[OB] The Girl Who Looked Up

[Leyrann]

Shallash is an Elantrian.

(I guess there's about twently places where that doesn't work out, but whatever)

[Tarion]

"Before the storms" and "a wall kept out the storms" is interesting. 

It makes sense a couple of ways, and I'm not sure which is best. 

1) Differentiating between "highstorms" and "storms". It was before the Highstorms were what they are (SuperInvested), but it still kept out the lower case storms.

2) A quirk of language - it was set before highstorms at all, but Alethi uses "storms" as a catch-all for bad weather. 

3) It's a faerie tale, so consistency isn't required.

As for the meaning, my first bet is that it's an old Horneater story that crept into Veden culture through the intermixing, with the Horneaters being locked away in their peaks, considered monsters for their Parshendi blood.

But thinking about it, and considering the physical changes of crossing over, stealing stormlight from a perfect society, I think it's a story about the human spren relationship. I can't quite work out which side is which. The perfect society being the Spren works - Human crossing over to Shadesmar and back fits a lot if it. The seemingly insurmountable wall that no-one wants to cross is death. The character dies, experiences something in the Cognitive Realm, and is restored with new knowledge. 

On the other hand, I could see it the other way - A spren, trapped in the cognitive world, crossing over. Seeing the human world, and taking something from humanity (Experience, the ability to think in the Physical realm). 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I posted this on the chapter review thread, but I'm bringing it over here as well for relevancy. 

 

I think the story is directly related to this epigraph from WoK. 

 

Quote

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

WoK Chapter 36

I've got a couple of different reasons. 

 

First and foremost, there's a direct parralel with the stairs. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to say that a playwright would take a fragmented poem and recreate it to adapt to their needs. So the girl climbs the wall and see steps leading down into a perfect society where she steals Stormlight and brings it back to her village and that caused the storms. 

 

So let's analyze it just a bit. This is supposed to be before the storms and has to do with bringing both Stormlight and storms to greater Roshar in some way. By taking whatever it was back with her, it brought down 'the wall' and the storms came as punishment. But this is allegory. Let's use the allegory to analyze the epigraph and use some information from other places to see if we can't come up with a cogent theory. 

 

So I think that one of the Dawnshards, whatever is may be, is responsible for the incredible amounta of investiture in highstorms and a blending of the two stories is a true telling of what happened. He, or the girl who looked up,climbed the steps and took the Dawnshard. This caused him to become so incredibly invested, it attracted a highstorm around him, and created the Stormlight phenomenon. He left the grand temple, where he statues with the apears and the terrible images were, and began to start his/her centuries long travels around Roshar. 

 

Essentially, I think that this is the origin story of the strider in the center of the storm. The 'stormlight' that was stolen is a dawnshard that is responsible for the high amounts of investiture in highstorms. Less likely, but I still want to throw this in there, I think that the theft of the Dawnshard could Mark the beginning of the war between the listeners and the humans.

[Wreith he/him]

One of my questions about this story is why tearing down the wall would be a punishment for those inside if they were the threat being contained.
I think it's likely that the punishment was for those outside the wall, for allowing the theft of the stormlight or possibly just for allowing one of the prisoners escape. 

The steps indicate that someone should have been keeping an eye on those inside.

Watchers at the rim, anyone?

Edited October 24, 2017 by Wreith

[Aon Ati he/him]

I just have one question for is forum. Who told Shallan this story? It was given to her in a play but this seems to be an important story about Roshar's history. And who do we know who has a knack of telling important stories in a metaphorical way?

[Steeldancer he/him]

3 minutes ago, Aon Ati said:

I just have one question for is forum. Who told Shallan this story? It was given to her in a play but this seems to be an important story about Roshar's history. And who do we know who has a knack of telling important stories in a metaphorical way?

Could it be like her pictures? 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

11 minutes ago, Aon Ati said:

I just have one question for is forum. Who told Shallan this story? It was given to her in a play but this seems to be an important story about Roshar's history. And who do we know who has a knack of telling important stories in a metaphorical way?

I don't understand your question. It directly states that this was a play she saw when she was younger. 

Quote

Shallan closed her eyes, smiling, remembering the last time she’d seen a play at her father’s. A traveling children’s troupe come to entertain her. 

 

[IllNsickly he/him]

6 hours ago, Daishi5 said:

 

 

What does the stealing of stormlight mean?  Did they steal actual investure or the ability to use it?

 

 

Humans aren't native to Roshar. They 'Stole' Stomlight via Spren with the Nahael bond.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

I could go both ways here..

Theres more world hoppers out there than we know of. Its not that far fetched that a story could cross the void and change over time to be more Rosharian.

Though if its Elantrian i saw the perfect society outside the walls to to be the Elantrians (hmmm Shallan unconsciously changing the girls hair white.. a truth?). Which makes me wonder if this story was about how the Elantrians broke..

!! And the girl was someone in disguis as this person wanted to steal Elantrick prowess !!

(Ok, calm down buddy. Bit of a jump there)

If its Rosharian in origin.. it does pose a few possibilities..

I liked that idea the girl is a herald.. and running with the concepts we've been givin in this book so far, could this story be:

* of the heralds breaking the listeners, stealing their light and bringing the storm?

* the recreance or what started it?

* what we did to help kill Honor - making Honors CS merge with The Storm Father and investing the storm? (Was that when the high storm got invested??)

Sneaky sneaky Sanderson.. 3 chapters a week and still you blow my mind. What will happen when i finally get my hands on this book!

I apologise in advance guys, i may become a raving lunatic..

!~ HIF ~!

Edited October 25, 2017 by Hoids Imaginary Friend
spelling / wording

[Aon Ati he/him]

2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I don't understand your question. It directly states that this was a play she saw when she was younger. 

 

I think that Wit was involved somehow in telling this story. It fits the type of story that he would tell and being a story teller and actor, theater seems to be a place where he would be at home.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

24 minutes ago, Aon Ati said:

I think that Wit was involved somehow in telling this story. It fits the type of story that he would tell and being a story teller and actor, theater seems to be a place where he would be at home.

Seems unlikely. For one, if Hoid was relevant to the section, it seems like Shallan would mention it, having not only met him twice, but because she holds enough regard for him that she hugged him on sight the second time she saw him. 

 

It also isn't like Hoid's style, and this scene is a pretty good demonstration why. Lightweavers just don't need all the fancy tricks that a theater troop does to put on a show. We've seen that demonstrated when he was Dust in Warbreaker and in both WoK with the Wandersail and WoR with Fleet. Being part of a troop using more mundane methods breaks his usual modus operandi.

[ScavellTane]

4 hours ago, Aon Ati said:

I think that Wit was involved somehow in telling this story. It fits the type of story that he would tell and being a story teller and actor, theater seems to be a place where he would be at home.

A worldsinger troupe probably put on the play.

[Leyrann]

A minor note for the theory that it is related to the stealing of the Dawnshard, what we're used to calling the Origin (as it's called that in-world) is of course also the east, where the sun dawns.

[Aon Ati he/him]

5 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

A worldsinger troupe probably put on the play.

Ohhhh! I wish I had thought of that! That makes so much sense. Now I really want to know who did this play to see if that's correct or not.

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

A worldsinger troupe probably put on the play.

I strongly doubt it. Worldsingers are emphatically not storytellers. They share information about the cultures of nations in order to bring people closer together. 

This was not a informative story. It was a children's play. 

[Stark he/him]

The other thing worth noting is hat there are two sides to every story.  In this case there may be three, only one of which we are exploring - the one where the girl's village was the evil to be kept out.  While we can agree that the wall was likely built by the other society, due to the fact that nobody puts stairs on the side of a wall designed to keep someone out, or spikes on the friendly side, we can't say much about the conflict that caused it.  It seems long enough ago that the youth of the girl's village take it for fact that the wall was always there.  Long enough for salient details to fade into the mists of time.

 

Quote

“That’s not a wall,” the boy said, drowsy. “That’s just the way the sky is over there.”

 And the villagers say the wall is there to protect them from things that would kill them.

Quote

“Very bad things. There is a wall. Do not go beyond it, or you shall die.”

So the wall is ancient - old enough that both sides of the wall forgot exactly why it is there, or why it was built.  But it ended a conflict, and there are two sides to every conflict.  And if the other side of the wall was advanced enough to be a city of light, and build such a wall, it is unlikely that the other city did not inflict casualties on the girl's village during the conflict.  And the good guys rarely concern themselves with making the outside of their walls look scary - that's usually what the orcs do.

 

So I see three options, with a tinfoil hat fourth.

1) The girl's village was the evil, the other society built the wall to end a war and keep them out.  Something, something tranquiline halls.

2)The other village was evil, but losing the war.  Peace was negotiated, and a wall was built to keep the girl's village out of 'mordor.'  This allowed the evil society to advance with stormlight tech, but the wall still served to protect the girl's society from the evil within.  Walls work both ways.  When the girl steals the light, evil rekindles and sends the storms, banishing them as the wall clearly was not doing its job. (Who builds a climbable wall anyway)

3)We have a "Wall in the North" situation from ASOIAF.  The wall was built to keep evil out thousands of years ago.  However, in that time evil seemingly disappeared, and some small societies went beyond the wall to escape rule they did not enjoy, becoming Wildlings.  They remembered that the wall was designed to protect, and the stuff on the other side was supposed to kill them, but forgot which side was the deadly side.  Over time, both societies began to think the wall was there to keep the other one out, with the true evil forgoteen (Last Desolation?  Tell them they've won, its over, this was the last.  For all we know, that could even be true.)

4) Aluminum hat time!

Quote

A high, terrible wall stretching toward the moons. Blocking the sky, throwing everything around the girl into shadow.

So we have a wall.  One one side, light.  On the other side, everything in darkness, no light.  A light side, a dark side, with a difficult to penetrate band between the two as far as anyone knows.  Does anyone else think that sounds like Taldain?

 

The telling of the story would lead the listener to believe the girl's village was the evil one.  It could be a story of someone sneaking accross the barrier to the Tranquiline halls to steal from the Heralds, and they were punished for it with storms.  It could be the story of humans coming to Roshar, and stealing the spren's love from the listeners.  It could be a tale from Taldain, trying to use mysticism to explain why the planet is tidally locked.  There are so many options for how to analyze such a short story.  It is truly fascinating.

 

I don't know which optiion I like best.

[Wreith he/him]

11 hours ago, Aon Ati said:

I think that Wit was involved somehow in telling this story. It fits the type of story that he would tell and being a story teller and actor, theater seems to be a place where he would be at home.

 

11 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Seems unlikely. For one, if Hoid was relevant to the section, it seems like Shallan would mention it, having not only met him twice, but because she holds enough regard for him that she hugged him on sight the second time she saw him. 

 

It also isn't like Hoid's style, and this scene is a pretty good demonstration why. Lightweavers just don't need all the fancy tricks that a theater troop does to put on a show. We've seen that demonstrated when he was Dust in Warbreaker and in both WoK with the Wandersail and WoR with Fleet. Being part of a troop using more mundane methods breaks his usual modus operandi.

This was actually my first thought. Not that he was the original one to tell Shallan the story, but that he was the last shadow and was tweaking her lightweaving, adding detail.
As I read, it just didn't seem to me that the shadow that calmly walked from the room matched the image of the creature cramming itself through a hole in the wall.

I considered that it might be Hoid leading Shallan to what she needed to see.

 

It's probably not true, but it was my first impression.

[Subvisual Haze]

It's a parable about knowledge and discovery, at least for Shallan.  In our youth we assume all knowledge and experience to be positive, but in time we discover the truth is a painful thing to embrace because it reveals uncomfortable facts about the world and ourselves.

[The Invested Beard]

52 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It's a parable about knowledge and discovery, at least for Shallan.  In our youth we assume all knowledge and experience to be positive, but in time we discover the truth is a painful thing to embrace because it reveals uncomfortable facts about the world and ourselves.

The best myths and stories have multiple applications and meanings. This could well be one of them.

[Leyrann]

If Brandon reads this thread he's probably like, "huh, that's five ways to interpret it that I hadn't even thought of but are valid".

[Wreith he/him]

19 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

If Brandon reads this thread he's probably like, "huh, that's five ways to interpret it that I hadn't even thought of but are valid".

I want a reality show that's just Brandon reading 17th shard threads

[Stark he/him]

7 minutes ago, Wreith said:

I want a reality show that's just Brandon reading 17th shard threads

Would the title of the show be RAFO and consist of him mainly shaking his head asking "Why would anyone think that?  Or be curious about that?  Do I have to worldbuild an answer to this now?  Peter!  We need another assistant who specializes in <insert obscure topic here> to make sure I can answer this/don't flub the answers too much and have to rely on Cosmere Ex Machina!"

[OrangeJedi he/him]

So my thoughts after skimming through this thread:

1. While no one knows what Brandon is thinking when he reads this thread, he probably meant the story's content to be of some significance. (bolded because I don't think that the scene was only there to show off Shallon's abilities)
2. We have lots of good theories out there, on of them is probably at least half right.
3. ELANTRIS! - finally someone mentions a crossover from a book other than Warbreaker.
4. My first though on the story was the girl was human, and stole something from the Parshendi, but now I think that it could be the other way around (the Parshendi stealing from the humans)
5. White Hair - Could this be the royal locks (I see why everyone is suggesting Warbreaker crossovers now). If I remember correctly, the royal locks turn white with fear, a valid emotion when climbing an impossibly tall ("part of the sky","day to climb") wall for the first time.
6. I like the idea of the heralds being involved.
7. Is the story based in fact?  How much is the story based in fact? What actual events lead to the telling/formation of this story and how much does the story differ from the actual event?
8. Is the story foreshadowing for a future event, or a metaphor for character development, as some have suggested?

So there is my two cents on the subject.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

So redefining my theory a little, I wonder if this tidbit from the Eshonai interlude might be relevant to the story. 

Quote

The listeners had learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans, then had figured out the process on their own.

Words of Radiance page 198

 

I also think this section from later might point us in that direction as well. 

Quote

This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather— and he was not one of her people’s gods.In fact, the songs named him a traitor— a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners.

So is it possible that the story is entirely factual? The girl managed to trap the stormfather, a spren, in a gem, and bring Stormlight and the storms across whatever barrier the wall represents?

[Blacksmithki]

@OrangeJedi if you want to delete a post just change it to

Edit: Post deleted

and nothing else (you can do this right? I saw someone else do it)