Guest Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 21 minutes ago, IronBars said: My point with these orders was not to show how he fits each one, but to show how he has traits from each but doesn't embody any order that we have seen. Brandon writes a very narrow view of honour in the SA, i say this to you.saying how Adolin killing Sadeas wouldn't of been approved of by honourspren, because in reality Adolin/Dalinar should be honour bound to find justice for there men they lost over Sadeas. Same with kaladin wanting to eliminate amaram for killing his friends, leaving the person responcible for killing your friends walk around unpunished is not honourable. As for the skybreakers i think they used follow justice, not the laws of man, so while the current skybreakers wouldnt accept him now the old ones might, because justice and the law are not really the same thing, when Sadeas was killed it was justice. About the stonewards/dustbringers we don't know enough, given we have Lift and her oaths to judge edgedancers on i cant see how Adolin fits them, not saying Lift is the Atypical edgedancers but what her oaths are Adolin doesn't embody. Brandon writes a the version of honor which is accepted by the Windrunners and their spren: to state other visions exist and, as such, Adolin could fit is just not working with the narrative. Dalinar/Adolin did try to find justice for their men in a honorable way, but it failed, hence Adolin took the dishonorable path of killing Sadeas. There is no way to interpret Adolin's actions as honorable here: he jumped on a man unharmed and he murdered him. It does not matter if he feels the man had it coming, it still wasn't an honorable way to kill. Mind, killing very rarely is honorable, but the way Adolin chose most definitely wasn't in any definition of the term. The story also highlights Kaladin cannot kill Amaram to seek revenge even if he manages to convince himself it is somehow honorable. There is no honor in killing, the only acceptable killing is self-defense, such is Kaladin's plight and such is why Adolin would have never been a Windrunner. The Skybreakers are the one order which did not disband: they have remained intact since the Recreance. To state the Skybreakers we have seen must not be "the real ones" because you personally feel "justice" should matter more than the "law" is also contradicting what the narrative has told us. The Skybreakers are about the law, not just per the narrative, but per the author himself. They seek to obey law: justice is not what matters the most, what matters the most are the laws and laws can be unfair and unjust. Adolin never had any quality which would made him a suitable Skybreaker: he never seek obedience to laws above all else. I personally find Adolin fits the Edgedancer oaths to the bone. He has been remembering "forgotten" people throughout all three books, he has taken time to listen to everyone and he has shown to have the same helpful personality as Lift. Arguably, one of OB's weakness is how Brandon completely failed to convince the readers who weren't already convinced this order was a good choice.
IronBars he/him Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, maxal said: Brandon writes a the version of honor which is accepted by the Windrunners and their spren: to state other visions exist and, as such, Adolin could fit is just not working with the narrative. Dalinar/Adolin did try to find justice for their men in a honorable way, but it failed, hence Adolin took the dishonorable path of killing Sadeas. There is no way to interpret Adolin's actions as honorable here: he jumped on a man unharmed and he murdered him. It does not matter if he feels the man had it coming, it still wasn't an honorable way to kill. Mind, killing very rarely is honorable, but the way Adolin chose most definitely wasn't in any definition of the term. The story also highlights Kaladin cannot kill Amaram to seek revenge even if he manages to convince himself it is somehow honorable. There is no honor in killing, the only acceptable killing is self-defense, such is Kaladin's plight and such is why Adolin would have never been a Windrunner. Honour is honour, every facet of honour should be included not one narrow view of honour in my opinion, i understand it isn't but honour is not one simple thing like depicted in SA. There is honour in killing, as long as its for the right reasons. You say kaladins is acceptable cos he kills to protect, which is wrong as well going by the SA version of honour because he protects one side over the other, the way honour is wrote in SA kaladin shouldnt of been allowed do even that. 47 minutes ago, maxal said: The Skybreakers are the one order which did not disband: they have remained intact since the Recreance. To state the Skybreakers we have seen must not be "the real ones" because you personally feel "justice" should matter more than the "law" is also contradicting what the narrative has told us. The Skybreakers are about the law, not just per the narrative, but per the author himself. They seek to obey law: justice is not what matters the most, what matters the most are the laws and laws can be unfair and unjust. Adolin never had any quality which would made him a suitable Skybreaker: he never seek obedience to laws above all else.  Yes they didnt disband, but they follow Nale, most have sworn there third ideal to him, and nale isn't acting how he should, he is a distortion of his true self, therefore you can say that they aren't what the skybreakers should be........thus its not a stretch to say the skybreakers perhaps once valued justice over the laws of man, because justice is justice whereas the laws of man are falible. 47 minutes ago, maxal said: I personally find Adolin fits the Edgedancer oaths to the bone. He has been remembering "forgotten" people throughout all three books, he has taken time to listen to everyone and he has shown to have the same helpful personality as Lift. Arguably, one of OB's weakness is how Brandon completely failed to convince the readers who weren't already convinced this order was a good choice. Can you elaborate on this ? Because i can't recall him "remembering" anyone really, or "listening to everyone" il like to know where you find the belief edgedancers fit him to the bone comes from. Edited March 18, 2018 by IronBars
Guest Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 39 minutes ago, IronBars said: Honour is honour, every facet of honour should be included not one narrow view of honour in my opinion, i understand it isn't but honour is not one simple thing like depicted in SA. There is honour in killing, as long as its for the right reasons. You say kaladins is acceptable cos he kills to protect, which is wrong as well going by the SA version of honour because he protects one side over the other, the way honour is wrote in SA kaladin shouldnt of been allowed do even that. There is no honor in attacking a man from behind, even if he had it coming, even if the reasons are "right". Killing doesn't have to be dishonorable, but how Adolin decided to kill Sadeas most definitely wasn't honorable. Had he kill him through other means, things might have been interpret it differently. Kaladin is allowed to kill those who attacks the one he has sworn to protect. It is not up to him to decide which side is right or wrong, as long as he follows the word he has given. Kaladin ends up in a bad stop because he decides he should protect everyone at the same time. Had he not try to protect the guards and the Parshendis and the King, he would have avoided the circumstances which caused him to freeze. 43 minutes ago, IronBars said: Yes they didnt disband, but they follow Nale, most have sworn there third ideal to him, and nale isn't acting how he should, he is a distortion of his true self, therefore you can say that they aren't what the skybreakers should be........thus its not a stretch to say the skybreakers perhaps once valued justice over the laws of man, because justice is justice whereas the laws of man are falible. The Skybreakers first ideal is about following the law. All of their oaths are about following laws and laws are not justice. Someone seeking justice above laws would try to change unfair laws, but the Skybreakers aren't about justice. Szeth's entire problems stem from the fact he wants to blindly follow a superior law. He lacks the mental capacities to judge whether or not a law is worth following and obeying, so he wants to commit to one he can trust which is why he swears to Dalinar. If Skybreakers cannot be for justice above laws as this would mean their set of oaths would be completely different then the ones they actually have. As for them being fallible, all orders have their weakness. The Skybreakers weaknesses is their blind obedience to laws make them prone to commit to atrocities in the name of law. 50 minutes ago, IronBars said: Can you elaborate on this ? Because i can't recall him "remembering" anyone really, or "listening to everyone" il like to know where you find the belief edgedancers fit him to the bone comes from. He saves the prostitute despite him being a Prince and her the lowest of the lowest. He treats her like a human being as opposed to an animal and he listens to her complains. He refuses to forget about the men he lost at the Tower, he remembers their name when everyone is willing to forget the event. He remembers the mother it is more convenient for everyone to forget ever existed. He honors her Blade by remembering its memory, who she was and what she once was. He refuses to ignore Kaladin being locked into prison, to forget about his actions and takes a stance against the king's orders to support him. He listens to Kaladin, really listens to him and, still to this day, is the only individual to take the time to hear his tale and to spontaneously believe him as opposed of accusing of fabricating lies. He doesn't forget about the people who helped him in Kholinar, urging them to find an escape. He listens to Shallan plights without saying a word, never asking for to be listened to in return. He saves the boy during the thunderclast fight, to the risk of his own life. Adolin's actions are thus a long list of him either remembering people others are keen to ignore/forget, listen to people others aren't listening to. Of course, he is not Edgedancer yet, but does he have the potential to follow the same oaths Lift said? I do think the narrative is telling us yes.
IronBars he/him Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, maxal said: .Kaladin is allowed to kill those who attacks the one he has sworn to protect. It is not up to him to decide which side is right or wrong, as long as he follows the word he has given. Kaladin ends up in a bad stop because he decides he should protect everyone at the same time. Had he not try to protect the guards and the Parshendis and the King, he would have avoided the circumstances which caused him to freeze. When kaladin saves Dalinar on the tower, he hadn't sworn to protect him, so by the version of honour we see in SA he shouldnt of been able kill the parshendi then. He doesnt decide he should protect everyone, he ends up unable to act because he sees friends on both sides, that is not the same. Your point on the skybreakers is good so i wll drop that one. 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He saves the prostitute despite him being a Prince and her the lowest of the lowest. He treats her like a human being as opposed to an animal and he listens to her complains. I don't see this as remembering someone who was forgotten, it was just an honourable act. 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He refuses to forget about the men he lost at the Tower, he remembers their name when everyone is willing to forget the event. This applies to most survivors, its constantly remarked on by kaladin as well so i don't think this falls under "i will remember those who were forgotten" either 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He remembers the mother it is more convenient for everyone to forget ever existed. I think this is just natural, a son remembering a mother. 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He refuses to ignore Kaladin being locked into prison, to forget about his actions and takes a stance against the king's orders to support him. He listens to Kaladin, really listens to him and, still to this day, is the only individual to take the time to hear his tale and to spontaneously believe him as opposed of accusing of fabricating lies. First one is honourable second one i guess fits, but kaladin wasnt ignored.... 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He doesn't forget about the people who helped him in Kholinar, urging them to find an escape. Again this seems just a natural thing anyone would do. 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He listens to Shallan plights without saying a word, never asking for to be listened to in return. Again this is natural and shallan wasnt forgotten/ignored 22 minutes ago, maxal said: He saves the boy during the thunderclast fight, to the risk of his own life. Again this is honourable, but doesnt showcase any ideals related to edgedancers in my opinion fits more with "protect those who cant protect themselves" 22 minutes ago, maxal said: Adolin's actions are thus a long list of him either remembering people others are keen to ignore/forget, listen to people others aren't listening to. Of course, he is not Edgedancer yet, but does he have the potential to follow the same oaths Lift said? I do think the narrative is telling us yes. I can't say i agree with this, the examples you gave imo don't fit the edgedancers ideals, just making different things hes done fit into those ideals. You might very well be right and he becomes an edgedancer, if that happens then the narrative foreshadowing this has been terribly weak though. Edited March 18, 2018 by IronBars 4
Calderis he/him Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) @IronBars I'm confused by your repeated use of "the way honor is portrayed in SA." Honor is not portrayed in only one way. All of the Oaths are open to interpretation. The different sequences of oaths are all variations of honor. The Windrunners follow the interpretation of honor that you seem to be describing, but the Skybreakers follow one as well. Honor, the Shard, is the embodiment of the concept of honor, segregated from morality, as no shards are good or evil. Honor, separate from morality, is essentially just maintaining your oaths and promises. The Skybreakers form of honor is one of strict lines and delineations. It may not be moral, but that is irrelevant, they keep to the letter of their oaths. This is why Nale was attracted to Szeth in the first place. The things he did were atrocious. He hated himself for it. He drove himself nearly mad. Yet he maintained the laws he had sworn to follow unerringly. By the Skybreakers definition of honor, Szeth is the most honorable man on Roshar. Edited March 18, 2018 by Calderis 3
IronBars he/him Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Calderis said: @IronBars I'm confused by your repeated use of "the way honor is portrayed in SA." Honor is not portrayed in only one way. All of the Oaths are open to interpretation. The different sequences of oaths are all variations of honor. The Windrunners follow the interpretation of honor that you seem to be describing, but the Skybreakers follow one as well. Honor, the Shard, is the embodiment of the concept of honor, segregated from morality, as no shards are good or evil. Honor, separate from morality, is essentially just maintaining your oaths and promises. The Skybreakers form of honor is one of strict lines and delineations. It may not be moral, but that is irrelevant, they keep to the letter of their oaths. This is why Nale was attracted to Szeth in the first place. The things he did were atrocious. He hated himself for it. He drove himself nearly mad. Yet he maintained the laws he had sworn to follow unerringly. By the Skybreakers definition of honor, Szeth is the most honorable man on Roshar. Honouring your oaths regardless of a moral filter or no moral filter is the same thing, so the skybreakers honour and windrunners honour are the same thing, thats besides the point though, What i was saying was kaladin should of been able kill amaram, because since he killed kaladins friends, honour would demand that kaladin seek vengence. (I am not on about the shard honour, im on about what honour actually is and the different variations of it) Protecting people is honourable Seeking vengence against someone who killed your friends is honourable. Killing someone to prevent mass murder is honourable. Killing someone to stop a cataclysmic event is honourable, but all we see from honourspren is the "protection" aspect. Thats what i mean by there being a narrow view. Edited March 18, 2018 by IronBars
Guest Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, IronBars said: When kaladin saves Dalinar on the tower, he hadn't sworn to protect him, so by the version of honour we see in SA he shouldnt of been able kill the parshendi then. He doesnt decide he should protect everyone, he ends up unable to act because he sees friends on both sides, that is not the same. He still fought to defend the people he felt needed protection. His motto is rather simple, as long as he sees "us" and "them", he is able to fight "them", but when he realizes "them" could also become "us", he loses his mojo. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: I don't see this as remembering someone who was forgotten, it was just an honourable act. An act no one else saw fit to do but himself. He is a Prince, given how segregated Alehtkar is, rescuing a low born isn't seen as an act of honor, it isn't seen as an obligation, it most definitely isn't something most people, even the most honorable individuals, would do. It might not even have been something Dalinar would have done. Yet he does it. The reason it is significant is because it goes against everything we were told Alethkar stands for in terms of morality and order. Princes do not talk nor rescue prostitute. They do not mingle with the lowborn. They. Just. Don't. I also find it significant Kaladin, having had many bad experiences with ligtheyes finds it significant Adolin does save the prostitute. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: This applies to most survivors, its constantly remarked on by kaladin as well so i don't think this falls under "i will remember those who were forgotten" either Kaladin mentions the men Dalinar lost once, which is pretty much inline with his duties as a Windrunner, to muse on the ones he couldn't protect. Dalinar never mentions anyone dying, he isn't affected by the deaths, merely annoyed. It is Adolin who wants retribution for his men, Adolin who recites their names, in anger at having been powerless to stop the carnage. It is also Adolin who cared about the 50 men they fighting the chasmfiend. No one else but him have expressed similar level of care. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: I think this is just natural, a son remembering a mother. We do not see Renarin spend so much time thinking about his mother. It is Adolin who had the memento of her, who yearns for her to be back, who takes on to Navani babying him because it makes him feel as if "mother" was back. Evi is a sore subject: no one speaks of her because she died horribly. The handful who knows the truth are lip tied. Evi became a topic never to be addressed except by her son. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: First one is honourable second one i guess fits, but kaladin wasnt ignored.... He was ignored. Kaladin felt he was being ignored, forgotten. Adolin staying in prison for him was a turning point in Kaladin's character because, for the first time in his life, someone genuinely did something for him, someone believed him and someone refused to allow him to take the punishment for having done the right thing. So while not everyone living forgot about Kaladin, Bridge 4 sure didn't forget, Kaladin felt utterly alone in there. Left out. Abandoned. And it was Adolin who gave him back hope. It was an act of genuine kindness and open defiance no one else would have done. No one else did it and Dalinar certainly didn't approve of Adolin doing it. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: Again this seems just a natural thing anyone would do. And yet he is the only one, out of party of seven, who thought to do it. If it were so natural, then why didn't anyone else say anything? That's the catch, everyone always says "Anyone would have done it", but truth is Adolin is the only one who cares enough to do it. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: Again this is natural and shallan wasnt forgotten/ignored No one listened to her either. Ever. Adolin allowed her to speak her jest, to voice out the truths she wanted to voice out. He also listened to her speaking of her theories earlier in WoR even if they went against popular beliefs. Obviously, Shallan isn't a street urchin, but what is more admirable, a street urchin who listens to another street urchin or a Prince who manages to think of other people but himself and to actually listen to them as opposed to want them to listen to him? That's the catch too... Edgedancer are about helping other people and I haven't found one single evidence Adolin would fail at maintaining those oaths. 1 hour ago, IronBars said: Again this is honourable, but doesnt showcase any ideals related to edgedancers in my opinion fits more with "protect those who cant protect themselves" It is not something most people would have done. Adolin saw someone in need and he helped them. The Edgedancers are about being "Good Samaritans", helpers. Sure, helping and protecting can be similar, at times, just like Kaladin wanting to protect others sometimes seem more like "loving" than "protecting". Orders are not mutually exclusive, but by his behavior, Adolin has shown he had the capacity to grow into the right individual to fit within the order of the Edgedancer even if he hadn't have this growth yet. 3 minutes ago, IronBars said: Honouring your oaths regardless of a moral filter or no moral filter is the same thing, so the skybreakers honour and windrunners honour are the same thing, thats besides the point though, What i was saying was kaladin should of been able kill amaram, because since he killed kaladins friends, honour would demand that kaladin seek vengence. (I am not on about the shard honour, im on about what honour actually is and the different variations of it) Protecting people is honourable Seeking vengence against someone who killed your friends is honourable. Killing someone to prevent mass murder is honourable. Killing someone to stop a cataclysmic event is honourable, but all we see from honourspren is the "protection" aspect. Thats what i mean by there being a narrow view. Vengeance is never honorable. It is satiating a desire to fulfill a negative emotion: it isn't something Windrunners agree is honorable. The entire purpose of Moash are was to show what happens when someone gives way to vengeance and anger: he becomes over-ruled by them and turns into a villain, thinking everyone who slighted him deserved death. Had Kaladin kill Amaram, would his vengeance be over? Nope. He'd then proceed to kill the men who allowed Amaram to be in charge and so on. That's why vengeance is never honorable, it has no end, no justice to it, just self-serving satisfaction.    Edited March 18, 2018 by maxal
Calderis he/him Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 @IronBars ah, yes that makes sense. Each individual spren type is a narrow scope of what honor entails. I agree with that, thank you for clarifying.Â
IronBars he/him Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 @maxal we will just need to agree to disagree,Â
platy21 he/him Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 On 11/15/2017 at 4:45 PM, Marethyu316 said: Is it confirmed that Sazed wrote that letter? I thought it might have been, but is there a WoB or something obvious in the text that I should have noticed. I'm still not through the whole thread, but in case nobody has added this - the audiobook is read in Sazed's voice 3
thorongil he/him Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 This book is like red wine. During reading, it was the first Stormlight book that felt a bit tedious to me. It felt like stuff was happening all over again. Dalinar thinking he knows a lot, while in reality he knows nothing. Kaladin being depressed. Shallan being Shallan³. (The flashbacks and Szeth-parts were excellent from the get-to, though.) Then: the Sanderson-avalanche. Which did not feel like an avalanche to me while reading it. I had trouble grasping the significance of some of the events. (I might have to add that I am not among the more observant readers, especially when reading a book the first time around. I did, for example, not realize that Dalinar and Shallan had uttered oaths during Oathbringer, until I was made aware by various forum threads.) Suddenly, I'm finished with the book. It left me feeling ambivalent, as I did not know how to judge all of what I read. And I start exploring the forums a bit and start listening to Shardcast and Cosmere Conversations (huge props to both these podcasts, by the way). And the more I delve into the conversation surrounding the book, the more I feel like I am the one who has ascended and I can see the perpendicularity into the cosmere right in front of my eyes. Plus, some awareness-explosion. I read certain segments again and find myself aghast at how I could have failed to grasp the utter grandeur of what has been happening throughout this book. I find myself nearly weeping at Evi's death. I find myself brimming with excitement because I have realized what Dalinar has done during the confrontation with Odium. I find myself amazed at how intricately Cultivation has spun her webs and planted her seeds. So, in the end, I really admire what Sanderson has done with this book. What I also realized is that to get through this and stick with Sanderson's masterplan requires a huge amount of mutual trust between author and reader. This is not a book (or a series, for that matter) for everyone. But boy is it a book for me!  8
Yvainnie she/her Posted April 8, 2018 Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) Book is genius and perfect. I had a few problems with some characters but it has nothing to do with writing. It was just about me not liking people who were described so realistic. So Shallan part was interesting. Firstly I am amazed at how much accuretly Sanderson can desribe insane mind and development. It was very interestin to see how she was progressing deeper to spliting her mind but I kind of did not like her and Adolin but I like how she decided for herself even if it does not have to make sense to anyone else. Adolin was good and I hope he will bring Maya somehow back to be living spren. Kaladin was so much depressed but that was just his way. I do hope he will be better in next book and I was a little disappointed about him not saying 4th Ideal. And I so hope that he will end up having serious relationship with Syl! That would be awesome. And I was also diaspointed a little not to see any KR wearing true Plate. Humankind not being from Roshar was very good plot but I expected it but still awesome. And I also want to see what happens when someone will say 5th Ideal if 4th means that you get Plate. Dalinar and Odium were awesome. And: "I am unity." was my favorite part. Just perfect. I hope there will be more of that. I missed more Jasnah. I cried when Dalinar took that book and went to stand up to Odium. Edited April 19, 2018 by Yvainnie
supersmith Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018  I’m not going to lie, this is definitely my new favorite book. I would go into it more but every opinion I have has already been expressed Also I’ve reread this book 4 times since December. I’m not crazy I promise 1
Gray to he/him Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 I almost cried when Elhokar died. Not because I liked his character, but because it was so brutal. storm Moash 3
ljósmóður she/her Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 Finally got a break from life in general to read it. I definitely need to re-read it as, like all Sanderson's books, it sucked me in and I couldn't put it down so I read it quickly - knowing that I would probably miss some significant foreshadowing / Cosmere stuff (although that's what this forum is for, isn't it!? ) For me, I'm pretty sure its a book that I will love more when I re-read it. That's not to say that I didn't really enjoy it first time through but, having glanced through this thread, I don't seem unique in the things I found dissatisfying. However, firstly, the things I really liked about the book: I did love a LOT. The set pieces, as always. Those moments that make you air punch as you read - there were plenty of those. Kaladin returning home and Dalinor's awesome third oath bookended several others for me. Loved Lift and Szeth/Nightblood (especially when they were together at the end). Loved Lift with Dalinor too! And Taln - I'm really looking forward to seeing more of him in future books. I didn't mind the 'Avengers Assemble' feel to the final battle because I'd been looking forward to seeing all the main characters get their Radiant on together - and I wasn't disappointed at all by that. It was touch and go as to whether following so many characters would become unfathomable but I think, overall, the constant shifting of between muliple POV during the battle worked as it echoed the utter chaos being experienced by the characters. I didn't love the Shadesmar section but I didn't hate it either. I enjoyed it as a stand-alone piece of world building around the Cognitive Realm - and a chance to get some back story on Syl (and Maya, sort of) - but wasn't sure that it advanced the plot much? It felt like there needed to be some tension about whether Shallan, Kaladin and Adolin would make it to the final KR jamboree and they couldn't be left in Fused occupied Kholinar so popping them into Shadesmar was a handy thing to do for plot expediency. I wasn't especially bothered by the love triangle - I just sort of got on with the book, despite it rally! I've always thought that writing romantic entanglements is probably one of Brandon's weaker areas - I don't generally find the romances in any of his novels to be wholly convincing although I think SA has, overall, been more mature in its approach. I like the way he writes Dalinor and Navani, for example. I like Kaladin, I like Adolin, I blow hot and cold on Shallan as a character. I didn't like her in tWoK, she grew on me in WoR and I couldn't quite decide what I made of her (or her, or her) in OB - I suspect that's something I'll decide on re-reading but it meant that I wasn't especially invested in who she ended up with. Overall, I think the reason I would probably place WoR over OB in my current assessment, based on one reading, is that OB felt less cohesive as a reading experience. It did feel, at times, that the material lost crispness so that threads which should have had more prominence (Sadeas' murder, the Everstorm, more actual nitty-gritty about the Radiant orders) didn't get it - I'm sure they will in future books but I felt those things should have been in *this* book. Some of the material felt extraneous and I felt that some of the political machinations could have been edited to make space for things which were set up in WoR. However, I did enjoy reading it and will, I'm sure, enjoy re-reading it and spotting loads more stuff I missed on the first pass.
gandalfgreyheme Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 I picked up a new fantasy universe about a month back. So incredibly happy that it was stormlight archive. Tore through WoTK, WoR and OB and will now start the task of properly reading this again. But before I do, I just wanted to add my thoughts to the flow: The Yays!: Jasnah Kholin going on the OP rampage in Thyleneh The unexpectedly tight connection to Warbreaker DESTROY EVIL! Rock the archer - there will be a price to pay The deeply satisfying resolution of Dalinar's inner struggles Pai's rebellion Maya! The Nays: The redemption of Szeth was too easy I felt that the deep personal struggles of Shallan were boiled down to boy troubles. This could have been far more interesting Amaram was lost as a set-piece. He could have been Kaladin's big bad The questions: Honour's Perpendicularity lives, does that mean unity has a deeper meaning? Spoiler Specifically given the kind of role Sazed played in Mistborn Moash is going to be a very interesting character. I think he will turn eventually, he's far too self aware to not do so otherwise WTF is going on in Shinovar. I'd love to explore the place given the importance it has on the Human occupation of Roshar 3
Angsos Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 That's probably why we haven't seen Shinovar given that's where this, in every sense of the word, all started
Honor's Radiance Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 6:27 PM, platy21 said: I'm still not through the whole thread, but in case nobody has added this - the audiobook is read in Sazed's voice o.O The number of details Sanderson has orchestrated in these books blows my mind every time. On 3/29/2018 at 7:57 AM, thorongil said: I read certain segments again and find myself aghast at how I could have failed to grasp the utter grandeur of what has been happening throughout this book. I find myself nearly weeping at Evi's death. I find myself brimming with excitement because I have realized what Dalinar has done during the confrontation with Odium. I find myself amazed at how intricately Cultivation has spun her webs and planted her seeds. On 4/8/2018 at 11:00 AM, Yvainnie said: Dalinar and Odium were awesome. And: "I am unity." was my favorite part. Just perfect. I hope there will be more of that. ... I cried when Dalinar took that book and went to stand up to Odium. Me. Too. God, that whole Odium plotline was just...so many feels. I think I hyperventilated through the entire scene where he appears for the first time. It was such an eerie description to read because I tend to think of passion as one of my more prominent attributes, and so I found myself resonating uncomfortably deeply with one line he would say or one description, and then in a moment it would be twisted into something so incredibly manipulative. It was a strange sort of whiplash. He's a delightful character, and I'm fascinated by the different sides of himself he shows to Dalinar, Venli, and Taravangian. My skin crawls every time he speaks or appears, so he must be written well... On 5/22/2018 at 9:48 AM, gandalfgreyheme said: WTF is going on in Shinovar. I'd love to explore the place given the importance it has on the Human occupation of Roshar YES. Shinovar is such a mystery! I want to know how much they knew all along about the origin of humans and their relationships with Odium, Honor, and the singers. And I want to know what world the humans left destroyed--was it Braize itself? Or Yolen? Or something else? How many times has this happened before they reached Roshar? Plus, the parallel between the breaking of the Oathpact, the Recreance, and the Shattering of Adonalsium fascinates me. I want to know if the Shattering was for a similar genre of reason to the first two: the Heralds take a gamble that Taln will be able to hold and so vanish, the KR find out about the origins of humans and walk away from the wars--what about Adonalsium? What was happening with the humans, with Rayse perhaps, with whoever was opposing Adonalsium, that Shattering was the strategic decision that seems now to have been a tragic or at least unfortunate event? Other responses to the book: - Dalinar's confrontation with the Nightwatcher & Cultivation was perfect. - I've been waiting for mysterious Renarin to become interesting, and this was excellent. - I cried my eyes out during Dalinar's entire confrontation with Odium. I'm a little more Windrunner than Bondsmith, but ahhh that one got me on a deep, deep level. - I want to kill Moash myself. And I am so angry at how much of a doormat Taravangian lets himself be (to the authority of his own self) when he thinks he can get something out of it at the end (which never seems to succeed, and he never seems to notice). - Jezriennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn *insert numerous crying emojis* - I missed more Jasnah as well, but I'm thrilled they gave her the throne. - And spren in their own realm!!
Juanaton he/him Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 So I didn't catch this on my first time through, or even second, but for whatever reason, I just noticed something I find problematic and thought I'd come here to see if anybody can help reconcile this for me. During the destruction at the Rift, as Dalinar is headed for the secret chamber with his barrels of oil, he specifically complains about all the fighting and killing with nothing to feed the Thrill. Everything about the Thrill seems to me to indicate that it demands a struggle, danger, a serious threat, in order to be "satisfied" and make Dalinar feel "alive". Moments later he cuts the door from its hinges and, rather than seeking for a fight by searching the rooms inside, he rolls the burning barrels of oil in and just sits watching. If the results of this weren't so fundamental to the plot it wouldn't be a big problem, but they are. To set up the conflict Dalinar has had to deal with through the whole series, and will continue to deal with I expect, he had to diverge from the natural tendencies he has shown, has to fail to engage hand-to-hand, or even to seek to engage that way, and commit an atrocity because he didn't find out information that would have been obvious if he had followed through on the established aspects of his character. I don't want this to be what I think of this scene. I want it to be what it was to me the first few times, so someone, please, give me a good (meaning founded in the character he has been revealed to be leading up to this event) reason that Dalinar wouldn't have gone into that room and tried to kill whoever was in there with Oathbringer or his bare hands.
Calderis he/him Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) @Juanaton because from Dalinar's viewpoint, anyone hiding in that room, barred in, wouldn't have been a challenge. What he needed from the thrill was something that would push him, and risk him. Something to make him struggle. But a coward hiding away from the battle in a room only big enough for a few? He'd have walked in slaughtered them, and been left wanting. Better to just burn it out, move on and hopefully find someone who isn't cowering. Edited June 24, 2018 by Calderis
Juanaton he/him Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Calderis said: @Juanaton because from Dalinar's viewpoint, anyone hiding in that room, barred in wouldn't have been a challenge. What he needed from the thrill was something that would push him, and risk him. Something to make him struggle. But a coward hiding away from the battle in a room only big enough for a few? He'd have walked in slaughtered them, and been left wanting. Better to just burn it out, move on and hopefully find someone who isn't cowering. Thank you. That really does resolve my problem with the whole thing because I can think of plenty of references to how the slaughter had been unsatisfying because it was too easy. Edited June 24, 2018 by Juanaton
Lord Anomander Rake he/him Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 Hello everyone. I've been lurking on this forum for some time so I thought it was finally time to introduce myself by sharing my reaction to "Oathbringer" and asking some questions. I know this comes super late in relation to when the book came out (it's also been two months since I finished it), but here goes. General Thoughts - Observations: Structurally this is Brandon's best book imo. I was honestly surprised at how much was revealed so soon and that's a really good thing. That only means there's so much more to come. Perhaps I don't overanalyze clues on purpose in order to experience plot twists fully, but storms it wasn't obvious to me that humans are the Voidbringers. Holy hell. That "divide by zero" joke by Pattern really had me rolling. I'm assuming Hoid had put aluminum around the Soulcaster during the Kholinar siege in order to make it invisible to Odium's army? Any Diagram part is supremely interesting. Wait a second. Jezrien is DEAD? Just like that? Godammit Moash. You piece of trash. As the sole negative I'd say I wanted more chit-chat between the leads, but that's not easy to cram in. Questions: I haven't read every single reaction/post here so bear with me if these have been answered before. Do we have something like a compilation of all the different Soulcaster forms? Does Szeth have a highspren? What exactly is the relation between Nightblood and the Nightwatcher (if there is one)? Is there a relationship between the paintings in the lighthouse they visited in Shadesmar and Wit's story (the wall and the little girl)? During a Dalinar flashback, he saw a light when he went outside during a highstorm. That was never explained. Any theories? I don't understand why Moelach is helping the humans with the Deathrattles. Isn't he an Unmade? Thank you for reading. Â
CrazyRioter she/her Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 Szeth does have a highspren now, it seems like he or she is just not very interactive. Hopefully we will get to see Szeth interact with his spren more in the next book because those relationships are always interesting. Hoid did use aluminium to insulate the soulcaster from the voidspren. Nightblood was apparently in the Nightwatcher's possession at some point. We have no idea how that happened. Other then that there's no particular connection between them. The other questions I have no insight on.
Lord Anomander Rake he/him Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 Aha, good to have some confirmation. On the Nightwatcher stuff, I'm guessing Vasher asked for something that resulted in him losing Nightblood. Â
TousenShadowForged he/him Posted July 3, 2018 Posted July 3, 2018 So how about those constant screw overs on the parshendi  Just wow they can't get a breakÂ
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