[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[insert_anagram_here]

This thread has kept me company for the whole day today (yes, I've read almost all of it) after I've binge-read Oathbringer for the last two days (no, I don't have a life anymore).

I hate to rehash everything said in this thread but please try and take this as a thank you to all of you taking part in it. <3

 

You have all helped me rationalize a lot of the hurt/disappointment how these three have evolved. You have all proven that it wasn't all in my head. Throughout the book I felt that I've been toyed by Sanderson into believing that Shallan - Kaladin could actually happen, even if I had mentally chastised and prepared myself beforehand that Shallan - Adolin made a lot more sense as an actual relationship, before starting the book. I kept saying "Love triangles are a cheap way to keep people interested and I refuse to fall for it Brandon!"

But it was a carefully planned set-up. I think that Sanderson has made an outstanding, complex and interesting character development, devoting the first book on Kaladin and the second book on Shallan.

I fell in love with them. From there it's easy to make the logical fallacy that they should fall for each other.

 

It has made me feel that no other character than each other could carry them on an equal terms relationship. 

But as an uncle of mine told me years ago "Two troubled people are bad for each other" ... And although examples in real life have showed me that this is probably true, I just wish it so much that, it would be wrong in this case.( yes, at this point I believe these two as alive individuals, that real life relationship dynamics apply for them.)

 

So I understand how we got here.

Adolin is extremely lovable, understanding, simple and focused on her. Even if this relationship is unfair to him, it is important for the future of Roshar, for Shallan to find an emotionally stable pillar of understanding and love.

Kaladin is too honorable to wedge himself in between a betrothal and at the same time too preoccupied with his own failures to actually seize the infinitely minimal interaction time he has with her, to achieve a meaningful connection.

And Shallan, poor Shallan is making huge falls backwards in this whole book. It hurts seeing her breaking up into these personalities. It feels like he is further sinking into a lie after lie, to the point that we, as readers, can't even tell what part of her is real. Why is this happening? When did it start? Stress from the Ghostbloods? Pressure of being a successful Knights Radiant? The lifelong yearning desire to be 'normally happy' ? (am I projecting?)

Even Wit/Hoid sees this and risks an attempt to make her realize what is happening to her. 

 

Nevertheless, I think as foreshadowing as Sanderson has been with these relationships, he has been just as much foreshadowing as to how we, as readers, would accept it.

 

Spoiler

Quote

“ An Accountability of Virtue.” He grunted. “Good book.” 

“You’ve read it?” 

“I have a fondness for Alethi epics,” he said absently, flipping through her pages. “She really should have picked Vadam though. Sterling was a flatterer and a cadger.” 

“Sterling is a noble and upright officer!” 

She narrowed her eyes. “And you are just trying to get a rise out of me, Ardent Urv.” 

“Maybe.” He flipped through her pages, studying a diagram she’d made of various Dawnchant grammars. “I have a copy of the sequel.” 

“There’s a sequel?” 

“About her sister.” 

“The mousy one?” 

“She is elevated to courtly attention and has to choose between a strapping naval officer, a Thaylen banker, and the King’s Wit.” 

“Wait. There are three different men this time?” 

“Sequels always have to be bigger,” he said, then offered her the stack of pages back

Quote

All great art is hated,” Wit said. 

He shuffled in line—along with a couple hundred other people—one dreary step. 

“It is obscenely difficult—if not impossible—to make something that nobody hates,” Wit continued. “Conversely, it is incredibly easy—if not expected—to make something that nobody loves.” 

Weeks after the fall of Kholinar, the place still smelled like smoke. Though the city’s new masters had moved tens of thousands of humans out to work farms, complete resettlement would take months, if not years. 

Wit poked the man in front of him in the shoulder. “This makes sense, if you think about it. Art is about emotion, examination, and going places people have never gone before to discover and investigate new things. The only way to create something that nobody hates is to ensure that it can’t be loved either. Remove enough spice from soup, and you’ll just end up with water.” 

The brutish man in front eyed him, then turned back to the line. 

“Human taste is as varied as human fingerprints,” Wit said. “Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate—but at least being hated is better than nothing. To risk metaphor, a grand painting is often about contrast: brightest brights, darkest darks. Not grey mush. That a thing is hated is not proof that it’s great art, but the lack of hatred is certainly proof that it is not.” 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Adolin is extremely lovable, understanding, simple and focused on her. Even if this relationship is unfair to him, it is important for the future of Roshar, for Shallan to find an emotionally stable pillar of understanding and love.

Storms, I get it, but if this is going to miraculously clean Shallan from her doubts and dissociative disorder, then I'll be very disappointed. Brandon takes great care in research and that is great, but the solution for severe mental issues is not a enabling relationship (and yes, Adolin is enabling by having blind acceptance).

And, storm, if I have ever have to read "without you I fade" again...

13 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Even Wit/Hoid sees this and risks an attempt to make her realize what is happening to her. 

And, of course, Shallan is doing the direct opposite of what she is supposed to do.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

51 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

To be honest with you guys, Shallan's reaction to the arranged marriage bothered me since WoR where she immediately responds positively to it and saying something along the lines of "I spend my whole life expecting my father to pick my husband" so, naturally, now that she's free from that and Jasnah suddenly suggests an arranged marriage she isn't bothered by it at all? No matter how beneficial it might be for her family having the freedom to chose taken from her so suddenly should annoy her even a little bit.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Shallan has spent her whole life expecting and preparing for an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages are not inherently bad. Plenty are very successful. I have friends who are in arranged marriages and they are happy with their respective spouses and its all worked out ok. Shallan was probably more worried that she might never marry because who would help her find a husband in a world where political arranged marriages are the norm for her class? I wasn't surprised at all she reacted like she did. She had just had a horrible experience with Kabsal and has no issue with the idea of getting married in principle. She also hasn't been free long enough to consider that she had a choice in this really. I do think that she anticipated that once a betrothal was in place, even a causal, that she was essentially tied to Adolin regardless of her feelings about him.

49 minutes ago, Egomere said:

Would it be cruel to want him to get sent to Braize (although he'd probably still come back with perfect hair) just to see if he finally progresses from Mr Nicest Guy to Mr Nicest Guy with some issues...

Yes, but it's ok, we won't tell anyone. 

37 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Um, maybe we should stop discussing this particular matter now? This is turning a bit into Adolin hating and I'm sure we are being harsher than we ought to...

We are, but perhaps we could say we are simply using Jasnah's "assuredness movement" (see beginning WoR). It is a way of venting then we can be more rational later. Maybe.

12 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

• Avoids responsability of killing Sadeas because "good riddance" and "we need a highprince and Renarin...Renarin...whatever"
• Avoids responsibility of becoming king because...he killed Sadeas?

IKR! *grumbles about how boy-band members and athletes get away with everything......*

Hello @insert_anagram_here and welcome! 

I agree with many of your points, but interestingly have ended up at some places opposite to yours even using the same logic (usually as a result of my 'rod-through-the-frontal-lobe logic)

6 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

“I have a fondness for Alethi epics,” he said absently, flipping through her pages. “She really should have picked Vadam though. Sterling was a flatterer and a cadger.” 

“Sterling is a noble and upright officer!” 

Depending on the situation, both Sterling and Vadam could potentially be both Adolin and Kaladin. BS is trolling us

. I suspect he is secretly watching this thread and cackling with glee.

9 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

But as an uncle of mine told me years ago "Two troubled people are bad for each other" ... And although examples in real life have showed me that this is probably true, I just wish it so much that, it would be wrong in this case.( yes, at this point I believe these two as alive individuals, that real life relationship dynamics apply for them.)

I agree with you wholeheartedly here - both for the book and for real life. That said, neither Kaladin nor Shallan need to stay broken. The premise of the nahel bond filling the cracks is that it can buttress the soul. We have 7 more books to go, and frankly, I'm going to ship them to the end and write fanfiction if I must. 

12 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Even if this relationship is unfair to him, it is important for the future of Roshar, for Shallan to find an emotionally stable pillar of understanding and love.

This, more than anything makes me wonder if BS is going to fix things. Not necessarily go down the Shalladin route. but perhaps forge some really good moments of real connection for Adolin and Shallan. I know we've just had a bit of an Adolin bashing sesh, but most of us don't actually want to watch him suffer in an unloving relationship (much). If BS could do it for Shalladin, why not Shadolin? If he does that, then alot of the issues in this thread magically disappear.

 

15 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Nevertheless, I think as foreshadowing as Sanderson has been with these relationships, he has been just as much foreshadowing as to how we, as readers, would accept it.

True - but that does technically apply to both sides of the Shadolin vs Shalladin 'war'. I will personally be disappointed if we dont end up with Shalladin (based on current information). But there are Shadolin shippers who will equally disappointed if Shadolin doesn't work out. It is easy to think "well they are married now, it must be the end of all Shallan ships" but that isn't necessarily true, and if we don't get more development in Shadolin, people are going to stop reading them. Not even the most die-hard Shadolin fan could keep up with the mushy nauseating stuff they've been reading for the past 2 books for another seven....Surely???

[Info_Drone-0451]

29 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Shallan has spent her whole life expecting and preparing for an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages are not inherently bad. Plenty are very successful. I have friends who are in arranged marriages and they are happy with their respective spouses and its all worked out ok. Shallan was probably more worried that she might never marry because who would help her find a husband in a world where political arranged marriages are the norm for her class? I wasn't surprised at all she reacted like she did. She had just had a horrible experience with Kabsal and has no issue with the idea of getting married in principle. She also hasn't been free long enough to consider that she had a choice in this really. I do think that she anticipated that once a betrothal was in place, even a causal, that she was essentially tied to Adolin regardless of her feelings about him.

I get what you're saying but it still bothers me. I wasn't implying that arranged marriages are bad, I haven't formed an opinion on the matter, I'm just irritated that another arranged marriage works in a BS book, it's rapidly becoming dull for me(if it hasn't already become), and that this one seems to be railroaded to success from the beggining. Concerning her experience with Kabsal, it feels that afterwards she's given an easy way out, like she failed once and she no longer needs to be concerned with the matter of romance because it's settled by someone else and it's all sunshine and rainbows from there. It's especially jarring, to me, after her saying "“I’d decided I couldn’t do it, but you convinced me that truth was not as simple as I thought it. You’ve opened a box full of storms in me. I made a mistake. I’ll make more." in a way that implied she wanted the adventure and experience but she immediately agrees to be beholden to somone else, as expressed by Jasnah who also seemed surprised by her reaction. I guess this might be one of the cases we have to agree to disagree(which I hate as a conversation ender but I find it a fine sentiment, after all we can't be expected to agree on anything or to change each other's views all the time, that'd be boring)

29 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

"assuredness movement" (see beginning WoR)

I think the "assuredness movement" is brought up in the Way of Kings when Jasnah sets Shallan to studying her father's murder and right before they first converse regarding her wit.

 

29 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I suspect he is secretly watching this thread and cackling with glee.

Well, I hope so. Because it's a win-win situation. He gets a good laugh and we have our feedback and concerns heard instead of dismissed and ignored as merely "shipping" 

Edited November 24, 2017 by DimChatz
Added some stuff.

[Awesomness]

21 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

35 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I suspect he is secretly watching this thread and cackling with glee.

Well, I hope so. Because it's a win-win situation. He gets a good laugh and we have our feedback and concerns heard instead of dismissed and ignored as merely "shipping" 

Can we discuss again the possibility of writing an assay about this and send it to him or post it somewhere he may read it?

[Arch]

22 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

It’s more than I don’t trust anyone from any order as completely espousing an ideal. Take Windrunners... many of Bridge Four have already taken the second oath and yet they still abandon Theylan City. How does that align at all with protecting those who cannot protect themselves? Pulling back to (supposedly - they don’t know the oathgate will be breached) well-defended Urithiru and letting countless citizens of TC die all because eons ago humans invaded Roshar does not seem to embody that ideal in any way or shape.

I see what you're geting at, but i think there's something you missread. For one Bridge 4 had no intention of abandoning Theylan city... They oathgated back to Urithiru so they could tell the other bridgemen the news about the Dawnsingers, but ended up getting trapped there because of the attack. Sure they were confused about their long-term goals as radiants and wanted to hear Kaladins opinion first, but abondoning the Theylans was never the plan (they led the reinforcements afterall).
 

22 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

More specifically to Skybreakers, I think anyone who “strictly” follows any law can twist that law for their own good, i.e. Nale killing Radiants. He “justified” that by saying he was punishing them for past crimes, but he was actually guided solely by an ulterior motive. I can’t imagine there are not other ways to twist the Skybreaker principles. 

Nale says that the 5th ideal gives him some "liberties", but we don't quite understand that ideal yet so its hard to say. We do however know that the ideals have a lot to do with perception and if the skybreakers sincerely thought they were breaking their oaths (or twisting them) then their nahel bonds would just start failing. Since we don't see that happening, we can conclude they at least believe that they're following their oaths (even if you personally disagree).

sorry it took so long to answer that 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Arch

[Info_Drone-0451]

11 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Can we discuss again the possibility of writing an assay about this and send it to him or post it somewhere he may read it?

That sounds good but there might be some issues with that.

• this thread has gotten so huge that it would be a nightmare to shift through, but we can get around that by each submitting points that theu feel should be included
• who's going to write it? It seems like quite a big task, but let's say that somebody volunteers (I'm afraid I can't, not only due to time constraints but, also, because English isn't my native and I wouldn't want to mess it up)
• I feel sending a huge essay to BS might be too forward, not to mention it might get lost within the rest of the feedback he must be receiving right now. He's also a busy man, would he have time to read a huge wall of text?
• would it actually have an effect? Aren't the books planned and isn't he set on writting the story he feels is better, and rightly so?

Your suggestion is a good one but there are a lot of issues that need solving, but if we can manage to work them out I say go for it. Ultimately, I think the best we can do is spread our concerns and doudts and do not let ourselves become dissuaded by negativity regarding our opinions, while being repectful and mindful of other people's views.

[insert_anagram_here]

23 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Storms, I get it, but if this is going to miraculously clean Shallan from her doubts and dissociative disorder, then I'll be very disappointed. Brandon takes great care in research and that is great, but the solution for severe mental issues is not a enabling relationship (and yes, Adolin is enabling by having blind acceptance).

And, storm, if I have ever have to read "without you I fade" again...

And, of course, Shallan is doing the direct opposite of what she is supposed to do.

I believe that "without you I fade" is exactly proving the point that she knows that Adolin is the anchor that keeps this new illusion of herself from fading (like her newly acquired power of attaching illusions to spheres?). At the same time it proves that their relationship is build upon immature notions, sweet words and cheesy clichés of what appears to be a "normal happy relationship". Their relationship feels like a fleeting adolescent wish that gets serious abnormally fast. The fact that just looking at Kaladin threatened this relationship, is also proof of how shallow it all is.

 

I am with you on this, I do not think blind acceptance is helping here and she wrongly interprets Wit's advice. Adolin is enabling her further to escape through lying instead of facing the truth head on.

If she wants to grow as a person and as a Knight's Radiant she will have to accept the truth behind the lies. It's part of the Lightweaver's ideals. This could potentially be how the character evolves later on, although I fear of what marriage and a possible pregnancy could turn this into a series of dark events.

 

Like Dalinar's Third Ideal:

Quote

 “I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” 

And later when he thinks back on his actions:

Quote

That was the coward’s route. Wishing for ignorance. The coward’s route he’d obviously taken—though he could not yet remember his visit to the Nightwatcher, he knew what he’d asked for. Relief from this awful burden. The ability to lie, to pretend he had not done such horrible things.

 

 

52 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Hello @insert_anagram_here and welcome! 

I agree with many of your points, but interestingly have ended up at some places opposite to yours even using the same logic (usually as a result of my 'rod-through-the-frontal-lobe logic)

Depending on the situation, both Sterling and Vadam could potentially be both Adolin and Kaladin. BS is trolling us

. I suspect he is secretly watching this thread and cackling with glee.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here - both for the book and for real life. That said, neither Kaladin nor Shallan need to stay broken. The premise of the nahel bond filling the cracks is that it can buttress the soul. We have 7 more books to go, and frankly, I'm going to ship them to the end and write fanfiction if I must. 

This, more than anything makes me wonder if BS is going to fix things. Not necessarily go down the Shalladin route. but perhaps forge some really good moments of real connection for Adolin and Shallan. I know we've just had a bit of an Adolin bashing sesh, but most of us don't actually want to watch him suffer in an unloving relationship (much). If BS could do it for Shalladin, why not Shadolin? If he does that, then alot of the issues in this thread magically disappear.

 

True - but that does technically apply to both sides of the Shadolin vs Shalladin 'war'. I will personally be disappointed if we dont end up with Shalladin (based on current information). But there are Shadolin shippers who will equally disappointed if Shadolin doesn't work out. It is easy to think "well they are married now, it must be the end of all Shallan ships" but that isn't necessarily true, and if we don't get more development in Shadolin, people are going to stop reading them. Not even the most die-hard Shadolin fan could keep up with the mushy nauseating stuff they've been reading for the past 2 books for another seven....Surely???

Thank you for welcoming me, this thread is all I know at this point. Hopefully I'll find the strength to move on into other discussions...

I didn't think either Adolin or Kaladin were Sterling or Vadam in the quote, but I mearly wanted to note how Sanderson is indeed trolling us here.

He is aware how love triangles are treated within books and I am hopeful that he has a greater plan for all of this instead of leading us on into tropes.

I think we are still early on in the story and it is still vague enough that he can fix it on either path, or maybe both eventually.

Surely if it takes him 2 and a half years to publish each book and he plans on a total on ten, this will expand into a 25year epic that could be his life achievement. Expectations are high. #nopressure (in case he is actually watching this thread)

 

[Lightflame]

I spent a while yesterday reading the second half of this thread, and it stuck in my head so much I had a dream about it.

I was reading the thread, and one user said that the chapter titles were helping Shallan to heal by giving her reassurance so that she could get better.

Another replied that the chapter titles were lies created by Axies the Collector, and were leading her astray.

Then a third user said that Axies was a known follower of Odium, and was trying to get Shallan to choose Odium as her husband.

I woke up wondering if Odium flies.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Lightflame
Typo

[Arch]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

 Adolin Kholin, Mr. Nicest Person on Roshar, faces no consequences killing a highprince in cold blood, gets the girl, helps her overcome her issues, revives his Shardblade, becomes a storming Edgedancer, you know, just on the side.

With so many things, on the surface at least, going right for Adolin it seems to me more likely that Sanderson is actually setting him up to get completely crushed down the road. Not necessarily die or turn evil, but something really traumatic up ahead...  When Adolin was a kid, Dalinar noted that nothing ever actually discourages him. He just comes back more ernest than ever. And while that's a good character trait it just can't last in series like this can it? It makes me wonder if his mothers death and his father becoming a wroth alcoholic for years didn't phase him, what will actually break him?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Arch said:

With so many things, on the surface at least, going right for Adolin it seems to me more likely that Sanderson is actually setting him up to get completely crushed down the road. Not necessarily die or turn evil, but something really traumatic up ahead...  When Adolin was a kid, Dalinar noted that nothing ever actually discourages him. He just comes back more ernest than ever. And while that's a good character trait it just can't last in series like this can it? It makes me wonder if his mothers death and his father becoming a wroth alcoholic for years didn't phase him, what will actually break him?

I had the same thought, but I'm not holding my breath, because.. well... we're talking about storming Adolin Kholin.

Even when he had a gut wound, I never felt he was in danger... "Well, Renarin will probably heal him any minute now." is what I thought. Yeah, that is how it turned out.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[Arch]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I had the same thought, but I'm not holding my breath, because.. well... we're talking about storming Adolin Kholin.

Maybe I'm in denial, but as a prominent secondary character in Stormlight "depressing backstory" Archive, I just can't see his main personality fault just being bad at holding on to women..

[Guest]

Just now, Arch said:

I just can't see his main personality fault just being bad at holding on to women..

Would be hilarious though... right?

[Arch]

Maybe for some interlude character, lol

[PhineasGage]

28 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Can we discuss again the possibility of writing an assay about this and send it to him or post it somewhere he may read it?

I am in the process of doing a compare and contrast for OB to go with my compare contrast for WoR (Shadolin vs Shalladin). It is still in very early stages and will likely take quite a long while to complete as I will be using in book evidence which needs quoting etc.  I'll see about putting it up on a blog or something when its done then I'll link it here for people to read. Be warned, my WoR essay (which is complete but technically needs proofing) is 58 pages long.... I have issues.

I wouldn't want it to be sent to Brandon though as I don't think it is fair to put that kind of thing on an author. I would just be doing it for my own benefit and the enjoyment of anyone who wanted to read it.  

I also personally wouldn't want to go through the thread and summarise people's thoughts without a) their permission and b ) their willingness to correct my work. I'd rather write it myself then alter it as comments came in to reflect/add additional thoughts and opinions. 

Also, just saw that @DimChatz has also raised some additonal valid points to this.

 

9 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Their relationship feels like a fleeting adolescent wish that gets serious abnormally fast. The fact that just looking at Kaladin threatened this relationship, is also proof of how shallow it all is.

Ok, so I'm arguing against my own interest a little here, but Shallan actually tolerates Adolin's wandering eyes quite well, although I think a bit of jealousy at the beginning is normal. Adolin is the one who gets jealous but perhaps this is as much a reflection of their characters rather than the relationship. I think its ok to get a bit jealous as long as you air out your concerns and work through it rather than letting it fester. I am less concerned about this aspect of their relationship than the fact that they are still so obviously honeymooning. I do agree it is otherwise very adolescent.

 

17 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

If she wants to grow as a person and as a Knight's Radiant she will have to accept the truth behind the lies. It's part of the Lightweaver's ideals. This could potentially be how the character evolves later on, although I fear of what marriage and a possible pregnancy could turn this into a series of dark events.

Argh no, we're back to the pregnancy thing. If Shallan has a baby I'm probably quitting. I am not getting on board with teenaged motherhood and the idea that motherhood will "fix" her. If anything, pregnancy, and particular the post-partum period are the worst things to go through when you have a mental health disorder..... Plus seriously, Adolin and Shallan's kids would have the wierdest hair. 

20 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

That was the coward’s route. Wishing for ignorance. The coward’s route he’d obviously taken—though he could not yet remember his visit to the Nightwatcher, he knew what he’d asked for. Relief from this awful burden. The ability to lie, to pretend he had not done such horrible things.

Yes I agree this is the key thing for all of our Radiants but particularly Shallan going forward. I am unsure if BS wants us to think she has taken that route with Adolin or simply that she has taken it by not really confronting her dissociation.

20 minutes ago, Lightflame said:

Another replied that the chapter titles were lies created by Axies the Collector, and were leading her astray.

I think your dreams are wonderful ideas for new theory threads! I mean obviously Axies is wanting to lead Shallan astray. Why wouldn't he? 

11 minutes ago, Arch said:

We do however know that the ideals have a lot to do with perception and if the skybreakers sincerely thought they were breaking their oaths (or twisting them) then their nahel bonds would just start failing. Since we don't see that happening, we can conclude they at least believe that they're following their oaths (even if you personally disagree).

Great point. This is where the aspect of perception being really important. There are no "truths" in the cognitive realm, just perceptions according to Shallan. The spiritual realm is allegedly the realm of pure truth. 

16 minutes ago, Arch said:

With so many things, on the surface at least, going right for Adolin it seems to me more likely that Sanderson is actually setting him up to get completely crushed down the road. Not necessarily die or turn evil, but something really traumatic up ahead...  When Adolin was a kid, Dalinar noted that nothing ever actually discourages him. He just comes back more ernest than ever. And while that's a good character trait it just can't last in series like this can it? It makes me wonder if his mothers death and his father becoming a wroth alcoholic for years didn't phase him, what will actually break him?

Yes I agree, it is a way of making us (well some of us) invest in him as this great guy with great hair, a great smile, a great marriage, a great family....blah blah blah, then crush our souls and make us weep.

If his luck does last it will be the most boring arc of any arc ever arced in the history of arcs. 

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I had the same thought, but I'm not holding my breath, because.. well... we're talking about storming Adolin Kholin.

Even when he had a gut wound, I never felt he was in danger... "Well, Renarin will probably heal them any minute now." is what I thought. Yeah, that is how it turned out.

His name literally means "born unto Light". He basically is like cosmere Superman. Without the flying.

Speaking of which, Superman is seriously boring. I mean the guy doesn't have an interesting bone in his body.

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

7 minutes ago, Arch said:

I just can't see his main personality fault just being bad at holding on to women..

Would be hilarious though... right?

Only if it was because when he gets his edgedancer powers he can't control them properly and literally cannot hold on to women because his hands are too slick.

Note I said when, not if. This is Adolin after all. Have we got it wrong this whole time and it is actually his story??

Kinda changes the outlook a bit....

[Arch]

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

His name literally means "born unto Light". He basically is like cosmere Superman. Without the flying.

And brooding Kaladin is cosmere Batman with the flying. My god... Kaladin's going to have women throughing themselves at him for the rest of the series.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Arch said:

Kaladin's going to have women throughing themselves at him for the rest of the series.

And in front of the queue: Veil. I mean, she obviously doesn't see herself as Shallan soooo

Okay, now we're being silly.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[insert_anagram_here]

@PhineasGage I'd love to read your work on this, at this point I could say I am going through an obsessive phase. #thehypeisreal

Now about the potential future motherhood, I do not believe it to be a solution either, but simply a natural turn of events. They are getting married after all and they are not teenagers. Dalinar and Evi went through a problematic marriage (understatement, considering it ended in holocaust), but surprisingly the children didn't turn out psychopaths, yet.

I could see Shallan fragmenting into a further motherhood persona and yes, it could get really unpleasant.

 

@SLNC 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I had the same thought, but I'm not holding my breath, because.. well... we're talking about storming Adolin Kholin.

Even when he had a gut wound, I never felt he was in danger... "Well, Renarin will probably heal him any minute now." is what I thought. Yeah, that is how it turned out.

With all the Shallan-Kaladin hints in Oathbreaker I actually thought that the gut wound could turn out tragically fatal for Adolin, getting rid of the loose end, "oh what a shame he dies a hero" kind of thing. But maybe it was wishful thinking into the easy way out of the painful love triangle.

@Arch 

If I let that dark imagination rampage into the Stormlight "depressing backstory" Archive I can only see going into a failed marriage, unraveling family secrets and lies, trauma resurfacing about Evi's loss, maybe a little Odium seasoning and turning over to the dark side *cough* like a dark knight *cough*

Edited November 24, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Now about the potential future motherhood, I do not believe it to be a solution either, but simply a natural turn of events.

I'm no religious man, but I'd start praying if it meant that this won't happen. Shallan as a mother right now would be awful. Adolin as a father probably pretty good though.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[insert_anagram_here]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Shallan as a mother right now would be awful.

Why?

[Awesomness]

48 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I am in the process of doing a compare and contrast for OB to go with my compare contrast for WoR (Shadolin vs Shalladin). It is still in very early stages and will likely take quite a long while to complete as I will be using in book evidence which needs quoting etc.  I'll see about putting it up on a blog or something when its done then I'll link it here for people to read. Be warned, my WoR essay (which is complete but technically needs proofing) is 58 pages long.... I have issues.

I wouldn't want it to be sent to Brandon though as I don't think it is fair to put that kind of thing on an author. I would just be doing it for my own benefit and the enjoyment of anyone who wanted to read it.  

I also personally wouldn't want to go through the thread and summarise people's thoughts without a) their permission and b ) their willingness to correct my work. I'd rather write it myself then alter it as comments came in to reflect/add additional thoughts and opinions. 

jaajjja @PhineasGage you do have issues! 

What I suggested was mostly a joke (mostly). I understand completely your point. I wish he knew our thoughts, but not because of a ship war, but because there are narrative issues here.I don't care (mostly) where he takes his characters, as long as he makes them take a coherent path. 

That said, I still have a lot of faith in the man. I've read almost all of his work and never, not even in his first couple of books, felt like this. So I'm in denial and plan on staying that way until SA4.

I´d like to read your essay when its out, ando hope it gets visibility

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Why?

Because she can't even get her own life in order, let alone the life of an infant added on top of that. Plus, she's like 18 right now? Barely an adult.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

36 minutes ago, Arch said:

And brooding Kaladin is cosmere Batman with the flying. My god... Kaladin's going to have women throughing themselves at him for the rest of the series.

Of course. Because Batman. And as we all know, the Polite Lady's Handbook to Courtship and Family says you cannot possibly marry a man if he can't fly.

8 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@PhineasGage I'd love to read your work on this, at this point I could say I am going through an obsessive phase. #thehypeisreal

Now about the potential future motherhood, I do not believe it to be a solution either, but simply a natural turn of events. They are getting married after all and they are not teenagers. Dalinar and Evi went through a problematic marriage (understatement, considering it ended in holocaust), but surprisingly the children didn't turn out psychopaths, yet.

I could see Shallan fragmenting into a further motherhood persona and yes, it could get really unpleasant.

I think Shallan is 17 or 18 at present? And I don't buy the "Oh is she were on earth she'd be [insert age here after some complicated maths] so its ok. She's a teenager where she is! She hasn't even finished growing! 

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I'm no religious man, but I'd start praying if it meant that this won't happen. Shallan as a mother right now would be awful: Adolin as a father probably pretty good though.

Don't be silly, Adolin would be a wonderful father to go along with everything else that just works out for him.

 

1 minute ago, Awesomness said:

I´d like to read your essay when its out, ando hope it gets visibility

Yikes, I just scared myself with this idea.... Can I pretend this conversation never happened please?

[sylian]

I kind of get the feeling some of you are underestimating Adolin. The guy has been trained from early childhood to be at least a general. I think he doesn't shine bright only because his father is still around and doing the leading business. Adolin being completely at ease with Kaladin after Kholinar is something that speaks to me about not only knowledge but experience. He is the one that stands when everybody is backing down. I think he is quite brilliant in his role. What I don't like in him now and I think he'll have to deal with is his lack of confidence that he can be of use with all those flying people around. 

[insert_anagram_here]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Because she can't even get her own life in order, let alone the life of an infant added on top of that.

Yes, I understand as much, and it will create a lot of drama and conflict but I thought that is the point of the books. Just because it's scary doesn't mean that it cannot happen.

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I think Shallan is 17 or 18 at present? And I don't buy the "Oh is she were on earth she'd be [insert age here after some complicated maths] so its ok. She's a teenager where she is! She hasn't even finished growing! 

She is 20 according to this chronology. It's okay to get married but not okay to have kids? What's the point of marriage then?