[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

28 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

I love your theory, DimChatz.  This exactly satisfies what I've been looking for - something that mirrors history rather than exactly repeating it.  So many things fit.

So in these mirrored relationships, who is the present day equivalent of Gavilar?  His key ties were:

• Dalinar: brother and commanding officer. They have similar although not identical abilities, and Gavilar was Dalinar's role model.
• Evi: introduced her to Dalinar and arranged their marriage, mostly for strategic gain (to get access to her brother's Shards) but also because he thought this would be good for Dalinar.
• Navani: spouse.

I've never bought this as a possible relationship before, but dang if Jasnah isn't a match:

• Shallan's mentor - they have similar although not identical abilities, and Jasnah is Shallan's role model.
• Adolin: introduced him to Shallan and arranged their marriage, mostly for strategic gain (to get access to Shallan's Radiant powers) but also because she thought this would be good for both Adolin and Shallan.
• Kaladin: spouse?

Good points all, fitting and well made, and a great expansion on the original post. Maybe Jasnah, though I personally I don't see as a possibility at this stage it but I wouldn't be opposed to it at all, is present day Gavilar, or maybe we haven't met the person yet or maybe there won't be such person. It all depends on Kaladin and what he chooses. If I were to pick a possibility, I'd go with not having yet met the person, just out of personal preference, but anything can happen (not the least of which being that I'm completely off with the theory no matter how much it fits), even Tarah might resurface and be single (really longshot). Who knows? (I wish I did.)

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[Egomere]

4 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

Laughed ....a lot ...

glad someone else liked it

[Greywatch she/her]

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Do you not think? Just my interpretation then. I hate being called "dear" - it always sounds condescending. I also think she goes for Kaladin unneccessarily in this scene. Adolin doesn't need protecting from Kaladin - indeed it brushes right off him because he's confident enough in himself not to care. Not that it is ok to condone Kaladin being mean here - but she could have been more effective simply by saying it isnt necessary to tease Adolin then walking away - even joining Adolin. But she doesn't. On top of that she admits in WoR that she can't see the point in teasing Adolin because he doesn't really react. She likes getting a rise out of Kaladin. Also, it gives them an in-joke. One that has lasted 2 books now. I do not remember a similar in-joke between Adolin and Shallan.

No, not at all. Where I come from, "dear" is the most commonly used pet name for people in a romantic relationship. I'm sorry that it's been ruined for you.

I do not like any said "in-joke" between Kaladin and Shallan, as the origin of it was... not great. Shallan enjoying getting a rise out of Kaladin, and actively consciously trying to do it is juvenile, especially if it's an actual attempt to flirt. I think it's obnoxious and upsetting in real life, and Shallan doing it did not make me like her any better. But she often uses juvenile behaviour to cope, so at least it's in line with her characterization. I cannot see these "jokes" as a genuine attempt to connect. If you like that sort of thing, more power to you, but it wasn't cute or charming for everyone. Those same things that made you like the ship turned me off of it completely. I mentally begged Brandon not to have them be romantically together for the same reasons you want it to happen.

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She felt a bit bad about the boots but I agree she forgot about it too quickly. The thing is we need to ask why put this in? Why set up the conflict and why do it in this manner? BS could easily have done the scene without the boots to make sure there was a little bit of concern on Kaladin's side regarding whether Shallan is an imposter or not for the rest of WoR. But he didn't, he wanted there to be a direct conflict so that both Kaladin and Shallan would be forced to confront their prejudices regarding class. Remember, Kaladin is just as classist as Shallan - even in OB he struggles to cope with the idea that tenners are just ordinary people. Though I think he is basically passed that now, he has gone a long way in this setting since the en of tWoK.

They have conflict because they have conflict. Conflict between a male and female character does not equal true romantic destiny. It's a trope I find very difficult to pull off in fiction, most of the time it falls flat for me. In this case, Shallan's behaviour towards Kaladin in the boots scene went beyond "falling flat" straight into "despicable". Kaladin's anger at lighteyes for harming/stepping on/killing him and his family and his friends is not the same as Shallan's casual dismissal of darkeyes as lesser. Shallan as a lighteyes is in a position of power; Kaladin is not. Their perceptions of the other caste should not be treated as equal. Kaladin's anger and bitterness of lighteyes is based on frequent real life events he can point to in his life and the lives of his loved ones. Shallan's treatment of darkeyes is... the way she was raised to think. More on this is a totally different topic of discussion, but they are not the same, nor should Kaladin's "prejudice" towards lighteyes be made light of - if I can make a pun.

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Oh I agree, and compassion for her is important, but compassion on its own won't help, and poorly applied compassio can be harmful. For example, someone with a major depressive disorder may have someone come in and do everything for them. This is sometimes necessary during a major episode, especially if the person with the depression is almost catatonic, but eventually they have to be made to do some things for themselves. Healing comes from within. If they keep having everything done for them, they won't ever become independent again. In Shallan's case, it is good to accept that she has fractured her personality - this is helpful for her. It is not helpful to treat those identities differently from each other however because that reinforces the boundaries.

Shallan's fractures are also fairly recent. I think you and I just have different takes on what Shallan's different personas mean. I'm of the opinion that they are a coping behaviour and Shallan isn't ready to let go of them yet. Adolin is not the reason they exist.

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I agree you can't force it, but that doesn't mean you have to go along with it either - the one thing a therapist for DID is told to always remember is that their client is one person with multiple problems, not multiple people. Your behaviour towards them should be consistent regardless of which alter they wear during a session. This doesn't force the client to behave a ceryain way, but it does give them an expectation of how things are going to proceed.

Adolin is also not her therapist, and it's not his job to tell Shallan how to be healthy. His job is to support her, and it's my strong opinion that accepting all of Shallan right now and not avoiding/dismissing/denying the reality of Shallan's personas is more helpful than the other way around. All that would do is just have Shallan continue having them, but in secret. Adolin was not the cause of her fractures, and he is not the reason she's continuing to have them. Her personas are part of HER issues, they are part of her process, and she will continue to work on bringing her personas back into herself (or not! we'll find out in SA4!) and you are putting way more fault on Adolin than exists in the text. 

It is only an interpretation to say that it's Adolin's fault she's stagnating.

My interpretations from the beginning is that:

(1) Shallan is not stagnating. She's in a process and we don't know where it will end up with her, and the book ends while she's still in progress. We actually don't know where this will end up, and her mental health journey has been radically fast when you consider how short a span the books have actually covered so far. This might be a short stop of a few months along her journey. We don't know! OB had to end at some point, and it happened that OB ended while Shallan was still working on things. We're going to have to wait a few more years for the next SA book before we can comfortably say what impact Adolin is having. It's understandable to be worried that she's being enabled, but there's not enough evidence in the text to support that.

(2) Shallan's reaction about stressing over what Adolin thinks of her, worrying about what he thinks, becoming occupied with presenting her good side to him is (a) something that normal people experience when dating someone, taken to an unhealthy extreme because of Shallan's specific issues, and (b) something that she would be experiencing with any romantic partner at this time.Where you see this as a specific reaction to Adolin, I have always seen as her reaction to a romantic partner. A lot of these feelings of "will they still like me if they really know who I am?" are perfectly normal, and something I always took as a given that she would experience with Kaladin as well had she chosen to pursue a relationship with him instead. (One conversation in the chasm is not enough to know a person, no matter what they shared, and the chasm scene was nice, but not the basis of a relationship.)

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Not sure if you read the link I sent regarding attachment? The thing is such feelings don't indicate attachment (although they don't negate it). Also, when you are attached you can be silly with your SO but not "feel" silly doing it - I suppose it is difficult to describe, and my own are feelings are my own (although my SO and I have discussed that we both feel this way, it is still anecdotal) but I don't feel any differently about my SO when we are discussing politics as to when we make in-jokes with each other. The jokes are silly - we are frequently silly in each others company but it doesn't "feel" silly, it just feels fun and warm and right. On the other hand, I am in a very different place to Shallan as my SO and I have known each other nearly 7 years. She has barely known Adolin 7 months.

 

 

 

I didn't! Must have missed it. I'm away to make supper right after this, but I'll check it out when I'm sitting down again tonight.

That said, I think this definition of "silly" is really personal and relative, which means I don't think we'll agree. I think silliness is a great and normal trait that you can have with a very committed romantic partner, and I just didn't take it the way you did.

Lastly on this, if you're trying to make an argument against Adolin in favour of Kaladin, the seven months argument is negated by the fact that she's known Adolin and Kaladin for the same amount of time. All we can do is argue what they have chosen to do with that seven months of knowing each other. Factually, Adolin and Shallan have expressed interest and attraction towards each other frequently, intentionally chosen to spend a lot time together to have fun and get to know each other better, think about each other a lot, express how much they care about the future of the relationship, and try their best to support the other person's feelings and goals. Kaladin and Shallan got lost in a chasm once, had a conversation with a kindred spirit which was nice, only spent time in the other's presence when Adolin was around, spent some time thinking about the other but ultimately chose not spend time together or use whatever time they had together getting to know each other, instead exchanging barbs and being kind of mean to each other. Even when Shallan was thinking about Kaladin, it was drawing his face or thinking "I should go flirt with him" and not even ... about him? I just haven't seen Shallan and Kaladin caring about each other's wants and needs.  They both care about their shared mission, of course! But their specific individual struggles? We haven't seen a lot of that with Kaladin and Shallan, just surface attraction and "hmm do I really like them?" 

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So I agree with you that Adolin is hopeless with women, but I honestly don't blame him for going along with Shallan.  I think he has been ensnared by the idea of marriage and love and all that malarky, and he found a woman that seemed to really fit. Now regardless of how people feel about Shallan's choice, she has spent a great deal of time around Adolin trying to be the perfect woman for him. It is one of the reasons she wants to hide Veil from him - she wants to keep up the illusion that she is only the "perfect Shallan". 

Adolin is essentially in love with the idea of being in love - he may also love Shallan, but he has been looking to get a stable relationship for a while - it was why he agreed to the causal in the first place - he admits as much to Kaladin. I think he likes the idea of settling down. Being married will allow him to continue doing the things he likes - duelling, wine, fashion, without the requirement to find a woman to marry.

It is hardly surprising he gets caught up in the moment because he genuinely likes (I am unclear that it is definitely love - I personally thinks it is too soon) Shallan - and she is being particularly pushy at that moment. He hears what he wants to hear - ie the praise for Adolin and misses the implication that there was no denunciation of Kaladin. She has the momentum and he is happy to be pushed along with it - he is used to having someone else being the driving force in his life - previously it was Dalinar, now it is Shallan.

 

My perception has never been that Adolin had an idealized version of Shallan in his head. Shallan thinks that he does, but his pov never supports that. He takes her at face value and readily accepts whatever Shallan says and does as really cool and a new part of the woman he's starting to love. The other relationships, yeah, there's lots of idealization going on, which happens with young folks who like each other: Kaladin to Shallan, Shallan to Kaladin, Shallan to Adolin. 

[Fallen_Ash]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:37 PM, Lady Stormlight said:

He really is, isn't he?  He's a nice guy, good brother and son but that's basically it.  He's had zero character development after over 3,000 pages; he basically the same character he was at the start.  That's not a bad thing but it doesn't make for a very interesting character to me. 

I feel a little guilty about putting Adolin down, because in real life kind, considerate, friendly, supportive guys are the best. They just don't make the best protagonists. I mean, there's a reason Cedric Diggory wasn't the main character. And I don't WANT him to get more interesting by having some horrific thing happen to him. I'd rather him stay nice and good. However, that means getting Shallan away from him and giving Kaladin more screen time. 

Frankly, I don't want Shallan anywhere near either Adolin or Kaladin right now. She needs to deal with her own stuff and stop expecting things to magically get better. The more I think about this, the more angry I get at Shallan. Especially for thinking that getting married is the solution. Her fractured state is going to be even more of an issue as she tries to build a long-term, committed relationship. 

[Guest]

On 11/21/2017 at 1:37 AM, Lady Stormlight said:

He really is, isn't he?  He's a nice guy, good brother and son but that's basically it.  He's had zero character development after over 3,000 pages; he basically the same character he was at the start.  That's not a bad thing but it doesn't make for a very interesting character to me. 

And there's going to be a Szeth POV book?  Ugh.  I'm so not interested in that. 

Adolin having zero character development is not because his character is unable to grow or because there he is nothing more than a blank state, it merely is a by-product of the author's narrative choices. Brandon does not want to put the focus on Adolin and, as such, he reads as bland, one dimensional and a tad superficial. However if we take the various elements within his character, things such as parental pressure, perfectionism, dysfunctional family, murdered mother, inability to form meaningful relationship with his peers and lack of magical abilities in a world where everyone he knows is getting them, then we have the making of a very interesting character. The problem is Adolin never gets enough page time nor viewpoints nor insights to read as the really interesting character he could be. Instead, he is just kind of there and when he does get viewpoints, they are wasted having him do things or take action for the other characters.

So all in all, Adolin could have been very interesting in OB, but Brandon didn't want to write him this way.

20 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I feel a little guilty about putting Adolin down, because in real life kind, considerate, friendly, supportive guys are the best. They just don't make the best protagonists. I mean, there's a reason Cedric Diggory wasn't the main character. And I don't WANT him to get more interesting by having some horrific thing happen to him. I'd rather him stay nice and good. However, that means getting Shallan away from him and giving Kaladin more screen time. 

The difference in between Cedric Digory and Adolin is we have absolutely no backstory for Cedric and there is absolutely no indications he is anything more than a very successful young man with a pleasant personality. Adolin is a different matter because he is Born Unto Light for his father, he has huge expectations placed on him since birth, his family is highly dysfunctional and when his father pushes him away for resembling too much his mother, he just tries harder.

There are a lot of good elements into Adolin's character which would make a very interesting to read protagonist, but the author just doesn't want it to happen. The Maya story arc would have been so much more powerful had it come at the end of a real story arc as opposed to bits of Adolin being diluted here and there in the middle of Shallan's endless personality shifts and Kaladin talking to guards men.

Edited November 23, 2017 by maxal

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

19 minutes ago, maxal said:

The Maya story arc

This was a huge anti-climax. I actually have problems seeing how Brandon thought in regards to this. Having Adolin revive Maya would have given the book a more powerful ending, and given him a complete arc. I guess Brandon wants to have Adolin around as the Average Joe, but still... it was wierd.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

13 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This was a huge anti-climax. I actually have problems seeing how Brandon thought in regards to this. Having Adolin revive Maya would have given the book a more powerful ending, and given him a complete arc. I guess Brandon wants to have Adolin around as the Average Joe, but still... it was wierd.

I think with OB being as stuffed full as it was it would have been difficult to give Adolin a completely fleshed out arc. Personally I don't think he will remain so going into S4. There's just too much that is being set up for his story line for him to remain stationary as a character. We have the possible revival of Maya, his sure to be massively conflicted marriage to Shallan, ( irregardless of Kaladin's presence or non presence) the effect of finding out his mother's death was actually his dad's fault - a man he has idolized and emulated his entire life( if he turns Radient I really think this is going to be part of what breaks him)  his shifting responsibilities as High Prince and his adjustment to being a small fish in a very big pond of alligators...etc 

he has room to grow and the space to do it over the next several books. I DO wish his scenes had less of an emphasis on superficial qualities - even in the small doses we got and more on his reactions to changing dynamics but I still feel we got some growth from him. 

His growing friendship with Kaladin was really awesome to see. Especially in shadesmar when Kaladin was losing it. It demonstrated all the good thing s we love about Adolin. 

Im excited about his continuing arc.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Do you not think? Just my interpretation then. I hate being called "dear" - it always sounds condescending.

 

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

No, not at all. Where I come from, "dear" is the most commonly used pet name for people in a romantic relationship. I'm sorry that it's been ruined for you.

I'm gonna have come down on the middle of this one. Where I am from the term 'dear is both pet name and term of condescension. It's all about tone and subtext. And the time/subtext I got from this statement in WoR in context in the conversation was definitely layered in condescension. That's why I'm falling more in @PhineasGage camp when Interperating interactions between these three.  

Most of their interactions if taken straight at face value would validate your stance on this imo. HOWEVER, I believe subtext is crucial- especially when reading BS. When taken in context and applying tone and reading the subtext the whole flavor of every interaction radically changes for me - landing me squarely on the other side of this discussion and pretty much in line with @PhineasGage thought. 

* I don't think the quotes copied right- the top quote isn't from greywatch it's from phineasgage 

[Greywatch she/her]

1 minute ago, AubreyWrites said:

I'm gonna have come down on the middle of this one. Where I am from the term 'dear is both pet name and term of condescension. It's all about tone and subtext. And the time/subtext I got from this statement in WoR in context in the conversation was definitely layered in condescension. That's why I'm falling more in @PhineasGage camp when Interperating interactions between these three.  

Most of their interactions if taken straight at face value would validate your stance on this imo. HOWEVER, I believe subtext is crucial- especially when reading BS. When taken in context and applying tone and reading the subtext the whole flavor of every interaction radically changes for me - landing me squarely on the other side of this discussion and pretty much in line with @PhineasGage thought. 

Then I think this is much more a matter of interpretation, since I got the feeling Shallan in WoR was being genuine and straightforward with Adolin, since her position in the warcamps depended a lot on the Kholins' opinion of her; whereas I found her unbearably mean and condescending whenever she spoke to Kaladin. Seems to be a matter of perception.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

Then I think this is much more a matter of interpretation, since I got the feeling Shallan in WoR was being genuine and straightforward with Adolin, since her position in the warcamps depended a lot on the Kholins' opinion of her; whereas I found her unbearably mean and condescending whenever she spoke to Kaladin. Seems to be a matter of perception.

Don't get me wrong - I do feel like she was being straightforward for the most part with Adolin in WoR- nor do I think she seriously considered Kaladin as a potential choice in WoR since he is darkehed and she is definitely rockin' some classicism from her upbringing. That doesn't mean they didn't have a spark- chemistry all over the place. And most of her banter is just that- banter. She tends to fall back on banter when she's uncomfortable ( jasnah calls her out on it several times) 

but the time she spends with Adolin is always light and frothy feeling. Surface feels and thoughts. She shows him what he expects to see because she DOES want to keep him. He is safe and fun and she genuinely likes him. But the fact that she doesn't have any inclination to show him anything deeper about herself even before she fragments and doesn't make any effort to know HIM on a deeper level doesn't fill me with hope for their future. 

and yes the chasms were a bonding moment for Shallan/Kaladin. One moment. But it was a huge moment. Kaladin found out more about her in those hours down there then all the months before and after that she spent with Adolin. And yeah in OB she does treat him like crap and then moons over him seconds later. If this is immature then yeah - she's barely 18 and dealing with Long past trauma and the end of the world and I  still think resentment over Heleran's death is now stuffed up there in that mess if a brain of hers.?

but it also brings to mind this quote from The Village - referencing M. Night Shamylan 

"Sometimes we don't do things so others won't know we want to do them." 

Especially after jasnah calls her out over her wandering eyes the "Shallan" persona gets even meaner to Kaladin while pushing all attraction into the Veil persona. Attempts to assuage feelings she doesn't want to have despite having them much? 

After crystallizing my feelings from this thread - I'm glad she didn't choose Kaladin right now - not particularly happy about Adolin choice either but that's just because I see lots more pain in that future.  But hey- it will make for interesting reading on their journey! 

[Greywatch she/her]

Then this really is an impasse, because I can decide here that's enough for me to not like it; just as you can decide you still like the ship in spite of all that.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This was a huge anti-climax. I actually have problems seeing how Brandon thought in regards to this. Having Adolin revive Maya would have given the book a more powerful ending, and given him a complete arc. I guess Brandon wants to have Adolin around as the Average Joe, but still... it was wierd.

Actually, I very much like the Maya arc. I have just re-read it all and it flows really nicely. The fight with the Fused, Maya saving Adolin, thunderclast fight, Maya saving Adolin again, those scenes are pure moments of awesome and made me feel a lot better. I just feel Adolin's character could have been better used early in Part 3: he felt like a comical relied and I felt it clashed with how he must be feeling considering all which is happening.

I personally find myself really liking those fights where poor Adoln gets stabs, crushed, toss around, but still tries to stand with his glowing Maya held into bloody hands. It wouldn't have been the same if he had the ability to heal himself after each blow. I loved those scenes. Wait to see my review of Part 5. I still have to write Part 4 but I want to re-read some parts before I do this.

2 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I think with OB being as stuffed full as it was it would have been difficult to give Adolin a completely fleshed out arc. Personally I don't think he will remain so going into S4. There's just too much that is being set up for his story line for him to remain stationary as a character. We have the possible revival of Maya, his sure to be massively conflicted marriage to Shallan, ( irregardless of Kaladin's presence or non presence) the effect of finding out his mother's death was actually his dad's fault - a man he has idolized and emulated his entire life( if he turns Radient I really think this is going to be part of what breaks him)  his shifting responsibilities as High Prince and his adjustment to being a small fish in a very big pond of alligators...etc 

he has room to grow and the space to do it over the next several books. I DO wish his scenes had less of an emphasis on superficial qualities - even in the small doses we got and more on his reactions to changing dynamics but I still feel we got some growth from him. 

His growing friendship with Kaladin was really awesome to see. Especially in shadesmar when Kaladin was losing it. It demonstrated all the good thing s we love about Adolin. 

Im excited about his continuing arc.

I absolutely agree with this post, but boiled cat is afraid of hot water. There is nothing I wish more than Adolin getting a less superficial arc, one which deals with the real hardcore stuff such as: "The father I always looked up and consider the most magnificent man in the world has burned my mother alive.". I however loss confidence in Brandon writing it after the crushing disappointment of the Sadeas murder arc not really panning into much.

On the romance side, I just want Adolin and Shallan to be happy together, to adopt Gavinor and to raise him as their son  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Then I think this is much more a matter of interpretation, since I got the feeling Shallan in WoR was being genuine and straightforward with Adolin, since her position in the warcamps depended a lot on the Kholins' opinion of her; whereas I found her unbearably mean and condescending whenever she spoke to Kaladin. Seems to be a matter of perception.

She wasn't she says that herself. That she painted a face for him. I think it was quoted here... somewhere. I'll find it later.

And yes, Shallan was condescending, until she learned, that Kaladin might have had some reason to be like that, which makes all of this even more meaningful.

[Greywatch she/her]

Just now, SLNC said:

She wasn't she says that herself. That she painted a face for him. I think it was quoted here... somewhere. I'll find it later.

And yes, Shallan was condescending, until she learned, that Kaladin might have had some reason to be like that, which makes all of this even more meaningful.

Then that's a matter of opinion, as I found her condescending through all of WoR.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan's fractures are also fairly recent. I think you and I just have different takes on what Shallan's different personas mean. I'm of the opinion that they are a coping behaviour and Shallan isn't ready to let go of them yet. Adolin is not the reason they exist.

Obviously not, but he is giving her reasons to keep relying on them.

[Greywatch she/her]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Obviously not, but he is giving her reasons to keep relying on them.

And that's just, like, your opinion, man. /Jeff Bridges

Are we at the point now where we can say we read really different things into both relationships and it's a matter of different interpretation?

[Guest]

Sure. If that is what you want, then lets stop arguing.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites she/her]

28 minutes ago, maxal said:

but boiled cat is afraid of hot water.

I admit reading this I have never come across this particular localism. Had to go back and reread it- pretty sure I get the gist but was so interesting to note

[Hiadin Haloun he/him]

On 11/16/2017 at 1:28 AM, PhineasGage said:

Ok some final thoughts. Shallan is a level 4 Lightweaver. She still has one more truth to reveal to become a full Radiant. This is likely to happen either towards the end of book 4, or (more likely imo) in book 5. Now this could be regarding how she became a surgebinder (presumably her family was pretty nasty even before she killed her mother) but that seems to have been implicitly understood at this point. My feeling is that she needs to accept that she is all of these women and stop hiding parts of herself away - she needs to accept her flaws etc and that she is not infallible. Interestingly, accepting the truth of situations seems to be part of all of the orders. Kaladin struggles to accept the truth that he cannot save everyone - indeed he can't progress because of it. Truth, or at least the subjective aspect of it, is important in the cognitive realm, although the Cryptics seem to take this to an extreme. Granted, we only have evidence for the WR and LW but accepting the truth of your own flaws and accepting that failure is a part of your journey is incredibly important for all people, not just Radiants. Shallan has not accepted this - so she created personas to overcome the inherent weaknesses of her personality. It seems like a strength but overall true strength comes from accepting that you cannot be perfect. 

 

The thing is i dont think she is a lvl 4 lightweaver.  She has obviously sworn the first three ideals.  1 is static...  Always the same...  2 and 3 are more questionable though.  I don't think "I am terrified" counts.  It is obvious she is terrified, and it doesn't reveal much about herself.  "I am a murderer" however... A very powerful truth.  Additionally, while she admitted to killing her mother, the ideal  has been "sworn, but not yet accepted."  (I probably misquoted that).  She just isn't there yet.  We don't have any lvl 4 Radiants yet.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

The thing is i dont think she is a lvl 4 lightweaver.  She has obviously sworn the first three ideals.  1 is static...  Always the same...  2 and 3 are more questionable though.  I don't think "I am terrified" counts.  It is obvious she is terrified, and it doesn't reveal much about herself.  "I am a murderer" however... A very powerful truth.  Additionally, while she admitted to killing her mother, the ideal  has been "sworn, but not yet accepted."  (I probably misquoted that).  She just isn't there yet.  We don't have any lvl 4 Radiants yet.

We have a WoB on that.

[Hiadin Haloun he/him]

Do we have a definitive yes she is lvl 4 now, or is it just that she progressed farther than any one else?  She regressed, and from what I have seen has not made it back to where she was as a child.  Now if she can come to terms with her issues than yes, but she is still hiding from the truth.  I feel like the issue of her and pattern killing her mother still isn't fully resolved.

[Fallen_Ash]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin having zero character development is not because his character is unable to grow or because there he is nothing more than a blank state, it merely is a by-product of the author's narrative choices. Brandon does not want to put the focus on Adolin and, as such, he reads as bland, one dimensional and a tad superficial. However if we take the various elements within his character, things such as parental pressure, perfectionism, dysfunctional family, murdered mother, inability to form meaningful relationship with his peers and lack of magical abilities in a world where everyone he knows is getting them, then we have the making of a very interesting character. The problem is Adolin never gets enough page time nor viewpoints nor insights to read as the really interesting character he could be. Instead, he is just kind of there and when he does get viewpoints, they are wasted having him do things or take action for the other characters.

See, I don't mind if Adolin never has to explore any of the darkness in his life. I LIKE him basic. In a book full of really broken people, it's pretty refreshing to have someone who is just good. Even the worst thing he's ever done—killing Sadeas, which I think many of us thought was going to be a much bigger conflict in this book—wasn't even an issue. I like that Brandon has (so far) kept him a little bland, because it's allowed him to be the nice guy. The guy who guides Kaladin through Shadesmar. The guy who upholds his family's honor through duels. The guy who went to prison to support Kaladin. The guy who's there for Shallan even though she's not honest with him. 

It's because of Adolin's niceness that I like him as a character, and why I don't want him to be with Shallan. Shallan...is not a nice person. She feels guilty about teasing Adolin...but only because she sees him as too dim to get the joke. She judges Adolin for checking out a cute girl on their first date, then openly gawks at Kaladin in front of him. Plus, she so rarely considers how her actions might affect others. The one time she tried to do something nice, she got people killed! 

I understand how important it is for your partner/spouse to be a moral support and help you get through the tough times, and I believe Adolin can do that for Shallan (if she chooses to be honest with him), but I don't see her reciprocating. Say he does find out his dad killed his mom. Would she be there for him...or would she crack a joke, repress the memories, and slip off into the night to visit the Ghostbloods? 

Of course, she is likely going to get some serious character development (I hope), but I don't think this is a healthy way to start a marriage. You shouldn't go into marriage expecting everything to work itself out. She entered into a really serious commitment without really considering what it means, which I think is VERY unfair to Adolin. 

I wish Brandon hadn't "settled" the love triangle without allowing the characters to work out some of these issues, because I feel like we have a sham happy ending. Then again, now that she's committed to one person, maybe it will be easier for her to become less fractured. 

 

On another note, my husband is a major Shalladin shipper and he just started OB. He keeps getting really excited during all the Shalladin teases, and my heart is breaking on his behalf  I feel like I should warn him not to get his hopes up, but I don't want to spoil the book for him.  

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Do we have a definitive yes she is lvl 4 now, or is it just that she progressed farther than any one else?  She regressed, and from what I have seen has not made it back to where she was as a child.  Now if she can come to terms with her issues than yes, but she is still hiding from the truth.  I feel like the issue of her and pattern killing her mother still isn't fully resolved.

 

Quote

 

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2845

Kaladin is on step 3, which would make Shallan to be on step 4.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[Fallen_Ash]

28 minutes ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Do we have a definitive yes she is lvl 4 now, or is it just that she progressed farther than any one else?  She regressed, and from what I have seen has not made it back to where she was as a child.  Now if she can come to terms with her issues than yes, but she is still hiding from the truth.  I feel like the issue of her and pattern killing her mother still isn't fully resolved.

She doesn't have Shardplate yet. I believe OB said Skybreakers don't get theirs until level 4, so it might be similar for other orders. WoB is that each order gets their Shardblade at different levels, so it's likely that the same rule applies to Shardplate, but I would guess most Radiants get it earlier than the fifth ideal, at least. 

And since each order is different, we don't know how advanced she was when she killed her mom. It's possible that a Lightweaver can manifest a Shardblade after saying the first Words (though that's probably unlikely). 

[Guest]

You don't have to answer me, but I invite you to. Don't think, that I don't respect your opinion. I just want to give another perspective.

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Factually, Adolin and Shallan have expressed interest and attraction towards each other frequently, intentionally chosen to spend a lot time together to have fun and get to know each other better, think about each other a lot, express how much they care about the future of the relationship, and try their best to support the other person's feelings and goals.

Attraction - check.

Dating - check, but it was kind of expected from them due to being in a causal betrothal.

Thinking about each other - Adolin more than Shallan. Shallan's thoughts are all over the place.

Expression of how much they care about the future of their relationship - Adolin yes, Shallan not so much.

Support - Once again, Adolin yes, Shallan? I must vehemently disagree. I can't remember an instance, where she ever asked Adolin about his feelings about a matter, when it wasn't about her and her own anxieties. Hell, I can't even remember a simple How are you? Where Adolin acts completely selfless, she acts selfish. Sure, she helps him with the murder investigation, but she also helps Kaladin opening the Oathgate to Thaylen City... It is not like Shallan is a person, that is not helpful or not glad to help, but she is completely selfish in regards to feelings, which is bad. Very bad, when it comes long lasting relationships, especially with a rather passive, who just accepts that circumstance, partner like Adolin. This is stuff, that, after the honeymoon phase full of passion ends, creates distance between partners and one sided relationships

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Kaladin and Shallan got lost in a chasm once, had a conversation with a kindred spirit which was nice, only spent time in the other's presence when Adolin was around, spent some time thinking about the other but ultimately chose not spend time together or use whatever time they had together getting to know each other, instead exchanging barbs and being kind of mean to each other.

You know... before the chasm, they hated each other, right? Not only because of their difference in social status, but also personally. They spent a day or so in the chasm and overcame all of that. Hell, they have grown to like each other. There are plenty of hints of that in Part one and a bit in Part two of Oathbringer, where Shallan gives Kaladin nicknames, keeps track of him, while he is away (we learn of his reports back to Urithiru solely through her and not through Dalinar or someone else), involuntarily draws a near perfect sketch of him drawing creationspren etc. Vice versa, Kaladin confesses that he likes Shallan to the reader, when Syl confronts him with it.

They spend the time they have alone to have normal conversation, in fact, Shallan acts the most natural around Kaladin, with that I mean, the way she was before she fractured her personality due to the trauma of remembering her mother's death by her hand. She's just getting abrasive at him, when Adolin is around. I think, it is because she is in denial of how much she actually likes Kaladin, thus we see herself pushing those feelings off to Veil. Luckily, Kaladin in stoic (and probably depressed) enough, that he doesn't let it get to him.

Why don't they spend more time together? Because Adolin is between them. I don't mean it offensive, it is just a statement of fact.

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Even when Shallan was thinking about Kaladin, it was drawing his face or thinking "I should go flirt with him" and not even ... about him? I just haven't seen Shallan and Kaladin caring about each other's wants and needs.

Sure. She is attracted to him, but she actually thinks about him. She thinks about his passion and intensity. She's actually building up longwinded metaphors for it in her head. She thinks, about his life story, that he told her. She hasn't forgotten all that.

They don't care about each others wants or needs? Now, that is just plain wrong. On the boat, Kaladin tells her about his desire to go to Thaylen City, he is confident, that Dalinar is in danger and, even though, Shallan is sceptical about it, she thinks about it and actually approaches him to talk about it a few chapters later. Has she ever done something like that for Adolin? I can't remember. Hell, when Adolin's fashion thing comes out again, Shallan actually thinks Oh, Adolin..., which, while affectionate, also shows, that she is deriding it a bit. Vice versa, Adolin needed to be persuaded to finally do someting Shallan wanted to do (the menagerie visit) and even then he didn't really show any interest in what Shallan is doing, instead wandering away and letting a child play with his Shardplate helmet. Kaladin also recognized how happy Shallan looked, while flying and immediately felt the desire to show her how to really fly. He just slammed down that thought, because of... Adolin.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC