[OB] Mayalaran

[Greywatch]

19 minutes ago, ericth said:

I wonder if Adolin will manage to reawaken Maya but, not being broken or the normal Edgedancer type, will be some sort of hybrid.

Adolin being a half-Radiant just to spite both factions would be a hilarious conclusion to all this! 

[Angsos]

I'd love to see an Adolinblade.

[Mahoka]

My bad on the dustbringer plate. But now all I want is to see Lift in a wee little shardplate. Lol.

[Kasimir]

1 hour ago, Mahoka said:

My bad on the dustbringer plate. But now all I want is to see Lift in a wee little shardplate. Lol.

What, to go with her Shardfork?

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, Mahoka said:

But now all I want is to see Lift in a wee little shardplate.

It looks like normal shardplate, except little with a couple of exceptions. There are no sabatons and the helm is designed to be open faced at all times to facilitate eating.

Adolin to my mind has demonstrated being broken because he has literally no impulse control. He jumps into every decision and only lasted as long without killing Sadeas because the half a dozen times he tried to publicly murder him in front of the assembled nobility of Alethkar is there were people there to restrain him. He's pretty close to one for one when he's encountered him alone - no impulse control.

The reason we don't see him having a lengthy internal monologue over this is because he has almost no POV scenes comparatively to our other radiants. He isn't main cast, he is supporting cast no matter how much he may be liked by the community.

And the "he has only killed one person" argument really doesn't hold up. That's exactly the same as saying "He is only a murderer, it's not like he's a mass murderer". Just because murder is a less serious crime than mass murder doesn't make it an insignificant act. If you're a mass murderer you get executed for it in a medieval world. If you're a murderer you get executed in a medieval world. If you're a noble you might get away with exile for life in either case. Still the most serious punishment that can be meted, and consistent with the level of seriousness "only one murder" is viewed.

A lot of people deserve to die in our world where murder is viewed with a similar level of seriousness. I think if the world were allowed to vote on it for example, Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un might find themselves overwhelmingly beneath a headsmans axe. The fact remains that it is not acceptable to murder them. Murder is not okay. Not having the impulse control to not murder someone no matter how reprehensible they might be is a clear indication that psychologically something is very wrong with that person.

Edited November 21, 2017 by aemetha

[Dahak]

On 19/11/2017 at 5:30 PM, SLNC said:

You can hardly compare that to failing to protect your little brother in the army, repeatedly failing to protect slaves while you're on the run etc. Or whatever Shallan has lived through in her childhood before she had her memory lapse.

Aside from this Sadeas thing, which didn't even have consequences for him, his life is peachy.

Those merely place an upper bound. We don't actually know what is necessary except that Shallan exceeds it.

Based on the other systems we know have this requirement (Allomancy, Feruchemy) Adolin probably experienced sufficient stress when his Rhyshandium died. And since bonding those are spren bonds that suggests he was already sufficiently broken before that.

[Phalanx]

9 hours ago, gbazz4 said:

I just got done with the book this morning. When i saw this thread and what was being said i immediately thought of that moment. In the middle of crashing through buildings fighting a thunderclast he stops to grab a little boy and save him. Maybe it is just wishful thinking because i am in the camp that wants him to revive his blade, but I thought that scene fit in with the Edgedancer ideal of in remembering those that have been forgotten. The little boy was all alone because nobody remembered him and yet Adolin did.

What "good guy" in this series wouldn't do that? How many main characters have you read in *any* book that would run away from a dying *child*? (Extreme anti-heroes aside.) Heck, even a "hardened badass" like, say, the Punisher or Venom would be written to have a moment like this to engender audience sympathy. They'd just agonize over it on-screen for a little bit longer.

 

7 hours ago, gbazz4 said:

Regarding Jasnah i feel like there was some mention in Oathbringer of her being young and troubled as a child. I can't remember where i saw it but i thought there was a mention of her being locked away because of her trouble. Does anyone else remember reading something like this (Not sure if it was in a Dalinar, Jasnah, or Navani POV, but i think i remember something like this)? Maybe that is a hint that she has something in her past that broker her when she was younger. Mabye she learned to deal with whatever broke her a long time ago while the main characters we are seeing now are dealing with their brokenness because they are newer to radianthood than Jasnah is.

She "went insane" once as a kid. She mentions it herself in a POV chapter (she "lost control once") then the adults in a Dalinar flashback mention it (she's "doing better"). You're probably right that this has been put in as a way to explain her bond's timeline.

 

-----------

My own thoughts on Maya: LOVED her becoming a character, I'm a sucker for this kind of tragic heroine. Would love for her to be more fleshed out and I'm open to multiple ways of her getting revived. Although I do think that her eyes should stay blind, or some other kind of imperfection. I feel that if she just gets straight up "reborn" shiny and new that it would cheapen the emotional impact of the recreance and what we know about the rest of the shardblades/plate. It reminds me of when they started healing "Stilling" in Wheel of Time. What used to be a really big deal and a huge danger in the series became just kind of another thing to be fixed (assuming you got the right gender to fix you).

She's a very tragic character, and I want her to stay that way. Bring on the feels.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Phalanx

[Leyrann]

8 hours ago, mosaab said:

Adolin becoming an Edgedancer has nothing to do with growth, and everything to do with this fandom thinking that if adolin becomes a radiant he is going to be more of a main character. 

And even if he is an edgedancer, what do you all think is going to happen? That he will have long stretches of chapters where he bonds,banter & discuss the nature of oath with his spren? That he will have training montages? That he will have epic saving the day moments?

It won't happen. He will always be secondary to lift.

And enough with self projecting into adolin about how he resent his father, he doesn't. 

Or how hard his life was, he  straight up admits to himself that his life has always been easy because he is the son of the black Thorne. 

That is just utterly ridiculous. We're discussing the option of him becoming a Radiant here, not wheter or not we like it. Only at the start of the thread there was a bit of talk about that, after that everything has been about the likelyhood instead.

[kari-no-sugata]

Something that I think is relevant: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e2963

Quote

B-more_freshout

I think [Brandon] would benefit a lot from finding some kind of way in-universe to convey when we can be certain that the character is dead. Something like what we see of Vin and Elend in Secret History after they die. I think that he was trying to prove how definite their death was.. I don't know how he could realistically or smoothly accomplish this, but I think that until we see some proof beyond what is normally expected to see for a death, we can't be 100% sure that anyone is dead.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I've been thinking about this. Spoilers below.

The issue is, resurrection is a major theme of the cosmere. The very first line of the first chapter of the first cosmere book starts with someone dying. The story is about his return to life.

The death of Adonalsium, and the questions surrounding the persistence of his power, is THE single pervasive theme of the works. And so, I've returned to this theme multiple times--from Sazed's more metaphorical rebirth in Mistborn Three to Syl's more literal one in Words of Radiance.

At the same time, the more this theme continues, the more it undermines the reader's ability to believe someone is really dead--and therefore their tension at worrying over the safety of characters. So we need a better "Dead is dead" indication, otherwise every death will turn into Sirius Black, with readers being skeptical for years to come.

So, let's just say it's something I'm aware of. Josh, of the 17th Shard, was the first one to raise the issue with me years ago. We need a balance between narrative drama and cosmere themes of rebirth.

We've had Syl come back from being sort-of dead, we had Pattern coming back from even more sort-of dead, so Maya coming back from really sort-of dead would be "more of the same" and shouldn't be a surprise and as noted in the quote above, it does fit in with general themes in the Cosmere. There might well be some surprises in the details though.

[Strabe]

Quote

He let Dalinar get surrounded, but he didn;t hold the knife himself. He's a scheming oily, conniving bastard, but "murder" has a specific definition. 

He premeditated a way to betray the entire Kholin army to their death, including Dalinar. There is no need for direct violence for murder - 

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought.

Notice there is no requirement for direct violence. If you kill your spouse by cutting the brake lines, you have committed murder just as surely as with a gun.

Intent and premeditation are the key differences between murder and homicide, especially when there is provocation. Adolin certainly did not intend to kill Sadeas that day, he was provoked into it by Sadeas making a direct threat to his family again.

Quote

“Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals, son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve been pointed that way since Gavilar died.” “It doesn’t have to be that way.” “It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.”

 

 

 

[Aminar]

13 minutes ago, Strabe said:

He premeditated a way to betray the entire Kholin army to their death, including Dalinar. There is no need for direct violence for murder - 

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought.

Notice there is no requirement for direct violence. If you kill your spouse by cutting the brake lines, you have committed murder just as surely as with a gun.

Intent and premeditation are the key differences between murder and homicide, especially when there is provocation. Adolin certainly did not intend to kill Sadeas that day, he was provoked into it by Sadeas making a direct threat to his family again.

 

 

 

Also note the "without justification" part. He had justification. His family was threatened. His men killed. His friends hurt. His king undermined. That's a lot of reason. 

Killing is wrong. But saving lives is right. And where they overlap is messy. Look at Dalinar's question to Taravangian. Look at Kaladin and Syl's arguments about the Parsh. This is a question the story really looks at. When is killing right? When it saves enough lives? When its in defense of yourself or your family? When someone breaks the law? The series makes one thing very clear though. There is a point where killing can be right. 

I'll leave it at I'm pretty nonviolent. I teach anger management classes and work with criminal kids for a living.  If someone had tried to kill me and my dad, then made it clear they'd try to kill my dad again, and I couldn't manage a legal option I'd be right there with Adolin. 

That doesn't preclude regretting the need for the action. Or that you did it. But it would always be what I'd do. 

[Fulminato]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Something that I think is relevant: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e2963

We've had Syl come back from being sort-of dead, we had Pattern coming back from even more sort-of dead, so Maya coming back from really sort-of dead would be "more of the same" and shouldn't be a surprise and as noted in the quote above, it does fit in with general themes in the Cosmere. There might well be some surprises in the details though.

pattern wasn't never near of dead. his bond with shallan was strained to the point of dissolve in nothingess, but shallan don't had broke the oath, only 'forget' the all.

Kaladin near let the king been murdered, but in the end change his mind, syl was dead? sort of, the stormfather spoke in this sense, but we know isn't the best judge for this.

the adolin's blade spren is dead, truly dead, for over two thousands years, adolin isn't the former knight of mayalaran, patter tell to shallan of the cryptics fallen try to restore the ancient spren lost in the recreance. if adolin restore his blade [i had this feeling from the time adolin lock himself in the prison after the 4v1(+1+1) duel.] will be the first time ever such action will happen.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Fulminato

[aemetha]

3 hours ago, Aminar said:

I teach anger management classes and work with criminal kids for a living.  If someone had tried to kill me and my dad, then made it clear they'd try to kill my dad again, and I couldn't manage a legal option I'd be right there with Adolin. 

Well, an interesting distinction here is that your decision is a reasoned one. I would (and have) argue the issue with Adolin, and specifically with regard to him being broken is that he doesn't seem capable of making a reasoned decision about this, or indeed many other decisions. He just does it and has to deal with the consequences later. A major pattern of behaviour is Adolin making impetuous statements or attempting actions and Dalinar having to restrain him. He comes across as heroic, because he does seem to have a good moral compass, but moral compass aside, he is certainly limited if he is not able to restrain himself from taking action long enough to reason if it is the best course of action.

He killed Sadeas out of impulse, which is largely because he hated him. He didn't think about all the terrible things Sadeas had done, or how the world is better off without Sadeas. He acted out of hate and anger, and because he seems to not have the capability of restraining himself in certain circumstances. Going back and assigning justifications to that act in the moment it took place is revisionism. I won't argue that Sadeas didn't deserve to die, I will argue that Adolin did not have the right morally or legally to kill him though for the reason he did. It was murder, not an execution.

[Aminar]

20 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Well, an interesting distinction here is that your decision is a reasoned one. I would (and have) argue the issue with Adolin, and specifically with regard to him being broken is that he doesn't seem capable of making a reasoned decision about this, or indeed many other decisions. He just does it and has to deal with the consequences later. A major pattern of behaviour is Adolin making impetuous statements or attempting actions and Dalinar having to restrain him. He comes across as heroic, because he does seem to have a good moral compass, but moral compass aside, he is certainly limited if he is not able to restrain himself from taking action long enough to reason if it is the best course of action.

He killed Sadeas out of impulse, which is largely because he hated him. He didn't think about all the terrible things Sadeas had done, or how the world is better off without Sadeas. He acted out of hate and anger, and because he seems to not have the capability of restraining himself in certain circumstances. Going back and assigning justifications to that act in the moment it took place is revisionism. I won't argue that Sadeas didn't deserve to die, I will argue that Adolin did not have the right morally or legally to kill him though for the reason he did. It was murder, not an execution.

The scene can be read that way. But putting that much mental processing into a scene after the major conflict would ruin it. 

Adolin hates Sadeas because Sadeas has done the things I mentioned. Got people Adolin cares about killed.  They're part of his judgement of the situation. Then Sadeas says he'll do it again. If you hate someone for things they've done and they say they're doing it again there isn't much thought involved with the decision. And what there is... Putting it on the page would be bad writing. As the audience we don't need it. We know what's happened. 

 

[gbazz4]

11 hours ago, Phalanx said:

What "good guy" in this series wouldn't do that? How many main characters have you read in *any* book that would run away from a dying *child*? (Extreme anti-heroes aside.) Heck, even a "hardened badass" like, say, the Punisher or Venom would be written to have a moment like this to engender audience sympathy. They'd just agonize over it on-screen for a little bit longer.

 

To me this is not as clear cut as it may seem. I don't have the book in front of me but from what i remember of the scene i believe Adolin heard the boy crying while he was running through the building. He had actually gone out the other side of the building already when it registered he had heard a boy crying and he turned around and went back in then flipped a table over and found the boy, then grabbed him and ran out where he shoved him at a soldier. In the heat of the moment, when he is in the middle of fighting a thunderclast and trying to take it down so they could open the Oathgate to let more soldiers in from Urithiru that is the priority. Stopping to grab the boy is something i don't think all of the characters would have done.

I could make an argument Szeth wouldn't have done it because if you look at his scene where he is chasing the Fused to get the gemstone back he isn't stopping to help people (granted by killing enemy troops he is tangentially helping people) he is focused on his mission. Maybe folks would disagree, but to me Jasnah is another character that would not have stopped to help the boy. I think she would look at the situation rationally and focus on defeating the thunderclast and the importance of that in the grand scheme of things during the battle versus stopping to save one child (i don't think she would be heartless and want the child to die or get hurt, i think she would just prioritize taking down the thunderclast over saving the child). But that is just my thought.  

[bkitchener]

One thing no one has mentioned yet is Adolin's tendency to TALK to Maya before duels.  I wouldn't be surprised if he made some sort of "oath" at some point on accident, As the wording of oaths can change it seems obvious that intent is the important part.   

[Greywatch]

I'd definitely like to take a close reading to find examples of Adolin acting in accordance with the Edgedancer oaths. Even if he didn't say the words, spren seem to attracted to likely partners before the first oath even needs to be said. 

[Mahoka]

6 minutes ago, bkitchener said:

One thing no one has mentioned yet is Adolin's tendency to TALK to Maya before duels.  I wouldn't be surprised if he made some sort of "oath" at some point on accident, As the wording of oaths can change it seems obvious that intent is the important part.   

I don't think there was an accidental oath, but I do agree with the importance of him talking to Maya. Specifically,  thinking of her as a being, not a tool. This heightened when he saw her true form in Shadesmar.

Spren are cognitive beings, and it's on record that the way humans view them affects them. (Remember the ardent interlude's flamespren experiment? And that old Dalinar saw flamespren fighting with shardblades? Or the Stormfather being stormlike due to people seeing him as such for so long?)

Then, Adolin's acceptance of his weakness and determination to continue makes him a Nahel candidate, as modeled several times earlier in the book. Check Skar, Lyn, Rock's initial stormlight intake, for example.

He is gonna have to get rid of that pommel gem though. I'm sure of it.

[Aminar]

8 hours ago, Mahoka said:

I don't think there was an accidental oath, but I do agree with the importance of him talking to Maya. Specifically,  thinking of her as a being, not a tool. This heightened when he saw her true form in Shadesmar.

Spren are cognitive beings, and it's on record that the way humans view them affects them. (Remember the ardent interlude's flamespren experiment? And that old Dalinar saw flamespren fighting with shardblades? Or the Stormfather being stormlike due to people seeing him as such for so long?)

Then, Adolin's acceptance of his weakness and determination to continue makes him a Nahel candidate, as modeled several times earlier in the book. Check Skar, Lyn, Rock's initial stormlight intake, for example.

He is gonna have to get rid of that pommel gem though. I'm sure of it.

You reminded me of something. The gems are what allow the spren to transition from realm to realm. Before that they just kind of hung out on Roshar. This would suggest that the gems are an important part of their suffering. They likely wouldn't  be in a state of half life without the bond the gems facilitate. So they wouldn't be doing the screaming suffering thing. (Which strengthens my scratches at the eyes are caused by the gem theory.)

[Strabe]

Quote

They likely wouldn't  be in a state of half life without the bond the gems facilitate.

Except that even without the gem, they are still present in the Physical realm. The gem simply allows the bonder to summon and dismiss the Blade in a manner similar to the Knights Radiant.

Crushing the gem, as Adolin does after winning another Shardblade in a duel, terminates the weak bond.

[Aminar]

11 minutes ago, Strabe said:

Except that even without the gem, they are still present in the Physical realm. The gem simply allows the bonder to summon and dismiss the Blade in a manner similar to the Knights Radiant.

Crushing the gem, as Adolin does after winning another Shardblade in a duel, terminates the weak bond.

But keeping a corpse in the physical realm doesn't make it alive. The transition between realms has been stated as forcing them back alive. 

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Aminar said:

But keeping a corpse in the physical realm doesn't make it alive. The transition between realms has been stated as forcing them back alive. 

Without the gemstone they are permanently in the physical realm as a blade. The deadeyes don't appear to be screaming in Shadesmar, so if anything, the bond is providing succor as it allows them to be dismissed back to the Cognitive Realm. 

[Aminar]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Without the gemstone they are permanently in the physical realm as a blade. The deadeyes don't appear to be screaming in Shadesmar, so if anything, the bond is providing succor as it allows them to be dismissed back to the Cognitive Realm. 

That's not how its described in Words of Radiance. Not at all. 

[Strabe]

10 minutes ago, Aminar said:

That's not how its described in Words of Radiance. Not at all. 

I don't remember WoR addressing this in particular. Can you help me out with a chapter of quote?

[Aminar]

8 minutes ago, Strabe said:

I don't remember WoR addressing this in particular. Can you help me out with a chapter of quote?

Chapter 87

"Dead," Syl Agreed. " Then they live again a little when someone summons them,  syncing a heartbeat to their essence."