[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[FuzzyWordsmith]

22 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Now if someone can also explain two of the things which people have noted and that also bother me... the complete acceptance of Szeth (our big bad just a book before!)

I think it might come down to pragmatism. They know his story now, and they know what he's capable of. Practically speaking, if he's claiming to follow Dalinar's word as law, which doesn't seem like the kind of thing a Skybreaker could convincingly lie about, it's better to have him around, if only to keep an eye on him. Besides, Dalinar is a good judge of character.

Edited November 23, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[AubreyWrites she/her]

@Valand yeah I saw that Typo as soon as it posted! One handed typing on a phone is not the easiest way to participate in discussions!  

but she goes out of her way to interact with him in a way that she doesn't with any others than Kaladin and now apparently Shallan. 

It is curious - I thought maybe it was just because of pattern that she was interested in Shallan (leaving out syl's intevestment in shalladin) but if that were the case wouldn't she be super curious about All the others KR too? Hmmm good for thought 

[Dreamstorm]

9 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I think it might come down to pragmatism. They know his story now, and they know what he's capable of. Practically speaking, if he's claiming to follow Dalinar's word as law, which doesn't seem like the kind of thing a Skybreaker could convincingly lie about, it's better to have him around, if only to keep an eye on him. Besides, Dalinar is a good judge of character.

I guess I see that if you trust that Skybreakers are unfailingly loyal to who they choose to follow... I personally don’t and I have more information than our main characters on the order, so that doesn’t get me there. (Not saying that’s not Brandon’s reasoning though.) 

On Dalinar, I was going to say no he doesn’t, Sadeas!, but the Rift tragedy helps explain Dalinar’s blind spot in that regard.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I think it might come down to pragmatism. They know his story now, and they know what he's capable of. Practically speaking, if he's claiming to follow Dalinar's word as law, which doesn't seem like the kind of thing a Skybreaker could convincingly lie about, it's better to have him around, if only to keep an eye on him. Besides, Dalinar is a good judge of character.

Yeah but he just shows up in the middle of the battle and they aren't even like ....'dude, aren't you dead?' 

Instead it's all like 

"oh no! The assassin in white! The bane of Roshar for the last six and a half years! Wait- you are with us now! Ok that's cool man!" 

Say whhhat?

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Yeah but he just shows up in the middle of the battle and they aren't even like ....'dude, aren't you dead?' 

Instead it's all like 

"oh no! The assassin in white! The bane of Roshar for the last six and a half years! Wait- you are with us now! Ok that's cool man!" 

Say whhhat?

They were in a desperate enough situation that I doubt they would turn their nose up at help. Two other things. We know they had a discussion offscreen, because it's mentioned he told them about the Skybreakers switching sides. Second, Lift seems to like Szeth. That holds weight out of world, but based on their interactions, I feel like Lift's opinion holds weight with Dalinar as well. She vouched for him to Azir, she came back for them, and she followed him into Nergaoul. I feel like that has to mean something to Dalinar. And he is kinda the boss.

Edited November 23, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[Arch he/him]

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I guess I see that if you trust that Skybreakers are unfailingly loyal to who they choose to follow... I personally don’t and I have more information than our main characters on the order, so that doesn’t get me there. (Not saying that’s not Brandon’s reasoning though.) 

This probably isnt the right place, but it seems I've recently become the prime Nale/Szeth/Skybreaker attorney so i have to ask.. why? From what we've read so far skybreakers and highspren or probably the most obsessive about codes and oaths.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

@FuzzyWordsmith I know but it was rather jarring for that conversation to take place off screen. And yeah he told them the sky breakers changed sides....and he's a sky breaker..... After being burned a couple times by people he TRUSTED Dalinar is just going to take his word at face value? Who's to say that he's not a spy now.  He has spent the entire series at odds with these people and now because Lift likes him Dalinar & Co are ok too?

WE know he's not but we are also privy to his decision making process and character up till now. 

I get not turning away obvious help in the middle of battle but afterwards Szeth is basically acting bodyguard for Dalinar? 

Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics 

Edited November 23, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[Dreamstorm]

2 minutes ago, Arch said:

This probably isnt the right place, but it seems I've recently become the prime Nale/Szeth/Skybreaker attorney so i have to ask.. why? From what we've read so far skybreakers and highspren or probably the most obsessive about codes and oaths.

It’s more than I don’t trust anyone from any order as completely espousing an ideal. Take Windrunners... many of Bridge Four have already taken the second oath and yet they still abandon Theylan City. How does that align at all with protecting those who cannot protect themselves? Pulling back to (supposedly - they don’t know the oathgate will be breached) well-defended Urithiru and letting countless citizens of TC die all because eons ago humans invaded Roshar does not seem to embody that ideal in any way or shape. More specifically to Skybreakers, I think anyone who “strictly” follows any law can twist that law for their own good, i.e. Nale killing Radiants. He “justified” that by saying he was punishing them for past crimes, but he was actually guided solely by an ulterior motive. I can’t imagine there are not other ways to twist the Skybreaker principles. 

[Harbour he/him]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Had another thought.

Mindblown.

Quote

Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.”

Quote

 

Veil and Radiant faded. When Shallan looked back into the mirror, she didn't feel embarrassed by the attention any longer. It was all right.

It was all right to be happy.

 

She totally didnt listen to Wit.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Harbour

[Guest]

Holy rust. I love this thread.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

15 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

@FuzzyWordsmith I know but it was rather jarring for that conversation to take place off screen. And yeah he told them the sky breakers changed sides....and he's a sky breaker..... After being burned a couple times by people he TRUSTED Dalinar is just going to take his word at face value? Who's to say that he's not a spy now.  He has spent the entire series at odds with these people and now because Lift likes him Dalinar & Co are ok too?

WE know he's not but we are also privy to his decision making process and character up till now. 

I get not turning away obvious help in the middle of battle but afterwards Szeth is basically acting bodyguard for Dalinar? 

Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics 

I completely agree with you on the bolded part. I do believe that the ending of OB after the climactic battle was really rushed. A lot of stuff that should have happened on screen didn't. But I feel like it is not unreasonable to believe they would trust him. It takes some mental gymnastics, but I feel that's not the characters' fault, it's more an issue with how rushed the ending was. Also, I feel that you may be undervaluing how much weight Lift's word holds. Of all the Radiants, Lift was the one with Dalinar in some extremely important situations. She's the only one who managed to follow him into Nergaoul. She's the only one who was with him when he stepped out to meet Odium. In addition, she was there the first time he met Odium in the vision. Additionally, a lot of Dalinar's arc this book was learning to trust other people and their Judgement, like the essays for the Azish. It may just be my interpretation, but it makes perfect sense to me that Dalinar would trust Lift a lot more than most people.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

. Also, I feel that you may be undervaluing how much weight Lift's word holds.

It may just be my interpretation, but it makes perfect sense to me that Dalinar would trust Lift a lot more than most people.

I do think Lift's vote counts for a lot - as evidenced by everything you brought up and yes I can see it carrying weight with Dalinar. But just because Dalinar accepts it (by the way with not even a blip on the radar of 'this guy killed my brother and tried to kill me multiple times ' doesn't mean everyone across the board would. Dalinar may be in charge but everyone else aren't automatons. They are bound to have varying degrees of acceptance on this issue. 

I just have a vision of Dalinar embodying Jean luc Picard in a 'make it so' moment when ordering everyone to get in line with the idea of Szeth joining the team and Riker in the background ( embodying everyone on team Dalinar) waffling his eyebrows like 'seriously?' 

[Egomere]

This thread just get better and better. I'm just gonna let @SLNC @FuzzyWordsmith @Harbour and @PhineasGage carry on the good work.

And the thought that it was Odium in the Ashertham mindmeld is horrifying. Hadn't thought of it like that before... I'm not entirely sure I agree with it - I accept it could be a possibility but I feel it was more of a weird Memory conversation Shallan had with Wit rather than a genuine conversation happening at that time with telepathy. (has there been any evidence of telepathy like that before? If yes I really need to re-read the entire series rather than just OB again...

36 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics 

Yaep it was - unfortunately it felt like there was way to many things that happened off scene after the Thay. City battle. It's also one of reasons I dislike 'time-skips' with series - because it feels like too much would have happened in the missed time that we don't learn about (or alternatively in this case it could be static white noise where nothing interesting happens - so like whats the point of the skip in the first place?)

32 minutes ago, Harbour said:

She totally didnt listen to Wit.

And yet she seems to feel that she took his advice to heart at the time of their conversation in Khor. Only to turn around and throw it all away for a complete lack of personnal growth - which is ofc what everyone's upset about.

Kinda looking forward to the trainwreck I suspect she's going to become later on in a horribly perverse fashion.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Egomere said:

I feel it was more of a weird Memory conversation Shallan had with Wit rather than a genuine conversation happening at that time with telepathy.

But why then this focus on emotions and sensations... It just seems so Odium-y to me. I'll call Occam's razor on it.

[Farnsworth]

Yeah, I wasn’t a huge fan of the whole triangle thing. To clichèd. I’m pretty glad with how this all turned out in general, but mostly I was glad it didn’t turn into a whole huge thing.

[Egomere]

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But why then this focus on emotions and sensations... It just seems so Odium-y to me. I'll call Occam's razor on it.

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

edit : Although it could be due to the 'personalities' of each unmade. Like Neragoul and some of the other Unmade seem rather... simple / focussed and Sja-anat might have some more autonomy...

Hmmm will think some more.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Egomere

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Egomere said:

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

Maybe it is bound to the sentience of the Unmade in question. Ashertmarn is mindless. Sja-anat could probably resist a bit, if she wanted to.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, Egomere said:

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

You know, it's funny you say that. I immediately thought about Ruin. Ruin has pulled almost the exact same trick, with Vin, the mist spirit and Spook. Among others. The unmade are certainly reminiscent of Hemalurgic constructs. Some spiked people can resist better than others. It might be like that with the Unmade.

Edited November 23, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[AubreyWrites she/her]

5 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

You know, it's funny you say that. I immediately thought about Ruin. Ruin has pulled almost the exact same trick, with Vin, the mist spirit and Spook. Among others. The unmade are certainly reminiscent of Hemalurgic constructs. Some spiked people can resist better than others. It might be like that with the Unmade.

Maybe he has move direct control over the unmade that are considered mindless. He seems to have a pretty direct connection to and control over the Thrill  considering the depth of his knowledge of its control/effect over Dalinar

[mariapapadia she/her]

holy rust!  you guys are crazy ! I browse this thread every morning on my way to work and I read some posts and make a mental note what to reply, then when I get home there are 3 more pages! When do you guys have time for this ?  it's so funny because it reminds me of when we had to discuss a book or analyze a character in highschool for literature class and I was dreading those classes, when we were nit picking every little detail trying to understand what the author meant. Who knew I would grow to enjoy it ?  

I... will probably try to come with something more meaningful to say, but it's hard to keep up with you! 

[AubreyWrites she/her]

19 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

holy rust!  you guys are crazy ! I browse this thread every morning on my way to work and I read some posts and make a mental note what to reply, then when I get home there are 3 more pages! When do you guys have time for this ?  it's so funny because it reminds me of when we had to discuss a book or analyze a character in highschool for literature class and I was dreading those classes, when we were nit picking every little detail trying to understand what the author meant. Who knew I would grow to enjoy it ?  

I... will probably try to come with something more meaningful to say, but it's hard to keep up with you! 

As much as I read I always hated those classes too both in highschool and college. I think it was both because I dislike being told what to read. They always wanted us to read literature - as if those were the only works that hold any truth or meaning. Nothing  against classics, I read and enjoy those too and often had already read the ones we were studying but they aren't a pedestal to be idolized and I have found just as much  truth and meaning in works that were far more fun to read. and my teachers were always trying to direct the discussion around to their interpretation instead of allowing free flow and assigning material we had to LOOK for meaning in istead of letting the debate arise organically. Bleugh. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[analyticaposteriori]

The biggest question mark here really is Brandon's intent.

On one hand the developments and things related in OB to this triangle thingy are so obviously hinting at more - foreshadowings, endless implications, poorly constructed and thus brittle justifications made by Shallan at the end together with her mental problems... it feels like a clear setup for this thing to continue (in possibly very interesting ways).

On the other hand there are BS' past writings and the weird finality that some of the resolutions in OB have - namely the wedding and the ending of the conversation between Shallan and Kaladin. I mean this is just brutal:

Quote

“Well, whatever you’re doing, it’s obviously working. If I could smother these emotions, I’d do so eagerly.”
She nodded, but fell silent, then resisted all further attempts to draw her into conversation.

Kal says the worst thing he can say in that moment and then it feels like the relationship just comes to a screeching halt and takes a suicide dive off a cliff. It's even worse when you consider it's pretty much the only personal conversation these two have in 1300 pages. Two main characters who spend 4/5 of a doorstopping book pretty much together have a single meaningful conversation? Just compare it to the chasm sequence... If BS wrote in big black letters on the back cover that this is the end of this arc it would probably be less obvious than what he actually did.

Edited November 23, 2017 by analyticaposteriori

[Mondaysjelly]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Holy rust. I love this thread.

Praise Domi!

[GoddessIMHO]

Looking back I think it wasn't so much that Adolin and Shallan were rushing to be married.  It was Navani pushing them.  Right before Jasnah has the confrontation with Amaram in the library Navani is trying to get Shallan to go ahead with the marriage to find stability in these troubled times.

I keep forgetting the timeline we are in puts all of the actions over days and not months.

[Harbour he/him]

47 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

On the other hand there are BS' past writings and the weird finality that some of the resolutions in OB have - namely the wedding and the ending of the conversation between Shallan and Kaladin. I mean this is just brutal:

That thing is the one that looks like an amateur attempt to sink the ship. I feel BS failed to show that Kaladin need to work on his social skills before dropping this scene. He is pretty good in them. The one scene with Lyn wasn't enough.

And that Kaladin's line would bother me at least until the next book. It felt so unnaturally awful. I mean, its like an opposite of the chasms scene. Was that the attempt to sink the ship? I doubt it. Was it a lame writing? Id say yes. BS could use the different form of line to create the rift between Shallan and Kaladin, not to make Kaladin sound like an insensible dummy he never was. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Harbour