[OB] Inside cover art!! Finally!

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

@Calderis Thanks for posting those WoBs. I didn't realize the backstory, and that's very interesting. It makes more sense to me than the idea that this is just a weird eccentricity that the Alethi has. It makes me think about the Sons of Honor assumption that once a Desolation starts and the Heralds return, then that will lead to a resurgence of the Vorin church and generally a more conservative society. But how reasonable is that?

Here's something that we've seen with spren, from Pattern to the Stormfather: they don't care about (or always understand) human social classes or status, and will visit supernatural abilities on atheists and thieves and humble tradesmen and branded slaves. All that matters to them is whether the person involved will say the Oaths and live by them. Before the Recreance, the Vorin church and the nobility would have had to co-exist with a constantly replenishing class of warriors, diplomats, and so forth that would come from all religious and cultural background. (One imagines that conservative elites hated the Knights Radiant long before the Recreance.) This would have made elite society much more fluid in those days than it is now.

It seems to me that the conservative moment in Alethi society didn't happen until after the Aharietiam and the Recreance: only once the Knights Radiants left were they able to enact the strict laws of gender segregation that exist now. The bright young darkeyes who would have taken the Oaths and become influential Elsecallers or WIndrunners remained ditch-diggers and stablehands, so presumably class stratification greatly increased. I don't have a strong sense of how long the Hierocracy was after the Recreance, but presumably that would have only been possible in a post-KR power vacuum.

So the notion that bringing back a Desolation and the Heralds will bring back the glory days of the Vorin church seems ahistorical to me; if anything, Amaram should be trying to _stop_ the Desolation from ever happening, because nothing is more dangerous to the orthodoxy that does exist.

[ScavellTane]

A lot of people don't really believe the Radiants had fantastical powers, so perhaps the Sons of Honor believe that with the current Alethi scientific and military prowess they could prevail when compared with their perception that the ancients where primitive. Especially since they believe, with the 'black gemstone' they could carefully control the arrival of the Desolation.

[Calderis he/him]

@Harry the Heir modern Vorinism didn't exist then, your right. With the basis on Lighteyes and Darkeyes, they couldn't have risen to power until after the gems. We're added to the blades and bonding became possible which, from the digging I've done seems to have happened 75 to 150 years after the Recreance. Added in a good number of  generations to make it seem like this was divine right rather than just people bonding blades and I think the absolute earliest the hierocracy could have been was around 400 years post Recreance. 

The longer the gem bonding discovery took to occur, the longer it took for light eyes to be pervasive in those in power beyond those actually holding a blade, and the longer the basis of "lighteyes are appointed by the Almighty" to be an accepted belief. 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

The gems are responsible for the lighteyes? I didn't know that either. Is that in a WoB, or was it mentioned in one of the books?

[Yata he/him]

17 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

The gems are responsible for the lighteyes? I didn't know that either. Is that in a WoB, or was it mentioned in one of the books?

The Gemstones allow the Shardblade's bond and the Bond turns the Eyes lighter (we see it with Moash)...This implicit suggests that Lighteyes are superior from the Cultural PoV

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

The gems are responsible for the lighteyes? I didn't know that either. Is that in a WoB, or was it mentioned in one of the books?

Here you go. 

Quote

QUESTION

Is it the power of the bond between humans and spren, the Nahel bond, or from the swords—the existing Shardblades—that causes the eyes to turn light?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh ... yes.

QUESTION

Does each specific order have their own spren that they would bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Each order has a spren that is distinctive. All Windrunners come from wind— from honorspren.

The eye color change is tied to bonding the blade, which isn't possible without the gemstone. 

[Salkara]

19 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

The gems are responsible for the lighteyes? I didn't know that either. Is that in a WoB, or was it mentioned in one of the books?

My understanding from the various WoBs is that Rosharan humans were naturally darkeyed. However, the Nahel bond affects a person's DNA, and over time, descendants of the Knights Radiant were born as lighteyes.

We also know from Dalinar's first vision that the KR were somewhat insular (e.g. lived only in Urithuru and Alethela), so it's likely the incidence of marriage (or more directly, procreation) among KR was relatively high, which would result in lighter-eyed offspring.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

My understanding from the various WoBs is that Rosharan humans were naturally darkeyed. However, the Nahel bond affects a person's DNA, and over time, descendants of the Knights Radiant were born as lighteyes.

We also know from Dalinar's first vision that the KR were somewhat insular (e.g. lived only in Urithuru and Alethela), so it's likely the incidence of marriage (or more directly, procreation) among KR was relatively high, which would result in lighter-eyed offspring.

This may have been true. Full Radiants eyes may have changed permanently once all the Oaths were spoken. So far though, we've seen Kaladin's eyes revert to dark after a few hours without Syl in blade form. 

The only method we've seen so far of a permanent, and inherited, change is from bonding the dead blades. 

[frozndevl]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

This may have been true. Full Radiants eyes may have changed permanently once all the Oaths were spoken. So far though, we've seen Kaladin's eyes revert to dark after a few hours without Syl in blade form. 

The only method we've seen so far of a permanent, and inherited, change is from bonding the dead blades. 

It might be that because of the required oaths, the full breadth of eye lightening doesn't happen till #5; however, with the dead blades there aren't any requirements to speak oaths, so the eye lightening happens immediately. This could speak to the spiritual aspect (I think it's spiritual, not cognitive) aspect being slowly modified via oaths, but immediately once a dead spren is bonded. 

[Aleksiel]

There aren't ten different light eye colors, which should have been the case if every KR became lighteyed. So far we've seen five: green, grey, yellow, violet and blue. I suppose it could work if every two orders shared color.

[Calderis he/him]

44 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

There aren't ten different light eye colors, which should have been the case if every KR became lighteyed. So far we've seen five: green, grey, yellow, violet and blue. I suppose it could work if every two orders shared color.

And tan. 

The eye color, whether from Radiants or blades, is tied to the Orders. If the dead blades cause a change in eye color, why would it cause a change other than to the order the dead spren belonged to? 

[Aleksiel]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And tan. 

The eye color, whether from Radiants or blades, is tied to the Orders. If the dead blades cause a change in eye color, why would it cause a change other than to the order the dead spren belonged to? 

Yeah, you are right, I forgot the light tan eyes. But tthen where are the other light eye colors if there should be ten? Baxil described Ash's eyes as pale violet, which isn't associated with LW.

Dark eyes are said to be really dark other colors - dark violet, dark green... May be they turn a lighter version of the original via the dead Blade bond.

edit: just to clarify, those are two different thoughts, I'm not saying Kaladin had dark blue eyes before sylblade

Edited October 30, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Yeah, you are right, I forgot the light tan eyes. But tthen where are the other light eye colors if there should be ten? Baxil described Ash's eyes as pale violet, which isn't associated with LW.

Dark eyes are said to be really dark other colors - dark violet, dark green... May be they turn a lighter version of the original via the dead Blade bond.

edit: just to clarify, those are two different thoughts, I'm not saying Kaladin had dark blue eyes before sylblade

I understand, and I hadn't really considered that, though I'm sure I've had this argument before... 

The colors we have seen match orders so far though. And for dead blades to be the cause we actually only need 8 colors. 

Bondsmiths didn't have blade, and one order didn't abandon. Now that that's brought up though, grey eyes are pretty good evidence against Skybreakers being the order to remain if that's correct... 

Rambling different thoughts here. Sorry. There may be some some overlap in colors, I want to explore this again. 

[Aleksiel]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I understand, and I hadn't really considered that, though I'm sure I've had this argument before... 

The colors we have seen match orders so far though. And for dead blades to be the cause we actually only need 8 colors. 

Bondsmiths didn't have blade, and one order didn't abandon. Now that that's brought up though, grey eyes are pretty good evidence against Skybreakers being the order to remain if that's correct... 

Rambling different thoughts here. Sorry. There may be some some overlap in colors, I want to explore this again. 

I don't completely agree on Bondsmiths with you. SF told Dalinar he won't become Blade, that doesn't mean no BS ever had one. 

If radiants' children inherit their eyecolor, the existence of grey lighteyes doesn't go against the theory SB kept their oaths. Even if you consider bonding a dead Blade to change eyes to color matching that of the order (I'm skeptical, but there isn't enough to argue), then note we haven't seen a grey eyed Shardbearer in WoK:

Quote

Cenn couldn’t make out his eye color, but he knew it would be blue or green, maybe yellow or light grey.

Vargo's description:

Quote

He was elderly, with a wispy white beard, and had pale grey eyes.

Quote

Vamah himself was a round-faced, balding man. The short hair that remained stuck straight up, and he had light grey eyes.

I didn't find any grey eyed Shardbearers in WoR either, but I think not all of them had their respective colors mentioned. However I still think the whole eye color thing isn't clear, if Ash and LW are with violet eyes, what's the eyecolor for WS, where's the pale red for DB? 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I don't completely agree on Bondsmiths with you. SF told Dalinar he won't become Blade, that doesn't mean no BS ever had one. 

No Bondsmith had blades. 

Quote

Questioner

And there's one last question if I may: I'm really into swords and such. I couldn't help but notice king Elhokar's Blade. It's just... All the others are ornamented, and they may have some glyphs, but it is the only one where it is explicitly it is told that there are ten fundamental glyphs on it which are the glyphs of the orders. I read some of the chapters from Dalinar from Unfettered II, and I know how he got it for Elhokar. Is there also some more backstory to this Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a backstory to every Blade and every one of them is special, that's the problem. But I will be exploring the origins of some of the Blades. Eventually. Not a ton, but a little bit.

Questioner

As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith's didn't have Blades.

Questioner

All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. 

Questioner

But maybe there is at least something to it.

Brandon Sanderson

But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders.

As to the rest, yeah, it relies on the Knights eyes not being genetic which is flimsy, I admit. But until we see the upper oaths... We have not seen a permanent eye change. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

We've also seen an orange colored light eyes. 

[Nymeros]

Hmmm so that thing around Jezriens head that makes it look like his mind is blown is the Almighty? Cool detail.

Did we know before the most recent chapters that the Almight was often visualized as a storm cloud?

[Stark he/him]

On 10/26/2017 at 5:58 PM, mariapapadia said:

I agree. I am not a fan of those earings and that belt  I appreciate the use of a glove on the safehand, but it feels a bit odd paired with such a flowy dress. I feel like someone who has a glove on the safehand would wear something a bit more practical. (When did this turn into Stormlight's next top model, I don't know )

For me, there is something about how Jezrien's cape flows that feels off, or not real.  I don't know if the wind is supposed to be swirling around him in a mini tornado, or what, but that does not feel realistic.  His face also seems a bit off to me.  Vedel is harder for me to put my finger on what bugs me.  Maybe its the pose, maybe its the active backdrop maybe it is the accessories that bother me.  Or maybe its that the second two feel more like a stained glass painting you would find in a church, and are therefore stiff and unlifelike rather than real.

 

The first two feel real.  Like we are looking at photos of real people, in real situations.  You can tell a bit about the personalities of Shallash and Ishar. The second two feel like paintings in comparison.

[StormingTexan he/him]

The first two have an air of mystery about them and look to be candid shots compared to the last two which are poses in all their glory. As we want to dissect the mystery of everything here I think we are naturally drawn to the first two. If I was looking at them objectively as art with no bias I think I would think the last two are prettier. 

[theuntaintedchild he/him]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:10 PM, GeneralStu said:

Three of them, vedel jezrien and Ishar give me a serious renaissance christianity vibe. Maybe it's happenstance but those three all have halo like objects behind their heads, reminiscent of how the saints and angels are depicted in Christian artwork.

If this was intentional I wonder what it means that Shalash's halo. (The Moon behind her) is not near her head but directly behind her. Is Shallan the betrayer because her Herald has a fallen halo?

[mariapapadia she/her]

4 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

The first two have an air of mystery about them and look to be candid shots compared to the last two which are poses in all their glory. As we want to dissect the mystery of everything here I think we are naturally drawn to the first two. If I was looking at them objectively as art with no bias I think I would think the last two are prettier. 

 

5 hours ago, Stark said:

For me, there is something about how Jezrien's cape flows that feels off, or not real.  I don't know if the wind is supposed to be swirling around him in a mini tornado, or what, but that does not feel realistic.  His face also seems a bit off to me.  Vedel is harder for me to put my finger on what bugs me.  Maybe its the pose, maybe its the active backdrop maybe it is the accessories that bother me.  Or maybe its that the second two feel more like a stained glass painting you would find in a church, and are therefore stiff and unlifelike rather than real.

 

The first two feel real.  Like we are looking at photos of real people, in real situations.  You can tell a bit about the personalities of Shallash and Ishar. The second two feel like paintings in comparison.

I actually think the first to are more powerful because they give  some information, but keep the mistery . I liked how someone interpreted the image of Shalash and made an analogy with the Birth of Venus. I don't know.. there is something in their simplicity that makes me appreciate them more. The second ones are nice and they give quite a lot of information, but they don't have the same charm or feeling.

Personally I also prefer the artist/graphic style better in the first two, but I guess art is subjective and everyone is going to have their own take on it .

Edited November 2, 2017 by mariapapadia

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't know.. there is something in their simplicity that makes me appreciate them more.

Agreed sometimes less is more (of course in Ash's case less is in the literal sense ).