[OB] Mayalaran

[Guest]

To play devil's advocate:

I don't think Adolin broken enough (doesn't have enough cracks in his Spiritweb to be filled by a spren) to form a Nahel bond.

[rjl]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

To play devil's advocate:

I don't think Adolin broken enough (doesn't have enough cracks in his Spiritweb to be filled by a spren) to form a Nahel bond.

The point on not being broken enough has come up a few times.

Has anyone thought much on what Adolin thought to himself early in the battle about how his identity had always been tied to his skill with a sword?
Also what if he learns what happened to his mother?

I think there are certainly cracks there, they may need to widen a bit more but he definitely seems to be on the path to me.

Edited November 19, 2017 by rjl

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, rjl said:

The point on not being broken enough has come up a few times.

Has anyone though much on what Adolin thought to himself early in the battle about how his identity had always been tied to his skill with a sword?
Also what if he learns what happened to his mother?

I think there are certainly cracks there, they may need to widen a bit more but he definitely seems to be on the path to me.

Also I don't think we've had a single PoV from him this book where he didn't think about having murdered Sadeas. That still stings in him.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Also I don't think we've had a single PoV from him this book where he didn't think about having murdered Sadeas. That still stings in him.

You can hardly compare that to failing to protect your little brother in the army, repeatedly failing to protect slaves while you're on the run etc. Or whatever Shallan has lived through in her childhood before she had her memory lapse.

Aside from this Sadeas thing, which didn't even have consequences for him, his life is peachy.

[Dryone_2]

I think Maya might already be alive:

1) when Adolin interrupts the summoning because he's hit by stones, "Maya brushes against his mind" 

2) Adolin lends Maya to Hrdalm for fighting the thunderclast. AFAIK that's only possible with dead blades when the owner intentionally breaks the bond. Adolin doesn't do that:

Quote

Go with him for now, Maya, Adolin thought. He almost wished she’d object, but the vague sensation he received was a resigned agreement. Hrdalm dropped his lance and took the Blade reverently.

 

[Guest]

They have undoubtedly built Connection during their time together, but I hardly would call her alive. Syl and Pattern are alive.

[Leyrann]

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You can hardly compare that to failing to protect your little brother in the army, repeatedly failing to protect slaves while you're on the run etc. Or whatever Shallan has lived through in her childhood before she had her memory lapse.

Aside from this Sadeas thing, which didn't even have consequences for him, his life is peachy.

I just mean that it's on his mind a lot, and he's had to keep it for himself for what, close to two months? Maybe even more than that? If you truly feel guilty about something, and you can't tell anyone, that can eat you up from the inside out. Not saying it happened - we haven't seen enough from him for that in my opinion - but I don't think you can discard it that easily.

[Wandering Investor]

17 minutes ago, Dryone_2 said:

2) Adolin lends Maya to Hrdalm for fighting the thunderclast. AFAIK that's only possible with dead blades when the owner intentionally breaks the bond. Adolin doesn't do that:

Shardblade users can mentally command their blades to stay when they let go. Then they can summon them back whenever they want. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

but I don't think you can discard it that easily.

Sure. A guilty conscience != being broken. And, to be fair, the only guilt he feels is that he isn't feeling guilty enough.

Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC

[Leyrann]

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Sure. A guilty conscience != being broken. And, to be fair, the only guilt he feels is that he isn't feeling guilty enough.

That's some nudging you're doing in the quoting.

13 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Not saying it happened - we haven't seen enough from him for that in my opinion - but I don't think you can discard it that easily.

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Leyrann

[Calderis he/him]

@SLNC I've never been a fan of the "not broken enough" argument.

Kaladin and Shallan are extreme examples. So is Dalinar. 

Adolin has easily been through as much as Renarin. Just because he puts on a happy face for the world doesn't make his life "peachy." 

He lost his mother. Thousands of men at the Tower. Watched his father descend into a drunken mess. He snapped and killed Sadeas, which while it hasn't had social consequences, has still had mental ones. 

If he's not broken enough, then neither is Lopen, Lopen seems happy too. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

33 minutes ago, Dryone_2 said:

I think Maya might already be alive:

1) when Adolin interrupts the summoning because he's hit by stones, "Maya brushes against his mind" 

2) Adolin lends Maya to Hrdalm for fighting the thunderclast. AFAIK that's only possible with dead blades when the owner intentionally breaks the bond. Adolin doesn't do that:

 

#2  The kings blades are lent out. And I think on the Battle on the Plains one of the generals sons was using his blade.

[Dryone_2]

17 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Shardblade users can mentally command their blades to stay when they let go. Then they can summon them back whenever they want. 

For a long fight against a thunderclast? 

IIRC that letting go is time limited and the bearer can extend that limit with training. Using a blade in a fight for life and death would be very foolhardy. 

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Dryone_2 said:

For a long fight against a thunderclast? 

IIRC that letting go is time limited and the bearer can extend that limit with training. Using a blade in a fight for life and death would be very foolhardy. 

Shardbearers regularly lend their blades to a "champion" if they are the strategic general type. One of the Highprinces does this in tWoK on the Shattered Plains. 

There's nothing stopping a person from lending out a dead blade other than their ability to give the mental command for it not to disappear. 

That said, Maya is being fixed. When Adolin lent her, he felt "grudging acceptance." she was summoned after just seven seconds instead of ten, and we have her name. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

then neither is Lopen, Lopen seems happy too. 

Shallan constantly seems happy to everyone too. Humans are great at creating facades.

Being broken does not mean being unhappy all the time. There are many ways of attaining brokenness. Adolin just doesn't seem like it to me. Maybe he will soon. I don't know. Maya is being healed though, I agree. If that will result in a Nahel bond with Adolin, we will see.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Shallan constantly seems happy to everyone too. Humans are great at creating facades.

That was actually kind of my point. I just didn't express it well enough. 

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Being broken does not mean being unhappy all the time. There are many ways of attaining brokenness. Adolin just doesn't seem like it to me. Maybe he will soon. I don't know. Maya is being healed though, I agree. If that will result in a Nahel bond with Adolin, we will see.

My issue is that when people say he "doesn't seem broken enough" they are just writing off everything we know about his life. If losing your mother as a teenager isn't enough... losing thousands of men you were responsible for, many of whom were friends you knew personally, and cared for as more than just that responsibility... If you snapped in a moment of anger and fear and killed someone... 

If those things aren't broken enough, than that means we're expecting all Radiants to be like Kal, Dalinar, and Shallan. If that's the case, I don't see how it was ever possible for the Radiants to have numbered in the thousands. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My issue is that when people say he "doesn't seem broken enough" they are just writing off everything we know about his life. If losing your mother as a teenager isn't enough... losing thousands of men you were responsible for, many of whom were friends you knew personally, and cared for as more than just that responsibility... If you snapped in a moment of anger and fear and killed someone... 

It is hard to judge, I agree.

We do agree, that there needs to be a broken enough Spiritweb for a spren to fill right? Then let us just wait until Maya is ready. Either a bond will occur or it won't.

[BarrileteCosmico]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but according to the coppermind the second ideal of the Edgedancers is "I will remember those who have been forgotten. ” It would make a lot of narrative sense for Maya to be revived after Adolin speaks those words since they seem particularly tailored to this situation.

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but according to the coppermind the second ideal of the Edgedancers is "I will remember those who have been forgotten. ” It would make a lot of narrative sense for Maya to be revived after Adolin speaks those words since they seem particularly tailored to this situation.

That's the oath that Lift spoke. And while I do agree that it fits Adolin well, until we see another Edgedancer speak the Oaths, we won't know how variable the Edgedancers are. I never expected the Skybreakers to be so individualized. 

[Void]

I think Sanderson is setting up Adolin breaking story arc. He needs to learn about his mother, he's showing signs of a lot of jealousy (He has able to handle it well so far but constantly bringing this up will affect him) and I'm sure his marriage with Shallan will have its own problems. I feel like all of this is set up will help revive Mayalaran. Everyone has different breaking points, so far in the story I believe we haven't seen Adolin truly broken. So far we've seen majority of the radiant cast broke to the point where they couldn't function.

Why do all radiants been to be broken? So Nahel bond could mend them? Connect the spirit webs? Or maybe radiants need to be broken and have enough will power to not give into those negative emotions , in return be strong enough to resist Odiums influence? Can Adolin resist it right now? I don't know, i'm not saying killing Sades was wrong but killing him with fluctuation of negative emotions strikes me as he isn't ready yet. But that's my opinion on it, I'm probably completely wrong anyway. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Void

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

2 hours ago, Dryone_2 said:

Adolin becoming edgedancer would also help with all those incapacitating wounds he's prone to attract. Once he has regrowth his little brother doesn't have to follow him around all the time in order to heal him. 

If tou think about it his wounds are not actually that terrible considering the fights he gets himself into. Its just a reminder of how normal people, even the most skilled, would fare on those kind of fights. But you are right Adolin at this stage would gain a huge boost from the ability to draw stormlight just for the healing.

2 hours ago, Ytsken said:

Yes, Adolin is definitely Edgedancer material.

Apart from this finale... haven't you noticed that both Adolin and Lift have the exact same effect on people? Yes, they're awesome (in very different ways) but people keep reflecting on them being weird and dismissing them as (in Nale's words) "... always so concerned with small-minded things... ". 

The funny thing is, that very small-mindedness may be just why a cultivationspren could be resurrected.

I see Adolin and Lift as similar for another reason. They both tend to seem like glue for groups of people, bringing in an unexpected perspective and generally soothing people when they need it, Lift with Nale, beggars, even Dalinar and Adolin with Kaladin, sometimes Shallan when she was on the verge of collapsing, Bridge 4, Dalinar too etc. 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

To play devil's advocate:

I don't think Adolin broken enough (doesn't have enough cracks in his Spiritweb to be filled by a spren) to form a Nahel bond.

Thats true, but at this point it isn't because he hasn't been through enough. His father was a monster most of his life, he barely saw his little brother as his father couldn't bear to see him, he was told his mother was assasinated, his father basically hated him for a few years, his uncle was assasinated, he was basically left in command of the Kholin armies since age 17 (max 19, we don't know how long after the boon Dalinar fought listeners till he got tired and focused on the way of kings), his father then set him up for impossible ideals of perfection, he watched 6000 of his men die due to a betrayal he saw coming but his father ignored his warnings. I'll stop there as the WoK and WoR things he does have been mentioned above.

Its simply that he is a very resilient person, most other people in his situation would be very, very broken.

Edited November 19, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Dryone_2]

25 minutes ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but according to the coppermind the second ideal of the Edgedancers is "I will remember those who have been forgotten. ” It would make a lot of narrative sense for Maya to be revived after Adolin speaks those words since they seem particularly tailored to this situation.

That are my thoughts, too. The 2nd ideal could be anything along the lines "I'll care for those who were left behind." 

Fits the scene where Adolin saves that boy and also helping Maya - and all other Deadeyes. I can imagine Adolin and his family starting a major Shard revival program. Didn't Dalinar consider confiscating all shards and letting him/the king about their use? 

[aemetha he/him]

I don't know that Adolin is particularly resilient. I think he has impulse control issues. Aside from the Sadeas incident (which really was the first time he was provoked without someone there to hold him back) he on a number of occasions has leaped before he looked. It's not something that is as obviously crippling as for example Shallans repression or Kaladin's despondency during his SAD occurrences, but it is impairing and not particularly uncommon in someone with a traumatic past. What we see as heroism might simply be how he is broken.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Thats true, but at this point it isn't because he hasn't been through enough. His father was a monster most of his life, he barely saw his little brother as his father couldn't bear to see him, he was told his mother was assasinated, his father basically hated him for a few years, his uncle was assasinated, he was basically left in command of the Kholin armies since age 17 (max 19, we don't know how long after the boon Dalinar fought listeners till he got tired and focused on the way of kings), his father then set him up for impossible ideals of perfection, he watched 6000 of his men die due to a betrayal he saw coming but his father ignored his warnings. I'll stop there as the WoK and WoR things he does have been mentioned above.

sigh

Look. I'm not trying to hate on Adolin or try to diminish his hardships in life, but I just don't see them resulting in a broken enough Spiritweb. With the Radiants we know, there is one thing in common: personal failure and/or severe emotional trauma. Yes, all of that stuff happened in Adolin's life, but we don't know how much it really affected him. We can just assume. I can see him being Edgedancer material - mentalitywise -, but I'm not sure - taking information from his PoVs - that every hardship in his life has affected him enough to truly make him broken.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

sigh

Look. I'm not trying to hate on Adolin or try to diminish his hardships in life, but I just don't see them resulting in a broken enough Spiritweb. With the Radiants we know, there is one thing in common: personal failure and/or severe emotional trauma. Yes, all of that stuff happened in Adolin's life, but we don't know how much it really affected him. We can just assume. I can see him being Edgedancer material - mentalitywise -, but I'm not sure - taking information from his PoVs - that every hardship in his life has affected him enough to truly make him broken.

I agree with you he is not broken enough. But I was refuting your statement that his life had been peachy.