[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[StormyQueen she/her]

Well, that was certainly one hell of a ride. 40 hours (yes, including sleep) and 7 cups of tea later, and I'm finished. Don't think I'll do that for the next book though, as I have less of an idea what happened at the end in the avalanche.

Maybe it was for that reason that I found the avalanche somewhat underwhelming? I don't know, I just felt like there wasn't enough major plot twists concerning the assumptions we make throughout the story, and that it ended to nicely? I was expecting more dead people, but pretty much everybody made it through, and that kind of felt weird? Then again, this is possibly the result of reading for pretty much 2 days without doing much else, so, take it with a grain of salt

Anyway, favourite bits:

-Jasnah. Yes. So much Jasnah. Very good. 10/10. Now also Queen in more ways than one. I found the references to her so-called 'lunacy' interesting, and I look forwards to seeing if it was actually lunacy was actual lunacy or something else with the easy label stuck on (she isn't afraid of being controversial after all...)

-The Girl Who Looked Up and Shallan + Hoid storytelling. This was particularly touching for me, as Shallan's experiences with her past and the way she deals with it (badly) are resonant with my own experiences. I was crying when Hoid was consoling Shallan, it just felt like such a touching and personal moment.

-Spren cities! I just wish we got to see a bit more of these! It looks sooooo interesting! 

-Dalinar's flashbacks. Not quite sure what I think of him now... In a good way that is.

-Kaladin's breakdown in Kholinar. This just felt like it was brimming with character. Tragic, but well written. (But please don't hurt him anymore Brandon)

-Elkohar's character development. But then he just had to die.... (damnation it Sanderson)

-Queen Fen. I really hope we'll see more of her in future.

-Rock being group mum with everybody coming to him for advice.

-Trashy Rosharan Romance (Wema and Sterling all the way  )

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

8 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Dude... Taln? Way more honorable- and GOOD- than Szeth. Nothing against Szeth. But seriously.  

I did think of Taln while writing that post. However I wrote it anyway, because I think Taln is the strongest and the best person in all of SA but as we've discussed before strength and good do not equal honor. They may be compliments, but not necesary. In its purest essence, with no additions or intentions Szeth is probably the closest to Honor around. Taln is just the closest being to a perfect human (or so it seems so far) .

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Just now, winter devotion said:

But What's GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE SPIKE

We'd need to know the innate powers of the Heralds to know how much we need to frick out....Holy chull. 

I just realized something. If you spike someone with Jezrien's spike would that person be added to the Oathpact?? The implications are mindboggling. The simplest is that if by some reason the Desolation ends and they use a Herald on Damnation to plug the Voidbringers in, that newly hacked person could just go to Damnation and yield allowing the Desolation to restart. Thats the easiest one. The other possible implications may be horrifrying to imagine.

[Islington]

6 hours ago, Seonid said:

Which Cosmere stuff in particular bothered you?

Mostly Vivenna and her Ginsu. Kaladin investigating her and her being like "Yeah I'm from Nalthis and have a magic color eating sword" was just a shade too front and center for me. Zahel had the perfect amount of screen time and references for me. 

[Blacksmithki]

16 minutes ago, Islington said:

Mostly Vivenna and her Ginsu. Kaladin investigating her and her being like "Yeah I'm from Nalthis and have a magic color eating sword" was just a shade too front and center for me. Zahel had the perfect amount of screen time and references for me. 

The difference here is mostly that Brandon had always intended those characters to be a part of stormlight archives and mostly made warbreaker as a way to introduce them. Even if you look back at WoK Prime, Zahel is more or less the same character he is here, minus a few colour metaphors. I don't mind if characters he has always intended to be a big part of the series have larger parts, you really don't need to have read warbreaker to understand them, it just is nice i find.

[Islington]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

The difference here is mostly that Brandon had always intended those characters to be a part of stormlight archives and mostly made warbreaker as a way to introduce them. Even if you look back at WoK Prime, Zahel is more or less the same character he is here, minus a few colour metaphors. I don't mind if characters he has always intended to be a big part of the series have larger parts, you really don't need to have read warbreaker to understand them, it just is nice i find.

I disagree. She defies all in world explanation and sticks out like a sore thumb. It's like when Doctor Strange shows up in Thor. Hes against the...aesthetic so much he opens a million questions when he shows up. 

 

Like I said, I trust Brandon. It didn't sour the book for me or anything, but it did stick out. 

[flying_shadow she/her]

I loved how at the end, Lopen shows the one-armed man some tricks to make living with only one arm easier. 

[Jaconis]

Firstly, blown away by the book.

Secondly, my initial thoughts were a bit of disappointment, but mostly because one of the biggest reveals I was wanting in this book we didn’t get, which was: HOW IN THE WORLD IS SHARDPLATE MADE?!?!?!? We were about to find out and it got ripped from us. I think we got pretty strong hints it’s the cousin spren, with them appearing around Kaladin in shadesmar when they don’t normally come there, but I wanted hard facts storm it!

In all seriousness, amazing book. The more I think I about it, I may actually like it more than WoR, but at worst it’s equal.

On Adolin and Sadeas’ murder: yes, there was not much in terms of punishment for him...yet. I think that’s coming next book. Dalinar won’t keep it secret, as he learned secrets are what almost ruined everything. I’m not sure how people can say it didn’t get much attention though. It was literally Odium’s trump card in the final battle. Well, his second trump card, as making Dalinar his champion was his primary. Adolin thought about it when we got a POV from him, which wasn’t super often. All in all, it was addressed, but not finished. A fine state for a plot line in book 3 of 10. 

On Renarin: Eating crow about my belief that there wasn’t anything fishy about his spren. I began to realize I was wrong as soon as Wit told Shallan not to trust anyone who can see the future. Though, I’m still not of the belief that everyone who can see the future at all is of Odium. Clearly Cultivation can as well, and better than Odium, as she ruined his millennia long plan completely by giving Dalinar his memories back and preparing him for his confrontation. Renarin doesn’t seem to be bad though...that’s an open thread still. Also, is his spren a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, or some other spren entirely?

On Dalinar’s Spiritual Adhesion: Firstly want to point out how clever Sanderson has been with his book releases in general. This wouldn’t have made near as much sense, and couldn’t had been done as it was, if 

Spoiler

Bands of Mourning hadn’t gone through how this works first.

Also, opens the door for all sorts of possibilities for the other orders, and partially supports a theory of mine regarding Kaladin and Shallan specifically. People spiritually gravitate (gravity) to Kaladin, and are exceptionally loyal (adhesion). Shallan spiritually transforms people. Haven’t thought about the others much, but seems we might be able to extrapolate. 

On Nalan: as others have said, he is even more coocoo for ChocoPuffs than we originally thought. His logic to side with Odium is insane. I wonder how many of the Skybreakers will go with him. While talking about the Skybreakers though, I wonder if the other orders talked about their Ideals’ contents so openly, or if that was strictly a Skybreaker thing. Also, Nalan says Ishar’s mind was the most stable...doesn’t bode well for the rest of the Heralds.

On Kaladin’s struggle with his Fourth Ideal: I guess I see why it had to happen, but I personally didn’t like it. It sort of felt to me like it was only there for the reason people seem to like it, to avoid Kaladin being the savior each time. I fully realize that may be my bias, as I am Kaladin fan. Though, it seems that this Ideal is tough for all Windrunners, based on the one epigraph. That said, perfectly fine with Dalinar being the savior this time, and if possible done in an even more gut wrenching way than Kaladin’s Big Moments. 

There are so so many other things, but I’ll have to get to them after a reread where I can quote better. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Jaconis

[Sherkaner Underhill]

25 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

There are so so many other things, but I’ll have to get to them after a reread where I can quote better. 

Bother.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

14 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

oh frick. i mean. near infinite desolation at best.

I found this thread soon after posting that, quite nice chat there. First page talks of Heralds. Second page about possible consequences of Jezrien dead and spiked.

 

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Jaconis said:

Also, opens the door for all sorts of possibilities for the other orders, and partially supports a theory of mine regarding Kaladin and Shallan specifically. People spiritually gravitate (gravity) to Kaladin, and are exceptionally loyal (adhesion). Shallan spiritually transforms people. Haven’t thought about the others much, but seems we might be able to extrapolate. 

Any chance you're going to write a theory about that? And if so, please tag me. I'm interested.

[EvilNuff]

I loved the book, I thought it was much better written than Words despite having a less satisfying climax.  In no particular order things I liked and disliked:
 

Loved Maya, I think Adolin is fantastic with his sword.

Loved seeing Vivenna, I'm assuming her sword was created similarly to Nightblood just less psycho?

Loved Dalinars story arc.  It broke my heart when he went back to drinking.

Ehlokar is just a tragic figure, he wants to do better but just cannot.

I hated Shallan in this book.  Reading her chapters was just pure torture for me.

I want more Jasnah, she is so much more interesting to me than Shallan.

I am torn whether I feel sorry for Venli or not early and happy for her at the end or not.  On one hand she brought the about but on the other she suffered quite a bit as well.

I absolutely hated that Renarin lived.  Ugh by far my least favorite Sanderson character ever and I was so hopeful that Jasnah would do the right thing and kill him...ARGH!

[Leyrann]

4 minutes ago, EvilNuff said:

I absolutely hated that Renarin lived.  Ugh by far my least favorite Sanderson character ever and I was so hopeful that Jasnah would do the right thing and kill him...ARGH!

Don't let Odium control you.

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Don't let feather hear you, more like it. Wonder how she's holding up with that turn of events. 

 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

3 hours ago, Islington said:

I disagree. She defies all in world explanation and sticks out like a sore thumb. It's like when Doctor Strange shows up in Thor. Hes against the...aesthetic so much he opens a million questions when he shows up. 

 

Like I said, I trust Brandon. It didn't sour the book for me or anything, but it did stick out. 

YMMV. I think she fits perfectly, and how does she defy in world explanation? The key plot twist in this novel was all about migration from a different world. 

[Starla]

The Shadesmar section was my favorite part of the book. I love the spren and am fascinated by the Cognitive Realm. A few observations from this section:

Is Captain Ico Timbre’s father? Ico said his father was a radiant spren who is now a dead shardblade, and that his daughter used to work in Celebrant before leaving to chase stupid dreams. Timbre said her grandfather was killed by a radiant. If they are related, this would make the Reachers Willshaper spren, if that’s what Venli bonded. 

I loved getting Syl’s backstory. She's an ancient Honor princess who is so well known in Shadesmar that people recognized her despite Shallan’s illusion and a big floppy hat. And the Stormfather is an overprotective dad. I also loved her and Kaladin’s interactions. She’s very loving and cuddly and it was nice to see them interact in a different way.

Pattern is not very cuddly, but is awesome in his own way. At one point Shallan said he was standing around thinking about numbers and I laughed out loud. Also, it seems that he and Syl like each other, which is nice. I would love that have seen a little more from him in this section.

What’s deal with the oracle orb in the lighthouse that showed Kaladin a future vision? It seemed connected to the highstorm, and the stormfather sensed his presence when he touched it, but I don’t believe Honor has any access to foretelling. Could it use magic from another world, maybe Sel? It's great to see Kaladin and Dalinar’s strong connection in this section.

Poor Maya. I am curious about what happens to her when Adolin is in the physical realm. Does she disappear in the CR when he summons his blade? And when it’s not summoned, does she move around in the CR to follow his movements?

With all of the oathgates and Cultivation’s perpendicularity guarded by voidspren, it seems Azure and other worldhoppers may be trapped in Shadesmar for a while. I hope Jasnah can perfect her Elsecalling abilities so someone can move between realms. I want to see more of it.

What’s the deal with painting Kaladin saw in Celebrant? The merchant said it was from the Court of the Gods. Could this be related to Lightsong in some way? It’s been a while since I read Warbreaker, but I recall paintings being a big deal for him.

[Hischier]

Overall, I liked the book but it didn't blow me away like the first two did. My main complaints were with a lot of things being set-up and then fizzling out. The love triangle, Adolin murdering Sadeas, Elhokar's death should've had a more lasting impact to me, Ialai I thought was going to be more of a threat, a few other things I'm probably forgetting.

I didn't mind the secret of the Recreance being what it was. It makes sense that it happened well after the 'Final Desolation' and it went along with the theme of the book. 

Jasnah, Lift, Hoid, and Dalinar were all awesome. I'm not a big Renarin mark but I loved the twist there.  I also thought the bait and switch with Eshonai and Venli was well done. 

While I enjoyed the bridge 4 perspectives, I probably would've kept it to Teft and Rlain. 

Syl and Pattern continue to steal the show for me, especially Syl.  Wish there had been more interaction between Syl and Pattern though while we had the chance. 

Adolin didn't feel like he had much going on to me. All of the other characters had such powerful inner conflicts and he's basically perfect. I like Adolin and not every character needs a major arc, but I just would've cut some of his viewpoints in favor of other characters. 

Kalladin is my favorite character by far so I am biased here, but I would've liked to see more from his POV during Shadesmar. I thought his arc was solid overall, but even from his perspective the whole Shalladin was disappointing. Halfway through it's set up to make you think he's in love with Shallan and right when Shallan chooses Adolin he realizes that she just reminds him of his brother? That's awfully convenient (my opinion is he's lying to himself there). I just wish something would go right for him (just not a way too convenient new love interest just to give him one). Next book he's probably going to find out his parents have been murdered though. 

Shallan has always been a little annoying to me, but I thought her character arc had a the potential to go in a lot of really cool ways. I think it would've been a lot stronger if there were more consequences to her split personality thing. That was set up so well, but it was a lot of almost to me, so I hope there's more to that going forward. It is left kind of ambiguous at the end there. Like, she thinks she's getting better but I didn't really get that impression. 

I figured out who Vivenna was really quickly. She was great but I think she got a little too much screen time for her first appearance in the story. 

That's a lot of complaining about stuff, for a book I still enjoyed. So I'll end with how much I loved Dalinar's story in this one. It was really fantastic.

[MonsterMetroid]

Just finished and I just wanted to say I loved this book! Once I get home I will add more to this post.

Biggest disappointment: Everstorm destruction reveal. In the last book we heard how much destruction the everstorm was going to cause a ton of destruction because it blew the wrong way. In this book at the beginning it is something more just talked about and not really felt. I suppose I was expecting much more feelings of destruction and death and it just felt glossed over until near the end of the book after the storm hit several times. 

[Islington]

1 hour ago, IndigoAjah said:

YMMV. I think she fits perfectly, and how does she defy in world explanation? The key plot twist in this novel was all about migration from a different world. 

Her strange "Shardblade", her insistence that she's been in Shadesmar before to travel, her preparation for Awakening, and her speaking about Nightblood all stood out to me as things that if you haven't read Warbreaker, would lend Azure "I'm a protagonist" syndrome. 

 

Azure raises SO MANY questions to the reader of just the Stormlight Archive that she could eclipse some of the main characters in terms of Protagonist-ness. She feels like the protagonist of a separate work dropping by to say hello, which she is, but it makes you want to see more of her than perhaps some of the actual main characters. She basically says "I'm from another planet with different magic and I have a special lightsaber and know other mysterious characters in the plot. Anyway, good luck saving the world or whatever, I'm going to go reminisce about Warbreaker 2: Vengeance over here" and it kinda pulled me out of the story for a bit. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

13 minutes ago, Islington said:

Her strange "Shardblade", her insistence that she's been in Shadesmar before to travel, her preparation for Awakening, and her speaking about Nightblood all stood out to me as things that if you haven't read Warbreaker, would lend Azure "I'm a protagonist" syndrome. 

 

Azure raises SO MANY questions to the reader of just the Stormlight Archive that she could eclipse some of the main characters in terms of Protagonist-ness. She feels like the protagonist of a separate work dropping by to say hello, which she is, but it makes you want to see more of her than perhaps some of the actual main characters. She basically says "I'm from another planet with different magic and I have a special lightsaber and know other mysterious characters in the plot. Anyway, good luck saving the world or whatever, I'm going to go reminisce about Warbreaker 2: Vengeance over here" and it kinda pulled me out of the story for a bit. 

How is that any different to, say, Jasnah? Szeth? Mraize? The only reason she seems out of place is because you KNOW she's from Warbreaker (or more accurately, Warbreaker is her character prequel to give backstory for when she turns up here). Ignoring that cross- world interactions is meant to be a major point in SA anyway, none of those things are any more enigmatic than the first time we hear about any of the new concepts in this book (as in, new to the characters). You are biased simply because you know the origins of her mysteries 

[Fineous he/him]

O.K. so does anyone else have a serious problem with the revelation of the Recreance?  I apologize if anyone else already posted this, I wanted to get this out whilst I was thinking about it, and will go back to read other posts afterwards.  So we discover that the Recreance happened because the Knights discover that A. Humans are the voidbringers and B. Humans fled to Roshar after destroying their own world with surgebinding, something that Jasnah says 'she had suspected'. 

The problem I have with this is that certainly Jasnah, and also all the ardents, and I am pretty certain it is common knowledge to virtually everyone, that the Radiants came AFTER the Heralds.  The Heralds were the first to have surge binding powers from the Honorblades, and the Radiants copied those powers with their bonds to Spren.  So the early pre-history of Roshar just doesn't hold up.  How could humans have destroyed their world with Surgebinding before having had access to Surgebinding?  Magic in the cosmere derives from investiture from the local shard, in this case Honor, which means that before coming to Roshar Humans couldn't possibly have been able to Surgebind.  Even if Jasnah doesn't have access to all the information we do about the Cosmere and Investiture, surely she would have realized that she was putting the cart before the horse with saying surgebinding destroyed humanity's first world.  This is made even more clear with our access to Hoid's parable about the humans having lived in the protected valley of Shinovar, and how they then 'climbed' out, thus giving them access to the Highstorm's Stormlight and the powers of Surgebinding (Which admittedly Jasnah doesn't have access to, but it was just the part that really cemented in my mind that something was really not right).  Jasnah is a bit of a mary sue, and from the way she is written I think she should have discovered this error in logical thinking right away, but instead she is actually the one who puts the idea forward.

So, taking into account Jasnah's illness as a child, which drove her out of her mind, and the revelation of Radiant's being able to bond to storm twisted spren but still have access to Radiant powers, do people think that Jasnah may be bonded to a corrupted spen too, something that happened to her as a very young child, and she doesn't even realize it?  And has it been subtly guiding her since childhood?  Is JASNAH the one destined to be Odium's champion?

 

Just a few thoughts.  Will continue to think about this for a while, but I only just finished Oathbringer and it will almost certainly take a second reading of Oathbringer (Also, Warbreaker) before I have any other thoughts about the book cemented in my head.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Fineous
didn't mean to trigger Smileys.

[Aleksiel]

@Fineous you are not alone. I think it was actually voidbinding, we have a voidbinding chart in the first book. Also, Ishar sealing the Oathpact raises questions, too: why would Honor give them Honorblades before swearing any oaths? Why not bind the Heralds himself? Does this mean Honorblades predate Desolations? Listeners' lore has it they joined the enemy after spren betrayed them, but nahel bond became a fact after the Oathpact. There are a bunch of things that just don't add up.

 

58 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Ignoring that cross- world interactions is meant to be a major point in SA anyway, none of those things are any more enigmatic than the first time we hear about any of the new concepts in this book (as in, new to the characters). You are biased simply because you know the origins of her mysteries 

The cosmere is slowly taking over SA imo, despite Brandon saying he'll avoid that. Nightblood can be explained as a Blade poorly crafted by the Nightwatcher, however Azure is so out of place there's no in-world explanation for her. Hoid and the rest of the worldhoppers were already heavily hinting towards something far more than Roshar, but that could have been swept under the rug for most readers. Vivenna on the other hand can't, at least I do not see how all her out-of-placeness can be explained away without making the readers cosmerely aware unless she's not explained at all just like Hoid and all the cosmere mail, which makes even less sense - who in Damnation provides planetary postal service? All that magic and a bunch of heavily invested beings are communication via letters? 

[Jess]

48 minutes ago, Fineous said:

How could humans have destroyed their world with Surgebinding before having had access to Surgebinding?  Magic in the cosmere derives from investiture from the local shard, in this case Honor, which means that before coming to Roshar Humans couldn't possibly have been able to Surgebind.

This thought occurred to me too, but I haven't really finished thinking about it. For now I suspect that Jasnah et al are calling all magic "Surgebinding" (cf "chickens" "wine") and whatever the migrant humans destroyed their previous world with was probably different. However, two things:

1. I think the ancient humans arrived from Ashyn, which is just next door, so to speak. I think it's entirely plausible that the whole Roshar system, not just the planet that Honor and Cultivation are most involved with, has some overarching theme/mechanic underpinning its various magics. Thus, the pre-migration magic could very well have resembled Surgebinding significantly.

2. The migrant humans are said to have brought Odium with them. The answer could be as simple as "It was actually Voidbinding, not Surgebinding".

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, Fineous said:

O.K. so does anyone else have a serious problem with the revelation of the Recreance?  I apologize if anyone else already posted this, I wanted to get this out whilst I was thinking about it, and will go back to read other posts afterwards.  So we discover that the Recreance happened because the Knights discover that A. Humans are the voidbringers and B. Humans fled to Roshar after destroying their own world with surgebinding, something that Jasnah says 'she had suspected'. 

The problem I have with this is that certainly Jasnah, and also all the ardents, and I am pretty certain it is common knowledge to virtually everyone, that the Radiants came AFTER the Heralds.  The Heralds were the first to have surge binding powers from the Honorblades, and the Radiants copied those powers with their bonds to Spren.  So the early pre-history of Roshar just doesn't hold up.  How could humans have destroyed their world with Surgebinding before having had access to Surgebinding?  Magic in the cosmere derives from investiture from the local shard, in this case Honor, which means that before coming to Roshar Humans couldn't possibly have been able to Surgebind.  Even if Jasnah doesn't have access to all the information we do about the Cosmere and Investiture, surely she would have realized that she was putting the cart before the horse with saying surgebinding destroyed humanity's first world.  This is made even more clear with our access to Hoid's parable about the humans having lived in the protected valley of Shinovar, and how they then 'climbed' out, thus giving them access to the Highstorm's Stormlight and the powers of Surgebinding (Which admittedly Jasnah doesn't have access to, but it was just the part that really cemented in my mind that something was really not right).  Jasnah is a bit of a mary sue, and from the way she is written I think she should have discovered this error in logical thinking right away, but instead she is actually the one who puts the idea forward.

 

It is suspected that what is meant is that humans used Voidbinding to destroy their previous world. Its close enough to surgebinding that they use that word, after all after thousands of years some knowledge shifted or was lost.

Secondly, the fact that Odium was originally the human god was not so clear in any of the records. I believe that was confirmed by the spren instead?

Finally, I know many people say they are underwhelmed by the Recreance, so I will say that its likely part of the problem of the Recreance is that Honor's death had started. The KR were been led by a dying Shard, becoming pure Honor without morality or goodness. In addition there hadn't been a Desolation in 2000 years, the KR likely felt useless and without purpose. Add these 2 points to knowing parsh were in Roshar first plus humans destroyed their old world, and its not so unlikely.

In any case, don't assume we know all the past, as we are still missing some pieces. Like, who were the KR fighting when they forswore their oaths? What destroyed Aimia?

Edited November 17, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard
ninja'd

[Seonid he/him]

3 hours ago, EvilNuff said:

I absolutely hated that Renarin lived.  Ugh by far my least favorite Sanderson character ever and I was so hopeful that Jasnah would do the right thing and kill him...ARGH!

Why would it have been the right thing to do? I think it's clear that Renarin is on team Honor.