC @FuzzyWordsmith @Harbour and @PhineasGage carry on the good work.

And the thought that it was Odium in the Ashertham mindmeld is horrifying. Hadn't thought of it like that before... I'm not entirely sure I agree with it - I accept it could be a possibility but I feel it was more of a weird Memory conversation Shallan had with Wit rather than a genuine conversation happening at that time with telepathy. (has there been any evidence of telepathy like that before? If yes I really need to re-read the entire series rather than just OB again...

36 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics 

Yaep it was - unfortunately it felt like there was way to many things that happened off scene after the Thay. City battle. It's also one of reasons I dislike 'time-skips' with series - because it feels like too much would have happened in the missed time that we don't learn about (or alternatively in this case it could be static white noise where nothing interesting happens - so like whats the point of the skip in the first place?)

32 minutes ago, Harbour said:

She totally didnt listen to Wit.

And yet she seems to feel that she took his advice to heart at the time of their conversation in Khor. Only to turn around and throw it all away for a complete lack of personnal growth - which is ofc what everyone's upset about.

Kinda looking forward to the trainwreck I suspect she's going to become later on in a horribly perverse fashion.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Egomere said:

I feel it was more of a weird Memory conversation Shallan had with Wit rather than a genuine conversation happening at that time with telepathy.

But why then this focus on emotions and sensations... It just seems so Odium-y to me. I'll call Occam's razor on it.

[Farnsworth]

Yeah, I wasn’t a huge fan of the whole triangle thing. To clichèd. I’m pretty glad with how this all turned out in general, but mostly I was glad it didn’t turn into a whole huge thing.

[Egomere]

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But why then this focus on emotions and sensations... It just seems so Odium-y to me. I'll call Occam's razor on it.

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

edit : Although it could be due to the 'personalities' of each unmade. Like Neragoul and some of the other Unmade seem rather... simple / focussed and Sja-anat might have some more autonomy...

Hmmm will think some more.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Egomere

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Egomere said:

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

Maybe it is bound to the sentience of the Unmade in question. Ashertmarn is mindless. Sja-anat could probably resist a bit, if she wanted to.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, Egomere said:

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

You know, it's funny you say that. I immediately thought about Ruin. Ruin has pulled almost the exact same trick, with Vin, the mist spirit and Spook. Among others. The unmade are certainly reminiscent of Hemalurgic constructs. Some spiked people can resist better than others. It might be like that with the Unmade.

Edited November 23, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[AubreyWrites she/her]

5 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

You know, it's funny you say that. I immediately thought about Ruin. Ruin has pulled almost the exact same trick, with Vin, the mist spirit and Spook. Among others. The unmade are certainly reminiscent of Hemalurgic constructs. Some spiked people can resist better than others. It might be like that with the Unmade.

Maybe he has move direct control over the unmade that are considered mindless. He seems to have a pretty direct connection to and control over the Thrill  considering the depth of his knowledge of its control/effect over Dalinar

[mariapapadia she/her]

holy rust!  you guys are crazy ! I browse this thread every morning on my way to work and I read some posts and make a mental note what to reply, then when I get home there are 3 more pages! When do you guys have time for this ?  it's so funny because it reminds me of when we had to discuss a book or analyze a character in highschool for literature class and I was dreading those classes, when we were nit picking every little detail trying to understand what the author meant. Who knew I would grow to enjoy it ?  

I... will probably try to come with something more meaningful to say, but it's hard to keep up with you! 

[AubreyWrites she/her]

19 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

holy rust!  you guys are crazy ! I browse this thread every morning on my way to work and I read some posts and make a mental note what to reply, then when I get home there are 3 more pages! When do you guys have time for this ?  it's so funny because it reminds me of when we had to discuss a book or analyze a character in highschool for literature class and I was dreading those classes, when we were nit picking every little detail trying to understand what the author meant. Who knew I would grow to enjoy it ?  

I... will probably try to come with something more meaningful to say, but it's hard to keep up with you! 

As much as I read I always hated those classes too both in highschool and college. I think it was both because I dislike being told what to read. They always wanted us to read literature - as if those were the only works that hold any truth or meaning. Nothing  against classics, I read and enjoy those too and often had already read the ones we were studying but they aren't a pedestal to be idolized and I have found just as much  truth and meaning in works that were far more fun to read. and my teachers were always trying to direct the discussion around to their interpretation instead of allowing free flow and assigning material we had to LOOK for meaning in istead of letting the debate arise organically. Bleugh. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[analyticaposteriori]

The biggest question mark here really is Brandon's intent.

On one hand the developments and things related in OB to this triangle thingy are so obviously hinting at more - foreshadowings, endless implications, poorly constructed and thus brittle justifications made by Shallan at the end together with her mental problems... it feels like a clear setup for this thing to continue (in possibly very interesting ways).

On the other hand there are BS' past writings and the weird finality that some of the resolutions in OB have - namely the wedding and the ending of the conversation between Shallan and Kaladin. I mean this is just brutal:

Quote

“Well, whatever you’re doing, it’s obviously working. If I could smother these emotions, I’d do so eagerly.”
She nodded, but fell silent, then resisted all further attempts to draw her into conversation.

Kal says the worst thing he can say in that moment and then it feels like the relationship just comes to a screeching halt and takes a suicide dive off a cliff. It's even worse when you consider it's pretty much the only personal conversation these two have in 1300 pages. Two main characters who spend 4/5 of a doorstopping book pretty much together have a single meaningful conversation? Just compare it to the chasm sequence... If BS wrote in big black letters on the back cover that this is the end of this arc it would probably be less obvious than what he actually did.

Edited November 23, 2017 by analyticaposteriori

[Mondaysjelly]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Holy rust. I love this thread.

Praise Domi!

[GoddessIMHO]

Looking back I think it wasn't so much that Adolin and Shallan were rushing to be married.  It was Navani pushing them.  Right before Jasnah has the confrontation with Amaram in the library Navani is trying to get Shallan to go ahead with the marriage to find stability in these troubled times.

I keep forgetting the timeline we are in puts all of the actions over days and not months.

[Harbour he/him]

47 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

On the other hand there are BS' past writings and the weird finality that some of the resolutions in OB have - namely the wedding and the ending of the conversation between Shallan and Kaladin. I mean this is just brutal:

That thing is the one that looks like an amateur attempt to sink the ship. I feel BS failed to show that Kaladin need to work on his social skills before dropping this scene. He is pretty good in them. The one scene with Lyn wasn't enough.

And that Kaladin's line would bother me at least until the next book. It felt so unnaturally awful. I mean, its like an opposite of the chasms scene. Was that the attempt to sink the ship? I doubt it. Was it a lame writing? Id say yes. BS could use the different form of line to create the rift between Shallan and Kaladin, not to make Kaladin sound like an insensible dummy he never was. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Harbour

[Egomere]

1 hour ago, AubreyWrites said:

As much as I read I always hated those classes too both in highschool and college. I think it was both because I dislike being told what to read. They always wanted us to read literature - as if those were the only works that hold any truth or meaning. Nothing  against classics, I read and enjoy those too and often had already read the ones we were studying but they aren't a pedestal to be idolized and I have found just as much  truth and meaning in works that were far more fun to read. and my teachers were always trying to direct the discussion around to their interpretation instead of allowing free flow and assigning material we had to LOOK for meaning in istead of letting the debate arise organically. Bleugh. 

Yaep. And How we were forced to pick them apart and anaylse them - I always felt at that age that too much indepth analyse of either prose or poetry ended up taking away from the intrinsic value of reading something that you interpreted and related to in some personnal manner as well... not disrepectful but taking away the beauty and emotional feels of the work. - I mean too much analyse about what x meant exactly by y relating to political pressure in the 1800's or whatever just felt like why the hell can;t someone read it and just enjoy it...

and now look at me...

[AubreyWrites she/her]

16 minutes ago, Egomere said:

Yaep. And How we were forced to pick them apart and anaylse them - I always felt at that age that too much indepth analyse of either prose or poetry ended up taking away from the intrinsic value of reading something that you interpreted and related to in some personnal manner as well... not disrepectful but taking away the beauty and emotional feels of the work. - I mean too much analyse about what x meant exactly by y relating to political pressure in the 1800's or whatever just felt like why the hell can;t someone read it and just enjoy it...

and now look at me...

It's like you read my mind 

[Greywatch she/her]

Quote

I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it.

I can recognize that she was under stress at the time, but she still 100% should not have done it, and it was still cruel. She's old enough to know better. That said, I agree it was a relief to see that Kaladin can laugh about it now, a book and a half later. The only reason I was happy to see it is because I do think by the end of OB, that Shallan wouldn't have done it again.

Quote

 

Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. 

Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here.

I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing.

 

I don't think we're disagreeing about what's going on with her personas or what will fix it; but I do think it's jumping the gun to say that Adolin is doing it wrong based on the fact that when OB ends he's only known about them for about a hot minute. In this, I want to wait and see SA4 to see how he really interacts with them after being introduced to the idea that they exist. I also dislike the idea of holding someone responsible for something they have no way of knowing, ie. the best way to treat multiple personality, which isn't exactly a well known process even to us.

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Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. 

I... love this! Absolutely agree. Upvote!

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Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. 

I am going to resist the idea that Kaladin is inherently a better choice, mainly because of your first couple sentences. (It's exactly what Navani said about Evi, and after the OB flashbacks, I admit I've lost respect for Navani because of this line.) Adolin is extremely intelligent and tactically minded. I'm always extremely impressed with him when reading his pov and seeing him deeply understand and support Dalinar's strategies. His mind is often turning and finding angles and coming up with new ideas - just about politics and nations. I really see him as being a lot like his father, in that he has a very keen mind for strategy and tactics, but simply doesn't have an interest in, say, science, in which case, I'd phrase it as he's happy to let the experts take the spotlight and jump in when it's his strong point.

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I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one.

I have to resist this again, as Kaladin is not cleverer than Adolin, but more apt to banter. I truly don't think the banter Shallan engages in is actually clever - it's just being obtuse and insulting, then feeling superior when they invariably "don't get it". Kaladin, only engaging in this insulting behaviour when Shallan banters with insults him first, at least only directs it at Shallan, and doesn't initiate it.

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

You don't have to answer me, but I invite you to. Don't think, that I don't respect your opinion. I just want to give another perspective.

Quote

*shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind  

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I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. 

 Ahhh... This is point where I think I should clarify my real feelings. (@SLNC, I did read it over, and I think I actually do agree with... most of it, but more below.) 

A lot of times throughout the thread there was talk about how Brandon dropped the ball, and if Shallan and Kaladin don't end up together, that Brandon is at fault and he did something wrong or unskillfully. It really bothered me, and it's not an objective truth.  It might feel that Brandon did something wrong because you really, really like the pairing, but as I've said before, it's just the way you read it. Just because Brandon does something we don't like doesn't mean that it's bad. It's possible the hints he was dropping were setting up a different kind of plot entirely. We just don't know. My favourite reading credo is "the real story is viewed in light of the ending." SA hasn't ended yet, so maybe he really is setting up Shalladin. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he's setting up something else and it won't be obvious until all the pieces are together. But Oathbringer is also a single story, and this single story had an ending, and we can view all of the interactions between the three in light of the fact that Adolin and Shallan ended up choosing each other and Kaladin and Shallan deciding not to act on anything.

I have a viscerally bad reaction when Shalladin because I have a major problem with Shallan. You may have noticed that the majority of my arguments against Shalladin were related to Shallan's behaviour; I've hesitated to say anything because a lot of people do like and identify with Shallan, but I just find her so mean. It's visible in all three books so far that she often mocks and belittles other people, sometimes just to feel clever, sometimes just to make herself feel better. I don't find her funny or clever. She deeply bothers me. OB also brought me a lot of sympathy for her and how seriously her trauma is affecting her; I think at her core she's a really compassionate person who wants to help people. Her ability to see the absolute best in people is her most amazing trait, in my opinion. She's going through a lot of terrible stuff right now, and she's still responsible for her behaviour, and I don't have to like her even though she might have reasons. I think she's worse than usual to Kaladin, and I think no matter how condescending she might be to Adolin (we can disagree about it), I'd still take the open affection she expresses to Adolin over the openly "funny" insults she gives to Kaladin basically every time they interact. That's my preference, and I am never going to find it cute when Shallan does it. I think both Adolin and Kaladin could do better. 

I've said it a couple times throughout this thread that Adolin/Shallan is not my favourite ship - maybe I should be more candid. They're cute and all, but I don't actually really ship it myself. (After defending it for a couple days here, though, my feelings went from grumpy "did they have to end up together" to "THE TEXTUAL EVIDENCE" - crazy what defending something will do for your feelings about it.) But OB clearly made the case for them, viewed in light of how it ended. It might be undone in SA4, but that's the next part of the story, that will have its own ending.

Shipping doesn't have to be about canon, though, and there's been a lot of speculation and ideas and just fun things for Shalladin. Which is great! My point is that it doesn't have to be supported by canon to be a good ship. Related to why I really wanted to respond, it also really bothered me that folks were throwing Adolin under the bus for reasons that were not supported by the SA books at all, but just kind of thrown in there to justify the idea that Kaladin was clearly the better choice. Adolin can be the canon pick and it's fine to just say "I prefer Kaladin with her" instead of picking through the text to invent reasons that Adolin is bad for Shallan to prop up Kaladin by comparison. We don't have to do that. We can just say what we prefer without that. (My main ship is Kaladin/Adolin - there's a lot of fun to be had when one needn't justify the canon-ness of it to anyone else!)

We decide what we like and dislike and read things into that. Adolin and Shallan had a lot to stand behind, but if you don't like the pairing, you just can't see it. It's the same with me and Shalladin. All the interesting connections, textual evidence, hints in the narrative, doesn't make a difference. I don't like the pairing, and I don't find the in-text relationship compelling or interesting or good. Neither of us is going to be logic'ed into liking something else... We just like what we like. In the same way I have a strongly negative reaction to Shallan's bantering, for one example, you clearly have good associations with it. I would never want you to stop having that. But it's not going to be there for everyone reading SA. It doesn't count as textual evidence in support of a ship if person A says 'look at this it's amazing' and person B says 'this is terrible'. It's just our opinions.