[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Ailvara]

17 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

...

Storms, that's good. I like how the mirroring is concurrent, as the E/D/N part of the... square was explored in OB and the G/D/N was more of a thing back when S/A/K mirrored that aspect of the situation better.

This foreshadows Shallan hurting Adolin in the way that made me gasp (although I expected it anyway). I think it won't be that extreme though, because Shallan won't have ten years to put herself together as Roshar kind of needs her asap. So my guess is we're here for some serious drama, but not necessarily Shallan being the cause of Adolin's death. The way she's (not) coping now, I can't see her getting over that, like, ever.

Sidenote: the reputation limit is killing me.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Ailvara

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

@AilvaraThank you!

4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

This foreshadows Shallan hurting Adolin

That why I said it might be differrent enough that this may change. But regardless, more drama isn't necessarily bad if it's well written. 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[Egomere]

@DimChatz I actually kinda like that theory. Twisty enough and slightly different enough to be untraditional and interesting...

hmmm will keep it in mind for my re-read. maybe see things in a different light now the possibility has been mentioned...

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 minute ago, Egomere said:

Twisty enough and slightly different enough to be untraditional and interesting...

Right?! That's why I feel so excited since this morning. This theory uplifted me and gave me somenting new to look forwars for.

[Ailvara]

5 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

@AilvaraThank you!

That why I said it might be differrent enough that this may change. But regardless, more drama isn't necessarily bad if it's well written. 

 

Yes, it's already different and will continue to be, but the main points need to stay the same if the analogy is to hold. So in both cases we have arranged marriage, but in one case it's all there is to start with, while in the other the final decision to marry is supported by feelings (even if we argue if they're shallow or not). Similarly, I don't expect Shallan to bury Adolin alive, but I can't see this getting resolved without her making his life miserable at some point.

[Harbour he/him]

@DimChatz great theory. Fully support it now. Ill add that Adolin is Evi's son. He may have some father' qualities, but his kindness and sweetyness is definitely an Evi's genes.

And Shallan destroying the marriage in similar way as Dalinar did would be great twist. You dont even need to push it that far and kill Adolin. No, Shallan can do something that will make Adolin realize that there is the end. Boom!

[Guest]

@DimChatz

Whew, respect. Have completely forgot the E/D/N angle of parallelism. Shallan doesn't have to kill Adolin, I agree. Just her realizing and saying, that she doesn't really love him would throw him off-kilter, I think.

Would work with the timeskip too... Let some drama brew and we get the climax and aftermath.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

Just now, Ailvara said:

Yes, it's already different and will continue to be, but the main points need to stay the same if the analogy is to hold. So in both cases we have arranged marriage, but in one case it's all there is to start with, while in the other the final decision to marry is supported by feelings (even if we argue if they're shallow or not). Similarly, I don't expect Shallan to bury Adolin alive, but I can't see this getting resolved without her making his life miserable at some point.

Yeah, I can see what you mean.

Sidenote: The reputation limit kills me as well, I want to give reputation to show many people here but I can't. But I think it's a very good rule.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 minute ago, Harbour said:

@DimChatz great theory. Fully support it now. Ill add that Adolin is Evi's son. He may have some father' qualities, but his kindness and sweetyness is definitely an Evi's genes.

And Shallan destroying the marriage in similar way as Dalinar did would be great twist. You dont even need to push it that far and kill Adolin. No, Shallan can do something that will make Adolin realize that there is the end. Boom!

 

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

@DimChatz

Whew, respect. Have completely forgot the E/D/N angle of parallelism. Shallan doesn't have to kill Adolin, I agree. Just her realizing and saying, that she doesn't really love him would throw him off-kilter, I think.

Would work with the timeskip too... Let some drama brew and we get the climax and aftermath.

I'm so glad that you guys like it. It was tuly an epiphany moment for me.

4 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Ill add that Adolin is Evi's son.

I hadn't even thought that, nice catch.

[Harbour he/him]

@DimChatz i also think the 1 year time skip was added to work on that theory. I really wouldnt be surprised if we will see Shallan in irritation thinking "Oh, god, Adolin and his sweety hugs again!" after 1 year of marriage.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

9 minutes ago, Harbour said:

@DimChatz i also think the 1 year time skip was added to work on that theory. I really wouldnt be surprised if we will see Shallan in irritation thinking "Oh, god, Adolin and his sweety hugs again!" after 1 year of marriage.

Yes all good points!

Sidenote(again): reputation limit is slowly killing me. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I really wouldnt be surprised if we will see Shallan in irritation thinking "Oh, god, Adolin and his sweety hugs again!" after 1 year of marriage.

Yes!

Oh, this has so much potential. IIRC Evi actually had the ability to give Dalinar some comfort at times, which Adolin definitely does for Shallan and Shallan already had thoughts, that "Adolin deserves something better than her", which Dalinar said too about Evi.

[PhineasGage]

@DimChatz my mind is *blown* away by this. I love this theory. We'll have to go back and look for important moments from Evi/Dalinar interactions to see what predictions we can make.

It also has the element of the arranged marriage, although they had a much longer engagement than Adolin and Shallan. On top of that, Adolin is going to have to get used a new role - a bit like Evi did. He will not only be married to an exceedingly important KR (I mean, she is the only LW we know for one thing) but he'll also be a Highprince in a world where he actually has no lands or power. Adolin is bound to feel like he is in a very foreign place (like Evi) because all of the things he grew up assuming would happen are now thrown into chaos. 

On top of that, Evi wanted Dalinar to want to spend time with her. I can definitely see this happening with Adolin and Shallan - she'll keep missing things with him because something else seemed more important at the time - or she will make herself believe it is more important the way Dalinar does. It isn't that he doesn't care for Evi, it is just that he doesn't care enough.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

9 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

@DimChatz my mind is *blown* away by this. I love this theory. We'll have to go back and look for important moments from Evi/Dalinar interactions to see what predictions we can make.

It also has the element of the arranged marriage, although they had a much longer engagement than Adolin and Shallan. On top of that, Adolin is going to have to get used a new role - a bit like Evi did. He will not only be married to an exceedingly important KR (I mean, she is the only LW we know for one thing) but he'll also be a Highprince in a world where he actually has no lands or power. Adolin is bound to feel like he is in a very foreign place (like Evi) because all of the things he grew up assuming would happen are now thrown into chaos. 

On top of that, Evi wanted Dalinar to want to spend time with her. I can definitely see this happening with Adolin and Shallan - she'll keep missing things with him because something else seemed more important at the time - or she will make herself believe it is more important the way Dalinar does. It isn't that he doesn't care for Evi, it is just that he doesn't care enough.

Oh man, I hadn't thought of any of those things in my rush to type this theory. Hopefully people will keep expanding on it and it gives me an incentive to reread as well, something I desperately was searching for! You were right in the PM, theorycrafting is both fun and fulfilling! 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz
Added some stuff.

[PhineasGage]

9 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

You were right in the PM, theorycrafting is both fun and fulfilling! 

Rule One - PhineasGage is always right.

Rule Two - If PhineasGage is wrong, see Rule One.

My biggest problem at the moment is that I want to do a thorough note taking read of OB that will allow me to look for patterns that relate to several ideas - Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin and their progression, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin as a mirror to Gavilar/Dalinar/Navani, Adolin and Mayalaran, the ideals of the windrunners (4th and 5th if possible), Hints about the Unmade, and now  Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan as a mirror to Evi/Dalinar/Navani. 

If I disappear for a while it's because I have accidentally buried myself in notepaper and I can't find my computer. I suspect I'd be an Elsecaller if I were a KR - I just want all the answers.

[Leyrann]

(just popping in to notify all of you that this thread is about to take over the Full Book Reactions Thread in amount of total posts...)

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Rule One - PhineasGage is always right.

Rule Two - If PhineasGage is wrong, see Rule One.

My biggest problem at the moment is that I want to do a thorough note taking read of OB that will allow me to look for patterns that relate to several ideas - Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin and their progression, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin as a mirror to Gavilar/Dalinar/Navani, Adolin and Mayalaran, the ideals of the windrunners (4th and 5th if possible), Hints about the Unmade, and now  Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan as a mirror to Evi/Dalinar/Navani. 

If I disappear for a while it's because I have accidentally buried myself in notepaper and I can't find my computer. I suspect I'd be an Elsecaller if I were a KR - I just want all the answers.

Godspeed, @PhineasGage, Godspeed!

[Darvys]

Upvoted for the new perspective, but i'm not sure how the story taking that path would be made to fit the current dynamic, while Evi wanted to change Dalinar, our whole problem with Adolin is that he's happy to keep Shallan stuck with a third of her personna. If the only issue Shallan had with him is that he was too lovey it would fall flat for me. Right now Shallan is embracing Adolin's image of her while Dalinar kept pushing the other way, unable to rein his nature in. Perhaps this is the twist that would add some spice to the symmetry, but that means Shallan would need to get on her own to a point where she can no longer be confined by Adolin's perception of her, don't know how that would happen after all the failures we saw in this book.

That aside, i also don't like the Navani = Kaladin aspect of the analogy, I want him to be free from Shallan (romantically) from now on, not keep hovering around like a vulture waiting for an opening, and the knowledge that any relationship he builds in the near future is just a placeholder wouldn't satisfy me.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

while Evi wanted to change Dalinar, our whole problem with Adolin is that he's happy to keep Shallan stuck with a third of her personna

Ah, but, I think, that Adolin thinks he's changing her for the better by doing what he does. He thinks, that Veil and Radiant are different entities from Shallan, so he treats them like that. He genuinely thinks, that he is doing the right thing.

Edited November 22, 2017 by SLNC

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Upvoted for the new perspective, but i'm not sure how the story taking that path would be made to fit the current dynamic, while Evi wanted to change Dalinar, our whole problem with Adolin is that he's happy to keep Shallan stuck with a third of her personna. If the only issue Shallan had with him is that he was too lovey it would fall flat for me. Right now Shallan is embracing Adolin's image of her while Dalinar kept pushing the other way, unable to rein his nature in. Perhaps this is the twist that would add some spice to the symmetry, but that means Shallan would need to get on her own to a point where she can no longer be confined by Adolin's perception of her, don't know how that would happen after all the failures we saw in this book.

That aside, i also don't like the Navani = Kaladin aspect of the analogy, I want him to be free from Shallan (romantically) from now on, not keep hovering around like a vulture waiting for an opening, and the knowledge that any relationship he builds in the near future is just a placeholder wouldn't satisfy me.

Fair points but right now I, personally, feel really good about the possibilities and the outcome and it makes me feel hopeful. I guess we'll see what happens.

[Ailvara]

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

That aside, i also don't like the Navani = Kaladin aspect of the analogy, I want him to be free from Shallan (romantically) from now on, not keep hovering around like a vulture waiting for an opening, and the knowledge that any relationship he builds in the near future is just a placeholder wouldn't satisfy me.

Actually that's one of the things I love about it. In previous assumption, Kaladin was aligned to Dalinar, who was definitely hovering around. I don't think we have such evidence for Navani, she seems to have taken all this in a much healthier manner. 

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, Darvys said:

That aside, i also don't like the Navani = Kaladin aspect of the analogy, I want him to be free from Shallan (romantically) from now on, not keep hovering around like a vulture waiting for an opening,

To be fair, he does hover a lot. Its kinda his thing right?

So I don't personally think Navani was hovering - I mean, Gavilar had been dead 6 years and it seems pretty clear that she hadn't made any significant moves on Dalinar before tWoK. She may have hinted, but Dalinar doesn't seem to really think she is interested until she "practically seduces" him. 

I understand people wanting Kaladin to be free of Shallan given that she is a total mess at the moment. But, personally, I really liked her in WoR. I think she not only has an interesting arc, but that she is genuinely likeable when she isn't playing a part. I can relate to her being torn between the different choices life is offering her. I like how she makes mistakes and tries to learn from. I also like that she is interested in learning. 

I must admit I liked her less in OB except when she is Veil - the character that, to me, aside from the bookishness, is the most like the Shallan we see in WoR. I feel that once she starts acknowledging and understanding her situation and starts healing, she'll be in a much better place for a romantic relationship - whoever it is with. Now, though? Well she's a "nightmare dressed like a daydream" (because apparently I am wiling to admit my dirty dirty secret of really liking that Taylor Swift song...)

15 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Adolin is that he's happy to keep Shallan stuck with a third of her personna.

So I agree with @SLNC's point about him thinking he's helping but I wanted to add to it. I think that Adolin believes that the Shallan he recognises is the "real Shallan" and that the others (ie Radiant and Veil) are mere illusions and that they are simply products of Shallan's imagination. Now there is some degree to which that is true because she has come up with a backstory to Veil, but she also acknowledges that Veil is simply a version of Shallan herself. Adolin doesn't want her "stuck" as she is, he wants her to be the person he sees within her - ie the mask she wears much of the time he is around her. Evi is convinced that Dalinar is better than he appears. He isn't. Dalinar in his flashbacks is a monster - you can't even say it was because of the Thrill because he himself says that he has to take responsibility because he chose to embrace it. Shallan is not the person Adolin sees. She is much worse than he currently knows. Indeed, his reaction to finding out that she killed both her parents would be an interesting mirror to how Evi reacts when she finds out Dalinar hasn't killed a child. The reflections are worth considering.

[Dreamstorm]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

Actually that's one of the things I love about it. In previous assumption, Kaladin was aligned to Dalinar, who was definitely hovering around. I don't think we have such evidence for Navani, she seems to have taken all this in a much healthier manner. 

Navani also wasn’t the catalyst for the end of the Dalinar/Evi marriage, so I like this symmetry as we won’t have to read too much more of the “triangle” part. I’m very much hoping Kaladin does his own thing, and Shallan(/Dalinar) can cause the destruction of her own marriage. Oh, I also am fervently hoping Adolin doesn’t die. I would also be extremely disappointed if the reason for his death is even partly to break up his relationship with Shallan...

[sylian]

I have seen the analogy the very same way, it just doesn't fit the other way around. And I don't have any issues with seeing Shallan and Kaladin find each other after, lets say, 10-15 years when both of them are much more mature and hopefully dealt with their issues. However I don't have the feeing that Shallan will be able to deal with her issues at all. I am more inclined to think that she might at some point sacrifice herself for the greater good with or without achieving inner peace.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Adolin doesn't want her "stuck" as she is, he wants her to be the person he sees within her - ie the mask she wears much of the time he is around her. Evi is convinced that Dalinar is better than he appears. He isn't. Dalinar in his flashbacks is a monster - you can't even say it was because of the Thrill because he himself says that he has to take responsibility because he chose to embrace it. Shallan is not the person Adolin sees. She is much worse than he currently knows. Indeed, his reaction to finding out that she killed both her parents would be an interesting mirror to how Evi reacts when she finds out Dalinar hasn't killed a child. The reflections are worth considering.

Mind. Blown.

Thank you so much for making the last minutes of my workday better. I would upvote, but sadly I'm out of them for today. So have an imaginary one.

Edited November 22, 2017 by SLNC